Do YOU believe in space aliens?

[scaeagles]

With all the Tom Cruise and scientology stuff in the news lately, most recently him saying he believes in intelligent life on other planets, I was wondering how many do.

I can't fault him for believing it - I find it hard to believe that we would be the only intelligent life with the billions of stars within our own galaxy and the millions of other galaxies out there.

However, it's moot to me. I don't think we'll never meet any. These other stars are tens or hundreds of light years away at least, and based on Einstein's theories, travel at light speed is simply not possible. I won't bother to go into them for those that don't know them, but it isn't going to happen. We cannot overcome physical laws with new technology.

[Matterhorn Fan]

I'm sick of Tom Cruise's "pick me! pick me!" attempts at staying in the news.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Odds are that there is other life out there. I also tend to doubt however that we will ever actually encounter any of it or have any sort of proof that it exists. Not in my lifetime anyway.

As far as Tom Cruise goes:

Unbelievable that the media thinks that there is anything newsworthy about this story. Unlike last weeks interview which, if nothing else, shows TC to be an arrogant ass who has no understanding of mental health issues, there is nothing shocking or even interesting about the fact that TC believes there is life on other planets.

[Ghoulish Delight]

While Einstein's basic theories of relativity pretty conclusively prove that linear travel at speeds greater than the speed of light is impossible, his further theories about gravity wells and the fact that space is NOT linear when mass and gravity are introduced leave the question of interstellar travel far more open ended than at first glance. Steven Hawking said it best as he visited the set of Star Trek: The Next Generation and commented as he passed the engineering deck set, "I'm working on that."

The odds are slim that there isn't SOME other form of life out there. Possibly intelligent. But even so, and even assuming the plausibility of interstellar travel, there are more stars and solar systems than we could possibly ever explore, the odds of getting out there at all are slim, then the odds of picking the right star system out of the billions available are even slimmer.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Uh, what Greg said.

And, it's no surprise that T.C. believes in aliens when one considers the Scientologist belief that we *are* transplanted aliens.

For a heavily biased but funny look at Scientology, go here:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=13157

[BarTopDancer]

I believe it is highly egotistical to believe we are the only intelligent life the galaxy let alone the universe. I also believe that it is possible for us to meet this life if not by our technology by theirs. I think the government knows more than they're telling us, and I believe that there is something at Area 51. I don't believe the stories of abudction from Po-Dunk, IN, but I do believe some of the unexplained lights in the sky are not from us or this planet.

As for Tom Cruise, maybe it's because he hasn't been on TV much before but he is SO ANNOYING! And that was before he went off on his ignorant tangent about mental health issues. He 'knows psychology' because he read an old outdated book. "Ritlian is now a street drug' ummm Der, it's a form of speed, and has been a street drug for decades. :rolleyes:

[scaeagles]

It is certainly true that gravity bends space. The problem then becomes creating something massive enough - as in a black hole - to curve space in a usable fashion. And then if that were possible, there would not be enough energy available to escape the gravity required to created the curved space, so anything attempting to use such curved space would be crushed.

Unless I'm missing something. Probably am.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't buy government cover-ups for a second. Among other things, IF an alien race were intelligent enough to have technology to reach us, how in the hell would any government on this planet be close to intelligent enough to conceal that?

Just as you're probably missing something, Leo, so am I. I don't have an answer as to the specific dynamics of it, but it's an open ended enough question that it's being research seiously, not just written off as impossible.

[mousepod]

I'm with scaeagles on this one (except for your unfortunate political views, you're an all right guy!). I'm a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who'd love to believe in all sorts of supernatural stuff, aliens included, but I find myself more in the Carl Sagan / James Randi camp most of the time... like Randi says, "I believe in the possibility of aliens, but not in 'aliens'."

[scaeagles]

Well then, mousepod, I will need to think of some way to offend you socially as well!

[Moonliner]

With all the Tom Cruise and scientology stuff in the news lately, most recently him saying he believes in intelligent life on other planets, I was wondering how many do.

I can't fault him for believing it - I find it hard to believe that we would be the only intelligent life with the billions of stars within our own galaxy and the millions of other galaxies out there.

However, it's moot to me. I don't think we'll never meet any. These other stars are tens or hundreds of light years away at least, and based on Einstein's theories, travel at light speed is simply not possible. I won't bother to go into them for those that don't know them, but it isn't going to happen. We cannot overcome physical laws with new technology.

