The 2016 Election

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I'm still stunned. I've been disappointed at elections before (I'm looking at you Prop H8!), but never to this degree.

What have we done...? What the flying fü©ķ have we done!?!

[Ghoulish Delight]

Right there with you.

**** this.

@scaeagles - what say you if you're around?

[Gn2Dlnd]

Terrifying in its implications. If he runs his office the way he ran his campaign (and why wouldn't he?), we're ****ed.

[Gn2Dlnd]

Really? I forgot about the filter. We're fvcked.

[RStar]

This is the most frightening thing I have seen in a long time. It could quite literally be apocalyptic. Or highly amusing. Only time will tell.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

A "man" (using that term loosely) with no self-control is going to have access to the nuclear codes. :eek:

[RStar]

A "man" (using that term loosely) with no self-control is going to have access to the nuclear codes. :eek:

Yes, but he can't launch anything by himself. I just hope the people around him have the ability to keep Trumphat in check.

[scaeagles]

@scaeagles - what say you if you're around?

Someone told me my name came up....since I hadn't logged in since July and there were only 45 new posts, I'm thinking it might be a LONG time till anyone reads this.

I can completely understand all of the reactions you are having. Good lord knows that should Hillary have won I would be expressing the same sentiments.

Trump wasn't my first choice in the Republican primary. I wonder if you can figure out who my top five were. I'll give a hint - Trump was in my top five. I'll come back in a few days to see if anyone has read this or bothered to take a stab at it. If you don't know who my top choice was, well....you never knew me very well. :)

The government is broken. I could list all the reasons that I believe why, which would vary from yours. I could list all of the reasons that I think Trump was preferable to Clinton, and you could do the same for Clinton over Trump, and we could talk about why I hate her and you hate him and what we fear that each others preference would do.....but the fact is that Trump is NOT responsible for anything broken in government. He hasn't been in government. Lobbied, made deals with government, yeah....but he didn't break anything. I think it is time that someone who hasn't made politics a career be given a shot to fix it.

I do not like the direction of the last eight years. Obama preached hope and change, and I think most of the hope and change that was desired by many was not realized. I, personally, am looking forward to the changes coming. I have my apprehensions indeed. But I am certain that whatever Trump has to offer will be preferable to me to what Clinton would have, and hopefully will be a correction to what I regard as horrible domestic and foreign policy over the last eight years.

[Ghoulish Delight]

So let's talk appointments.

[Ghoulish Delight]

And while we're at it, let's talk reckless tweeting threatening the stock of a major American employer. Reckless foreign policy moves clearly made out of ignorance. Reckless undermining of the Democratic process with unfounded lies about fraud. Empty repudiation of a neo-Nazi movement while maintaining one of their figureheads as his adviser. Empty smoke screen of firing Flynn's SON for tweeting stupid dangerous conspiracy theories, but keeping Flynn who ALSO tweeted the SAME stupid dangerous conspiracy theory. Appointment of mortgage-exchange billionaire to oversee our economy. To name just the absurd bull**** I can come up with off the top of my head. Too much to remember it all easily.

And we're only at week -7 of his reign.

Trump is a child with no moral center. His only goal is self aggrandizement and he's handing out favor and power to anyone who will stroke his ego. His "nationalism" extends only as far as it profits him (either economically or in TV ratings), and as he's already telegraphing a 'leadership' style which will be all about enjoying the center-ring in the circus while passing off as much actual work as possible to other people. People who have outrageous agendas that explicitly reject rational thought and empirical data since anyone who doesn't fit that description has no desire to feed his delusion.

[scaeagles]

Hillary has a moral center. But it's not a center on the good side.

[RStar]

Trump is a child with no moral center. His only goal is self aggrandizement and he's handing out favor and power to anyone who will stroke his ego.

I admit this is my opinion of him. This was the first election that I did not vote Republican. I think of a spoiled rich kid who grew up longing for the approval of his absentee father. Then, after being on the top of his own corporate ladder for so long, he hungered for more power and gave this politics thing a shot. Everyone laughed and didn't take it seriously, and now he's got what he wanted, *shudder*... the most powerful man in the world.

I only hope and pray that I'm wrong.

[Ghoulish Delight]

FFS scaeagles, that's it? Seriously? "Hilary is evil" is it? Because what, Paul Ryan, the spineless wonder, is some great paragon of political morality? Or Jeb? Or any of them?

