"They blew up their poster boy"

[wendybeth]

Tillman's family blasts Army (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157321,00.html)

"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman told the Post. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

When the details surrounding Tillman's death first started coming to light, I thought the Army's 'Hero' campaign was horribly innappropriate. Now, his family is going after the Army for their handling of this whole mess. Gee, I wonder if Sean Hannity is going to have anything to say about this?:rolleyes:

[Fab]

It's all the Liberals' fault.

[wendybeth]

Ap reports that his comrades hid and destroyed his clothing and body armor. His family wasn't notified as to the true manner of his death until five weeks later. Some fine way to repay his family for their loss, and what an incredibly dishonorable way to repay Tillman for his enormous sacrifice. I am beyond disgusted by this.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Awful. This is what a government does during a war, however. In fact, all governments do stuff like this all the time, including ours.

It's disgusting, but not shocking, really. Par for the dirty course.

[scaeagles]

Inexcusable. Friendly fire is a sad fact of war. It would be difficult to find fault with the person who actually did it because of that, but those who ordered the cover up should be dishonorably discharged (can't say court martialed as I do not know what military law ius regarding this) immediately.

I also feel badly for the poor soldier(s) who are responsible for killing him.

[blueerica]

UGH - How sad! What a sad situation, and a sad day. How terrible for his family. :(

[wendybeth]

I realise 'friendly fire' is a fact of war- it's amazing that it doesn't happen with more frequency. What I find inexcusable is the attempt to cover it up, and then wrap it up in the guise that they did. We all know why they did so- as his family said, he was the Army's 'poster boy', and they continued to try to perpetuate the image even after his death, by manipulating the facts and destroying evidence. Couple this with the fact that recruitment efforts have been temporarily halted due to difficulties with officers making false promises and lying in their paperwork, etc. Any bets on when the draft will start up?:rolleyes:

[Gemini Cricket]

Well, at least we still have Jessica Lynch and the brave story of how she was rescued out of the clutches of the evil doers...



Oh, wait...

[BarTopDancer]

WHY did I open this thread. :mad: :mad:

The people who ordered the cover up should be courtmartialed, sentenced to loss of rank and pay, forced to pay some sort of restitution, sentenced to life of hard labor. Death is to easy of a punishment.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Nephythys]

It's all the Liberals' fault.


It was the libs who danced and spat on his grave- kinda funny to see the flip come over now. (and no- this is not a comment on any post made by people here)

[Tref]

It was the libs who danced and spat on his grave- kinda funny to see the flip come over now. (and no- this is not a comment on any post made by people here)

Nephy you must be more spe-cific!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It was the libs who danced and spat on his grave- kinda funny to see the flip come over now. (and no- this is not a comment on any post made by people here)As my 11th grade History teacher said countless times - Your fact-to-assertion ratio is lacking.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Yeah, I would like an assertion like that backed up as well. I won't hold my breath though because I don't think it can be.

[Nephythys]

fine-
I'll get you some links. But thank you for casting aspersions on me personally when I said it was not anyone here-but to suit you, since you think it is not so....I will find them.

Isn't it sad to find out that people who you consider of like mind would do such a thing?

Patience- the story and links are old, but you will have them.

[scaeagles]

As Tillman was a Phoenix Cardinal, I heard many interviews here with people who derided him as stupid for putting his love of country above a million dollar NFL contract for an "unjust war". I don't know how wide spread it was, but there were certainly quite a few people I heard that said he "got what he deserved" for being that stupid.

Now, can you find a nutjob in any area of the political spectrum that will say anything? Of course. But these things were being said, and it was.....sickening and sad to listen to it. I would typically listen so that I could hear the interviewer rip the person to shreds.

[Tref]

fine-
I'll get you some links. But thank you for casting aspersions on me personally ...

Hello! Methinks you may be mis-construing my (our) words a bit ... I can not believe anybody would delight in the death of a soldier -- any soldier.

[Nephythys]

Hello! Methinks you may be mis-construing my (our) words a bit ... I can not believe anybody would delight in the death of a soldier -- any soldier.