Warning - This is a bit of a nit picky post, so please deal with it. :)

1. Some of the stars are as close as 4 Light Years. (but not many)
2. Current best estimates of the number of stars in our galaxy is ~100 Billion
3. Current best estimates put the number of galaxies at ~240 Billion
4. We cannot overcome physical laws: Gravity? 240 Tones of metal should not be able to stay in the sky, yet they fly over my house every day. We don't break the laws, but we do find ways around them. In time C will fall just like all the other "It can never happen" things have (powered flight, sound barrier, moon landing etc..).
5. While Einstein was very good for his day, time marches on. All of his work has been enhanced since his death. Even the classic e=mc^2 has evolved (http://www.calphysics.org/haisch/sciences.html).

In today’s world where teleportation (http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/) is real, light can be stopped in it's tracks (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/01.24/01-stoplight.html) and the dead can be brought back to life (http://www.menshealth.co.uk/news/story.phtml?id=4125) how can you believe in a cosmic speed limit?

Ohh and yes. I do think there is other life out there. The fact that they have NOT come here is definitive proof that they are also intelligent.

[Ghoulish Delight]

light can be stopped in it's tracks (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/01.24/01-stoplight.html)Hmm, nifty as that may be, I don't see how it contradicts Einstein in the least. Einstein's theory maintains that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant. No one has evern argued that it reamins constant through all media, and as a matter of fact, it's easily proveable that it doesn't (have a prizm handy?). While it's incredibly impressive that they managed to create a medium through which light travels part way, then stops, it's not contrary to what we already know.

[Moonliner]

I don't buy government cover-ups for a second.



I'm with GD on this one... Well sort of. If you think about 1947, A Podunk farmer, and an out in the sticks air force base I can easily see a cover-up. The farmer found some Mylar (not officially invented until '52) or Aluminum and reported it as a "flying disk". Mr. Air force hick, under orders to keep the new secret balloon/dirigible/whatever hushed up says to himself "Flying disk eh?" Yea that works and runs with it. Having no idea the storm it would cause. Now that's a cover up I can believe.

[Moonliner]

contradicts Einstein

Contradicts? What you think I want to get hung? I said enhanced.

[Moonliner]

Hmm, nifty as that may be, I don't see how it contradicts Einstein in the least. Einstein's theory maintains that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant. No one has evern argued that it reamins constant through all media, and as a matter of fact, it's easily proveable that it doesn't (have a prizm handy?). While it's incredibly impressive that they managed to create a medium through which light travels part way, then stops, it's not contrary to what we already know.

15 Years ago (ok, 20..) my physics prof's were quite SURE you would never be able to stop light. Slow it down in diffrent substances sure but stop? No way not possible. <-- Notes from actual conversation.

Oh and one bit of trivia, Einstein himself NEVER said FTL travel was impossible. That thought was added by others.

[scaeagles]

Moonliner - interesting info, but a couple of comments -

The stars that are 4 light years away, to my knowledge, have no evidence of planets orbiting them. We are currently finding many planets around stars much farther away. This is why I started at 10 light years away.

We do not defy gravity in flight. Instead, we apply physics of create lift (Bernoulli, if I am spelling his name correctly) and can generate enough thrust to overcome the gravity of earth. In terms of curving space enough to travel to other areas of the galaxy faster, we are talking about gravitational forces millions of times more powerful than our sun, and I do not believe we will ever harness that type of energy.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It is possible that there are aliens. Is it worth thinking about? No, they are too far away to affect us.

I'm a sci-fi fan and a hard science fan....and I've never felt the need to think twice on the subject.

Now if you want to talk about the possibilities of us traveling at or near the speed of light, it's definitely intriguing stuff. Perhaps I'm waiting for that to be achieved before I consider other stuff.

I'm more interested in mining colonies on other planets. Some project that would pay for itself, with people that we could communicate with...that would be awesome and is much more tangible in my mind.

[Moonliner]

We do not defy gravity in flight. Instead, we apply physics of create lift (Bernoulli, if I am spelling his name correctly) and can generate enough thrust to overcome the gravity of earth. In terms of curving space enough to travel to other areas of the galaxy faster, we are talking about gravitational forces millions of times more powerful than our sun, and I do not believe we will ever harness that type of energy.

May I be allowed to quote my own earlier post?

We don't break the laws, but we do find ways around them.

So may I say we are agreed?


As for the planets, most (but not all (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/aas_earthsize_020329.html)) of the objects discovered to date are Jupiter or larger in size. I don't think it is as yet safe to rule out earth type planets around the closer stars.

[scaeagles]

Well, of course. I wasn't meaning to sound as if you thought we were turning gravity off, but merely stating I do not think it will ever be possible to harness the type of energy necessary to overcome the gravity necessary to curve space.

[Name]

Aliens, sure, why not, but govt conspiracy, highly doubtful, the govt isn't that good at keeping secrets. I don't think that Einstein ever consider FTL travel, don't think it was something that he was thinking about. But theories are just those, theories, tried tested, but can never be proven to 100%(to become a law of physics such as gravity, etc) and are valid until they are proven wrong. So who knows what could become possible with future research.

