Tookie Williams denied clemency [Archive]

scaeagles

12-12-2005, 02:22 PM

I heard on the news that he was denied clemency by Arnold a short time ago.

I know what he was accused and convicted of. I am a supporter of the death penalty. I understand that there has been a certain amount of rehabilitation, depending on the source. I have heard he has been a problem inmate and the opposite. I have heard he preaches against gang violence, but has refused to assist the police in solving any unsolved gang related crimes.

My post is not to debate the death penalty, though that is certainly fair game, but I was listening to an interview with someone who is to witness the execution tonight.

I don't know if I could. I wonder if that makes me a hypocrite to be a supporter of the death penalty, but unwilling to witness it.

I suppose no one would really want to witness something like that, and even if I was related to a victim I wouldn't want to watch it, though I might feel the need to do so. Excusing relatives of the victim, I suppose you would have mental issues if you wanted to witness it (and perhaps even so if you are a relative, but differing mental issues for sure).

Could you (anyone who reads this) see yourself witnessing an execution under any circumstances?

CoasterMatt

12-12-2005, 02:37 PM

I've seen deaths in a couple of accidental circumstances, but I think it would be very difficult to watch something so calculated.

Unless they started doing sentences like tossing people into walls with a trebuchet; I'd probably watch that on Pay Per View :evil:

Ponine

12-12-2005, 02:44 PM

I cannot fathom why I would want to witness an execution. Even if I was a family member of the victim.
It seems... morbid? Rude? Not something I am supposed to witness?

I understand the death penalty, but I fear that watching the death, I would feel remorse that I had something to do with the death.
Maybe I did by helping to get the person convicted, but I still dont think I could do that.

I can barely watch people be ill.

Gemini Cricket

12-12-2005, 03:05 PM

I think about this whenever I hear about families of murder victims wanting to watch the convicted die. I think if it was someone I loved dearly I'd feel like I'd want to watch. But, this is a big 'but', I don't think it would ease my pain at all. In fact, I think it might make it worse. So ultimately, I wouldn't ever do it.

wendybeth

12-12-2005, 03:17 PM

I don't really know if I'd watch- I suppose it would just depend on the circumstances. I'm conflicted on the whole Tookie thing; he apparently has turned things around, but the simple fact remains that he was convicted of some pretty heinous crimes and was instrumental in developing a gang that has caused immeasurable pain and suffering over the years. At the very least he's had plenty of time to get right with his maker and/or himself, but his victims never had that chance. He has lived a long time, while they have been dead a long time. If I were a member of one of his victim's families, I suppose I would want to be there. I doubt any closure occurs, but it's better than nothing.

tracilicious

12-12-2005, 04:37 PM

I hope all our LA friends stay safe in case of riots. I don't know how I feel about the death penalty really, but I do think it is important to note that he did do a lot of anti-gang work for the past 13 years. Hopefully his followers will take note of that when considering the repercussive actions they have threatened.

€uroMeinke

12-12-2005, 04:47 PM

Hmmm a coworker of mine just told me I should get home early in case of rioting. Then I reminded her that my train goes through the hoods of Watts and Compton. Might make for an interesting ride home

I was in New Orleans during the Rodney King riots, flew back when most of the burning was under control.

AS to the OP, while I am against the death penelty, I believe I could probably witness a modern day leathal injection execution. It would be odd, it wouldn't be something I would "want" to do, and I might just throw up afterwards, but I could probably do it clocaked in the notion that it was some sort of civic duty like sitting in a Jury as a disinterested third party.

Not Afraid

12-12-2005, 04:58 PM

GREAT! What time is the execution scheduled for?

€uroMeinke

12-12-2005, 05:03 PM

12:01 AM Tuesday (I guess that means tonight) - I should be home by then

Alex

12-12-2005, 05:15 PM

I support the death penalty (in principle, not in practice), so if I thought an execution were justified I don't think I'd have a problem witnessing it.

