Ding Dong bin Laden is gone

[BarTopDancer]

Check your favorite news station or website. Reports are he is dead and in US custody.

[RStar]

Strange you should put it that way, 'cause that sceen in the Wizard of Oz was the first thing that popped into my head! I've been signing "Ding Dong, the withch is dead" in my head ever since!

Also seems like a strange place to post this. But maybe that's just me....

[Betty]

someone posted on FB that he was killed a week ago and they've just now been able to confirm it through dna or whatever.

if that's the case, I think back the last week with Obama and the birthers and the trump "roast" and wonder with those things coinciding how it played out.

[LashStoat]

Dearest LOT Friends,

I had today off work, and I never ever watch daytime TV. But for some reason I tuned in during lunch - and saw that Osama Bin Liner has been killed !!!

:snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap:

What that fvcktard did on 9/11 was one of the most hideous crimes in human history.

Go and open a bottle of fizzy...Bear and I would give anything to be with you at this moment of triumph.

:cheers:

Love and hugs,

The Stoat XXX.

[Morrigoon]

From FB: "Osama should never have ordered that iPhone 4"

[Ghoulish Delight]

Obama's speech said he authorize the operation a week ago, but that the actual attack and killing happened today.

The following is a true story. This afternoon Theo, who was in a particularly crabby mood, was rummaging through our junk drawer(s). Normally I'd stop him, but I was sick of arguing with him, so I just let him go. I could hear him behind me digging through things, pulling things out, throwing many things aside. Eventually, he stopped, walked around in front of me and handed me something. It was our deck of terrorist most wanted list cads, the one that was released shortly after 9/11, with Bin Laden as the ace of spades and has sat in our just drawer ever since.

Cue Twilight Zone music.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oops, dial back the coincimeter. I didn't actually open the deck of cards when T handed them to me. It's not a terrorist most wanted, it was an Iraqi most wanted deck, with Sadam as the ace of spades, Bin Laden not included.

[flippyshark]

Damn, that was such a good story till you went and wrecked it with facts.

[flippyshark]

Quirky live moment on feed from ground zero. A couple hoisted the only American flag they had on hand, complete with an image of Marilyn Monroe emblazoned across it. The man who brought it explained that they had bought it recently, having no idea this event would happen, but they grabbed it and brought it along.

Comparing reaction at White House and in NYC, it's visibly more tearful and emotional at ground zero, not surprisingly. I see cheering and shouts of U.S.A. at both, but more bowed heads and moments of quiet in NYC.

[LashStoat]

Oops, dial back the coincimeter. I didn't actually open the deck of cards when T handed them to me. It's not a terrorist most wanted, it was an Iraqi most wanted deck, with Sadam as the ace of spades, Bin Laden not included.

Never mind GD - let's hope the lot of 'em fall like a pack of cards (though the deck might not attract quite as much if you sell it for memorabilia later, and the Chuppa-Chup stains might cause issues).

This rare Stoat sighting was brought to you by...

>His love for all of you<.

The Stoat XXX.

[Strangler Lewis]

Oops, dial back the coincimeter. I didn't actually open the deck of cards when T handed them to me. It's not a terrorist most wanted, it was an Iraqi most wanted deck, with Sadam as the ace of spades, Bin Laden not included.

And the object of the game is to find Jokers of mass destruction, yet the deck does not actually come with any.

[RStar]

And all T wanted was a rousing game of strip poker......

[Ghoulish Delight]

Wow, some dude in the town where the attack happened unwittingly live tweeted the whole thing when he complained about being woken up by a circling helicopter, an explosion, and 4-5 minutes of gunfire. He's become a mini internet celebrity already.

[Capt Jack]

http://i.imgur.com/KDssc.jpg

[Ghoulish Delight]

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/02/87c97e5231065dced26f356a588e896f4ba135f6.jpg

[Ghoulish Delight]

http://robotceleb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-hide-and-seek.jpg

[JWBear]

Love it! :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/02/87c97e5231065dced26f356a588e896f4ba135f6.jpg

[Moonliner]

In addition to bagging bin laden, the Seal team also scored a large cache of hard drives, CD's and DVD's.

Huh. So this guy has been hold up in this house never going outside for the last five or six years. Gee I wonder what type of "data" most of those disks will hold. Straight or gay?

[cirquelover]

I think it will be camels!

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Definitely, positively, absolutely Het porn Moonliner. It'll be particularly kinky stuff, but Bin Laden did not play on my team.

We got Jeffrey Dahmer, the breeders get Bin Laden.

[Moonliner]

Definitely, positively, absolutely Het porn Moonliner. It'll be particularly kinky stuff, but Bin Laden did not play on my team.

We got Jeffrey Dahmer, the breeders get Bin Laden.

Well we got hosed on that one.

And just for the record, I read "breeders" the same way you read "faggots"

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Sarah Palin Credits W For Bin Laden's Death (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/palin-eager-credit-president-bush-death-bin-laden)

[CoasterMatt]

Under the sea
Under the sea
It is a hecka
Long way from Mecca
Take it from me
Down here you won't find no madrassa
That was a sea lion, he ain't Mufassa
Now you are deader
Down where it's wetter
Under the sea!

You gave a bad name to a lot of good Arabs
I can't think of anyone who more deserves crabs
Yes, you were the king of the S.O.B.s
With friends like you, who needs anemones?
Now you're food for a mantis
Right next to Atlantis
Under the sea!