It is horrid isn't it-

First Link (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3529940)

More to come I am sure-

Apologies for being sensitive- but I do not spend my time making things up to cause uproar- I stated a fact, not a false assertion. It WAS libs who celebrated his death- and showed callousness and heartlessness. It is a shame when anyone lacks compassion for someone just because they do not approve of the war.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Not to be glib, but are you seriously equating random message board posts with an effort by high ranking military officials and possibly elected officials to tell blatant lies?

[Nephythys]

Not in the least- I am responding on an offhand way to the comment of this being the libs fault- it just reminded me of how ghastly certain liberals behaved after his death- I find the notion of a cover up as reprehensible, just as you do-

And it is not just random board posts-
Google search- Ted Rall, notorious liberal.....
Rall Links (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ted+rall%3Dpat+tillman)

They had to pull his stuff- he was so vile. Not someone I would want speaking for me, if I was a lib....

I did not mean to derail- just to respond to the comment (though again, my remarks are not aimed at anyone here)- and the issue has taken on a life of it's own.

Although- I guess while I would not equate- I find BOTH actions to be those of low life gutter rats. Call it as I see it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yes, but I'm far more disturbed by low life gutter rats that make their way high in the military chain of command or political world than I am about loudmouths that spout off online, no matter how high profile they are. All someone needs to do it online is a keyboard and an opinion. The people in command have people and a system around them that's complicit in getting them there and supporting their actions.

[Nephythys]

I'm not disagreeing.

Though my point stands. It WAS libs who celebrated his death and mocked him for his choice to join. Now they change their tune because now they can bash the government who sent him- and that is a far more favored sport, is it not?

[Not Afraid]

It WAS libs who celebrated his death- and showed callousness and heartlessness. It is a shame when anyone lacks compassion for someone just because they do not approve of the war.

Ummmm, no. By your statement ALL libs celebrated. I can assure you that this is not the case. There may have been some individuals who were lacking in compassion for this particular situation because it outweighed the tragedy of the war, but I know that you cannon make a blanket statement about all Libs thinking ONE particular way about this issue.

From my experience with Liberals, they are usually much more independent thinkers than that - personal experience (and living in California) being they key there.

[Nephythys]

I did not say all. So there is zero point in contesting that point. It was libs who celebrated, not all, but it was certainly not the conservatives who did so.

I made no blanket statement- I would no more say that all libs are one way, than I would say all conservatives are another. I fail to see why anyone needs to defend liberals as a group because of what some said- and they DID say it. Like it or not.

[Nephythys]

I did not say all. So there is zero point in contesting that point. It was libs who celebrated, not all, but it was certainly not the conservatives who did so.

I made no blanket statement- I would no more say that all libs are one way, than I would say all conservatives are another. I fail to see why anyone needs to defend liberals as a group because of what some said- and they DID say it. Like it or not.

Link (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13255)

Link 2 (http://asmallvictory.net/archives/tr040503.gif)

Link 3 (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/printbs20040428.shtml)

Link 4 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200)

Link 5 (http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2398355&nav=23KtRjD9)

Yes- quite the open minded compassionate folk...truly.

[BarTopDancer]

It was the libs who danced and spat on his grave- kinda funny to see the flip come over now. (and no- this is not a comment on any post made by people here)

You said "the libs", not some libs, not libs. THE libs. In this context, to me at least implies all.

I for one did not celebrate his death. I have yet to celebrate anyones death, from the 'coalition' or the 'insurgent' side. Death is death and it is not to be celebrated.

[mousepod]

Conservatives commit hypocrisy. Conservatives see themselves as better than others. Conservatives make grand sweeping gestures about groups of people. Conservatives post flame bait. Conservatives take it personally.

Not all conservatives.

See how productive this is?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It was the conservatives who danced and spat on the graves of the blacks and jews killed by the KKK.







I did not say all.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Damn, 'Pod beat me to it. :D

[Nephythys]

See how defensive some people need to be because they would rather sparse words on a message board and attempt to claim I am blackballing them all- rather than deal with the issue I raised.