I've seen various killings (though not in person) and the simple seeing of it doesn't bother me (though the act may).

If I thought an execution were justified I also think I could be the executioner without too much difficulty.

Not Afraid

12-12-2005, 05:22 PM

I've seen quite a few people and animals die and it always looks so peaceful. But, I've never seen anyone executed. I really don't have a need to witness one either.

I go back and forth on the death penalty. I don't see the purpose as a deterrant nor as a punishment. I'd rather die than spend the rest of my life in jail.

I do have to admit that I am fascinated with the guillotine as a mechanism of death. Go figure.

wendybeth

12-12-2005, 05:51 PM

Betty

12-12-2005, 05:56 PM

I heard on KFI that years after he claimed he was reformed, he wrote a book that was dedicated to a list of "bad people"... people that have been convicted of murders, including those of police, a judge, etc. They reasoned, why would a person who was reformed, dedicate a book to 10 (it was around 10) people that all committed heinous acts.

If he is innocent, he's had how long to go through appeals? Long enough to have them researched and heard I would think. It's a sad thing if an innocent man is killed.

On the other hand, he's been convicted of murdering several people. Those are the children and parents that will never have the chance to appeal anything now will they. They never had the option of a last meal - a chance to tell their loved ones how much they loved them - a chance to say goodbye. Tookie has never admitted to the crimes - never apologized.

Perhaps if he had shown some sort of remorse for what he'd done... not just in being a gang member, but in taking the lives of innocent people, I would somehow feel he deserved death less.

innerSpaceman

12-12-2005, 05:57 PM

I'm surprised that Arnold denied clemency. He seems to be running so far away from the Bush Republican brush he feels unfairly painted with (appointment of lesbo liberal democrate Kennedy as his chief of staff being the prime example) that I thought he'd let Williams off as part of his recent backpedling political strategy.

I am against the death penalty under any circumstances, would not want to witness an execution, and would never be able to convict someone of guilt if death were to be the penalty. It's eye-for-an-eye biblical barbarism as far as I'm concerned, and proven to be no deterent whatsover. Heh, even if it were, people's lives are not meant to be taken so as to set an example of warning. Bah on that. Add in the racism, the wrongully convicted up the wazoo, and the fact that - well - it's wrong (is there some reason the U.S. is alone with, who? Korea, Iran and their ilk as still having the d.p. in this day and age?), and you have 50 more reasons than I need as a civilized man to be against the practice.

* * * * *

I find the timing of this prominent gangster execution very interesting on a personal level, as today was the day that the two gangsters who paralyzed my nephew in a school drive-by were each sentenced to 120 years -to- life in prison. It was a highly charged, emotional court hearing, much moreso than I exepected. There was gang violence over the sentence just outside the courtroom that had to be broken up by the baliffs, and my entire family was escorted from the courthouse by a cadre of sheriffs.

Maybe it was a riot rehearsal for later tonight.

wendybeth

12-12-2005, 06:04 PM

120 to life? Has the average lifespan suddenly increased, or is this a type of sentencing that ensures a true life sentence? I'm not familiar with California sentencing guidelines, but it seems here in Wa there are lots of loopholes and ways to get around actually serving the sentence handed down in it's entirety.

I'm glad to hear that they were sentenced, and that they took precautions for your famiily's safety.

Eliza Hodgkins 1812

12-12-2005, 06:56 PM

I've a book you would probably love, then. It's called 'Legacy of Death', and it's about the Sanson family of executioners in France. Great book.

Now *that's* a book recommendation. Cool!

Snowflake

12-12-2005, 06:58 PM

Well, I am not one for the DP. Frankly, the way I see it, the DP does not deter anyone, except those who are prosecuted, convicted and then executed for their crime(s).