(not my lyrics, but had to share)

[JWBear]

Sarah Palin Credits W For Bin Laden's Death (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/palin-eager-credit-president-bush-death-bin-laden)

What a nasty piece of work she is.

[BarTopDancer]

It was a joint effort across multiple administrations. So logically The Donald should take all the credit.

[Not Afraid]

Sarah Palin Credits W For Bin Laden's Death (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/palin-eager-credit-president-bush-death-bin-laden)

Really, who the fu<k cares? Like it was the doing of one person.

[Strangler Lewis]

As the right vs. left debate's being set up, the issue is to what extent the ultimately useful info came from Gitmo, which the left wanted closed, and how much indiscriminate, speculative torture was used to obtain it.

[scaeagles]

Funny lyrics!

I would say the peope who really deserve the credit will never be known, whether it be the name of the Seal who pulled the trigger and his team, those who planned it, those who monitored the courier, whomever.

[Morrigoon]

True, and sadly we cannot give them the public accolades they deserve because to do so would endanger their lives.

[Strangler Lewis]

Funny lyrics!

I would say the peope who really deserve the credit will never be known, whether it be the name of the Seal who pulled the trigger and his team, those who planned it, those who monitored the courier, whomever.

As long as you say you would give President Bush similarly little credit if this had happened during his presidency.

[Kevy Baby]

As long as you say you would give President Bush similarly little credit if this had happened during his presidency.Not to speak for scaegles, but IMO, his post has NOTHING to do with ANY president.

[Strangler Lewis]

Not speak for scaeagles, but say what you will about his favorite president, he was not afraid to roil the international waters. Nor was W if to less good effect. Obama ordered the assassination of a world leader. Yes, the operation is extraordinarily complicated, but such a decision comes from the president.

And he's killed some pirates.

[JWBear]

Denying Obama any credit for Bin Laden's death is the current Republican meme. Many of those who previously gave him credit have now flip-flopped. It's an amusingly transparent bit of partisanship, and people need to be called out for it whenever it happens.

[BarTopDancer]

SCA's post was referring to the SEAL team - we will never know who actually took part in the operation (nor should we).

I find it amusing that there is all sorts of hubbub about the "non-existent SEAL team" that took out bin Laden. How SEAL Team Six doesn't exist. I completely understand what they mean by a non-existent special ops/black ops team, I'm just amused that they keep talking about it. Haven't they ever read Tom Clancy?

[Kevy Baby]

Not speak for scaeagles, but say what you will about his favorite president, he was not afraid to roil the international waters. Nor was W if to less good effect. Obama ordered the assassination of a world leader. Yes, the operation is extraordinarily complicated, but such a decision comes from the president.

And he's killed some pirates.

Denying Obama any credit for Bin Laden's death is the current Republican meme. Many of those who previously gave him credit have now flip-flopped. It's an amusingly transparent bit of partisanship, and people need to be called out for it whenever it happens.Again: scaeagles's post (IMO) was NOTHING about ANY president: giving or taking away from Obama, George W Bush, or Ronald Reagan. He was (IMO) simply trying to give credit to the SEALs who did the deed. It was Strangler Lewis who tried to make it about a President.

Yes, Obama gave the green light to make it happen and should it have failed, the blame would have been on his shoulders and therefore, he gets credit for the mission's success. But I, like scaeagles, ALSO want to sing the praises of the troops on the ground (as well as the intelligence people, the support crews - such as the crew who was able to fly in a replacement helicopter on a moment's notice when one crashed, even the crews who built the mock-up to run training exercises, et. al.).

[scaeagles]

I went on a self imposed exile for a while. I came back a short while ago. I dare to make a completely innocent post for the first time (in a political thread) since my return and this is what happens. Sigh.

[BarTopDancer]

Pay no attention to the people blinded by their own party politics unable to read without a filter. Most of us understood what you are saying (did you see?!?!?!?! we even pointed it out!!11!1!!!!)

(extra ?!?!?!1111!1!!! added for sh*ts and giggles)

True, and sadly we cannot give them the public accolades they deserve because to do so would endanger their lives.

Not to speak for scaegles, but IMO, his post has NOTHING to do with ANY president.

SCA's post was referring to the SEAL team - we will never know who actually took part in the operation (nor should we).


Again: scaeagles's post (IMO) was NOTHING about ANY president: giving or taking away from Obama, George W Bush, or Ronald Reagan. He was (IMO) simply trying to give credit to the SEALs who did the deed. It was Strangler Lewis who tried to make it about a President.

SNIP

But I, like scaeagles, ALSO want to sing the praises of the troops on the ground (as well as the intelligence people, the support crews - such as the crew who was able to fly in a replacement helicopter on a moment's notice when one crashed, even the crews who built the mock-up to run training exercises, et. al.).

[katiesue]

I think I can safely state that no sitting President has ever taken part in any military operation covert or otherwise while in office. It's not the President's job to take part it's to supervise and make the tough calls. And you get it right you get the kudos, you mess it up you get reprimands. This one sounds like it was a fairly risky call that could have very easily gone south at any point. Why can't we all just say good job all around?

[JWBear]

Pay no attention to the people blinded by their own party politics unable to read without a filter.