[Name]

Well, of course. I wasn't meaning to sound as if you thought we were turning gravity off, but merely stating I do not think it will ever be possible to harness the type of energy necessary to overcome the gravity necessary to curve space.
You just need some spice, then some mutants can fold space so you can travel vast distances without really moving.

[€uroMeinke]

Aliens? Eh, I can accept that possibility - as for physics, warp speed, all that - it all presumes that our laws of physics/science apply to alien life forms. Who knows what creatures exist in other dimensions monkey boy.

But I'm a skeptic at heart, even if I liked Tom Cruise in Eyes Wide Shut and Mission Impossible.

[SacTown Chronic]

Tom Cruise is still alive? WTF?

[Morrigoon]

I believe in the likelihood of aliens. The jury's out on whether they've ever come here.

On the subject of Tom Cruise, however.... I don't believe it. I think Tom Cruise's existence is part of some government cover-up ;)

[Kels]

Do I think it's possible for alien life forms to exist? Sure, anything is possible. Do I believe that there actually ARE alien life forms out there? Nope.

CP said it best...
....and I've never felt the need to think twice on the subject.

[scaeagles]

But I'm a skeptic at heart, even if I liked Tom Cruise in Eyes Wide Shut and Mission Impossible.

MI:1 - fun. MI:2 - sucked big time. MI:3 - I just hope they can write an MI movie in which some good guy doesn't turn into the bad guy. Gets old. Graves turned in 1, the former agent in 2.

[surfinmuse]

What a great discussion, thanks for starting it, scaeagles. Thought I'd offer my $0.02...

I do believe there's other life out there, maybe super intelligent, maybe not.

My thought is that a species (or planet, etc.) advanced enough for space travel of this magnitude to visit us, won't actually bother doing so. To loosely paraphrase a line from the new War of the Worlds movie, it's like a non-relationship between us humans and maggots: they do their thing, we do ours, we don't feel compelled to learn their language and communicate with them on their level.

On the other hand, if there was a species out there that's kinda like us, then they won't have have the means to travel to us anyway, so once again: they do their thing, we do ours (yes we have SETI, and unmanned remotes, etc.... and who knows what the next lifetime will bring?).

Thanks again for the discussion, been my pleasure reading.

[innerSpaceman]

Today's preternatural is tomorrow's ho-hum natural. With all the ways we are discovering, even now in early mankind history of 2005, of working with laws of physics (as we presently understand them) to beat time and space and gravity and thus achieve interstellar, faster-than-light, or space-doesn't-matter travel ... I have to assume that one or more of the trillions upon trillions of civilizations in this universe or one of the many alternate universes will come up with a way of doing it.

Not that Earth is going to be a chosen visitation point for 5 societies out of all the societies in 250 billion galaxies of a hundred billion stars apiece (in this universe alone), but not only is extraterrestrial life an absolute given ... the ability to travel from one inhabited planet to another is impossible only to those with hubris to think we now know it all.

Moonliner has thoughtfully provided links to chinks in the cosmic-speed-limit armor. And here we are in only 2005. We are but children.



I don't really believe Earth has been visited by E.T.s, but there is something going on with the alien-abduction phenomena. It may not be aliens per se, and the vast majority of this stuff may be hoaxes or misunderstandings ... but there is so much of this stuff, so similarly reported through the ages, and some of it with such forceful crediblity (other than the conclusion that it must be green spacemen) that I am convinced there is something quite real behind the phenomena. (As, similarly, there is something quite real about the ghost and haunting phenomena that may or may not be actual spirits of the dead).




Oh, and I hate Tom Cruise in all but a handful of movies (which movies really surprise me, cause I frelling hate Tom Cruise).

[Tref]

Its not so much that I believe in the space aliens, but its that the space aliens -- stopped believing in themselves.
You can do it little guys. I got faith in ya!

[Morrigoon]

Here's an interesting tidbit: Supposedly space travel DOES have an effect on time. The only reports of it I've seen have amounted to mere seconds of difference, but there is documented evidence of this phenomenon. What do you think of that and how that could affect our future ability to search for life?

[Moonliner]

My thought is that a species (or planet, etc.) advanced enough for space travel of this magnitude to visit us, won't actually bother doing so. To loosely paraphrase a line from the new War of the Worlds movie, it's like a non-relationship between us humans and maggots: they do their thing, we do ours, we don't feel compelled to learn their language and communicate with them on their level.