I'm thankful that I've not been asked to serve on a capital murder jury, and I would not want to have the opportunity to be a witness at an execution. Of course, witnessing now seems to be a rather sterile issue with lethal injection. Nonetheless, I'd probably puke my guts out before, during and after (not a pleasant scenario for any other possible witnesses to be sure).

I hope that Euromeinke has no issues on the train home tonight and he'll reassure us that he does get home without issue!

Donna

Not Afraid

12-12-2005, 07:16 PM

He's home without incident - and he brought burgers even!

€uroMeinke

12-12-2005, 07:22 PM

So far this evening all is quiet between Downtown LA and Long Beach. I had a rather uneventful journey home tonight protected by the compnay of Umberto Ecco and the swank sounds of Ursula 1000. We'll see what tomorrow's like.

Eliza Hodgkins 1812

12-12-2005, 07:25 PM

I am against the death penalty under any circumstances, would not want to witness an execution, and would never be able to convict someone of guilt if death were to be the penalty. It's eye-for-an-eye biblical barbarism as far as I'm concerned, and proven to be no deterent whatsover. Heh, even if it were, people's lives are not meant to be taken so as to set an example of warning. Bah on that. Add in the racism, the wrongully convicted up the wazoo, and the fact that - well - it's wrong (is there some reason the U.S. is alone with, who? Korea, Iran and their ilk as still having the d.p. in this day and age?), and you have 50 more reasons than I need as a civilized man to be against the practice..

The next time I see you, I may try to hump you.

Ditto to all that you said. It could be argued that the whole purpose of the legal system is to put an end to eye-for-an-eye vengeance.

Without it:

I kill your dog. You kill my dog. I then kill your dog’s puppies. Then you kill my chickens. Then I kill your chickens and your daughter. Then you kill my son, my wife…. On and on and on.

When a person is killed there’s nothing anyone can do to ever make that right. The idea that a person can find peace in the death of another human being, even one who has caused great harm, is just not a healthy one to cultivate. “Murder is wrong, and so, as punishment…more murder.” Bah.

A human should not have the right to kill another human being.

And neither should a government. You can’t have it both ways. War is a far more complicated issue, though my problems with war stem from that same hypocrisy: Murder is wrong, except…… *How* can there be acceptable exceptions? Sure, sometimes you cannot avoid war. Sometimes going to war is the necessary thing to do, but it still feels more wrong than right.

I understand the impulse to murder. It’s animal. It’s natural. So when an individual commits murder, it’s a horrible thing, but it doesn’t scare me nearly as much as a governing body deliberating and deciding that murder is an acceptable punishment. And it scares me even more when the government makes the decision to go to war. I guess an individual crime doesn’t terrify me as much as a government committing a crime and calling it something else: justice.

Then again, my favorite comic book quote is "Take away the blindfold and the scales and justice is a woman holding a sword."

All that aside, the threat of the death penalty does nothing to curb crime.

I propose an alternative.

We need a prison planet. Or, to start, a prison space station. Heh.

Not Afraid

12-12-2005, 07:30 PM

We need a prison planet. Or, to start, a prison space station. Heh.

They did that once. It was called America. ;)

Name

12-12-2005, 07:45 PM

They did that once. It was called America. ;)
I think you mean Australia.....

wendybeth

12-12-2005, 07:51 PM

Both, actually.

Kevy Baby

12-12-2005, 07:57 PM

(is there some reason the U.S. is alone with, who? Korea, Iran and their ilk as still having the d.p. in this day and age?)Countries with the death penalty:

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

I find the timing of this prominent gangster execution very interesting on a personal level, as today was the day that the two gangsters who paralyzed my nephew in a school drive-by were each sentenced to 120 years -to- life in prison. It was a highly charged, emotional court hearing, much moreso than I exepected. There was gang violence over the sentence just outside the courtroom that had to be broken up by the baliffs, and my entire family was escorted from the courthouse by a cadre of sheriffs.I heard about that on the way home and thought about you. I am sorry that this continues to be such a trauma for you and your family.