Grow up. Stop getting fooled by the Clinton mythology sold by the right for 30 years. She's a politician with 30 years of high-profile power positions - she's done the things a politician in that position do. And yes, many of those things suck. But she's not alone. She's not uniquely evil. She's not some exceptionally bad actor. I think you know I'm not one to play this "card" lightly - but a man with her experience and track record doesn't engender a FRACTION of the scorn and scrutiny that she has. Her "reputation" is so transparently the result of the ease of selling the story that a woman is conniving and deceitful, and out to trick you it's pathetic.


You disagree with her politics. Fine. You're unhappy with the pervasive accepted corruption that is baked into politics top to bottom, in both parties. Fine. So am I. But this is the alternative? Megalomania and neo-Naziism? This isn't a course correction, this is slamming the boat into the rocks.

I really wish NPR hadn't just reminded me of Silvio Beerlusconi. It's not making my day better.

[scaeagles]

I don't recall praising anyone. I don't believe Hillary is evil, but I don't believe she has anything close to good morals.

Grow up? As if I'm some sort of preadolescent idiot who can't determine what is right or wrong? I believe you, sir, are the one throwing a child like temper tantrum when you have spoken much more harshly of Trump than I have of Clinton, and dare I say have bought into the prominent left-wing rhetoric regarding Trump, and he has yet to do anything official (though I won't dispute his Boeing comments were out of line).

Clinton mythology? Private email server regarding which she lied repeatedly, all of the improprieties of her foundation, her pathetic foreign policy with regard to the middle east....the list is endless.

I get that you don't like Trump. I don't like Clinton. And the country is pretty divided as to which is preferred (though I will point out that an ABC favorability poll shows him at 50% now, so obviously he is winning people over). But get over the "grow up" crap that reminds me more of the trolls that existed on fabs board (was that the name?) than the reasonable discussion that used to exist in this forum. Be ashamed.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I am ashamed. Ashamed of an electorate that's willing to overlook racism, misogyny, xenophobia, and cavalier threats nuclear action for the mythical promise of factory jobs and tax cuts for the rich.

[Ghoulish Delight]

you're acting like this is just some "two sides of the same coin" garbage. Nope. Trump is not just the usual "lesser of two evils" political pendulum crap. Trump, and the people he's surrounded himself with, have publicly, explicitly, and unashamedly promoted dangerous ideas that denigrate the humanity of vast swaths of the population.

His "populism" is exactly why I've grown up learning about the Holocaust so I can be on the lookout for it. And I'm not going to just be quiet and "see what happens" or "give him a chance." They don't get a chance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

And let me be clear, it's BARELY* about Trump at this point. It's a bout who Trump has chosen to represent and whom he's allowed to have a 'legitimate' voice in this country. Trump is a shell that recklessly rode a wave of white nationalism to this position. As a political individual, I don't care what he does or doesn't believe. What I care about is the "platform" (Bannon's word) his team has given to hate filled racists.



* Not to underplay the danger he himself represents from a diplomacy perspective. But that would be tolerable if it weren't for the team of conspirators he's surrounded himself with that will do nothing to reign his ineptness in.

[scaeagles]

I am not at all surprised by our completely differing point of view. I am mortified by the dangerous foreign policy exhibited by Clinton during her tenure as the Secretary of State and what would certainly have been a continuation of current Obama foreign policy. I am mortified by inept domestic policy of the last eight years, seeing the national debt double in that time span and observing government involvement in health care resulting in tremendous cost increases and broken promises, and that spending and those policies would surely continue under Clinton (I admit and hang my head that the Republicans are complicit in each of those things as well....again, this is not a Republican-Democrat thing, as I am moving more and more toward Libertarianism over time). This is why my top choices were three political novices and two relative new comers in the Senate. The system is broken, polluted by self serving politicians who desire clinging to their power more than doing what is right. You regard Trump as crashing the boat on the rocks, as you put it, but there is plenty of evidence that the ship has been there for quite a while.

[Ghoulish Delight]

We're talking "I disagree with her politics and economic theories" vs. "He has shown disregard for basic human decency." Trump's base racism and misogyny should be outright disqualifiers for the position he's been given. It's sickening that they are not and sickening that half the electorate prioritizes a few percentage points of their tax dollars over the dignity and safety of fellow humans.

[Ghoulish Delight]

As for the nonsense that Obama has been ruining our economy for 8 years (and by extension that Hillary Clinton will continue to...becaues Bill, or something):

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/15/grading-the-obama-economy-by-the-numbers.html


At WORST it's stagnant, but the overall picture is an IMPROVED economy since he took office at a point where the economy was in the tank and headed downward. Yes, there's some mixed stuff in there, and not everything he did was perfect - but this picture you paint of Obama steering us into the rocks is absolutely nonsense and unsupported by the facts.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

If we want to continue the boat on the rocks metaphor, maybe Clinton would have continued to play make-believe captain on the grounded boat, maybe she would have tried to patch one of the smaller holes, I don't know. But Drumph is taking a sledgehammer to the boat, grinding up the planks into sawdust, then selling it to his adoring lapdogs as the greatest dog food ever. And if their blind admiration is any indication, they're going to gobble it up like it's manna from heaven.