Distract and redirect. Try to bounce back on me rather than look to the reprehensible behavior of some of your idealogical partners.

I did not say all- the word "the" meant only it was libs who did as I stated. Nothing more- though the defensive nature of the responses and the inability to confront what SOME libs did after his death speaks volumes.

I did as asked- I provided links and I could get more- yet instead of addressing the facts that back the assertion, now you turn on me.

It is not unexpected, just disappointing.

[BarTopDancer]

Distract and redirect. Try to bounce back on me rather than look to the reprehensible behavior of some of your idealogical partners.

Have you looked at the reprehensible behavior of some of your idealogical partners? Good ol Bushy boy for example? Rumsfield?

Now if you'll excuse me, I found something shiny to distract me.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I did not say all. So there is zero point in contesting that point. It was libs who celebrated, not all, but it was certainly not the conservatives who did so.


Try to see it the other way though.

"Conservative christians are the ones that danced and spit on Matthew Shepards grave."

That isn't a true statement even though an ultra-religious nutjob like Fred Phelps picketed his funeral, holding a sign that said "God Hates Fags."

It doesn't matter that you did or didn't say "all". It is still offensive because it suggests that this is a typical view and I contend that it isn't, regardless of what a few idiots on a message board say.

I don't think it is fair to compare someone like this to someone who happens to be liberal.

Edited to add: geez, you guys are quick in your posting.

[mousepod]

The conservatives created a war using lies as justification. The conservatives lured young idealistic Americans to fight in that war. The conservatives killed their own soldiers without the help of enemy combatants. The conservatives covered up their own terrible and deadly mistake. The conservatives made up a brand new lie to make themselves look good.

The conservatives are pathetic bullies who make broad statements about the character of people who hold different opinions. The conservatives call an honest defense of such character smears as "disctractions and redirections." Who the heck do the conservatives think they are?

[Nephythys]

Not denying anything, nor agreeing with all- you guys are still doing it. You are tap dancing so fast I can't keep up. You won't actively condemn those who did so, despite my facts that, as I said, back the assertion. You are trying to distract, reframe and refuse to adress the issue.

Amazing- isn't it? So busy with your boomerang antics, you can't even discuss what I did bring to the table.

Bottom line- certain groups and people, all associated with the liberal idealogy, were happy to grave dance when Tillman was killed, but with a new target being a gov't who covered things up? Suddenly Tillman is truly a victim, before he was a buffoon who deserved what he got.

[Prudence]

And what exactly would you like us to discuss? I believe it's already been mentioned that yes, there are nutty people out there who lack compassion and use the pain of others for their own gain.

[BarTopDancer]

What exactly did you bring to the table besides perceived generalizations?

[sleepyjeff]

The conservatives are pathetic bullies who make broad statements about the character of people who hold different opinions. The conservatives call an honest defense of such character smears as "disctractions and redirections." Who the heck do the conservatives think they are?

It was the so called "Conservative Fox News" that was quoted in the OP of this thread ;)

[scaeagles]

It was the conservatives who danced and spat on the graves of the blacks and jews killed by the KKK.

Robert Byrd is a conservative? :evil:

[mousepod]

Not denying anything, nor agreeing with all- you guys are still doing it. You are tap dancing so fast I can't keep up. You won't actively condemn those who did so, despite my facts that, as I said, back the assertion. You are trying to distract, reframe and refuse to adress the issue.

Amazing- isn't it? So busy with your boomerang antics, you can't even discuss what I did bring to the table.

The conservatives killed him. The conservatives covered it up. Some misguided people who the conservatives label "the liberals" wrongly said that "he got what was coming to him." These individuals are sad and incorrect. They are also angry because the conservatives like to do bad things and then obfuscate the truth. One way the conservatives do that is by pointing fingers and generalizing. You you you you you.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Not denying anything, nor agreeing with all- you guys are still doing it. You are tap dancing so fast I can't keep up. You won't actively condemn those who did so, despite my facts that, as I said, back the assertion. You are trying to distract, reframe and refuse to adress the issue.