€uroMeinke

12-12-2005, 08:00 PM

Countries with the death penalty:

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

And what great company to be in

Name

12-12-2005, 08:06 PM

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Sweet, all those third world countries.....

Eliza Hodgkins 1812

12-12-2005, 08:07 PM

Both, actually.

Yes. I realize this. But we've run out of continents, people. We need to move this action into space. And then we can have Prision Planet Mars, and in a few hundred years, the prisoners will be just like the good upstanding citizens of Australia and the USA.

Heeee!

Alex

12-12-2005, 08:11 PM

Actually, it wasn't so much America as Georgia.

Like I said, I support the death penalty in theory but not in practice. It has nothing to do with revenge or closure or comfort. I just think there are acts that are so heinous that removal from the human race is the appropriate response.

But I have no problem with the many people who think otherwise.

In reality I don't think the death penalty is a sentence that can be consistently and accurately applied and therefore it is like using toothpaste as lube, it works in theory but not so much in practice.

Nothing I've seen indicates that Williams deserves clemency for the facts of this individual. That said, I'd applaud long and loud if the governor pulled an Illionois and commuted ALL the death penalty sentences.

Mousey Girl

12-13-2005, 01:46 AM

It is done.

Boss Radio

12-13-2005, 03:50 AM

Whatever.

Now all the big-hearted celebrities can go back to their mansions after grandstanding to the cameras, leaving the clean-up to the T-shirt gypsies, while we brace for the inevitable martyr marketing machine that will shower us with Tookie R.I.P. clothing and talking Tookie Furbys (Gangs are bad! Put down that gun and pick up a book!)

Perhaps Scott Peterson can take heed and release a coloring book called “Killing Pregnant Ladies is Bad”, and then maybe, just maybe, he can get clemency because he’s turned over a new leaf.

And good old Charlie Manson can pen a Pop-Up Book warning the dangers of listening to the White Album with a group of drug-addled followers who obey your every command: (Killing is wrong, even if you think the Beatles told you to.)

The victims all might have gone on to write award-winning children’s books, but they didn’t get that extra 25 years to follow that dream. They got dead instead.

The Death Penalty is far from perfect. The system is inherently flawed, as are the people who make it run. But, and it is always a but, there needs to be the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime.

Personally, I’d much rather see taxpayer money go towards community outreach to help out the next generation of underprivileged kids, than to watch it go toward three squares a day, computer access, exercise equipment and medical resources on lifers. Let them generate their own power on treadmills, let them grow and prepare their own food. If the food runs out, they can eat each other.

But that's just my opinion.

Ghoulish Delight

12-13-2005, 08:34 AM

Personally, I’d much rather see taxpayer money go towards community outreach to help out the next generation of underprivileged kids, than to watch it go toward three squares a day, computer access, exercise equipment and medical resources on lifers. Let them generate their own power on treadmills, let them grow and prepare their own food. If the food runs out, they can eat each other.

But that's just my opinion.The cost of getting someone executed far outpaces the cost of life in prison due to the lengthy and expensive appeals process. And because of the finality of the deed, that lengthy and expensive appeals process is a necessity. If you're going to put someone to death, you damn well better make sure you're right about their guilt. As such, it can neither be an effective deterrent (by the time it happens, it's so far removed from the crime), it does nothing to ease the pain of the vicitims' families (study after study has shown this), it's not a cost effective solution (see above), and even with the most stringent appeals process carries the risk of killing an innocent person.

It is the law as it stands, and I have not seen anything that suggest to me that Tookie Williams deserves exemption from that law, so I'm not surprised or upset about Arnold's decission not to grant clemency. But the death penalty needs to go.

scaeagles

12-13-2005, 08:51 AM

Either that or it needs to be....executed, for lack of a better term....before 26 years passes.

