Vatican to Ban Gay Priests

[Gemini Cricket]

Vatican to Bar Homosexual Priests - New York Times

Sep. 22, 2005 - Homosexuals, even those who are celibate, will be barred from becoming Roman Catholic priests under stricter rules soon to be released, the New York Times reported on Thursday.

The newspaper quoted a Church official "with authoritative knowledge of the new rules," as saying the question was not "if it will be published, but when," referring to the new ruling about homosexuality in Catholic seminaries.

The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the church's policy of not commenting on unpublished reports, the Times said.

He said that while Pope Benedict had yet to sign the document, it would probably be released in the next six weeks.

In addition to the new document, which will apply to the church worldwide, Vatican investigators have been instructed to visit each of the 229 seminaries in the United States.

The newspaper said that although work on the document began years ago under Pope John Paul, who died in April, its release will be a defining act in the young papacy of Benedict.

It noted that the Pope is a conservative who said last spring that there was a need to "purify" the church after deeply damaging sex scandals of the last several years.

The church official told the Times the ban would pertain only to candidates for the priesthood, not to those already ordained. He also said the document did not represent any theological shift for the church, whose catechism considers homosexuality "objectively disordered."

The church official who discussed the expected new rules said the document called for barring even celibate men who considered themselves homosexual because of what he contended were the specific temptations of seminaries.

"The difference is in the special atmosphere of the seminary," the Times quoted him as saying. "In the seminary, you are surrounded by males, not females."
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[Gemini Cricket]

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. It doesn't pertain to already ordained priests. Because if it did... ahem... there would be a huge chunk of priests resigning.

2. The church wants to 'purify' their priestly ranks. Was that something the current Pope learned as a kid? You know, purifying a large group by getting rid of an unpopular minority?

3. The CC should let priests marry already, for Christ's sake.

4. In a way, I'm happy with the decision. Often the most staunchly anti-gay priests are the gay ones. Without them, the church can lay off trying to deny my rights as an American.

5. Is the ban on lesbian nuns next?

6. In their narrow mind, how does this ban halt the priests who molested little girls?

Off topic: The last pope was more photogenic.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I13395-2005Apr24

[Nephythys]

zoinks!

[€uroMeinke]

Well considering these guys are supposed to be celibate and at least asexula in their behavior, I guess this document implies that to the church, homosexuality is not just a behavior to be controlled.

[Not Afraid]

Well considering these guys are supposed to be celibate and at least asexula in their behavior, I guess this document implies that to the church, homosexuality is not just a behavior to be controlled.


Nor is it a choice. Celibate Priests are still homosexual. I wonder if it is because God made them that way?

[innerSpaceman]

Good. Gays should not even be allowed to participate in such a homophobic organization.


And, yes, the new pope should never be seen or photographed. He conveys pure evil. He's obviously a madman with intent on taking over the world. Oh, and he's undead.

[MickeyD]

I've known about this for while and of course find it to be ridiculous. The LA archdiocese ordained 6 priests this year (I think, I wasn't at the ordination)....so next year, under these new guidelines I'm guessing we'll be down to about 1....yeah, that's what the church needs, *fewer* priests. :rolleyes: Ordain women/married men for christ's sake....

I am interested to see how the vatican visits affect the supposedly not very celibate atmosphere at the seminaries, if they affect it at all.


Grrr.....

On a side note....Bennie is much more photogenic when I'm behind the camera (if a little blurry.) :cool: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mickeyd_75/detail?.dir=335d&.dnm=3aef.jpg&.src=ph Also, these stupid ass guidelines have been in the works since before he was pope....although now that I think about it, he is probably still responsible for them....

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I think IS is right. Undead Pope! Undead!

I think the Catholic church should allow gays. And women. And donkeys. And baby seals. Etc. Because the priesthood is a dying profession.

I'll even write their new slogan: The More the Holier...and Merrier!

