Anti-flag burning amendment passes first hurdle

[Ghoulish Delight]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8318974/

The House has passed the amendment by the required 2/3 majority. All signs seem to point to the senate to do the same. After that, it's on to the states.

What a blatant disregard of speech. Disagree with it all you want, but to ban it? Of course, passing it as an amendment automatically makes it Constitutional, by definition. But that doesn't mean it should be done, and it doesn't change the fact that it goes completely against the spirit of the first amendment. Is the patriotism of these people so weak that it's threatened by what happens to a piece of cloth? Is their faith in this country's ideals so shaky that they need to silence a method of expressing a dissenting opinion?

Magician Penn and Teller performed one of the most moving acts I've ever seen that last time this idiotic amendment made the rounds. They burnt a flag saying (I'm paraphrasing, I don't recall the exact script), "We're doing this not because we don't like what this flag stands for, but precisely because we love what this flag stands for and that we have the freedom to do this." And, to alegorically, metaphorically, and magically drive their point home, they, of course, produce said same flag, undamaged, to signify that burning a flag does no damage to what that flag stands for.

If and when this assault on freedom of expression reaches the state polls, I'd urge all patriotic and freedom loving Americans to vote against it.

[SacTown Chronic]

But Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said, “If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents.”

Amen, brother.

[Prudence]

I predict that this will pass. Fully and completely.

Because the American people have apparently decided that they no longer want liberty. They've grown up in a privileged society, so far removed from true tyranny that gosh, a benevolent dictatorship doesn't sound that bad, does it?

Gosh, there could be rules and laws to make sure your neighbors didn't paint their house the wrong color, or invite any of THOSE people over to play in the neighborhood pool, or park any older model cars where they might actually be seen.

And everyone could be monitored to make sure they didn't have any bad habits that might have a social cost down the line. After all, if we erradicate junk food, we'll erradicate disease! If you get cancer or diabetes, you must have been sneaking in some black market junk food and you deserve your fate.

Personally, I long for the days when we can rid our country of our most pressing scourge -- activist judges. All those black-robed commies giving aid and comfort to our enemies by support flag desecration. Why, let's impeach them! Let's show them what we do to national traitors!

Let's go back to those Puritan ideals this country was founded on. Let's be the shining city on a hill, the model of a fully functional Christian theocracy. Let us return to mandatory church attendance and public shaming.

And with those activist judges out of the picture, let's bring back trial by ordeal! After all, God loves this country best and will spare the lives of all TRUE innocents.

It truly is better when everyone knows their place. And the only people afraid of unannounced surveillance or national ID cards are criminals. After all, if you just follow the very simple rules you'll have nothing to worry about! Just speak when spoken to from this script of pre-approved phrases.

Let us scrape away the stain of the sin they call "progress." Because progressive thinking is permissive thinking. And if people can do whatever they want, they they'll do things we don't like. They'll talk to people we don't approve of. They'll say things we don't want to hear.

And that would just be un-American.

[innerSpaceman]

You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to Prudence again.


.................................................. ...........................................

[Cadaverous Pallor]

You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to Prudence again.

You continue to improve my views of lawyers. (Oh right, there is iSm too...;) )

[Prudence]

Just wait...tomorrow I'll tell you how I *really* feel!

[FEJ]

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 8

§ 8. Respect for flag

Release date: 2005-05-17

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

Source: US Flag Code (http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html)


so then that would become illegal also?

I find it more disrespectful when others fail to follow the other codes, like wearing upon clothing/uniforms of sports teams, or a dirty flag that has been out since September 11th.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ah the flag code. AKA, "The Guide to Flag Idolatry". Interesting thing about the flag code. It's not a criminal offense to break it.

[sleepyjeff]

I have a deep hatred for anyone who burns the American Flag.....it shows a complete lack of respect for those who died for it and in most cases is done out of hatred towards this country..........but a ban on burning it doesn't sit too well with me either.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Thing is, I totally dig the flag code. I respect the flag as much as anyone. But that's my own POV - I don't think it should be the law.

