children on adult's shoulder for fireworks

[cstephens]

This has been something that I've been thinking about for quite some time, but since it happened again Sunday night, it's a bit more immediate at the moment. One of the things that I think of as rude is putting a child on an adult's shoulder during the fireworks or another kind of show like that, where the view of the people behind is now significantly blocked. I'm of the not-tall variety, so when I find a spot to watch the fireworks or Fantasmic or something like that, I pick someone who isn't too much taller than me to stand behind, or if they are taller than me, then at least I know what I'll be missing since I know how much over their head I can see. And then the lights dim, and the show starts. And the person in front of me is now a foot or two taller because he/she now has a child on his/her shoulders, and my view as well as that of some of those around me is now significantly blocked. I've often said something to the adult, but their response is generally "the child can't see", and that seems to be a good enough reason for why a few of us now aren't able to see much of the show.

Is it really just a matter that the child is most important, so any inconvenience to anyone else is entirely irrelevant? "You have an AP, you can see the fireworks/show anytime you want to," some might say. Well, true, I can go back. But I don't think that having an AP means I'm supposed to be standing behind a 7 foot tall child-and-adult every time I watch a show. And what about the non-AP-bearing person next to me who also now can't see over or through the 7 foot tall child-and-adult? What about the child who's too short to see over most people but too big to be picked up at all, who could see something before but is now basically just staring at the people's backs? I get that it's difficult to carry a child high enough so the child can see, especially during a show as long as "Remember", and putting the child on your shoulders is the easiest way to accomplish that, but for me, it still doesn't justify doing it. And in a situation where it's very crowded, it's not even like you can move somewhere else.

I remember watching "Believe" one night, and several rows in front of me, three adults side-by-side all hoisted a child onto each of their shoulders as soon as the lights went down on Main Street. They were far enough in front of me that my view wasn't affected, but there was now this wall on Main Street, blocking the view of quite a few people. I couldn't hear what was being said, but I heard what I presumed to be complaints. None of them budged. The people behind them scrambled to move to different areas to try to see around the wall of adult-and-child.

I like that for the parades, they've made it so you have to sit if you're in the front row, but you stand if you're behind. However, that wouldn't work for the fireworks, as sitting down on Main Street doesn't give much of a view. So what's the solution?

And before anyone brings it up, no, I don't have any kids, and I've not had this problem, and no, I don't know what I would do in a situation where my child couldn't see over adults, but I just can't accept that the only answer is the complete disregard of other people.

[Prudence]

When I was a kid, I sometimes couldn't see and that's how things are. You're a kid. You're short. Period.

Frankly, when I was very young we didn't stay up that late anyhow. Even though we had to fly in, stay in a hotel, yadda yadda, we still went to bed at an appropriate hour. Maybe we got to stay up a little later for a treat, but we weren't out super late.

And I think it's rude. I think it's part of the overall "me first" trend. My kid can't see, therefore I'm entitled to do whatever I want to improve my child's view, regardless of its impact on other people. I want to take flash pictures on the dark ride so I'm going to, regardless of its impact on other riders. My kid really wants this character's autograph so I'm going to cut the line, regardless of the impact on the others who have been waiting.

Some people apparently have never learned the difference between "can" and "should."

[lindyhop]

I agree that's it's just plain rude. Not only does it obstruct the view for so many people but a lot of those people start griping and complaining and that really destroys the mood.

[Tref]

I think it should be the other way around.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Yeah, I agree, not a good thing for people to do. But I've accepted it as a by-product of fireworks shows. Wasn't there a Disneyland commercial at one point that showed a child on a parent's shoulders? It's something people always do at fireworks shows.

I'd say it's equally as annoying as having to show up 3 hours before a show and stake out a spot because everyone else will. :rolleyes:Frankly, when I was very young we didn't stay up that late anyhow. Even though we had to fly in, stay in a hotel, yadda yadda, we still went to bed at an appropriate hour. Maybe we got to stay up a little later for a treat, but we weren't out super late. Ok, I can't help but have an opinion on this....that totally sucks and I feel sorry for any kid that has something like that imposed on them at Disneyland. It's a vacation! What sort of evil will it do to keep a child up "super late"? Sure, they may end up cranky, but so would the adults. It's no more evil than letting a child eat more sugar than usual, or get a bunch of souveniers, including a balloon that will die at the end of the day or mouse ears that they'll never wear again.

