What is racism?

[scaeagles]

I am not interested in a dictionary definition.

In AZ, we passed Prop 200 last November. What this ballot initiative did was to put into law that to receive anything other than emergency services, everyone must present proof of citizenship. Any social services, enrollment in school, etc. This has been called "racist" by some local Hispanic leaders, and they have called for boycotts of AZ until it is repealed.

I don't think it's racist to deny illegal aliens everything but emergency services.

Vincente Fox, el Presidente of Mexico, recently said that "Hispanics do the jobs not even blacks are willing to do." Is this racist?

Howard Dean said at some recent rally "The only way republicans could have this many blacks at a rally is if they brought in the entire hotel staff." Is that racist?

Is using the "N" word in and of itself make you a racist? When Robert Byrd used the word a couple of times during an interview, was he being a racist? Was Chirs Dodd racist for praising Byrd a few weeks later?

Was Trent Lott a racist because he praised Strom Thurmond at a party in his honor?

I think the term "racist" is overused in a political context and therefore cheapens true racism when it occurs. This is not to say that none of the above items are racist in nature. Maybe some are. But isn't it overdone a bit?

I'm about as much of a WASP as you can be (is that a racist term?), so maybe I just don't understand.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm not certain about anything any more. But I think everyone's a little bit racist. Like it says in the song from Avenue Q:

"Everyone's a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race."

[wendybeth]

I haven't read the actual Prop you speak of, but if it specifically states "Hispanics', then perhaps it could be considered racist. It sounds like it's intended to strengthen and enforce illegal immigration law, so what's the problem? The very fact that the term 'illegal alien' exists indicates that the person is in our country illegally, and in post 9/11 it is very foolish not to have stringent regulations. What's more, our resources are at the breaking point, especially in the border states. No wonder Fox wants us to allow illegal immigration- he doesn't have to pay for them, and they send money home to be spent locally.

I think what Fox said was very offensive, and simply untrue. He defended it by saying it was a common perception in Hispanic (particularily Mexican) culture. That doesn't make it right. We have lots of misconceptions in our country with regards to people of different races and cultures, and yet when a person (usually a politician) makes a comment or commits an action that plays into those misconceptions, they are generally called on it.

I think racism is the intentional persecution or harassment of person from a different race or culture, and it goes both ways. All races are guilty of it, and it is (and probably always will be ) an ongoing battle to define and suppress it wherever it rears it's ugly head.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Everything's about context. For example:

Presidente Fox's comments were a reference to the stereotype that Meixcans hold of blacks as hard workers. "He works like a black man" is a common saying in Mexico. So while even "positive" stereotyping has its pitfalls, I don't consider his comments particularly mallicious.

Compare that to Galloway's use of "Zionist" and "fundamental Christians." He pointedly meant those as insults. A far more distressing thing.

The view of prop 200 being racist has to do with who it affects, how, and why. My personal opinion is the resolution has to start at the border. If you don't want illegal immigrants, do more to prevent them, and relax that requirements for legal immigration. But I'm of the opinion that politicians (on either side) don't want that because of what it will do to the economy. These kinds of denial of service aren't going to slow illegal immigration. It's still more attractive to be here. So all that it's doing is putting illegals, who, in Arizona, are nearly all hispanic, at risk. It may not be because they are hispanic, but the fact is that it's a law that affects almost exclusively hispanics and fails to address the root problem.

Is the "N" word inherently racist? Language is tricky. On one level, words are just words and only have power if we let them. On the other hand, if we don't create a distinction, then it becomes difficult to recognize where the dividing line is. If we allow people to be okay with using racial slurs, then it makes it that much more difficult to impress in the society how to recognize true racism and that it's a problem. Yes, language only has as much power as we give it, but I think it's important for us to give it that power.

[Betty]

[QUOTE=Ghoulish Delight]Everything's about context. For example:

Presidente Fox's comments were a reference to the stereotype that Meixcans hold of blacks as hard workers. "He works like a black man" is a common saying in Mexico.QUOTE]


Someone else (a hispanic) had mentioned that to me but took it differently - that blacks were lazy - so it was an insult and not a compliment.