Actually, their problem would be solved if they simply allowed priests to marry, have partners, etc. In this Modern world, celibacy just isn't an option for most people. In the way back when, when people were generally ugly and smelly and pock marked and covered in arsenic powders, celibacy would have been a treat and a mercy.

Priests used to be allowed to marry. My understanding is that the Church decided to change this when it realized it would save money by disallowing marriage. A priest who doesn't have to support a wife and family - or leave behind some kind of widow's pension - is a bargain for the church. And nuns? Used to be, if you were a Christian woman who wanted to learn how to read, you better become a prostitute or a nun. So scholarly women became nuns. And the rest were usually woman who had no had dowries, and their families couldn't afford to keep them. Your sisters married before you. You have a hunched back, no dowry, and no man wants to take you off your father’s hands? To the nunnery with you, away! The nuns of real religious fervor and faith were probably few and far between. Most nuns, much like Maria, were simply waiting for their Captain von Trapps to come along.

Sex for priests! Sex for nuns! And what you’ll have are better, happier, more abundant servants of Christ. I guarantee it.

[mistyisjafo]

And when are they going to ban Pedophiles might I ask?

[€uroMeinke]

Nunsexmonkrock!

[Isaac]

Catholicism is bullsh!t.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/zapppop/OTGDY.jpg

[Nephythys]

I think some people are missing too many bits in the Bible about crucifying the flesh (that means "killing" the needs of the body) and dedicating themselves to God. The whole point is setting aside those bodily needs- so you don't announce that it's too hard for them- so let them screw whoever they want.

Guess there is no sweater this time Lizzie- LOL

[Prudence]

Priests used to be allowed to marry. My understanding is that the Church decided to change this when it realized it would save money by disallowing marriage. A priest who doesn't have to support a wife and family - or leave behind some kind of widow's pension - is a bargain for the church.

Indeed this is true. In fact, it was first sons that were disinherited/declared illegitimate. The church did not want sons of clergy to make inheritance claims on church lands. (Initially, daughters were not a problem.) The church struggled with this for some time with various pushes for celibacy alternating with married popes and such (Leo the something or other). The First Lateran Council in 1123 was pretty emphatic in requiring celibacy.

It's puzzling for me, a non-Catholic, that marriage should be lauded as a sacrament -- not just spiffy but a *holy sacrament* -- and also forbidden to the clergy. It's also puzzling to me as a historian. The various dualist heresies of the middle ages frequently practiced a strict celibacy amongst the lay people (they were also vegitarians -- wouldn't consume the products of coition) and boy did that upset the church! Marry and eat chickens or be burned at the stake!

[lizziebith]

I think some people are missing too many bits in the Bible about crucifying the flesh (that means "killing" the needs of the body) and dedicating themselves to God. The whole point is setting aside those bodily needs- so you don't announce that it's too hard for them- so let them screw whoever they want.

Guess there is no sweater this time Lizzie- LOL

No there is totally a sweater: the priesthood is supposed to be celibate (killing the needs of the body) and dedicate themselves to God. So the whole no-gays thing just MAKES NO SENSE! Because, if you've left behind the normal "sexual" part of your life to pursue spirituality, then it matters not what orientation you once had. There will be no screwing of any kind. And I don't think that that's any harder for one orientation over another!

:evil: -- needs his sweater?

Oops, just re-read: is it the announce part that is the difficulty?

[Nephythys]

naw LB- I think we're good LOL

Twice in one day- watch it, might make a habit of understanding each other-

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Nunsexmonkrock!
:snap: :snap: :snap:

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

It's also puzzling to me as a historian.

Man, do I love knowing a historian. Fascinating read. Thanks.

[Prudence]

Man, do I love knowing a historian. Fascinating read. Thanks.

I do teach a class called "So, you want to be a heretic?" Yup, I'm a nutter.

[PanTheMan]

Celibacy? no Altar boys? and NOW... NO GAYS??....

OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

Actually being raised Catholic, and being an Altar boy who never had any problems, I considered myself good friends with the Priests I knew.