Totally unfair and uncalled for. I was making an observation that was related to what Sarah Palin said. I was completely aware of Leo's intent and meaning, and it wasn't directed at him.

[BarTopDancer]

Totally unfair and uncalled for. I was making an observation that was related to what Sarah Palin said. I was completely aware of Leo's intent and meaning, and it wasn't directed at him.

I'm tempted to call this typical backpedaling shenanigans because you're getting called out but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here...

Perhaps you should have quoted the post you were replying to because calling it being the "current Republican meme" knowing SCA and his viewpoints looks an awful lot like directing it at Leo.

[innerSpaceman]

Really? That's a stretch, BTD. Perhaps if you'd been subjected to the disgusting spectacle of Republican political figures falling all over themselves to avoid praising the Obama administration, you would have realized that "Republican meme" refers to Republican operatives and not necessarily rank-and-file voters, whose idiocy has not been on display in the media.

[BarTopDancer]

Really? That's a stretch, BTD. Perhaps if you'd been subjected to the disgusting spectacle of Republican political figures falling all over themselves to avoid praising the Obama administration, you would have realized that "Republican meme" refers to Republican operatives and not necessarily rank-and-file voters, whose idiocy has not been on display in the media.

I know exactly what Republican meme means and if you think I haven't seen the disgusting spectacle you'd be wrong.

Hey, did you hear bin Laden is dead?

[JWBear]

I'm tempted to call this typical backpedaling shenanigans because you're getting called out but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here...

I'm touched by your generosity.

Perhaps you should have quoted the post you were replying to because calling it being the "current Republican meme" knowing SCA and his viewpoints looks an awful lot like directing it at Leo.

I wasn't replying to a post.

[BarTopDancer]

Sarah Palin Credits W For Bin Laden's Death (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/palin-eager-credit-president-bush-death-bin-laden)

What a nasty piece of work she is.

I was making an observation that was related to what Sarah Palin said.

I wasn't replying to a post.

You weren't replying to the link that SM posted? That's the only thing Palin related in here.

And before Steve jumps all over me again I don't consider Palin to be a Republican political figure. I consider her to be white noise in the background and if the media would just ignore her she would go away. Like Trump. Internet trolls come to life.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt even though we've seen it many times before, as recently as another current thread [be inflammatory then feign innocence]. Anyway, I'm done with this 'discussion' of intent. And maybe next time, if you really weren't trying to be inflammatory you'll be clearer in your reference to what you are discussing in mixed company.

[Strangler Lewis]

I went on a self imposed exile for a while. I came back a short while ago. I dare to make a completely innocent post for the first time (in a political thread) since my return and this is what happens. Sigh.

Well returned from exile.

Please to point out the innocent post.

You had the chance to say, "Yes, if this had happened on Reagan's or W's watch, I would have said the people who really deserve credit are the operatives, and I would have said nothing about the president on this major international issue." Your minimization of Obama was straight Rush and the like.

As to the operatives, especially the SEALs, they are awesome and truly deserve our thanks. This is not, however, a particularly deep insight, and having it is not a sign that one's head is bolted on straighter than his (or her) more liberal neighbor's.

Shall I share with you my particular appreciation of the years of training, long hours and sacrifices by the brilliant but underpaid lawyers who drafted every piece of complex federal legislation a president ever took credit for? No? Good.

[scaeagles]

I think from now on I can just refrain from posting and you can write whatever you think I would say, what that really meant, and what I should have said.

I really appreciate how you said it wasn't deep insight. Wow....I thought I was the only person who thought it and figured I should share it with everyone else, knowing everyone else probably wasn't smart enough to have figured that out.

Thank you for your insight, SL. So valuable to me. People like you make this such a great place to post.

[Strangler Lewis]

I probably should have been clearer. The "deep insight" comment was not directed at you but at your defenders who leapt in with "Don't worry, we get it."

And while, yes, you don't have to, you still haven't said if you'd say the same thing if the shoe of killing Osama was on a Republican president's foot.

[Kevy Baby]

And while, yes, you don't have to, you still haven't said if you'd say the same thing if the shoe of killing Osama was on a Republican president's foot.Why does this question need to be answered? Why do you keep insisting on making this a partisan political issue?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Here's SL's point. Many republicans in the media have been pointedly leaving Obama's name out of any accolades and/or invoking Bush's name instead. Purposely trying to avoid giving credit where credit is due to Obama. SL is wondering if scaeagles is doing the same thing. Would his post in response to similar news, had it happened under the last President's term, been similarly devoid of mention of the executive branch, or is that omission reserved for Obama? I think it's a pretty valid question in a climate where explicitly leaving Obama out of the equation is a high profile form of partisan rhetoric being tossed around right now. AND considering that that is precisely what the discussion in the thread right before he posted it was about. There was a link to a public comment that omitted Obama's name, discussion about said omission, then scaeagle's post that omitted Obama's name. Is it really that controversial, in that context to then ask about the omission.

[Betty]

So, to sum it up: I'm right, you're wrong. And you have a little dong. I don't like you. I don't care. You have holes in your underwear. Go away. Leave me alone. Go cry to your Mom on the telephone. :p :D

Everyone needs to lighten up. I don't think you'd act this way in person to each other.

[scaeagles]

And while, yes, you don't have to, you still haven't said if you'd say the same thing if the shoe of killing Osama was on a Republican president's foot.