Sorry Pru, that's one of my buttons there. :D

[Prudence]

Ok, I can't help but have an opinion on this....that totally sucks and I feel sorry for any kid that has something like that imposed on them at Disneyland. It's a vacation! What sort of evil will it do to keep a child up "super late"? Sure, they may end up cranky, but so would the adults. It's no more evil than letting a child eat more sugar than usual, or get a bunch of souveniers, including a balloon that will die at the end of the day or mouse ears that they'll never wear again.

Sorry Pru, that's one of my buttons there. :D

See, if you're a kid, chances are you won't even know that there IS a fireworks show unless someone tells you. I'm not talking 10 or 11. I'm talking the pre-k crowd -- lightweight enough to sit on shoulders during the fireworks. There's no feeling of loss if there's no knowledge of anything missing. As a kid, I followed my parents' schedule. That meant early to bed, early to rise. And it's not like we went to bed at 7. [Actually, if my dad had his way we *would* have been in bed at 7 -- and up at 4! Better milk those non-existant cows...) But there were rules and we followed them. Now, the one teevee show a week rule was extreme. But not bedtime at that age. Not after a full day at the park with more fun than we could have ever imagined with mickey mouse pancakes and frozen bananas and dole whips and goodies galore.

Although when I was a pre-teen, it *was* cruel and unusual punishment to make me go on the matterhorn with my brother. Ewww! How was I supposed to meet cute guys with my brother along?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

There's no feeling of loss if there's no knowledge of anything missing. Well, yeah. The child doesn't need to know about anything else fun either....and then you don't even need to take them to Disneyland at all!

As a kid, I followed my parents' schedule.
<snip>
But there were rules and we followed them.
I'm sorry babe, but the idea of rules like these being kept on a vacation....a Disney vacation....it's beyond my ken.

Now, the one teevee show a week rule was extreme. But not bedtime at that age. Not after a full day at the park with more fun than we could have ever imagined with mickey mouse pancakes and frozen bananas and dole whips and goodies galore.So what's so horrible about staying up late? What damage would it have done to you? Yes, bedtime is important on school nights. But come on, tucking a child into bed before the fireworks even go off, simply because "that's the rule"? That's just sad in my book.

Although when I was a pre-teen, it *was* cruel and unusual punishment to make me go on the matterhorn with my brother. Ewww! How was I supposed to meet cute guys with my brother along?Ok, everyone knows that's the absolute worst. :D

[Not Afraid]

So, when you all have children you can raise them any way you all want to......just like your parents did with you.

Just don't put your kids in your shoulders in front of me.

[Prudence]

So what's so horrible about staying up late? What damage would it have done to you? Yes, bedtime is important on school nights. But come on, tucking a child into bed before the fireworks even go off, simply because "that's the rule"? That's just sad in my book.


Please criticize my parents some more. Because we all know how awful I turned out.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Please criticize my parents some more. Because we all know how awful I turned out.Hey, come on, I'm not trying to insult you. :( I'm sorry if it came out that way. I just want to know the logic behind it. I was (obviously) raised in a totally different environment and it's rather alien to me.

I'm definitely not going to say the lack of rules in my household was perfect parenting...I know my kids will have more rules than I did.

[Prudence]

Hey, come on, I'm not trying to insult you. :( I'm sorry if it came out that way. I just want to know the logic behind it. I was (obviously) raised in a totally different environment and it's rather alien to me.

I'm definitely not going to say the lack of rules in my household was perfect parenting...I know my kids will have more rules than I did.

Sorry -- I've been the recipient of snide, underhanded, and all around unappreciated comments all week at work (is it really only Tuesday? Because it feels like an eternity) so it's a bit easier to jump to conclusions than usual.

My parents had lots of rules. Way too many rules, I think. But this particular instance wasn't one of them, in my opinion.