The idea of jailing people for doing something to a piece of cloth is ridiculous to me, even if I wouldn't do it.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I have a deep hatred for anyone who burns the American Flag.....it shows a complete lack of respect for those who died for it and in most cases is done out of hatred towards this country..........but a ban on burning it doesn't sit too well with me either.Nobody died for the flag. They died for the citizens of America, for our way of life, for freedom.

This is yet another issue I won't be discussing with my Air Force brother who does Color Guard duties...:(

[Ghoulish Delight]

..........but a ban on burning it doesn't sit too well with me either."doesn't sit to well"? Sorry to be blunt, but it should sit about as well as a ban on saying, "I hate America." A sentiment I disagree with with all my heart, but the idea of making it unconstitutional to say it sickens me to no end. Talk of banning flag burning gives me the same feeling.

[lindyhop]

Someone please explain to me why a symbolic piece of cloth should get protection in the Constitution when equal protection for women (the Equal Rights Amendment) isn't in the Constitution yet?

[wendybeth]

The disgust I feel by people who intentionally desecrate the American flag is only exceeded by the contempt I feel for this latest attack on our rights. I feel like I'm in a weird time warp, and it's 1955 all over again. Before you know it, we'll be required to sign loyalty oaths and have our SS numbers tattooed on our foreheads.

Why on earth is the Republican party so hellbent on rewriting the Constitution?

[Ghoulish Delight]

And before anyone drags out the tired, "Well, there are laws against hate speech" argument, those laws 1) only apply in situations where it is obvious that the speech will result in volatile, violent reacions and 2) does not discriminate against any single people or view. It's equally illegal to walk into a meeting of the American Socialist part and scream, "Die commie bastards!" as it is to stand on the floor of the NY Stock Exchange and declare, "You capitalist pigs will rot in hell!" This ban specifically targets those that seek to speak out against the government, an the very act that the First Amendement, more than anything, was written to protect.

[FEJ]

Ah the flag code. AKA, "The Guide to Flag Idolatry". Interesting thing about the flag code. It's not a criminal offense to break it.


Yes, but it seems those thet Idolize it are the ones who most blatently disregard the code for convience of how much red, white and blue they can get on their car, home or person..

I truly believe the bigger ones "God Bless America" display on the back of their car, the bigger a$$hole they are while driving.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I propose we make these (http://www.funkytrunks.com/shop/images/BC-USA.jpg) unconstitutional.

[Name]

(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

seems to me every military funeral color guard violates this part of the flag code during every funeral when they place the spent shells from the gun salute into the flag for delivery to the next of kin.

and on the flag burning amendment, guess I will just have to make up some flags that look like the US flag, but are still distincly different(7white, 6 red stripes, purple background with 100 stars) and burn those in protest.

[FEJ]

I propose we make these (http://www.funkytrunks.com/shop/images/BC-USA.jpg) unconstitutional.


Maybe..

but definatly for These (http://www.brieftales.com/uploads/store_items/small/1556F807DE434A14B96EC864CCD4B5DC.jpg)

***Caution..Disturbing Image***

[Not Afraid]

Disturbing????? I need a closer look. ;)

[€uroMeinke]

I guess we'll just have to burn crosses

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Why on earth is the Republican party so hellbent on rewriting the Constitution?

And the worst part, for me, is that none of this fvcking shocks me anymore. The Republicans are defecating on our free speech? *looks at watch* Yup, that's right about on time.

To quote a movie I don't like, but which is apropos: "so this is how liberty dies..."

[Gn2Dlnd]

***Caution..Disturbing Image***

*Commodore adjusts monocle*

[Scrooge McSam]

You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to Prudence again.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I love that Pen and Teller did that, GD. I didn’t know about it. Thanks. Plus, I kinda love any duo where one of them names his kid Moxie Crimefighter. Seriously, celebrities name their kids the dumbest effin’ things possible, but I just LOVE that one. Crimefighter! Awesome.

Anyway….