Not an unreasonable request.

Yes, Obama deserves some credit. He absolutely made the call, as it was his alone to make.

Here's what I liken it to. The Berlin wall fell when GHWBush was President. Did he deserve THE credit? Not all, but some, and there was credit due the previous administration of Reagan and the policies thereof.

I also liken it to Carter and the attempt to rescue the Iranian hostages. This was a little unique in that while he authorized it, he also aborted it mid operation. I think he deserves a lot of blame (more than if the operation had simply failed without his mid operational call to abort it), but not all of it. Should it have worked, he would have deserved some credit, but not all

So if Bush were in office, I do think my reaction would be the same.

I think there is WAY too much short term thinking in politics and the American public in general. Very little on a global scale is the result of the policies of one individual or one event. It is an eviolution of relations and policies and events over time, and FAR too often the blame is pointed at one man or one thing. It should be a view of the macro, not the micro.

[Strangler Lewis]

I would. I would hope we all would (except for the part where people refuse to answer a direct question).

[Strangler Lewis]

Doh!

[Moonliner]

Really? We are arguing over who gets the credit for pre-meditated murder, incursion into a sovereign nation and trampling over the rules of law and justice we as a nation are supposed to stand for?

It's pretty clear that Bush and Obama should share credit for that.

[Strangler Lewis]

Really? We are arguing over who gets the credit for pre-meditated murder, incursion into a sovereign nation and trampling over the rules of law and justice we as a nation are supposed to stand for?

It's pretty clear that Bush and Obama should share credit for that.

Note to self: don't invite Moonliner over to watch "Munich." Or James Bond movies for that matter.

I'm reasonably comfortable thinking that Bin Laden was still "at war" with us, so that this was not a garden variety criminal justice matter.

The prospect of trying Bin Laden would have been a nightmare, even if they agreed from the word go that he would have been tried by a military tribunal. It still would have cost millions of dollars, would have taken years, and he probably would have died before any sentence was carried out.

As for Pakistan, well . . .

[JWBear]

Here's what I liken it to. The Berlin wall fell when GHWBush was President. Did he deserve THE credit? Not all, but some, and there was credit due the previous administration of Reagan and the policies thereof.

A false analogy, IMO. The fall of the Berlin Wall was not a military action directed by a US President. It had very little to do with the US, in fact.

Your comparison to Carter's action in Iran is more apt. The difference is that Obama's succeeded, where Carter's failed.

And I still can't, for the life of me, figure out why Bush should be congratulated for something that the current administration accomplised that he failed to do in his 8 years in office.

[Moonliner]

The prospect of trying Bin Laden would have been a nightmare, even if they agreed from the word go that he would have been tried by a military tribunal. It still would have cost millions of dollars, would have taken years, and he probably would have died before any sentence was carried out.

As for Pakistan, well . . .

I see. So what you are saying is that adhering to Constitution of the United States of America is based on how uncomfortable and/or expensive a particular issue is?

[Ghoulish Delight]

And I still can't, for the life of me, figure out why Bush should be congratulated for something that the current administration accomplised that he failed to do in his 8 years in office.
The intelligence gathering that lead to the eventual discovery of Bin Laden's location began well before Obama took office, to presume that Bush's decisions had nothing to do with it is as inane as presuming that Obama's didn't, or that Clinton was "to blame" for 9/11 for "failing to capture Osama" before Bush. I have no problem with giving Bush credit for the role his orders to the intelligence community played in the long and difficult task.

I see. So what you are saying is that adhering to Constitution of the United States of America is based on how uncomfortable and/or expensive a particular issue is?Bin Laden was a military target who had made it abundantly clear that he would not be taken alive. Given that he had vowed to kill himself before capture, and that his organization is rather fond of taking people out around them when killing themselves, I see no issue with shooting first and asking questions later. It's not murder, it's war. I don't like war, I do not promote war, but when someone starts a war and vows to continue that war, then war-like response is justified.

[scaeagles]

A false analogy, IMO. The fall of the Berlin Wall was not a military action directed by a US President. It had very little to do with the US, in fact.

And I still can't, for the life of me, figure out why Bush should be congratulated for something that the current administration accomplised that he failed to do in his 8 years in office.

Wow....we sure do have a different view of 1980's geopolitics. I, however, view mine as opinion, and you seem to view your opinion as fact. A stark difference.

Both of these issues are matter of opinion, I suppose, and we disagree.

And I do agree with GD on the Constitutional question. It is war. There is also the point that it is widely believed (and I think Panetta even alluded to this) that we were worried that Pakistan would warn OBL. Talk about a fire storm. Can you imagine the outrage if it were discovered Obama had OBL but tipped off people that warned him? Not only would Obama be vilified (and would have been rightfully so - just as he does deserve credit for giving the order), but there would be active calls for war with Pakistan. Yikes.

[Strangler Lewis]

No, I'm saying that's why we would not want to try him.

While we may be bound by various treaties that limit our actions abroad, I don't think there's anything in the Constitution that prevents us from assassinating foreign leaders, or blowing up half the world if we want to.

[JWBear]

The intelligence gathering that lead to the eventual discovery of Bin Laden's location began well before Obama took office, to presume that Bush's decisions had nothing to do with it is as inane as presuming that Obama's didn't, or that Clinton was "to blame" for 9/11 for "failing to capture Osama" before Bush. I have no problem with giving Bush credit for the role his orders to the intelligence community played in the long and difficult task.