My thought is that any alien visiting earth would be the interstellar equivalent of an Anthropologist. Grad students doing field studies and the like. As such they would certainly not hover over the white house and toot their horn. They would set up blinds and study us in our natural environment perhaps snatching a few specimens from deserted country roads or on Friday nights when they’ve had a bit too much space-juice turning the robo-surgeon loose to carve their initials on some local bovine livestock. As long as we don't have anything they need (like dilithium or Ben and Jerries) we should be left in peace to eventually blow ourselves up.

[Morrigoon]

Well, shoot. I can't find the link my friend once showed me about the time-space deal.

[Ghoulish Delight]

There's no supposedly about it. Time dilation (the slowing down of time for an object traveling at speed relative to an object at rest) is a central, and experimentally confirmed, component of Einstein's theory of relativity. It's what gives rise to the famed twim paradox.

It does pose some interesting issues. For example, let's assume that we satisfy ourselves with near-light speed travel. An astronaut could conceivably at those speeds reach another solar system 10 lightyears away (there are several that distance and closer). The good news: At those speeds, from the frame of reference of said astronaut, the distance will actually shrink (which is another way of expressing time dialation, I'm really still talking about the same effect), so it should take less than 10 years. The bad news...if it takes 8 years from the astronaut's perspective (16 total for the round trip), when he comes back, it will have been the full 20 years (okay, slightly longer if he's just under the speed of light).

As the distance increases, so does the gap. So there's a built in advantage and a built in disadvantage. The advantage is that the distances would be slightly more reachable than they'd appear from our perspective, allowing an astronaut to cross them in a fraction of the time that the measured distance might indicate. The disadvantage is that by the time the astronaut gets back, time on earth will have passed him by. He may have aged a couple years, while full generations have gone by at home.

[Tref]

My thought is that any alien visiting earth would be the interstellar equivalent of an Anthropologist. Grad students doing field studies and the like. As such they would certainly not hover over the white house and toot their horn. They would set up blinds and study us in our natural environment perhaps snatching a few specimens from deserted country roads or on Friday nights when they’ve had a bit too much space-juice turning the robo-surgeon loose to carve their initials on some local bovine livestock. As long as we don't have anything they need (like dilithium or Ben and Jerries) we should be left in peace to eventually blow ourselves up.

There's no supposedly about it. Time dilation (the slowing down of time for an object traveling at speed relative to an object at rest) is a central, and experimentally confirmed, component of Einstein's theory of relativity. It's what gives rise to the famed twim paradox.

It does pose some interesting issues. For example, let's assume that we satisfy ourselves with near-light speed travel. An astronaut could conceivably at those speeds reach another solar system 10 lightyears away (there are several that distance and closer). The good news: At those speeds, from the frame of reference of said astronaut, the distance will actually shrink (which is another way of expressing time dialation, I'm really still talking about the same effect), so it should take less than 10 years. The bad news...if it takes 8 years from the astronaut's perspective (16 total for the round trip), when he comes back, it will have been the full 20 years (okay, slightly longer if he's just under the speed of light).

As the distance increases, so does the gap. So there's a built in advantage and a built in disadvantage. The advantage is that the distances would be slightly more reachable than they'd appear from our perspective, allowing an astronaut to cross them in a fraction of the time that the measured distance might indicate. The disadvantage is that by the time the astronaut gets back, time on earth will have passed him by. He may have aged a couple years, while full generations have gone by at home.

Uh huh. My thoughts exactly. But here is the thing -- IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

[Ghoulish Delight]

For anyone who missed it the first time around, Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity 101 (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showpost.php?p=21888&postcount=48)

[scaeagles]

the ability to travel from one inhabited planet to another is impossible only to those with hubris to think we now know it all.

I always thought hubris was possessed by those who think man has the capacity to know it all. But that's beside the point.

The laws of physics, as we understand them, change all the time, as do most of the things we think we know about the makeup of the universe. I am not a physicist or a scientist, so I really know very little about such things beyond the traditional and widely accepted theories. Einstein was wrong on more than one occassion.

[Ghoulish Delight]

By the way, credit where credit is due. It was not Einstein, but in fact Albert Michelson and E.W. Morley who, in the 1880s, discovered that light travels at the same speed, independent of the observer's frame of reference, the launching point for Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

My above example of the astronaut can't be fully explained by the basics of the Special Theory of Relativity, because the Special Theory assumes no acceleration (it also assumes that either observer in the system has the "right" to consider themselves at rest). The actual mechanics are greatly complicated by acceleration and require the far more complex General Theory of Relativity.

And if you're looking for real experimental confirmation of time dilation, look up the "Muon Experiment".

[innerSpaceman]

And if you're looking for real experimental confirmation of time dilation, look up the "Muon Experiment".

Uh-oh, it sounds like the experiments where mad scientists cackle over the results, going "Muo ho heehee ho!"