The flag represents something to different people. And it should. It can represent the American ideal/dream, which is what it means to my father. After September 11th, when every war mongering “Axis if Evil” mouth sputtering person was pasting flags all over their houses, vehicles, clothing, etc., I was horrified when my father, too, displayed the flag outside of his house. I said, “People are going to think you support what Bush is doing.” Which my father didn’t and doesn’t. He can’t stand that Administration at all. He’s the most liberal 72 year old ex-army dude I know. He just turned to me and said, “Fvck what other people think. I know what I think. And I’m supporting the idea of what this country is supposed to be and what I know it could be. I’m supporting the troops who have to go through this. I don’t love what’s happening right now, but I still love this country.” We argued for a while, because I agreed with what he was saying, but I still thought that his show of support was too much the same as those with whom he vehemently disagrees, and therefore his actual feelings and opinions were being accidentally misrepresented. We came to see it the same way, I guess, but the flag stayed put.

The flag could also symbolize everything someone hates about their government, and so I could understand why a person would burn one in protest.

In high school, when I could chose whether to stand or remain seated for the Pledge of Allegiance I chose to remain seated. And I was also grateful to live in a country where I was given that choice. I had problems with the inclusion of “God” in the pledge, and I wasn’t comfortable, at such a young age, pledging my allegiance to anything I didn’t know enough about. I’m not hugely patriotic or even nationalistic. I think “patriotic” is a dangerous word. I’m more interested in the world as a whole, and how we all fit together. I’d much rather have a flag that looked like a world map. I feel a strange connection to California as something that I belong to and that belongs equally to me, and for that reason I am actually moved and tickled every time I see the California flag. Or maybe that’s just ‘cause it has a friggin’ bear on it. I love it. I’d proudly fly that on my front lawn, if I had one. I saw a girl in NYC with the CA flag tattooed on her calf and I wanted to hug her.

But the American flag? I look at it and I think about all the tax dollars that go towards the bloated military budget. I think about the problems surrounding funding for public education. And though, like my father, I do feel a sort of love for this country because of what I believe Democracy represents, and what I think it could be if I really thought we had one. (And I don’t just blame the Man, or politicians and corporations, for it’s a grassroots government, and it’s the people’s fault if we’re not vigilant in our participation at all levels – the voting, the holding officials accountable, the not tolerating any bull****, because we seem to tolerate it quite a lot - myself *totally* included.)

Anyway, these kinds of debates often leave me feeling ineffectual and all kinds of stupid. Do I love this country exactly as it is? No. Do I love what I think this country for what I believe it could be? Yes. So, to me, that means I love my country. Though I still make no pledges.

Still, instead of the USA flag, I’d much rather hang this Langston Huges poem on my door:

Let America be America Again

Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?
Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.
The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--
Who made America,
Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--
The steel of freedom does not stain.
From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,
We must take back our land again,
America!

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

[Scrooge McSam]

“Fvck what other people think. I know what I think. And I’m supporting the idea of what this country is supposed to be and what I know it could be. I’m supporting the troops who have to go through this. I don’t love what’s happening right now, but I still love this country.”

Hurrah for your Dad! I enjoyed the flag. I loved the singularity of purpose that Americans can summon when situations call for it. It was the symbols that started coming later that started getting my goat. Every time I see a "Support the Troops" sticker on a 9mpg behemoth it just.. I can't talk about it :)

I got accused of treason yesterday at lunch. "Actively working against our government and our troops" was what she said. I played it cool. And I know nobody believes that, but anyway.

It was about Durbin. Big surprise, right? And now today, this (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1119477015095&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes). I really and truly don't know what to do anymore.

I do feel a sort of love for this country because of what I believe Democracy represents, and what I think it could be if I really thought we had one. (And I don’t just blame the Man, or politicians and corporations, for it’s a grassroots government, and it’s the people’s fault if we’re not vigilant in our participation at all levels – the voting, the holding officials accountable, the not tolerating any bull****, because we seem to tolerate it quite a lot - myself *totally* included.)

But, I'm gonna keep trying. ;) Come on, it'll be fun

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

But, I'm gonna keep trying. ;) Come on, it'll be fun

Okay, but only because it's you who's asking.