I'm all for not allowing illegal immigrants to use our schools, social services etc, with the exception of dire emergency services... and even then there needs to be some restrictions as people should not be going to the ER for an ear ache. In Mexico, you will be deported as an illegal alien. You don't get social services... you can't send your kids to school...

And yet they expect it from us when they enter illegally.

I think the billboard that read Los Angeles, Mexico raised a lot of eyebrows.

Racist is an overused word that caries a lot of baggage and is often used for to further an agenda that has nothing to do with racism.

[Tref]

Racist is an overused word that caries a lot of baggage and is often used for to further an agenda that has nothing to do with racism.

Are you saying racists over pack?

[Not Afraid]

Here's a summary from a paper on HR Management on racism.

Racism and discrimination go hand in hand. Noticing cultural or racial differernces is not racism. Discriminating against a person BECAUSE of cultural or racial differences IS racism. Any person, place or institution that promotes inequality between races is practising racism.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Someone else (a hispanic) had mentioned that to me but took it differently - that blacks were lazy - so it was an insult and not a compliment.
But it doesn't even make sense that way. I mean, if what he meant was that blacks are lazy, then he was saying, "We Mexicans are even lazier than blacks!"

Now, I'm still don't think the comment was completely "okay". Like I said, even positive stereotypes can be devisive. Lord knows that saying something like, "That math problem's too hard, even for an Asian," is not really kosher. But I'm less bothered by it than outright hate speach.

[scaeagles]

Well, if positive stereotyping is OK, then negative stereotyping must by default be OK, would it not be? Not that anyone would prefer the negative to the positive, but isn't it all just about the same in terms of generalizations of a given race?

I believe a lot of stereotyping is cultural rather than race based. There are clear differences between races in physical features.....does it not follow that there are psychological or mental differences as well? This does not mean any differences along those lines are bad.....so I've never understood why pointing out differences is bad. Diversity is a good thing, right? If we are wanting diversity, than we have to be noticing that people are different. But is some differences are pointed out, you get in trouble.

I don't know - I'm just rambling myself into nowhere, I suppose.

[Name]

no, made perfect sense to me sca...........and I agree........in a nutshell, P.C. sucks.

[wendybeth]

But it doesn't even make sense that way. I mean, if what he meant was that blacks are lazy, then he was saying, "We Mexicans are even lazier than blacks!"

Now, I'm still don't think the comment was completely "okay". Like I said, even positive stereotypes can be devisive. Lord knows that saying something like, "That math problem's too hard, even for an Asian," is not really kosher. But I'm less bothered by it than outright hate speach.

Fox said that "Mexicans take the jobs that even the blacks won't do". By saying this, he was saying that mexicans are willing to do work that is even beneath the blacks- not saying that blacks, or mexicans, are lazy. Still, it is promoting a stereotype that blacks do the dirty work- slave work- that whites won't do. It was insensitive to blacks, mexicans and whites- very often the whites and blacks aren't doing the work because it's not an option. The jobs go to illegals, who are paid less than federally mandated minimum wage, and often under the table.

[mousepod]

There are clear differences between races in physical features.....does it not follow that there are psychological or mental differences as well?

No.

[Ghoulish Delight]

It just doesn't make sense to me that he'd be saying "you should work with us because we're willing to degrade ourselves more than blacks." If that were the case, Mexicans should be far more pissed off than blacks. If his intent was to insult blacks, then he was insulting Mexicans just as much if not more.

Don't get me wrong, intent aside, it's something he should appologize for. But having to appologize for being insensitive in your wording is a world of difference from having to appologize for intentionally being racially insulting. And I don't he was.

[wendybeth]

That is exactly what he says he meant by that, GD. Thereofore, in his mind, he wasn't being derogatory to blacks, and as far as mexicans go, I don't think he much cares. Why the hell do you think they want out of there? They are not remotely enfranchised, and if their feelings got hurt, no one would care. The ruling class in Mexico doesn't want them there, either. Makes rich people uneasy to have a large underclass of desperately poor people hanging about, especially in a country that has already gone through several bloody revolutions, and is teetering on the brink of another.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

In AZ, we passed Prop 200 last November. What this ballot initiative did was to put into law that to receive anything other than emergency services, everyone must present proof of citizenship. Any social services, enrollment in school, etc. This has been called "racist" by some local Hispanic leaders, and they have called for boycotts of AZ until it is repealed.