I have never really bought into the biblical argument against the death penalty regarding "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" stuff. Principles of forgiveness certainly need to be applied, and contextually it is speaking on a personal level rather than a governmental level. I could present some out of context argument from scripture like "The wages of sin is death", but I certainly don't think thievery is worthy of the death penalty.

I suppose what makes me saddest about the death penalty is not the execution of someone like a Tookie Williams, but the fact that the family must wait 26 years for the sentence to finalized. What a horrid thing to have to endure. Life without parole would certainly bring it to (and good lord I hate this term) closure much, much faster. While certainly possible to move on with life, whenever the appeals are heard and the story hits the news again it's right back in the face of the families of the victims. It is almost more punishing to them than the perpetrator.

Ghoulish Delight

12-13-2005, 09:16 AM

Either that or it needs to be....executed, for lack of a better term....before 26 years passes. Anything that speeds it up or makes it cheaper makes it more inaccurate. 26 years is too long? What's not? 20 years? 16? 10? Even shortened to that length, it will cost millions of dollars up front and continue to be a non-deterent.

What I think is a disservice to the victims' families is convincing them of the myth that the execution will make them feel better. Because it simply doesn't. That, combined with exactly what scaeagles says (regarding being made to re-visit the ugliness over and over due to the necessity of appeals), and I find little to no justification for the death penalty.

Alex

12-13-2005, 11:53 AM

I think it is wrong to say that the death penalty "simply doesn't" make anybody feel better. It most certainly does make some people feel better.

When I was a young boy (I can't remember what summer it was) Wesley Allen Dodd kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and mutilated three younger boys before stringing them up in a local nature preserve. He was captured attempting to abduct a fourth boy. There was now doubt of his guilt (he had documentation in his home) and he was sentenced to death.

He did not appeal his sentence and actually sued to prevent others from appealing for him. This resulted in a relatively quick execution (something like 4 or 5 years from sentencing).

I didn't know any of the boys myself, or their families, but I did know many people who knew one of the boys. There is no denying that when Dodd was executed it made them feel better. They were pleased that his punishment for removing that boy from this life was to be removed himself. They were pleased that there was now zero chance that Dodd would ever be able to do to another person what he had done to those three boys.

I personally don't feel that way about it, but there is no denying that a lot of people do.

[As a gruesome aside. Washington State has two forms of execution (or it did back then): hanging or lethal injection, and the prisoner was allowed to choose which form would be used. Another prisoner on death row selected hanging (as did Dodd) and then intentionally gained a massive amount of weight, only to sue that hanging would be inhumane since his weight would likely cause decapitation. The statute did not allow prison officials to switch him to lethal injection over his objection and the debate over this (not his guilt) successfully delayed his execution for a long time. I don't know how it all resolved.]

wendybeth

12-13-2005, 12:07 PM

For some reason, Washington state seems to be a magnet for serial killers. I remember the Dodd case very well, Alex. I've also had two people I know murdered by serial killers- one was my best friend in jr. high, and the other was my sis-in-law'a sister, by Robert Yates. They found her body buried in his flower bed. I don't see the death penalty as anything other than a method for permanent removal of someone who has so broken the social contract that they are no longer trusted to live in society, any society. The latest and saddest case ocurred less than 30 miles from here, near Couer D'Alene, Idaho. Shasta Groening and her brother Dylan were abducted by a very sick man who had a long rap sheet. He murdered their family, took them up in the woods, and then murdered Dylan, who was only ten. He did so in front of the sister, who is nine. He did a lot of other really horrific things that I won't print; suffice it to say that the death penalty is too good for him.

I am still conflicted on the death penalty, but my personal experiences coupled with the knowledge that such animals as the ones listed above even exist tends to color my perspective. It's not about revenge, it's about making sure they can never, ever do this again. Ever.

innerSpaceman

12-13-2005, 12:23 PM

Life in prison without the possibility of parole is a good enough Ever for me. Talk about the dealth penalty being too good for them ... well, that's why I think life in prison is so perfect.