Looking back 2 of them were total QUEENS! at 10 you dont see these things, i thought they were very nice guys. I will always be amazed at peoples OBSESSIONS with who is attracted to and sleeps with who. (Between consenting ADULTS of course)

I know back in the 80's and early 90's many priests died of "Cancer" This of course was played down by the church . Now we know this "Cancer" was AIDS.

I think if the Catholic Church were to kick out Gays, they would lose at least Half of thier priests.

[Morrigoon]

I don't see what effect banning gay priests is going to have on their pedophilia problems? Do they think they're the same thing?

[MickeyD]

It's puzzling for me, a non-Catholic, that marriage should be lauded as a sacrament -- not just spiffy but a *holy sacrament* -- and also forbidden to the clergy.

Ah, but, they consider the sacrament that is available only to priests (& deacons), Holy Orders, to be even more holy than marriage.

[Morrigoon]

Perhaps they should let priests and nuns marry eachother, so they'll be equally yoked?

[alphabassettgrrl]

I think I love you, Prudence! Thanks for the history lesson. :)

'Goon, I think many people *do* equate homosexuality with pedophilia.

GC, I agree that among the most violent gay-haters are the closeted gay folks... so in that respect maybe keeping gay men away from the priesthood might be good. Then again, that just promotes denial. You can't lie because that's a sin, but to deny it... that's not a sin. It's a flaw, but not a sin so much. It's not something commonly thought of as a choice.

I actually think that a lot of self-hating gay men and perverts of all stripes go for religious orders. Not to equate them, except that both are strong, unacceptable urges. What better than to serve god? God will either cure you or take it on himself or solve your problem somehow. It doesn't seem to be as operative for women. Thus, we get these high level preachers, who devote themselves with all their hearts to god, and in the middle of the night have a secret. We get money scandals, sex scandals, their personal worlds collapsing when the secret demands to see the light of day. Jung called it the Shadow, and the more you repress it the more it demands. Preachers seem to be trying to lock it in a box in their heads and it doesn't work. You'd think we would have figured this out by now, but it doesn't seem we have.

As far as the celibacy thing goes, I agree that abstaining from sex is a good way to focus your energy on god. I disagree that it should be a permanent condition. Does work out well that celibate priests don't have children to ask about inheritance from the church... Ok, now I'm being cynical.

[Morrigoon]

Okay, excellent points.

Perhaps the church should demand a "period" of celibacy when taking orders, perhaps 2-5 years, in order to give their priests time to focus on God, but after that, allowing them to marry.

[Gemini Cricket]

GC, I agree that among the most violent gay-haters are the closeted gay folks... so in that respect maybe keeping gay men away from the priesthood might be good...
I have spoken with a man of the cloth who believes that being a priest will cancel out him being homosexual. I think this is why a lot of girls become Catholic priests. ;)

I also know for a fact that a lot of gay priests clump together in the church and consider themselves a fraternity of sorts. Kind of like a pink Opus Dei. And apparently, it's a hard group to work with when you're a straight priest or deacon.

Interesting, no?

[Prudence]

Perhaps they should let priests and nuns marry eachother, so they'll be equally yoked?

And that would be the early so-called "Celtic Church" which did include married people in holy orders -- raising kids and everything. Alas, I am not as well versed in the early history of church on the islands. (Except for Bede, my buddy pal.)

[Prudence]

Ah, but, they consider the sacrament that is available only to priests (& deacons), Holy Orders, to be even more holy than marriage.

But the two sacraments were not always mutually exclusive. The adoption of a more ascetic lifestyle was gradual, in fits and starts, and not imposed from the beginning. In fact, there are those who argue that the church does not truly follow through with its alleged committment to the ascetic life -- witness the various reform-style heresies (Waldensians, Humiliati, etc...) -- and that it's historical accumulation of property is inconsistent with its mission.

But that would be an entirely different thread.

[Morrigoon]

And that would be the early so-called "Celtic Church" which did include married people in holy orders -- raising kids and everything. Alas, I am not as well versed in the early history of church on the islands. (Except for Bede, my buddy pal.)