We did go to Disneyland twice when I was a kid. The first time I was pretty young and my brother was probably a toddler (we're three years apart) and I remember virtually nothing from that trip. I know it was fun, but really I was too young to care about any specifics. It's not like I wanted to see fireworks and they didn't let me. We just did things my parents considered age appropriate. We were of an age where the memories were more for my parents than us, KWIM? Seriously, do not picture deprived youngsters. If you want to feel sorry for our upbringing, bemoan our lack of Atari.

Now, when we went back a few years later, and both my brother and I were older, my parents went all out to give us a vacation to remember -- because we were old enough that we *would* remember. We stayed at the Disneyland Hotel (which was amazing because my dad barely tolerates vacations, let alone non-bargain chain hotels), watched the fireworks multiple times, and got to ride ALL the rides. My parents even ran with us to see Star Tours and Captain EO first thing in the morning (they were the brand new rides then) although I'm sure they couldn't have cared less about those attractions. My parents went on all the roller coasters with us, even though they hated some of them. And they went on multiple times. I have *lots* of memories of that trip -- fireworks, my mom screaming on Big Thunder, waiting on the hotel's monorail platform -- it was truly magical.

Which is all getting off topic in a big way. But in a way not. If we were at the very very very back of a crowd, my dad might have lifted me up. But we were taught to not inconvenience others. We didn't shout in restaurants, talk in movies, or block other people's fireworks views. And if we weren't of an age to accomplish those things successfully, they were saved for later. And we DID do them later, so we weren't really deprived of anything consequential.

But we did learn that we weren't "owed" anything, including a fireworks view.

Hey -- here's a thought to chew on -- I wonder if those parents who think their kids are entitled to views would have a problem with boyfriends who hoist up their petite girlfriends?

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I’m going to disagree, even if I only have a crap argument based on how I feel. Though, first, I'd like to say that your post was really well written and thoughtful and very likely you've weighed in here far better than I'm about to.

If you're in a seated theater, and the people in the front decide to stand up at a concert, it kind of sucks. There are seats. They should sit so you can all sit and enjoy the music. But rather than start a war over it, the people in the back should stand, because shouting, "Sit down up front!" usually just pisses off the musician when he’s in the middle of a quiet piano ballad. Believe me, I experienced this first hand, and it sucked to have my one and only Nick Cave experience spoiled by a bunch of lazy asses sitting around me. If you can’t stand up for Nick Cave, who can you stand up for?! Not everyone can be happy.

I realize there are a lot of adults who love Disneyland. I love the park, too. But I still think of it first and foremost as a place for kids. I understand that putting a kid on someone's shoulders may block the view of other adults and kids, but I don't think they should make a park rule about it.

Also, I don't have kids, so I'm not just thinking about me and mine. It's not like kids at the park - or their parents - don't ever got on my nerves, because I do no have nerves of steel and can easily become annoyed. But at a place like Disneyland, I simply find something to distract me from my annoyance, because I do think it should be more about families and kids than me, a 28 year old girl. Now, is it cool for a kid to pull a temper tantrum and for the parents to turn a blind eye to their child's poor behavior? No. Is it cool to disregard the enjoyment of a 28 year old girl...woman...whatever...just because she's seemingly an adult? No. But I'm not sure what the solution is, so that's why I choose to move myself along to a place where there isn't a kid throwing a tantrum.

I like to imagine the Dad putting his son up on his shoulders is at the park once a year, or once every few years, or only there that one time. And since I live in L.A., I’m not gonna begrudge them that moment. There are a lot of annual pass holders here who can see the park numerous times a year. I realize some of you only get to come down once a year, as well, but you can always move, find a better spot. Be a grown up about it. I can’t understand staring daggers in the back of some dad or mom’s head over it.

I didn’t really get the stroller griping, either. Of course strollers and wheelchairs should be allowed in the park. Maybe some people abuse this; kid too old, injury faked, and maybe some people could be more careful when driving them around, but on the whole, they belong in the park, even if they can be an inconvenience to other park goers. Work around them. Happiest place on earth! Improvise. Leave them a wide berth.

Or, in the case of Kid on Shoulders, find another spot.