I do not agree. Obama made the call, not Bush. Obama would have (rightly) take all the blame if something had gone wrong, and no one would have blamed Bush.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Where did I say Bush gets ALL the credit?

I stand by what I said. Giving no credit to Bush is as inane as giving no credit to Obama.

[JWBear]

Wow....we sure do have a different view of 1980's geopolitics. I, however, view mine as opinion, and you seem to view your opinion as fact. A stark difference.

Both of these issues are matter of opinion, I suppose, and we disagree.

It sure sounded like you were stating it as fact to me.

Here's what I liken it to. The Berlin wall fell when GHWBush was President. Did he deserve THE credit? Not all, but some, and there was credit due the previous administration of Reagan and the policies thereof.

Communism was already on it's last legs when Reagan took office. The soviets simply could not compete with the western world. It would have collapsed regardless of who the president was.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I think there is WAY too much short term thinking in politics and the American public in general. Very little on a global scale is the result of the policies of one individual or one event. It is an eviolution of relations and policies and events over time, and FAR too often the blame is pointed at one man or one thing. It should be a view of the macro, not the micro.

I'm with you here. I think we get too caught up in simplifying things, so that we can get a handle on them, and forget that it's more complicated.

[JWBear]

Where did I say Bush gets ALL the credit?

I never said you did. I just don't think Bush deserves any of the credit if he wouldn't have gotten any of the blame if something went wrong.

I stand by what I said. Giving no credit to Bush is as inane as giving no credit to Obama.

And I stand by my opinion that it is inane to give Bush credit. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I never said you did. I just don't think Bush deserves any of the credit if he wouldn't have gotten any of the blame if something went wrong.
If what went wrong had nothing to do with him, then he wouldn't deserve any of the blame. If everything happened exactly the same, but Obama, 5 minutes before the operation, called Bin Laden on his satellite phone, then Obama would deserve 100% of the blame. Period. You are assuming symmetry in an equation where there is no symmetry.

If it can be shown that none of the information that was used to find Bin Laden came as a result of Bush's policies and decisions, that everything happened only as a result of Obama's actions, then he would deserve no credit. But considering that knowledge of the compound by the CIA happened in 2005, and information on the courier brothers that lead to that knowledge came before that, I have a hard time understanding how Obama would deserve 100% of the credit.

Yes, if you narrow everything down to JUST the act of making the final decision, Obama deserves 100% of the credit for that. But that is an absurd view of the situation that would also remove all credit from anyone else involved. The intelligence community, the Navy Seals, etc. Once you start properly crediting everyone involved in the entire, 10-year long process, it's ridiculous to say that Bush cannot be credited with helping set things in motion.

[innerSpaceman]

What does anyone make of the reported opportunities Bush had to capture or kill Osama, but neglected or purposefully failed to take?

Sorry for the polemic, but they are briefly detailed here (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/05/03/bush-saved-osama-bin-laden-at-least-twice/) for anyone not familiar. There was, of course, Tora Bora where we had him cornered under Bush, and the Taliban offer to hand him over, which Bush rejected.


Assuming the truth of those, I would not give Bush one iota of credit for Bin Laden's killing. I'm just not sure how black & white those events were. And personally, I'm not really interested in who gets credit or blame. The whole political spin is just absurd and beyond insulting.


My only concern for "using" this Bin Laden's death to further a cause is to promote ending the longest war in American history.


It seems to be pretty clear Bin Laden's main strategy was to bankrupt the superpowers by luring the stupid, blundering giants into wars in Afghanistan and bleed them dry as the sand and rock they foolishly fought for. Succeeded brilliantly with the Soviet Union. Not too shabby with the United States.

Can we stop now?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I have very little confidence that those incidents are true.


And personally, I'm not really interested in who gets credit or blame. The whole political spin is just absurd and beyond insulting.
Agreed. But to that end, if someone is going to respond to the political bullsht of not acknowledging Obama's role with political bullsht of not acknowledging Bush's role, I'm going to call it bullsht.

[Not Afraid]

Why is everyone acting as if things happen in a vacuum with only one person in it? This was a VERY LONG group effort with many people, of many political persuasions, taking part.

[Morrigoon]

Let's just go back to being glad he's gone. And now let's work on ending this stupid war.

[Strangler Lewis]

Bush knew where Bin Laden was for years but did not take him out because of his family's ties to the Bin Laden family. Obama has known since his first day in office but waited for the right moment, that being after his release of a doctored birth certificate.

There. No president deserves any credit.

[Moonliner]

Bush knew where Bin Laden was for years but did not take him out because of his family's ties to the Bin Laden family. Obama has known since his first day in office but waited for the right moment, that being after his release of a doctored birth certificate.

There. No president deserves any credit.

But how does Trump and Area-51 fit in?

[Capt Jack]

...and on the lighter side

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/05/04/gal_meme_12.jpg

[scaeagles]

Certain things about the situation I find odd. Not the operation, but the enviroment in which OBL was living.

First of all, I find it hilarious that where he was living has been described as a mansion. Perhaps in comparison to a cave or the other homes, but i don't really look at it as I would a mansion.

Secondly, apparently he was growing marijuana.