Celtic church! Ooh, tell me more!

Here's a thought: could the suppression of information about Jesus' hypothetical marriage have come about at the same time that they decided priests should be celibate? Perhaps the suppression of that info was to give the impression that Jesus was himself celibate as a roving rabbi?

[Prudence]

Celtic church! Ooh, tell me more!



Alas, I don't know much about it. I can't even give you a good timeline. But I suspect that geographic isolation contributed both to the persistence of local traditions and leniency from Rome. (If you can't get over there to enforce the rules, they can't get to where you are and foment rebellion, either.)

Aren't Aglican priests allowed to marry?

[PanTheMan]

Perhaps they should let priests and nuns marry eachother, so they'll be equally yoked?

Then we would be back to Gay Marriage. Except this time it would be mostly Lesbians marrying Gay Men...lol

[PanTheMan]

Celtic church! Ooh, tell me more!

Here's a thought: could the suppression of information about Jesus' hypothetical marriage have come about at the same time that they decided priests should be celibate? Perhaps the suppression of that info was to give the impression that Jesus was himself celibate as a roving rabbi?


Two parts here 2 different subjects...
Celts were primarily Druid, they did however have a wide array of Gods and Godesses, mainly of earthen nature to oversee successful crops. They also believed once a King Died he became a god, and would continue to guide them. Gods however took the forms of many things or animals and would visit during dreams or in visions. Morigon, (Dont hate me if I'm wrong) Took the form of a Sacred Cow. A sign of life, fertility, and Happiness for women.

On the second point, Did you know the Catholic church had Married Popes? between 300- 600 A.D. The Papacy was often in Chaos, even being moved once to France from Italy. There was one period that there were 3 Popes at the same time! Celibacy was adopted in the 7th century in the Church for several reasons, most of them more political than religious.

Rabbi's during the time of Christ were supposed to be Celibate as entering the inner rooms of the Temple was strictly a Men Only thing, and Women were though to be "Unclean" as punishment for the sin of Eve. Rabbi's would go though elaborate bathing rituals before entering the temple as would Men able to enter the Temple. Jesus Cured a Blind man in one such bath.

[Morrigoon]

Yeah, Morrigan, a goddess who represents both battle and fertility (but what celtic goddess doesn't represent fertility?) Could take the form of a white cow or a raven/crow (I forget which).

But she made reference to a celtic form of christianity...?

[Prudence]

It's hard to come up with a good source for "Celtic Christianity." There's not a lot of written documentation from that timeperiod from the perspective of the Celts on anything, including religion. It's a difficult area in which to pursue scholarly research. The popularity of modern Wicca and attempts to reconstruct Druidic ritual confuse the field farther and it's even more difficult to separate solid research from conjecture -- or even conjecture based on historical evidence from wildly hypothetical conjecture.

Thus, I've not spent any time in that area, except to note that there is periodic evidence of practices that don't conform to Rome. Much of it's from early in church development, when even continental practices weren't cohesive. As orthodox practices trickled west, they were eventually adopted on the island, too, it just took a little longer, perhaps. I believe that co-ed monasteries were approximately the same time as the continental church was still working through priestly celibacy issue.

It's an oversimplification, but I believe that "celtic churches" retained and incorporated local beliefs in much the same way as isolated continental villages did. (See "Night Battles" by Carlo Ginzburg for an example from Italy.) The British Isles, especially the outer reaches (Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Isles of Man, and so forth) were sufficiently geographically isolated that lots of things were different there over time. Heresies come late there and are more socio-political than doctrinal, for example.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I have spoken with a man of the cloth who believes that being a priest will cancel out him being homosexual. I think this is why a lot of girls become Catholic priests. ;)

I also know for a fact that a lot of gay priests clump together in the church and consider themselves a fraternity of sorts. Kind of like a pink Opus Dei. And apparently, it's a hard group to work with when you're a straight priest or deacon.

Interesting, no?
Interesting, yes. And exactly what I expected.