Because, like I said, the park might be for the kids in us all, but at its core I really think it’s a place for actual kids. Plus, those fireworks are in the sky. Sure, your view of a parade may be unfairly blocked, but if you’re having trouble seeing the sky where you are, I suggest finding higher ground.

I understand some arguments that the parents are only thinking of themselves and their own child’s happiness. But when I see a parent and kid in preparation stance for a chicken fight, I think of them and their happiness, too.

Perhaps it would be more polite for the parent to check his or her surroundings and then ask, “Hey, does anyone mind if little Suzie sits on my shoulders for a few minutes? She can’t see. I won’t keep her up there the entire time, but it would really mean a lot to us if she could get a clear view for a moment.” Yeah, catch you flies with a widdle bit of honey.

If the Dad were asking me, and he were Southern, he could toss in a little ‘Darlin’, and I’d probably offer to let them both perch atop my shoulders.

Man, I love it when Southerners say ‘Darlin’’.

[cstephens]

I like to imagine the Dad putting his son up on his shoulders is at the park once a year, or once every few years, or only there that one time.

I imagine that happens a lot, but then, I also consider the view of the people they're blocking. In the case of Sunday night, my husband and I were there with a friend, her daughter and her 6-year-old granddaughter. The daughter and granddaughter are from out of state. The daughter hasn't been to Disneyland in at least more than 7 years, and it was the granddaughter's first visit to Disneyland. So while I get that the Dad wants his son to see the fireworks well, I don't think that should be at the expense of my friend's 6-year-old granddaughter. If they had said something before hand, we could have asked them not to have the son hoisted up or maybe tried to arrange something else, though at that point, there wasn't really anywhere else for her to go where she'd be able to see. But, the dad didn't pick his son up until the lights went off. No warning.

[flippyshark]

Back when I used to work the Sorcery In The Sky fireworks at the Disney-MGM Studios, I sometimes had guests ask me to talk to other guests who had children on their shoulders, never an easy task. My approach, if it seemed like it would really be a problem, was to suggest that parents hold the children beside them, like a bag of groceries. My tag line was "If your kids eyes are level with your own, your kid can see just as well as you can." I'd say this suggestion was gladly accepted a little less than half the time. I tried to make this a general announcement to large groups of people, rather than targeting just a specific family. Sometimes, this at least sparked awareness or got guests to work things out amongst themselves.

Approaching just one particular dad with kid is almost certainly doomed to failure, because the parent is likely to feel singled out. (Because that is the case.) Such a person will almsot always point out that lots of others are doing it, so why don't I go talk to them.

My experience is that wherever big crowds of people gather to watch something, that is just the way of things. That's why I watch parades and fireworks from a distance. (Well, that and I just despise being in the middle of a crowd.)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

But we were taught to not inconvenience others. We didn't shout in restaurants, talk in movies, or block other people's fireworks views. And if we weren't of an age to accomplish those things successfully, they were saved for later. And we DID do them later, so we weren't really deprived of anything consequential.

But we did learn that we weren't "owed" anything, including a fireworks view.
This kind of thing is a page right out of my parents' book. We may have been indulged in many ways, but never at the expense of strangers. We NEVER threw tantrums in public and weren't taken places that we couldn't handle. I guess it's just that my parents let us "handle" certain things earlier.

Sorry to have judged your parents so harshly....seems they did right by you. And just for the record, I believe my father wouldn't put us on his shoulders in front of others....I think. I know I wouldn't support that myself, and would go with the "grocery bag" that Flippyshark mentioned.

There, back on topic and everything. :)

[Kevy Baby]

My approach, if it seemed like it would really be a problem, was to suggest that parents hold the children beside them, like a bag of groceries.Here's the problem with that: kids can be freakin' heavy! I was at the park Sunday night with some freinds and their children (6, 4, and 7 months). The four-year-old is a moose: he weighs 60 pounds already!!! (And he isn't fat at all: he is SOLID.) While not officially, Susan and I are Aunt and Uncle to these kids, so the father and I took turns trying to hold the kids up on our sides. But at 60 pounds, there was no way I could hold that dead weight for very long (I am scared when he grows up: he is big AND smart :eek: ).

