Encouraging kids to read, Not!

[Moonliner]

How is this for ironic?

My wife and I are coordinating the fall reading incentive program for our kids elementary school. The kids read books keep track of their time and it gets posted on the “goal” board. A little friendly competition that the kids enjoy. Sounds simple right?

First the county has decreed that all elementary school kids need to read 12 books/year. So several parents suggested that we FORBID our students in the reading incentive program from reading longer books (like Harry Potter) because it would make it hard for them to meet that goal. Suggesting instead that we force them to read books from an “approved” list of titles like “Henry and Mudge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0689810059/qid=1121783781/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0841834-7972144?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)”. It’s hard to even count the number of ways that is just soooo wrong. Kids that are capable of reading “The Halfblood prince”, “The Hobbit” or Hank Aaron’s autobiography are not going to be interested in reading “Henry and Mudge”.

Then when we asked the school librarian to use a corner of the library for collecting the tally sheets twice a week before school. She refused the request because it would be “too disruptive”. Keep in mind that the Library is EMPTY at that hour. Seesch. Me thinks I feel he need to kick some administrative butt.

[cirquelover]

That seems crazy if you ask me!

For our reading program the only stipulation is that they read at their grade level or above. My son would be bored being forced to read "little kids" books. I think if a kid can read Harry and wants to, let them go for it. After all it's only one of the many books they will read throughout the year!

Shouldn't a librarian be encouraging the kids reading program, not throwing a wrench into it! Maybe it's because you are disrupting her quiet time before the chaos of the children :rolleyes:

[Prudence]

Better teach those kids when they're young that it's whether you win or lose, not how you play the game!

[Betty]

Bah - why don't they count how long they spend reading each day?
Such as

Half Blood Prince - 1/2 hour - 15 pages

Then they could read what they wanted to and still how it count. Make it however many pages or however long reading counts as "one book".

[scaeagles]

Well, moonliner, you know how librarians are. They don't want to do real work. :p :) ;)

I suspect that the parents who are complaining don't want their children to feel stupid if they are reading Henry and Mudge if other kids are reading War and Peace. E

[alphabassettgrrl]

I was one of those kids who was reading "real" books while the rest of the class skated on something as easy as possible. And I still finished first!

Let 'em read whatever they will! At least they're reading something.

I agree with the comment that the parents of the kids reading the baby books don't want to see it. They want to pretend their kid is doing as well as everybody else, though they're not.

[katiesue]

A friends school has a similar program but they have points for each book. The harder/longer the book the more points it's worth. That way the kids that are able to read the harder books are able to do so and get the same amount of points as they would have reading many shorter/easier books.

[mousepod]

Speaking as a non-parent (so far) but a proud nerd, I wonder why the big deal about incentivizing reading? It seems like a parent who instills the joy of reading in their child could also teach said child the ability to distinguish important goals like good grades, manners, and hygiene from less important ones, like how many books one reads when compared to other children in a limited geographic area. Obviously, I have no first-hand experience from the parents' POV, so I'm truly interested in the answer.

[Moonliner]

Well, moonliner, you know how librarians are. They don't want to do real work.

Well Scaeagles, it was nice to know you. Sorry about your early demise (once you know who reads that....). :eek:

[Moonliner]

Speaking as a non-parent (so far) but a proud nerd, I wonder why the big deal about incentivizing reading? It seems like a parent who instills the joy of reading in their child could also teach said child the ability to distinguish important goals like good grades, manners, and hygiene from less important ones, like how many books one reads when compared to other children in a limited geographic area. Obviously, I have no first-hand experience from the parents' POV, so I'm truly interested in the answer.

Some kids do need an additional push to get started reading, for the rest I'd compare it to a sport. Once in awhile it's fun to go head to head with other kids and see what you can do. The kids that come out on top of the reading program are just as proud as the kid that hits the game winning run.

[scaeagles]

Well Scaeagles, it was nice to know you. Sorry about your early demise (once you know who reads that....). :eek:

Who???? You mean there's a librarian who posts on this board????

[Matterhorn Fan]

Amazon says "Henry and Mudge" is for ages 4-8. "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" is supposedly for ages 9-12.

Are the 12-year-olds really going to get "points" for reading a book written for a 4-year-old?

[mousepod]

Some kids do need an additional push to get started reading, for the rest I'd compare it to a sport. Once in awhile it's fun to go head to head with other kids and see what you can do. The kids that come out on top of the reading program are just as proud as the kid that hits the game winning run.

Thanks. That makes sense.

[Moonliner]

Amazon says "Henry and Mudge" is for ages 4-8. "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" is supposedly for ages 9-12.

Are the 12-year-olds really going to get "points" for reading a book written for a 4-year-old?