I wasn't aware that a condemnation of these individuals would be necessary. I don't think that Tillman is any more or any less special than any of the soldiers over there who gives their life for our country. Of course the death of a soldier is tragic. The lie that liberals don't care about the soldiers just isn't true though, no matter how many times those on your side try to spin it that way and it is quite offensive to some of us.

And I don't see any tap dancing here. I see a post that can be easily construed as a sweeping generalization, intended or not. I see posters taking exception with that. If a sweeping generalization isn't what you were implying, perhaps you could choose your words more carefully. That is all we have to go by.

[Tref]

now you turn on me.

Turn on you? Ahh, yes, now I remember why I stay out of these things ...

Anyhoo, I read a few of your links, Neph old girl. And you're right, these are some angry folks. They are angry because their government lied to them. They are mad because this lie has resulted in the deaths of thousands of people. THOUSANDS. Including the aforementioned former football player, former soldier, former living, breathing, human being.

Neph, I understand your anger, but, just like the writers you've included in your links, I think its a misplaced anger. Its not the liberals you should be angry with, but the people who took this chap away from his family so to be used as cannon fodder. And for what? To bring democracy to the Middle East?

Its all very sad to me. My advice, stay away from the Drudge report and Fox News. Life isn't really split between the Liberals and the Conservatives. They just want you to believe that. I suppose it gives them somebody to blame and takes your focus away from the important things.

In a few days you'll feel better. I promise.

[Not Afraid]

Amazing- isn't it? So busy with your boomerang antics, you can't even discuss what I did bring to the table.



This general topic is rendered impossible to discuss due to the inherant problems in your stated argument. If the argument was clean and clear, the duscussion could continue, but, as it is, it is much to muddy to continue with.

[scaeagles]

My advice, stay away from the Drudge report and Fox News. In a few days you'll feel better. I promise.

That IS the cure, Tref. Those things make me feel sooooo much better - and apparently many, many other people as well!

[SacTown Chronic]

I remember the sweet afterglow of 9/11 when the country was united. How sad is it that we only listen and feel compassion after our world has been rocked? Fvcking Bush....why have we let this brain-dead twit tear us apart again?

[scaeagles]

Bush....why have we let this brain-dead twit tear us apart again?

Plenty of brain dead twits on the left doing their best to tear us apart as well, dear Sac.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Pat Tillman was no more the bafoon who deserved what he got that a few loud mouth meaningless twits with no baring on anything important said he was than the infallible hero that the liars in charge who have direct control over thousands of people's lives led people to believe.

He was a soldier who died. One of several thousand. No better or worse.

And I RARELY go this route, but damnit, The Conservatives started it. They started it by deeming anyone who DARED to say anything against the war as unpatriotic. They started it by cannonizing all soldiers for simply doing what they are trained and paid to do. They started it by demeaning every other soldier's sacrifice as they shouted the glories of Pat Tillman. And worst of all, they started it by telling a bald face lie to our faces and, most importantly to the faces of Tillman's family.

The official voice of this country is extremist, deluded, hypocritical, and arrogant. So yeah, you're gonna get backlash of equal callibur. So what? Those nut jobs don't matter. I can ignore them. I'm not given the choice to ignore the regime, er, administration or ignore the decissions of our military. Nor is the rest of the world.

So fine, you want acknowledgement that what's in those message boards and blogs is a bunch of nutjobs? Yep, they sure are. But who cares?

[SacTown Chronic]

Plenty of brain dead twits on the left doing their best to tear us apart as well, dear Sac.
Probably. Nobody is 100% right or blameless.


But Bush holds the hammer and he has much hate in his heart.

[BarTopDancer]

But Bush holds the hammer and he has much hate in his heart.

No no! He has the vision of world peace and democracy throughout in his heart! DUH!

Of course fighting for peace is like fvcking for virginity.

[scaeagles]

Of course fighting for peace is like fvcking for virginity.