However, I would never had put these kids on my shoulder. But that is my personal choice. I would not begrudge someone putting their kid on their shoulders right in front of me. Granted, I wouldn't be real thrilled about it, but I would rather a child be happy. I can shift or make other adjustments.

Conversely, I always check behind me to see if there are small children who might not be able to see. I will move or squat or something to make sure they see.

[sleepyjeff]

This topic is on EVERY single Disney board I belong too..............Are the fireworks really that low that this is such a hot topic???

Will they still have this show a couple of years from now when the crowds(hopefully) watching the show diminish a little?

[CoasterMatt]

They could solve this problem by aiming some low level mortars at the kids mounted up on peoples shoulders... :evil:

That would take guest interaction to a new level

[Matterhorn Fan]

I never got to sit on my dad's shoulders, and I still have fond memories of Disneyland as a child.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Are the fireworks really that low that this is such a hot topic???


Well, It's not so much that the fireworks are low, for the most part they aren't. Rather, there is a lot more to the show than just fireworks. The castle is an integral part of the show and if you can't see it, you are missing a lot.

[mousepod]

A very nice debate!
Here's what I think: It's wonderful for parents to want to give their children the opportunity to look "over the crowd" and have the best view of any parade or fireworks. However, parents that stake out a great spot for themselves before hoisting their child up on their shoulders are being rude. Whether in the front or back of the crowd, the "shouldered" child will have a fantastic view. If a dad wants to increase his height to seven feet, he's going to have to do it in the back, just as a gracious seven-foot-tall person would step back and let shorter folks stand in front. I have a lot more respect for a dad who chooses to sacrifice his view for his child than one who chooses to sacrifice my view for both of them.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

What MBC said.
Will they still have this show a couple of years from now when the crowds(hopefully) watching the show diminish a little?Fantasmic has continued to pull immense crowds for the last 12 years - right up until this new fireworks show came about - and that's only because you a have to be in the hub to see this one.

[Kevy Baby]

As an adult, I like to be on the shoulders of children for the fireworks.

[Name]

My opinion, who cares, their children, and yes the 7 and younger children do know what fireworks are and are most fascinated by them too. Its Disneyland for christs sake, the land designed for parents to take their kids to that the parents can enjoy as well. Sorry, but in my opinion, if you are an adult(18+) and without children, then you are really not the targeted market for Disneyland in the first place. But I guess its OK for a 2 to 3 foot kids view to be blocked so that all teh 30 somethings can have unobstructed views.

sorry for the possible snarkiness, seems I am in a pissy mood this A.M.

[Prudence]

If you are so obsessed with making it kid-focused, then how about all the kids who are too big to be hoisted up on daddy's shoulders, or whose daddies aren't strong and able-bodied enough to lift them? And who at least saw SOMETHING over 6 foot heads, but whose view is utterly obliterated by 8 ft monsters?

Actually, those are the kids I feel sorry for. Those are the kids that are young enough to still be truly touched by magic, old enough to treasure the memories forever, too big to sit on shoulders, and too short to see.

[And gee, guess I'd better cancel those future travel plans. Didn't know I had to get knocked up to be a valued customer. Thanks for reminding me that I'm only important for my uterus.]

[Name]

:shrug: while Disney is created for children of all ages, I believe that it is the youngest of the children(over 2 y.o.) that are most impacted by all things Disney. I know that the most impactful memories I have of visiting the parks are my earliest memories. Any visits to the parks for me now are just a trigger to remember those memories in more detail. So I truly believe anything that can enhance a young childs experience more has more value then my desire for the best views and will sacrifice my view for such an experience to be had.

[mousepod]

I hear what you're saying. I've been to numerous kids-related shows (at Disney Parks and otherwise) where the policy is to let all of the youngsters up front in front of all of the adults. At the Pocahontas show at DAK, for example, the first several rows are reserved just for kids. That's cool.
I think that at any event that's geared toward kids (or even "children of all ages"), it's just plain courteous to allow wee ones to get in front of you.
However, if a kid's eyes need to be 7 or 8 feet off the ground to experience the show, the parent beneath the kid should step back and let the other children (and everyone under 7 feet tall) to see the darn show. Small kids in front, giant kids in back. Seems simple.
By the way, I'll bet that the current fireworks show, which appears to be nostalgia-based, is geared for grown-ups, too.