Third, any soccer ball kicked over the fence by neighborhood children wasn't returned, but the children would be given cash as compensation.

Lastly, OBL was breeding bunnies and giving them away to people in the neighborhood.

I suppose any or all of those may not be true, but i have heard them reported.

[scaeagles]

Communism was already on it's last legs when Reagan took office. The soviets simply could not compete with the western world. It would have collapsed regardless of who the president was.

Perhaps, but not in the time frame it did. It was only Reagan, but other leaders of the time, including Lady Thatcher and Pope John Paul.

Kennedy deserves some credit for having the cajones he did during the Cuban Missile crisis. Hell, OBL does too, as ISM alluded to earlier. I would argue that Carter did everything he could to prop them up, but that's a different matter all together. I find the history of the collapse a very interesting one.

[JWBear]

You failed to mention the very significant role played be the people living in those communist countries; including some of their leaders. It was a combination of internal and external factors, not just the external ones, that led to the collapse.

Exactly how did Carter prop up communism?

[innerSpaceman]

I suppose any or all of those may not be true, but i have heard them reported.
Gee, scaeagles, might that be from any of the (even "mainstream") news sources who said it was 3 copters, then 4, then 2, then 2 with 2 backup, then wife killed, then wife injured, then courier's wife killed, then courier killed, then courier injured, then 8-foot high walls, then 18-foot high with razor wire, etc., etc?

it's an evolving news story where none of the basics about the actual operation have been gotten right YET by a major news organization, and you are giving credence to 'reports' that he gives stoned bunny rabbits to neighborhood kids instead of returning their soccer balls?! Puleaze!

[scaeagles]

Exactly how did Carter prop up communism?

By allowing our military to decay in the fashion in which it decayed. He also allowed the sale of very high tech (for the day) mainframe computers to the Soviets. He did nothing except react with shock that the leaders of the Soviets invaded Afghanistan a couple of months after meetings in which he hugged and kissed them and called them friends. He appeased their every move. The list of his foreign policy snafus is endless when related to the Soviets.

[scaeagles]

Gee, scaeagles, might that be from any of the (even "mainstream") news sources who said it was 3 copters, then 4, then 2, then 2 with 2 backup, then wife killed, then wife injured, then courier's wife killed, then courier killed, then courier injured, then 8-foot high walls, then 18-foot high with razor wire, etc., etc?

it's an evolving news story where none of the basics about the actual operation have been gotten right YET by a major news organization, and you are giving credence to 'reports' that he gives stoned bunny rabbits to neighborhood kids instead of returning their soccer balls?! Puleaze!

Good LORD!!!!!!!!!!! Lighten up. I posted those simply for amusement. I think you need to pull out a little weed and mellow out a bit.

[innerSpaceman]

How dare you say that to me!




:p

[BarTopDancer]

First of all, I find it hilarious that where he was living has been described as a mansion. Perhaps in comparison to a cave or the other homes, but i don't really look at it as I would a mansion.

McMansion. If you compare it to the rest of the homes in the neighborhood it was very much a mansion in the area.

Third, any soccer ball kicked over the fence by neighborhood children wasn't returned, but the children would be given cash as compensation.
Jon Stewart said it so it must be true.

Lastly, OBL was breeding bunnies and giving them away to people in the neighborhood.
Anyone who gives away bunnies can't be that bad. :p Were they Cadbury bunnies?

[Kevy Baby]

Everyone needs to lighten up. I don't think you'd act this way in person to each other.I'm worse in person!

I suppose any or all of those may not be true, but I have heard them reported.I think I'm going to start making sh!t up.

OBL was sponsoring a child in Outer Mongolia for just $0.79 a day!

[BarTopDancer]

#notintendedtobeafactualstatement

[Not Afraid]

I thought he sponsored livestock through Heifer International.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I think you mean Porker International(PI) (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/PI/)

[Not Afraid]

I like the word heifer. I think I'll have to use it more often.

[JWBear]

I like the word heifer. I think I'll have to use it more often.

You might get flak from the People Of Mass community.

[Morrigoon]

Only when used in reference to people of mass

[JWBear]

Well, one certainly wouldn't use it in reference to the width challenged; unless one was being ironic.

[Snowflake]

Well, one certainly wouldn't use it in reference to the width challenged; unless one was being ironic.

"With me there is no sideways" Ernestina Schumann-Heink

[BarTopDancer]

...and he thinks you're fat.

[Betty]

I don't agree with terrorists hurting people.

Having said that - Why do they hate us so much? Is it because we've gone into their country over oil and they don't like that? I'm trying to see things from the other point of view. There were people that thought OBL was a hero. Why?

[Ghoulish Delight]

That's a question that takes 6000 years to answer. To reduce down to "because we want their oil" or "because our religions are different" or "because we love freedom" or "because we invaded their country" is meaningless. Because, objectively, there is NO explanation on the scale of the actions of our country and culture over the last 10, 15, 20, 50, 200 years that can possibly explain the deeply ingrained animosity that exists. It's born from millennia of history that is near impossible to untangle.

[Snowflake]

That's a question that takes 6000 years to answer. To reduce down to "because we want their oil" or "because our religions are different" or "because we love freedom" or "because we invaded their country" is meaningless. Because, objectively, there is NO explanation on the scale of the actions of our country and culture over the last 10, 15, 20, 50, 200 years that can possibly explain the deeply ingrained animosity that exists. It's born from millennia of history that is near impossible to untangle.