And yes, Wendy, that's what the 120 years-to-life sentence handed down to Young and Taylor was ... a guarantee that no parole could ever be issued. Because they got six sentences (two for each victim) ... if they were to be paroled on one, they would then begin serving the next sentence. In essence, it's a life sentence with no parole possible.

Short of severing each of their spinal cords, I find life in prison to be the best justice possible for these scum; far better than the easy escape of death.

And I happen to think that our lifeless Moon would make a far better prison planet than Mars ... and could be set up as such far sooner.

Ghoulish Delight

12-13-2005, 12:27 PM

I think it is wrong to say that the death penalty "simply doesn't" make anybody feel better. It most certainly does make some people feel better.Fair enough. My statement was a general one based on repeated research that the majority of victims' families have said that they did not feel the closure they expected (and were often lead to expect by prosecuters) after the execution. That case is clearly a rare exception.

It does bring up a slightly murkier area for me. Stripped of the cost of uncertainty (both monetary and moral costs), in a case where the evidence is clear and the defendant admits to everything, would I support the deat penalty? Though I honestly haven't satisfied myself with an answer to that question, I feel I still lean against it. I am not comfortable with empowering the state to take a life in that manner. No matter how heinous the crime and how certain the conviction, human life is not in the purview of government.

Gemini Cricket

12-13-2005, 12:33 PM

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

BarTopDancer

12-13-2005, 12:47 PM

How come the state can decide to put criminals to death instead of letting them suffer in jail but the person in constant aganozing pain from terminal cancer cannot legally make the choice for themselves and must suffer?

wendybeth

12-13-2005, 12:51 PM

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Damn you, GC!;)

This is where I am conflicted- there have simply been too many cases of innocent people wrongfully convicted. I really am on the fence about this, and it's not a comfortable place for me. I can usually weigh the pros and cons and determine my stand on an issue- this one is simply too complicated.

Great quote, oh Crickety one. :snap:

Alex

12-13-2005, 12:57 PM

That quote is meaninless as it could be extended to prohibit just about any action by society against the individual.

I have no problem saying that some people should be put to death, I just don't have sufficient faith in a bureaucracy to be sufficiently accurate or consistent in making that determination.

When I am master of the universe (a process that can't start until I get around to bleaching my hair), there will be a death penalty.

Snowflake

12-13-2005, 12:57 PM

Ghoulish Delight

12-13-2005, 12:58 PM

Great quote, oh Crickety one. :snap:Double snaps to that. Sums my stance up perfectly. No matter how air-tight a case seems, no matter how many appeals you allow, no matter how much you spend, no matter how careful you are, the chance of an innocent person slipping through the cracks remains. And no matter how small that chance is, it's too large for my taste.

Alex

12-13-2005, 12:59 PM

Because the right to die has been coopted by the psycho-medical industrial complex and redefined not as a personal choice but as a medical treatment (which it is not). The desire to die, even when a rational choise has been defined as ipso facto evidence of dementia.

Capt Jack

12-13-2005, 02:49 PM

Bill Munny: Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess he had it comin'.
Bill Munny: We all got it comin', kid.

- Unforgiven, 1992

innerSpaceman

12-13-2005, 03:50 PM

That quote is meaninless as it could be extended to prohibit just about any action by society against the individual.
Meaningless???!??

Gandalf the Grey - meaningless?!?!? Those Sir, are words of ignorance.

In all seriousness though, I don't see how that can be expanded to include any act. Oh, you can expand that philosophy indefinately if you want, but it's clearly not the intention of Gandalf or Tolkien or Mr. Cricket that you do so. No one, not the Istari nor anyone else, is claiming that denying the state the purview over human life is akin to denying the state the purview over, say, taxes.

Alex

12-13-2005, 04:47 PM

It extends itself through the logic underpinning the quote. Also it is fallacious in establishing a false connection between giving and taking life.

innerSpaceman

12-13-2005, 05:06 PM

There is no false connection alluded to in the quote. The very point of the quote is that it's a true connection.