I don't think it's racist to deny illegal aliens everything but emergency services.



I would imagine that this initiative doesn't mention the word "Hispanic" anywhere in it and applies equally to anyone who enters the country illegally, regardless of their race. Therefore, I don't see it as racist. Sure, the people that enter Arizona illegally are likely to be mexican but they could also be from south or central america as well. Heck, they could be canadian, russian, or scandinavian. The law would apply to them equally.

When you break the law, there are consequences. If I get caught driving under the influence, the ability to drive is taken away from me. If I commit a felony, the ability to vote is taken away from me. And, if I enter any country illegally, I expect that there would be ramifications.

There are benefits to being an american citizen. I don't believe that those that have chosen to break our laws and enter the country illegally should be entitled to those benefits other than emergency medical care. It has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with what their race or country of origin happens to be.

[scaeagles]

No.

I'm curious - why do you say that? If our DNA makes us look physically different, with various races sharing common physical characteristics, it would logically follow that there are differences in our brains as well. Does this mean one is bad and another is good? No. It means there are differences. Why is it acceptable to embrace physical differences, but the thought of mental differences is offensive?

[mousepod]

I'm curious - why do you say that? If our DNA makes us look physically different, with various races sharing common physical characteristics, it would logically follow that there are differences in our brains as well. Does this mean one is bad and another is good? No. It means there are differences. Why is it acceptable to embrace physical differences, but the thought of mental differences is offensive?

Not offensive, just bad logic.

A wider or longer nose or brow or different melanin levels in the skin doesn't imply differences in internal organs, including the brain.

The fact that your argument has been made by many racists throughout the years might lead you to believe that I would group your post in with those hateful people's ideas and be offended, but that's not the case.

Just didn't want a good argument to get derailed by faulty logic.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I've thought about it many times. I don't think scaeagles was attempting to imply that a bigger nose is linked to a brain type. BUT, there is a lot of evidence that personality, intelligence, and many other mental traits ARE genetic. Just from an anectodtal standpoint, my mom always had a lot more, personality wise, in common with her father than her step-father, even though she was raised for most of her life by her step-father.

So if there IS a genetic component to personality, then there's a good chance that there will be racial similiarities in that respect.

[scaeagles]

And my argument is not intended, as it is with many racists, to say one is better than the other. Just different. And I honestly don't know if there is any scientific evidence one way or the other. It just seems to make sense.

I believe certain races are more susceptable to certain diseases. So there are certainly internal differences in function of the immune system, it would seem.

I'm not a scientist. I don't know.

[scaeagles]

I would imagine that this initiative doesn't mention the word "Hispanic" anywhere in it and applies equally to anyone who enters the country illegally, regardless of their race.

You are correct. But the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens in Az are obviously hispanic.

[wendybeth]

I'm curious - why do you say that? If our DNA makes us look physically different, with various races sharing common physical characteristics, it would logically follow that there are differences in our brains as well. Does this mean one is bad and another is good? No. It means there are differences. Why is it acceptable to embrace physical differences, but the thought of mental differences is offensive?

And yet, Bush insists that all children learn exactly the same way, must be tested exactly the same and must all pass the same test, without any sort of help in the way of accomodations. Hmmmm....

[€uroMeinke]

So if there IS a genetic component to personality, then there's a good chance that there will be racial similiarities in that respect.

I think the problem has been that while there are genetic componants for these things - they don't breakdown in the catagories we typically call race, as the common racial categories are rather arbitrary and have changed over time. "Africans" for example tend to show the greatest diversity of genetic make-up, yet clearly the are subject to some of the greatest stereotyping.
Our nation, as another example is becoming more and more multi-racial - such that the last census had to be altered to refect that change.

As for the legislation being racist - I think the claim is made that more "latin looking" people will be stopped to verify citizenship rather than "Irish or Scandanavian looking" people. In my anecdotal experience, I never recall any of the illeagle euro-aliens I have encountered to ever have trouble with the INS.