In a nutshell, we're fvcked, right? ;)

[JWBear]

And it's not just religion. There's a lot of Arab/Mid-Eastern culture involved. You don't find it to the same level in the non Mid-Eastern Muslim countries.

[BarTopDancer]

Because we support Israel.

[JWBear]

Because we support Israel.

While that is certainly a factor, I goes way deeper than that.

[Betty]

That's a question that takes 6000 years to answer. To reduce down to "because we want their oil" or "because our religions are different" or "because we love freedom" or "because we invaded their country" is meaningless. Because, objectively, there is NO explanation on the scale of the actions of our country and culture over the last 10, 15, 20, 50, 200 years that can possibly explain the deeply ingrained animosity that exists. It's born from millennia of history that is near impossible to untangle.

So they hated us 200 years ago? and 100 years ago? and 30 years ago - for the same reason they hate us today? Because we weren't involved in oil there 150 years ago? Right? I understand that it's involved many issues and it's not a simple thing... it just seems like there should be a way to stay the eff out of each others way and live our lives. Don't go poking things with a stick and all. Now that he's dead, we can leave, right?

[katiesue]

This book (http://www.amazon.com/Desert-Queen-Extraordinary-Gertrude-Adventurer/dp/0385495757/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304616831&sr=8-4) has a lot of interesting information about the forming of the states in the Middle East and how the lines were basically drawn in the sand separating tribes and throwing together age old enemies.

There are a billion factors that go into why they dislike "us" and some have evolved over time and some are still the same.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I think part of it is because some of the people believe that all people must be converted to Islam. That no infidels must be allowed. Who are they to enforce orthodoxy? But they do somehow feel it is their duty.

I think some of it is born of insecurity- if there are other choices for religions, they can't feel as secure in their choice. If there is only one, they know they're doing it right. I think a lot of things boil down this way- that people don't want to have to make a choice, because they might make the "wrong" choice.

I think some of it is that Western civilizations have a lot of temptation, for people who are forbidden alcohol, the freedom of women, etc. I'm wondering if this taps into the dissatisfaction of some people with their religion- they follow it, but they don't really want to. In an area where there is no other choice, the path is clear. But once you know other things are possible.... and you want them...

And the people don't want to recognize the dissatisfaction. So you wipe out the temptation, and supposedly your people will be happy again. Doesn't work that way, but I think that's the plan.

Other factors tie into why they hate us.

[Moonliner]

Ten years down the road from 9/11 and what is Al-Qaida up to?

Procuring small yield nuclear weapons from the ex-soviet union?

Running bio-weapons labs to create their own weapons of mass destruction?

Training vast legions of operatives how to bring down airplanes using only shoelaces and a hair comb?

Nope.

Their great plan is Train Tipping (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110506/D9N1QA080.html). And even that was just day dreaming.

I think we need to revoke their "Terrorist" card and issue them "Vandal" cards instead.

[JWBear]

I think part of it is because some of the people believe that all people must be converted to Islam. That no infidels must be allowed. Who are they to enforce orthodoxy? But they do somehow feel it is their duty.

I think some of it is born of insecurity- if there are other choices for religions, they can't feel as secure in their choice. If there is only one, they know they're doing it right. I think a lot of things boil down this way- that people don't want to have to make a choice, because they might make the "wrong" choice.

I think some of it is that Western civilizations have a lot of temptation, for people who are forbidden alcohol, the freedom of women, etc. I'm wondering if this taps into the dissatisfaction of some people with their religion- they follow it, but they don't really want to. In an area where there is no other choice, the path is clear. But once you know other things are possible.... and you want them...

And the people don't want to recognize the dissatisfaction. So you wipe out the temptation, and supposedly your people will be happy again. Doesn't work that way, but I think that's the plan.

Other factors tie into why they hate us.



Everything you just said can also be applied to some Christians and Jews... Or, for that matter, fanatic followers of any religion.

[Not Afraid]

I think religion should be outlawed world-wide. It would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it?

[JWBear]

Humanity would just find something else to kill each other over.

[alphabassettgrrl]

True- radicals of all stripes tend to follow the same patterns.

[scaeagles]

Everything you just said can also be applied to some Christians and Jews... Or, for that matter, fanatic followers of any religion.

This is true, but I think (note the word think - not stating anything as fact because I have no data to back it up. it's opinion) the difference is that this behavior is encouraged by a large portion of the Islamic community. Not saying a majority, but a large portion.

While there are radical groups within any religion, it seems to be most supported and widespread within Islam.

[JWBear]

This is true, but I think (note the word think - not stating anything as fact because I have no data to back it up. it's opinion) the difference is that this behavior is encouraged by a large portion of the Islamic community. Not saying a majority, but a large portion.

While there are radical groups within any religion, it seems to be most supported and widespread within Islam.

I'm not so sure that this isn't just what we are being fed by the media. Remember, not all Muslims are Arabs, not even a majority of them.

On the other hand, the silence coming from mainstream American Christians regarding their most violently fundimentalist bretheren is deafening.

[scaeagles]

On the other hand, the silence coming from mainstream American Christians regarding their most violently fundimentalist bretheren is deafening.