I suppose those who would still instill the death penalty throughout the universe should they be elected God in the next deification election might think the connection false, but that does not change the validity of a quote authored by a non-candidate.

Disneyphile

12-13-2005, 05:11 PM

I'd never want to see an execution. And, I'm totally against the death penalty, as too many innocent people DO get executed, just on grounds of "circumstantial evidence" or even fear. Take the "West Menphis Three (http://wm3.org)" for example. A community went crazy, and decided to blame the "weird kids" in town. Two documentaries have been made regarding this case, and to see the bile that is spouted by the actual townsfolk is absolutely disgusting. And their lives are being wasted away in prison, one on death row for a crime they didn't commit, but people just think they did. It's a frightening example of the faulty justice in our legal system, and lives are on the line for it. :(

Alex

12-13-2005, 06:05 PM

Well, we'll have to just disagree that the ability to give life and the right to take it are connected, though it is a bizarre concept to me.

The creation of life is a chemical process. The right to take life is a societal decision. To me it is like saying you can only choose to use nuclear energy if, first, you have the ability to put the atoms back together.

And I never said anything about being god. God doesn't exist and I haven't the time nor energy for omniscience. I'll settle for a simple benevolent dictatorship.

wendybeth

12-13-2005, 06:22 PM

Alex as a benevolent dictator.......

Would you still need to bleach your hair?

Alex

12-13-2005, 06:23 PM

Yes, if I wanted to be master of the universe (which is not the same thing as god). I'd also need a sword and something approximating a muscle, but really it all starts with the hair.

wendybeth

12-13-2005, 06:27 PM

Yes, if I wanted to be master of the universe (which is not the same thing as god). I'd also need a sword and something approximating a muscle, but really it all starts with the hair.

I know! That's what I'm always telling people! Well, I'll bleach it for ya, n/c.

Ghoulish Delight

12-13-2005, 06:48 PM

Well, we'll have to just disagree that the ability to give life and the right to take it are connected, though it is a bizarre concept to me.The message I get from the quote is, you can't undo death, nor can you know for certain whether taking a life is the right decission, so using death as punishment should not be taken lightly.

innerSpaceman

12-13-2005, 07:00 PM

Athiests are one thing. Fine if they think there is no god to create life and take life away. But if they think they have the right to kill a man, then they are animals and not men.

Ha, an atheist might claim that a man is a member of the species homo sapien. And I would retort that it is not the fact of being a different species that removes one from the animal kingdom, already consisting of thousands or millions of different species. It is the moral rising above the animal which separates one from the animal. Those who believe they have a right to kill their own kind, as all animals do, are animals and not men.

Not Afraid

12-13-2005, 07:08 PM

Yes, if I wanted to be master of the universe (which is not the same thing as god). I'd also need a sword and something approximating a muscle, but really it all starts with the hair.

http://personal.linkline.com/cemeinke/IMG/HeMan.jpg

Alex

12-13-2005, 07:14 PM

Then there has yet to be a non-animal society on this earth.

I don't think I have the the right to take a life, I think that society has the right to decide to take a life. There are many situations in which society has decided it is ok to take a life and those circumstances have varied widely across times and cultures and the death penalty is hardly the most permissive that has ever existed, and it is a valid topic of debate.

So, if simply saying that "killing can be done" makes us no better than animals, then I think we're still looking forward to the day when humanity blossoms forth on this little rock.

As an aside, no I don't think we're substantively different from other animals. No I don't think there is a soul, life force, or energy that binds us all together. No I don't think life (not even a human life) has inherent value. No I don't think the human condition is perfectable through human endeavors (that is, I'm not a secular humanist). No, I don't think there is a morality towards which mankind should strive. Yes, I still try to be what I think is a good person.

If that means I'm just mucking about with the hogs, then so be it.