[Fab]

I just wanted to pop in and note that the last Asian guy I dated was hung like the fricken Mona Lisa. Stereotypes are everywhere. Hey, Wendy! Ya dumb blonde! (/me hides my hair bleach) EuroMeinke: cut your hair, ya bongo-playin' hippie! SCAEagles, you can't dance nor play basketball! I eat Wonder Bread and always put brown gravy on my rice, 'cause I'm Haole. Any more?

[€uroMeinke]

I just wanted to pop in and note that the last Asian guy I dated was hung like the fricken Mona Lisa.

Having been to the Louve and having seen the Mona Lisa, I can't recall noticing how exactly the painting was hung - except for the fact that it was kept behind protective glass, as such I'm not sure if this is complimentary, insulting, or just the non-sequitor I take it as.

Oh, and I prefer being called a Nazi-Kraut-Devo-Fag.

[wendybeth]

****ing Hawaiians.;)

[Name]

[quote]Yeah, I don't get this either, please expand a bit(but don't need full details, just a better analogy, or an explanation of the analogy) Are you saying he was hung on the wall, used extreme protection, drew a large crowd?

[Gemini Cricket]

"Everyone's a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone's a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethnic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!"

[SacTown Chronic]

Mona Lisa has a big schlong? I did not know that.

[Scrooge McSam]

I don't think noticing or even pointing out differences in races is necessarily bad.

The troubling thing is, more often than not, this examination does not lead to a celebration of differences and chance to learn from them, but rather a way to slice and dice the population in a bid to divide and conquer.

Next you start getting the argument "Why should my taxes be used to pay for XX, an obvious weakness in the XX race".

[scaeagles]

Human nature, I suppose. Happens to the fat kid on the playground, or the kid with acne, or the kid who can't afford decent clothes, or the homely kid......it isn't always based on race. Far too many people wish to belittle those who are different for any reason to make themselves feel superior.

[Gemini Cricket]

People in Hawai'i talk about different races up front. People joke about it all the time without being so hung up on things. Some people take things to the extreme, but it's a lot more light hearted than here on the mainland.

***ing Hawaiians, indeed! :D

I mean, I'm Sicilian, Portuguese, Hawaiian, Chinese, Cherokee and French... there are way too many slurs that I need to keep track of... ;)

[scaeagles]

NO! Not French! Say it isn't so! ;)

[SacTown Chronic]

Far too many people wish to belittle those who are different for any reason to make themselves feel superior.


Well, I try my best
To be just like I am,
But everybody wants you
To be just like them. ~ Bob Dylan

[mousepod]

"Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!"

Tom Lehrer

[Gemini Cricket]

NO! Not French! Say it isn't so! ;)
Oh la la! :)

Apparently, there's a great story on my mom's side of the family of someone having an affair with a French smuggler. But like most word of mouth things with my family, it's probably bullsh it.
:D

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I think Yoda explained it best.

Well, no. Actually, I think GD explained it best.

But, I'll quote Yoda anyway: "Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to the Dark Side."

And now, for some Violent Femmes:

Black Girls

I dig the black girls, oh so much more than the white girls.
I was so pleased to learn they were faster.
C'est, c'est, c'est vous I'm after.

All comes a faggot white boy.
Said look, look, look first kind of joy.
They come around so queer and quiet,
as I rebel and riot.

Shall I dig the white boys?
All so much more that the black boys.
I was so pleased to learn they're not smarter.
Go on, give, give, give it to me harder, harder, harder, just say harded.

You know I love the Lord of hosts,
the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.
I was so pleased to learn that he's inside me
In my time of trouble he will hide me.

I dig the black girls.
I dig the black girls.
I dig the black girls.
I dig the black girls.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Mona Lisa has a big schlong? I did not know that.

Sac, I'm surprised at you. You haven't read The Da Vinci Code yet? Mona Lisa=Amon L'Isa. Amon (Egyptian god of fertility) and Isis (Egyptian goddess of fertility) as one. That dude has tomatoes with a side of pickle on her.

[Not Afraid]

Yummmmm. Tomatoes and a Pickle......nasty food at it's best. Makes for a good sandwich.