Yup. Which is why I am disinclined to acquiesce to their demands.

[Prudence]

As a former geek child, I welcomed any opportunity to compete scholastically, rather than physically. Would those same parents encourage only letting kids walk laps, rather than run, because some can't run as fast or get as many laps done in the alloted time?

(Tangent: If I had to pay for every analogy used I would be so broke...)

[Morrigoon]

Maybe the competition should be for # of pages read?

[scaeagles]

As a former geek child, I welcomed any opportunity to compete scholastically, rather than physically. Would those same parents encourage only letting kids walk laps, rather than run, because some can't run as fast or get as many laps done in the alloted time?

AMEN! This is a world where some people are better at some things than others. Expecting others to be restricted in order to help the "self esteem" of those less gifted in a certain area helps no one. Those with the ability are held back, and those who simply aren't as good are made to think they are.

Well, a lot of times, they aren't. They can try harder, certainly, and perhaps acheive in that area. But no one should be made to feel as if they are good at something when they are not, or at least not as good as others.

[Moonliner]

Maybe the competition should be for # of pages read?

"Cat in the Hat" vs "Harry Potter". You can't use number of pages. Time is the only real option I see that enourages kids to read whatever they want.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Heehee, guys.

Our library has a standard summer reading program, and it does not count number of books read, it counts number of minutes read. The advantages to a system like this are pretty apparent.

As a kid I cheated my summer reading club by reading short books and listing books that I'd read last year. Guilt to my grave. :p

As for the lazy librarian, you're right in thinking you need to go above her head and get help from administrators. Librarians always have problems allowing something "disruptive" into their schedule, no matter how sensible. It's so nice a quiet when there's nobody in the library...;)

[MickeyD]

When I was in elementary school they counted minutes, not books. I kicked ass in the competition every year.....I also won my 5th grade spelling contest. It's sad how my life has been all down hill since 5th grade.

[Moonliner]

AMEN! This is a world where some people are better at some things than others. Expecting others to be restricted in order to help the "self esteem" of those less gifted in a certain area helps no one. Those with the ability are held back, and those who simply aren't as good are made to think they are.

Well, a lot of times, they aren't. They can try harder, certainly, and perhaps acheive in that area. But no one should be made to feel as if they are good at something when they are not, or at least not as good as others.

WOW! How many of my buttons can you push in one short post?? :eek:

Fist off: Competition. My goal, and the goal of at least some other parents is to give our kids a well rounded upbringing. Try this, try that, see what sticks, some baseball, some soccer, chess club, etc... But there is a problem with that. In our area, we have baseball teams of 9 year olds that have a professional coach, A 15 Year old down the street plays professional soccer, a 12 Year old who is a nationally ranked fencer, a world class diver age 10, a kid that won (or placed second I forget) in the national chess federation youth championships and a violin soloist that performs with the National Symphony Orchestra. No matter what sport or endeavor your kid picks around here you always run across that small segment of the population that does NOTHING but that. Year in Year out, everyday. Soccer, Tennis, Chess, baseball, take your pick. The "average" kid gets stomped no matter what they try. Want to try baseball? Better be able to hit a 50mph fastball pitched by a 10 year old. It can be very frustrating for the kids.

Next up: Confidence. With my kids, right from the start I've heard about how we need to "build confidence" in our kids. Teachers would regularly rig events so that everyone won in order to build confidence. What a bunch of bunk. Confidence comes naturally from proficiency. Without proficiency, confidence is a house of cards just waiting for a stiff breeze. I'll never forget the look on my 3 Years old face when she asked me (eyes beaming!) how proud I was of a clay lump she had painted and I said, "I don't really like it". I knew she had not tried at all and it was no where near what she was capable of. I think it was a hard but important lesson for her (I know it was tuff on me..). However now when I tell her "good job" she knows it means something.

[tracilicious]

It amazes me that there are so many ways in which we encourage mediocrity in our children. Don't believe me? Just watch Higglytown Heroes on Playhouse Disney. There is a hero featured in each episode. Past heroes include: Grandma for knitting a sweater on a cold day, the baker for baking bread, the grocer for finding noodles in the store, and the pizza guy for lord knows what. I'm all for teaching civic responsibility, but lets not disguise it as heroism. Save a life? Hero. Give a kidney? Hero. Put out a fire? Hero. Deliver a pizza? Minimum wage earner probably on your way to something better.

Incidentally, Michael will watch the show with Indi while I'm sleeping on weekends. Indi's favorite is the pizza guy. He goes around saying, "Me pizza guy!" I'm hoping his ambitions aim a little higher in the future, lol.