[Not Afraid]

By the way, I'll bet that the current fireworks show, which appears to be nostalgia-based, is geared for grown-ups, too.

BINGO!

MAGNIFICATION anyone? Anyone under 20 would not know that reference. (Actually, probably 24 or so). And that's just one of the many.

[Prudence]

BINGO!

MAGNIFICATION anyone? Anyone under 20 would not know that reference. (Actually, probably 24 or so). And that's just one of the many.


Oooh! Perfect point! I wish I'd thought of that!

[Gn2Dlnd]

I'm finally going to weigh in on this and I don't like to. I think it's a topic that verges on trolling.

First off, most of us, when I run into you in the Park, have some kids around and manage to arrange the grown-ups in a way that the kids can see. Nobody hoists the kids up on their shoulders. If the view is slightly obstructed, it is for the adults as well. If little Johnny can't see the ducks projected on the Castle, that's life.

Second, this is a flawed show. Ever since Light Magic, they've had these shows that cause people to try to cram themselves into one specific area of the Park. It's fine for Fantasmic, but I dislike it for all the fireworks shows since "Believe."

Third, and lastly, STFU. When I was a kid, if we wanted to see the Electrical Parade without someone standing in front of us, we found a place on the curb around 7 PM. That's right, 7 PM, for a show that didn't begin until 9. Fireworks always followed immediately thereafter, you merely needed to step into the street and look toward the Castle. If you were at the end of Main Street, you could see Tinkerbell, if not, you didn't. Nobody's "magic" was destroyed.

I'm short (and fat, and proud of that), and so is my mom. For Mother's Day, we found ourselves a nice place to lean against the flowerbed railings on the Castle side of the hub. Everybody in front of us had to sit. If I could have gotten a place on the curb, I would have taken that. Is there anything preventing people from looking at the freakin' free map they got when they walked through the turnstile, asking a few castmembers some questions, and figuring out where they can, with their particular group's special needs, see the fireworks while causing minimal inconvenience for those around them?

Special note to the "entitled": Get a clue. Check your surroundings. If you're short, don't stand behind tall people. Find a family with a weelchair. Find other short people. Offer to let kids stand in front of you. Stop whining and ask the family of basketball players if it's ok to squeeze in front of them. Don't do it 5 minutes before the show, that's rude. If you really must see an unobsructed view of everything, do it the way other people do, and plan ahead. If someone is sitting on the ground, don't assume they're not going to stand up and suddenly block your view. Same with people who clearly haven't arranged space for their kids to see. Ask ahead, offer to trade places, or simply move.

I hope I've helped make your day more magical.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I hope I've helped make your day more magical.

You have. That was almost better than a sexy tongue kiss, my friend. Thanks!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

:shrug: while Disney is created for children of all ages, I believe that it is the youngest of the children(over 2 y.o.) that are most impacted by all things Disney. I know that the most impactful memories I have of visiting the parks are my earliest memories. Any visits to the parks for me now are just a trigger to remember those memories in more detail. So I truly believe anything that can enhance a young childs experience more has more value then my desire for the best views and will sacrifice my view for such an experience to be had.[Devil's Advocate]
One could argue that a child of 10 years old is going to remember far more of his trip than a child of 3, and that therefore, they should get the very best day of anyone.
[/Advocate]

The point about the fireworks show being made for adults is a VERY good one.

Gn2 kicks ass. :D

[Gn2Dlnd]

You have. That was almost better than a sexy tongue kiss, my friend. Thanks!

Why Miss Eliza, I do declare! :blush:

[Not Afraid]

Stop following me!

[Gn2Dlnd]

Stop being a giantess and blocking my view!

[Kevy Baby]

Stop being a giantess and blocking my view!It's really bad when she lets €uroMeinke sit on her shoulders for fireworks!

[Not Afraid]

It's really bad when she lets €uroMeinke sit on her shoulders for fireworks!

You know.......I should mention this to my chiropractor.