So I take it then that you do not support UN peacekeeping actions throughout the world?

I'm being sarcastic, of course. My point is that it is often that military action is required to preserve or restore peace.

[sleepyjeff]

Of course fighting for peace is like fvcking for virginity.

huh?

[Tref]

huh?

My virginty.

HANDS OFF!

[wendybeth]

Ackk! My thread's been hijacked by Ann Coulter!

Seriously, I was so saddened when he was killed. I had no reason to believe that he was killed in any way other than the usual in wartime- by hostile fire. Then, word started leaking out as to the true manner of his death, and I felt even worse for he and his family, because by now the conservative pundits were waving his sacrifice around like a yardstick of patriotism. Crap, they were beating dissenters over the head with it. Finally, his family comes right out and tells what really happened, and we discover the Army tried to cover it up- hell, his platoon destroyed his clothing and body armor! How ****ed up is that? He did sacrifice his life, and if it was an accident, there is no shame in how it happened. So why the cover-up? We all know the answer to that one.:rolleyes:

[€uroMeinke]

If soldiers didn't die - we'd have nothing to post about here.

[Gemini Cricket]

Ackk! My thread's been hijacked by Ann Coulter!
But, hey, she made the cover of Time, so she can't be all bad, right?
Riiight... :rolleyes:

[Gemini Cricket]

That IS the cure, Tref. Those things make me feel sooooo much better - and apparently many, many other people as well!
Yet, Bill O'Reilly called The Drudge Report "A threat to democracy".
Link to Drudgery (http://www.drudgereport.com/mattbc1.htm)
Who to believe...who to believe? Which way, which way?
:D

[scaeagles]

Yet, Bill O'Reilly called The Drudge Report "A threat to democracy".
Link to Drudgery (http://www.drudgereport.com/mattbc1.htm)
Who to believe...who to believe? Which way, which way?
:D

Now, now, GC. Just because I am a fan and frequency reader/watcher/listener to Drudge and Fox news does not mean that everythign they say in terms of opinion is something I agree with.

I actually used to watch and enjoy O'Reilly....but there was a time when he became way too full of himself and took himself way too seriously and it got old.

And regarding my beloved Ann Coulter on the cover of Time - didn't much care for the photo they used. Ahhh.....Ann.....

[SacTown Chronic]

"And finally, New Rule: The people in America who are most in favor of the Iraq war must now go there and fight it. [applause] [cheers] The Army missed its recruiting goal by 42% last month. More people joined the Michael Jackson Fan Club. [laughter] “We've done picked all the low-lying Lynndie England fruit.” [laughter] And now we need warm bodies. We need warm bodies like Paula Abdul needs…warm bodies! [laughter] [applause]



Now, last week, a Baptist minister in North Carolina told nine members of his congregation that unless they renounced their 2004 vote for John Kerry, they had to leave his church. Well, if we're that certain these days that George Bush is always that right about everything, then going to Iraq to fulfill the glorious leader's vision would seem the least one could do. [laughter] And, hey, if it makes it any easier for you, just think of it as a reality show: “Fear Factor: Sh*tting Your Pants Edition.” [laughter] [applause] “Survivor: Sunni Triangle.” [laughter] Or maybe it's a video game, “Grand Theft Allah.” [laughter]



Now, I know you're thinking, but, Bill, I already do my part with the “Support Our Troops” magnet I have on my Chevy Tahoe. [laughter] How much more can one man give? [laughter] Well, here's an intriguing economic indicator. It's been over a year since they graduated, but neither of the Bush twins has been able to find work. Why don't they sign up? [applause] [cheers] Do they hate America or just freedom in general? [laughter] [applause]



And that goes for everybody who helped sell this war. You've got to go first. Brooks and Dunn, drop your cocks and grab your socks! [laughter] [applause] [cheers] Ann Coulter, darling, trust me, you will love the Army. [applause] [cheers] You think you make up sh*t! [laughter]