[Matterhorn Fan]

Perhaps the problem is the desire/need/obsession to quantify everything. Every student must read 12 books, so let's give them 12 teeny 4-year-old picture books and have them plow through them in September. Then, all the kids will have fulfilled their reading requirement, and we can forget about that and move on to something else. :rolleyes:

The point is that the kids read, right? What happened to assigning the occasional book report? The stories in the class's English book? The dioramas? What about country reports and King Tut projects that required the students to do a little "research" reading? (Too busy prepping for standardized tests?)


P.S. That King Tut book was coooooooooool.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The point is that the kids read, right? What happened to assigning the occasional book report? The stories in the class's English book? The dioramas? What about country reports and King Tut projects that required the students to do a little "research" reading? (Too busy prepping for standardized tests?)
Well gosh, how do you expect parents and politicians, who have no concept of how education works, to tell teachers how to teach if you don't have test results? Do you even think your posts through before posting?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

The point is that the kids read, right? What happened to assigning the occasional book report? The stories in the class's English book? The dioramas? What about country reports and King Tut projects that required the students to do a little "research" reading? (Too busy prepping for standardized tests?)The punchline is that students still have to do all the reports and things of old, as well as meet new requirements that are thrown at them by politicians.

[scaeagles]

Just a thought.....we hear all the time about how we are falling behind other industrialized nations in areas of math and science. How we do know this? Standardized testing.

SATs are standardized testing. ACTs are standardized testing. So are the Stanford acheivement tests.

Is it not important to have a measurement of how we are doing in education? Isn't a large part of education an accumulation of knowledge and an ability to process information presented? Standardized testing seems to me to be a good way of doing that.

Part of education has to be rote memorization. Knowing facts. Part has to be deductive reasoning. In "teaching the test", aren't we giving them the ability to do that? To meet certain minimal requirements? For math, the students are not given the problems and given the answers and forced to memorize them. They are taught the process of how to come to the answer, and that is how they come up with the solutions to problems on standardized tests.

I guess I don't see the problem with expectations of students knowing certain things at a certain age and having tests to see if the educators are doing their jobs.

[Ghoulish Delight]

All standardized tests teach you to do is take tests.

Okay, that's a bit unfair, and a small amount of standardized testing is a necessary component of tracking student progress. However, it's become the be all and end all. No Child Left Behind was written with the belief that the entire education process can be distilled and analyzed based on standardized test results. It's a load of crap. And it means 2 things. 1) Decissions are now based almost solely on the incomplete picture that standardized testing provides and 2) As these decissions fail to fix the problem (because, again, they're based on an incomplete assessment), the "solution" is to attempt to make the picture more complete with more standardized testing. Soon, the only things that will be taught is how to pass a test. And teaching someone how to pass a test is NOT the same as teaching the subject.

[scaeagles]

With certain things I can certainly agree with that. However, in terms of basic knowledge, such as vocabulary, math skills, etc, the best way to measure whether someone knows it is to test them on it. If someone can sit down and do a basic quadratic equation on a test it is because they have been taught in algebra how to do quadratic equations.

(edited to add: Clinton)

[Ghoulish Delight]

That's one theory. Another one has shown that standardized tests, especially in things like vocabulary and reading comprehension, are biased based on socio-economic lines. They make certain assumptions about "common knowledge" that is only common if you're above a certain economic class. Assumptions about what a home looks like, who cooks meals, who takes care of kids, etc. It's subtle, but it's been shown to make a difference.

Never mind that these, by necessity, are multiple choice tests. There are techniques for taking these which can guarantee better scores, without necessiraly better knowledge. I'm a master of multiple choice tests, no matter how clever the test maker gets. They are good to a point, but are severely lacking.

[scaeagles]

Well, if teaching the test means teaching strategies for answering multiple choice questions, then that should not be done.

So....what is a better way than standardized testing? I've had enough really, really bad teachers (and also really, really good teachers) to know that we need something besides inconsistent measurement standards from teacher to teacher to assess what is being successfully taught and learned.

[Prudence]

Bias on standardized tests can sometimes be blatant.

This is an honest-to-goodness true story:

In high school, during the first gulf war, we took some standardized test or another. Can't remember which one. I don't think it was the Iowa Test; I think it was some new one. It had lots of different sections, including current events.

One question, I kid you not, was something to the effect of:

"Why are American troops fighting in Kuwait?"

Answers included:

"To protect US oil interests"
as well as
"To spread democracy"

I knew it was one of those two answers, but the "right" answer depended on who wrote the exam!

As for the broader question: I don't think there's any magic bullet solution. To test a variety of different types of knowledge and thought processes, one should apply a variety of tests. Teachers should be given the freedom to assess student learning and to hold students back who have not mastered the skills of a given grade level. Sometimes I think the one-room schoolhouse folks had it right -- grades should be tied to skill mastery, not age.