Here's a thought: could the suppression of information about Jesus' hypothetical marriage have come about at the same time that they decided priests should be celibate? Perhaps the suppression of that info was to give the impression that Jesus was himself celibate as a roving rabbi?
That's exactly the process I think happened. It was 1- understood implicitly, that a man of the times would have been married, only mentioned if he was *not* married; 2- not considered important enough to write down; or 3- suppressed intentionally. Your thought that it was to coordinate with the new celibacy of priests is quite likely. It's how these things happen. How could they expect priests to be celibate if Christ himself was not?

Then we would be back to Gay Marriage. Except this time it would be mostly Lesbians marrying Gay Men...lol

So it's an older custom than I thought. :) Still happening, for various reasons. :)

[Gemini Cricket]

Eleven Priests in Chicago Area Removed

By MEGAN REICHGOTT, Associated Press Writer 9/26/2005

Eleven priests suspected of sexual misconduct with minors more than 20 years ago have been barred from clerical work, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago said Monday.

The men cannot present themselves as priests, engage in public ministries or act as an agent of the archdiocese, although they have not been removed from the priesthood, said Chancellor Jimmy Lago.

Lago would not disclose specific allegations or the priests' names or parishes.

The 11 were among a group of 14 priests whose alleged sexual misconduct was forwarded to Vatican officials two years ago by Cardinal Francis George, archdiocese officials said. One of the priests has died and two other cases will be decided by pending canonical trials.

The Vatican studied the cases last year and authorized George to conduct a review that included opinions from advocates for the priests and advisers, Lago said.

"Cardinal George has determined, based on the information presented, that sexual misconduct did occur," he said.

The sexual abuse, which allegedly took place 20 to 30 years ago in all of the cases, was reported both to the parishes and civil authorities, Lago said.

The statue of limitations has expired in all the cases, officials said.

Victim advocates said the church should have made the priests' names public.

"I think that this begrudging, long overdue action ... does not relieve Cardinal George of his responsibility," said Barbara Blaine, president of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. "There's 11 known child molesters out there that are not going to be found on any sex offender registries."

George's actions follow changes adopted three years ago by U.S. Roman Catholic bishops at the height of the clergy sex abuse scandal. In June, the bishops extended their policy of permanently barring sex offenders from church work.

The crisis erupted in January 2002 over revelations that many bishops had moved guilty priests among parishes without warning parents or police.

The archdiocese paid out $18.2 million in the last fiscal year to settle legal claims by people alleging sexual abuse by priests. Since 2002, 19 of its priests have been removed from ministry, Lago said.

[PanTheMan]

Yeah, Morrigan, a goddess who represents both battle and fertility (but what celtic goddess doesn't represent fertility?) Could take the form of a white cow or a raven/crow (I forget which).

But she made reference to a celtic form of christianity...?

Morrigan, Yeah, thats who i was thinking about---

I do know that when St. Patrick was converting Ireland, that several pagan rituals were "Merged" with Catholisism to make the religion more appeling to the Celts.

Also Christmas was placed on Dec 25th to 'compete' with the Winter Soltice, and some other pagan holiday around that time. Many things celebrated as "Christian" such as Christmas 'Trees' , Easter 'Eggs' Candles placed in windows, etc, are Celtic/Druid/German/Pagan in nature, infused into Christianity as well.
__________________________________________________ _


BACK to gay priests... Pope Benny said the Ban comes as a result of the Priest/Altar Boy Sex scandals now rocking the church worldwide. As it was men wth boys, in his eyes a "Homosexual' act...

HEY BENNY- TRY BANNING CHILD MOLESTORS INSTEAD OF 'GAYS'!!!
GAY DOES NOT EQUAL CHILD MOLESTOR! HUNDREDS OF STUDIES SHOW THIS! (Does this then mean its 'better' to molest Altar Girls?) Sometimes being a Catholic makes me want to PUKE.

[PanTheMan]

What did the lady on the beach say to the priest?

Excuse me father, can you get out of my son?