Curt Schilling, b-bye! [laughter] You ended the curse on Boston. Good. Let's try your luck in Fallouja. [laughter] Oh, and that Republican Baldwin brother, he's got to go so that Ted Nugent has someone to frag. [laughter] [applause]



But mostly, we have to send Mr. And Mrs. Britney Spears. [laughter] [applause] Because Britney once said, “We should trust our president in every decision that he makes, and we should just support that and be faithful in what happens.” Okay, somebody has to die for that. [laughter] [applause]

Or at least go. Hey, maybe she'll like it. Hell, she's already knocked up. [laughter] That'll save the MP unit about ten minutes. [laughter] [groans] [applause]



And think of the spiritual lift it will provide to troops and civilians alike when actual combat smacks the smirk off of Kevin Federline's face and fills his low-hanging trousers with dootie. [laughter] [applause]



In summation, you cannot advocate for something you wouldn't do yourself. For example, I'm for fuel efficiency, which is why I drive a hybrid car and always take an electric private plane. [laughter] I'm for legalizing marijuana, and so I smoke a ton of it. [laughter] [applause] [cheers]



And I'm for gay marriage, which is – oh, well, you get the points! [laughter] [applause]

~ Real Time with Bill Maher

:D

[SacTown Chronic]

But, hey, she made the cover of Time, so she can't be all bad, right?
Riiight... :rolleyes:

Really? :eek:

What's the story about?

[scaeagles]

Bill Maher? Does anyone still watch him? Want me to quote him saying that our military is a bunch of cowards and the really brave ones are the terrorists? He ranks right up there with Bill O'Reilly for me - very full of himself.

[Gemini Cricket]

Really? :eek:

What's the story about?
Heck if I know. All I know is that her legs looked like stringbeans.
Ann (http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101050425,00.html)
Regarding Bill Maher, at least he has a sense of humor which O'Reilly does not. They're both full of themselves and often full of sh*t.
:D

[SacTown Chronic]

Bill Maher? Does anyone still watch him? Want me to quote him saying that our military is a bunch of cowards and the really brave ones are the terrorists?

Does this mean you're not enlisting? :p

[SacTown Chronic]

Ann (http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101050425,00.html)

Fugly

[scaeagles]

Fugly

Don't be dissing my conservo-babe. It's just a bad pic, Ok?!?!?!?

[Gemini Cricket]

I dunno.
She looks pretty bad in this shot (http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050425/), too...
:D

[SacTown Chronic]

Even fuglier.

[scaeagles]

Here's some good shots - my Ann.


http://www.grassrootspa.com/anncoulter.gif

http://www.complexhash.com/Images/anncoulter1.jpg

http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2002-09-12/mixsite-1.jpg

[Ghoulish Delight]

You must have take too much viagra, I think you're having a bad trip on those crazy wang pills.

[SacTown Chronic]

Yikes...I was just reading some of her quotes from the link GC provided. :eek:

I hope she doesn't believe half the stuff she says.

[SacTown Chronic]

You must have take too much viagra, I think you're having a bad trip on those crazy wang pills.
He's hoping to go blind so that he won't even need the Viagra in order to have relations with Ann.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Amazing that people who decry Michael Moore worship her.

[scaeagles]

Amazing that people who decry Michael Moore worship her.

Just for the record, I completely agree that much of what she says is way over the top.

I would point out that people who worship Michael Moore decry her.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I think they're both idiots.

[scaeagles]

I think they're both idiots.

There is certainly an argument for that.

[Ghoulish Delight]

And both equally attractive.

[SacTown Chronic]

Put a skirt on Michael Moore and see if you can tell them apart.





Hint: I think Ann has more fuzz on her face.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'd rather listen to Maureen Dowd, Molly Ivins or Madeline Albright any day. Looks and wisdom aren't always connected. Not that Ann has any looks to speak of...
;)

I may not agree always with MM, but at least he's entertaining and funny. Ann's just... blah.

[Not Afraid]

He needs a makeover and MM needs a diet and exercise program. They could both use lobotomies.

[Gemini Cricket]

He needs a makeover...
He who...? Ann?! I thought so.
:D