Drumph is a bullsh¡t artist of the highest tier. He's a narcissist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder). He's a spoiled little man-boy who's in way over his head. And why is every one of his cabinet choices a homophobe? Is Mike "reparative therapy for queers" Pence picking all of Drumph's nominations?

Drain the swamp my ass! He's taking a giant piss in the swamp and telling people it's lemonade.

For the record, I did not vote for Clinton. I may not be a big fan of hers, but I would have preferred her over the whiny hate-monger 'murica elected.

[scaeagles]

It's not simply policy. I am not blinded to Trump's moral failings, and I am not blinded to Clinton's moral failings either. So with two horribly flawed candidates, as I think we can all agree to, we will each choose the one we view as closer to adopting the policies we might like to see in our country.

I'm not looking to turn this into a debate over Obama, because we will never come to an agreement, but I do certainly respect the article you posted.

Hillary's gross dishonesty is a complete disqualifier for her to be given the Presidency. Her mishandling of classified information and lying about it should disqualify her from even possessing a security clearance. I don't believe Hillary is a racist, but she has certainly said things that should Trump (or any Republican) have said them would be front page news along with the other things he has said (I don't believe Trump is a racist either). Super-predators, joking about Ghandi owning a gas station, has said she is against illegal immigration and voted for a wall (which I think has qualified Trump as a racist), colored people time skit, etc. Again, I don't think she's a racist. Her campaign against Obama was the beginning of the birther movement, and her campaign circulated photos of Obama in Islamic style clothing. Campaign rhetoric. She isn't a racist.

Misogyny? I'm still out on that one. Yes, he has said some horrible things. No doubt. in fact I nearly abstained from voting because of them. However, in practice, he has promoted women in his companies and paid them very well, much better than Hillary's record shows in regards to her foundation http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/21/news/clinton-paid-women-less/.

Go ahead and throw stats at me - I fully expect it - but I can find stats and you can find stats and we can each make them support our arguments. Such is the nature of statistics.

So, we both agree he has flawed character. I won't dispute. I don't see them to the degree that you do but they are there. I would suspect that Bill Clinton has said things (and done things) far worse than Trump and I didn't like Bill at all, so I get where you are.

I'd like to see how things play out. I'm excited about many of his appointments. I will say I'm not understanding the talk of the Exxon CEO as Secretary of State, but at this point that is certainly just a rumor.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

As a member of the Queer community, I am terrified--I'm not using the word flippantly--about most (all?) of his proposed cabinet. We fought hard to meek out marriage equality and other important protections. Drumph and Pence (especially the latter) seem hell-bent on marginalizing or even wiping Queers off the map.

[scaeagles]

I don't mean this rhetorically....I really am curious. At the convention, Trump said this -

"Only weeks ago, in Orlando, Fla., 49 wonderful Americans were savagely murdered by an Islamic terrorist,” Trump said. “This time, the terrorist targeted the LGBTQ community. No good, and we’re going to stop it. As your president, I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology. Believe me."

Do believe that was just for show? And if so, why would it be for show at the Republican convention?

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Do I believe that was just for show? Yes.
I don't think Drumph gives a sh¡t about what happened in Orlando. I don't think he's glad it happened (unlike Pence, who I'm sure got a chubbie when he heard 49 fags got murdered), I just don't think Drumph cares one way or the other.

Why would Drumph make those comments at the RNC? Because he can spin it as anti-Muslim hate-speech.

Having said all that, I could rather easily be convinced Drumph is not personally homophobic. I think he's homo-apathetic. But holy fückballs, the team he's assembling certainly is homophobic! Seeing how nominee after nominee is anti-queer makes me wonder if Pence is whispering in Drumph's ear for these noms.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

for reference: No LGBT Ally Would Appoint This Cabinet (http://www.advocate.com/politics/2016/12/05/no-lgbt-ally-would-appoint-cabinet)

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Scaeagles, do you see why LGBT folk may be more than a little concerned?

And with all the Alt-White Supremacist folk Drumph is nominating, do you see why other minorities may be worried?

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Anyone else feeling queasy right now?

[RStar]

Yeah, it started a couple months ago and has been slowly getting worse....

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Or to use the new vernacular newspeak, it's been getting Alt Better.
:rolleyes:

[RStar]

Just the alternate facts, man. The alternate facts....