Ummm....I'm truthfully not trying to be ignorant here. Abortion clinic bombings and death threats against abortion doctors are condemned, and I haven't heard of a bombing in ages. I'm trying to think (seriously) of other widepsread violence out there. Maybe this is what you are referring to - that it just doesn't come out in the media? But in terms of scope, I figure I'd hear about it if it were something on the scale of 9/11 (duh) and even other smaller acts, such as embassey bombings and the like.

[BarTopDancer]

Aside from the idiocy being spewed by religious talking heads wanna be Republican candidates/pundits I haven't heard of any asinine acts being done in the name of Christianity. I can't remember the last time I heard of an abortion clinic bombing.

[JWBear]

Ummm....I'm truthfully not trying to be ignorant here. Abortion clinic bombings and death threats against abortion doctors are condemned, and I haven't heard of a bombing in ages. I'm trying to think (seriously) of other widepsread violence out there. Maybe this is what you are referring to - that it just doesn't come out in the media? But in terms of scope, I figure I'd hear about it if it were something on the scale of 9/11 (duh) and even other smaller acts, such as embassey bombings and the like.

Sure, the individual acts of Christian terrorism are decried, when they happen. But, how many mainstream Christian leaders speak out regularly against their fellow Christians who preach hate and intollerance? Not very many. By their silence they condone and support those fanatics, even if they do not mean to.

[JWBear]

Aside from the idiocy being spewed by religious talking heads wanna be Republican candidates/pundits I haven't heard of any asinine acts being done in the name of Christianity. I can't remember the last time I heard of an abortion clinic bombing.

It's not very frequent, but it happens. And there are groups that have the potential to be very violent in the name of Christianity (Hutaree, anyone?) Just google "Christian Patriots" and "Christian Identity".

[CoasterMatt]

Somebody tried to take my bacon, and I was ready to stab them through the heart with my cereal spoon. People will always find reasons to kill.

[Betty]

yes - but it was over bacon so it's okay. MFers should know better than to mess with bacon-ny goodness. Wait - what thread is this?

[Kevy Baby]

Brooklyn Hasidic paper Der Zeitung cuts Sec. of State Hillary Clinton out of Bin Laden raid photo

Read more (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/05/09/2011-05-09_brooklyn_hasidic_paper_der_tzitung_cuts_sec_of_ state_hillary_clinton_out_of_bin_.html#ixzz1Lt7RTV C6)

A shot of the photo:
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/05/10/alg_hillary-clinton_after.jpg

Compared to:

http://personalshoplifter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-obama-war-room.jpg

[Ghoulish Delight]

They also cut the female staffer in the back out.

[Strangler Lewis]

As if we needed further proof that the Taliban do not share our values.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The paper has responded, saying they just shouldn't have printed the photo at all. And that, as a rule, never print any photos of women...which does not indicate any lower status for women.

Of course, as absurd as that sounds, in their minds it's true, because the whole mindset behind the separation of men and women in orthodox judaism is that men are incapable of not being distracted by women, so, to be sure that men can continue to operate at peek efficiency, they need to be protected from exposure to women at all costs.

Yes, I'm serious.

Of course, while they are busy thinking that they're not denigrating women because, really, it's a commentary on how fallible men are, they are missing the fact that it rather does denigrate women since it says that everything must be structured around making sure that MEN are able to work without distraction, lest society fall apart. Because clearly without clear-headed men, society couldn't possibly operate.

[Strangler Lewis]

And the Taliban are to the same effect: they're actually protecting women from committing the crime of being raped.

The only man with a big beard and a funny outfit that I trust is Brian Wilson, and that can change at a moment's notice.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Weird. I'm so glad I live here.

[Morrigoon]

Now translate that to when a government says it's protecting its people by taking away their freedoms...

[Betty]

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

[Alex]

I saved so much time and effort and correcting wrong people on the internet by being on vacation the last week or so.

[Moonliner]

Told ya so.

Pornography found in bin Laden hideout. (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-pornography-found-bin-laden-hideout-officials-162214194.html)


A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. commandos who killed him, current and former U.S. officials said on Friday.

The pornography recovered in bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity.

[€uroMeinke]

Told ya so.

Pornography found in bin Laden hideout. (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-pornography-found-bin-laden-hideout-officials-162214194.html)

That's pretty impressive considering his house had no Internet connection. I guess he had specialized porn curriers.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Of course, in his culture a Burlington Coat Factory ad can be counted as porn.

[Alex]

I'm thinking that being a porn currier would be a more interesting line of business than being a porn courier.

[BarTopDancer]

So he was a uberreligious Republican Senator? Next we'll hear it's gay porn and he has an underage courier "on the side".

[scaeagles]

Bin Laden checking out porn while militant Islamists beat women for not wearing birkas (or however you spell it). Gotta love the contrast.

[€uroMeinke]

Bin Laden checking out porn while militant Islamists beat women for not wearing birkas (or however you spell it). Gotta love the contrast.

Oh I'm sure there was beating involved with the porn as well

[BarTopDancer]

Disney trademarks "Seal Team 6" (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-20062914-10391698.html).

This could also fit under WTF.

[Not Afraid]

At the Knitters concert on Friday, John Doe started out the song "The Call of the Wrecking Ball" by making jokes about Wrecking Ball being on Seal Team #7 whose mission is searching for Charlie Sheen. :)