West Virginia mining accident and reporting

[scaeagles]

A tragic situation, most certainly.

I bring it up, though, because of the outrage created by the story out that 12 had survived when in fact, 12 had perished.

I am not a huge fan of the media in general, but I cannot really bring myself to place blame on them, or anyone.

As I understand it, someone in the rescue control center said the 12 had been found. Someone nearby interpretted that to mean that they had been found alive. While that is certainly a jump, I do not think it is an unreasonable thing to think - everyone was hoping that they would be found alive, and I don't think it unreasonable. Well, that person then called someone on the outside, and it eventually got to the members of the community, gathered together in a church waiting for news. They emerged, rejoicing, telling the media members that they had been found and were alilve.

The media ran with the story. I don't think that is unreasonable.

I most certainly would not want to be one of the family members, hearing that my loved one was alive, only to find out three hours later that they were dead.

But why is there a need to assign blame? I can understand the disappointment, and I can even understand outrage, but I have now heard that there will be lawsuits. Against whom? And for what? There was a mistake in a misinterpretation of something overheard.

The real issue seems to be lost - that 12 miners are dead in a mine that had a few recent citations for safety violations.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I truly hope that this next statement from me isn't a trend for the coming year...

I completely agree with what you posted.

(Damn, that was uncomfortable)

[Gemini Cricket]

The sad thing is that all over the city all the newspaper stands have papers that read '12 Miners Survive' and '12 Miners Alive It's a Miracle' and all that. This was even at 12 noon today. No revising there...

The whole thing is sad. I'm not sure why the mining management waited 2 hours to tell the families that the news was wrong...
:(

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I heard it was 3 hours. I am so horrified by this story. There's no other way to make such a tragedy even more tragic. :(

That said, I agree with 'eagles, this was just a bad game of telephone. But perhaps they will now figure out a way to prevent this from ever happening again. I wouldn't be surprised if we came up with a disaster reporting protocol that became standardized. That wouldn't be a bad thing.

[innerSpaceman]

From ever happening again? Feh, I just saw "Munich" last night ... which opened with the tragic tale where reporters blundered all over the world that the hostages were alive, their families rejoiced, and two hours later it was - "ooops, sorry, we didn't mean alive ... we meant dead. Our bad."


That was 1972.

[scaeagles]

I hope nothing happens, frankly.

Every mistake does not require management or a review or a new policy to avoid it again. There is no policy that will ever prevent mistakes from happening.

[innerSpaceman]

I love it when I make a mistake and people tell me not to do that again.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I hope nothing happens, frankly.

Every mistake does not require management or a review or a new policy to avoid it again. There is no policy that will ever prevent mistakes from happening.There are plenty of fantastic ideas that grew from "mistakes". Ideas like the Miranda rights reading upon arrest....adding a clause to your will involving "persistant vegetative state"....and sealing the large air chambers that keep luxury liners afloat (oh, and have enough lifeboats, too).

This is not to say that all "corrections" are correct - such as the "security" measures taken by our gov't after 9/11. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to prevent bad things from happening.

[Not Afraid]

What a terrible tragidy in the first place. I find it so odd that in this day and age of amazing technology we still send men 300 feet underground for the purpose of mining for fuel. It seems such an old, worn out concept.

The fact that misinformtation was distributed, people got their hopes up only to have them dashed just makes this tragidy even more terrible.

There's nothing wrong with hope - even if hopes are dashed - but it sounds like it was a hopeless situation to begin with and communication failed. Such is the err of humans.

[Snowflake]

Terribly sad. I have listened to reports all day on NPR. It was a human error compounded as CP said, by a really awful game of telephone. I can sympathize and identify with the abject horror and grieving of those who lost a loved one. My logical mind cannot get around a concept of why someone would consider suing. A litigious society to the extreme compounding a sad, sad tragedy.

[innerSpaceman]

Suing the mining company, yes. The news organizations, no.


But keep on being sue-happy, America. It's what puts bread (and an annual passport) on my table!

[Snowflake]

Suing the mining company, yes. The news organizations, no.


But keep on being sue-happy, America. It's what puts bread (and an annual passport) on my table!

Sue them for what? They don't even know what caused the explosion yet! Sue them because someone heard that 12 had been found and translated that into they had been found alive? Turn the tragedy into a travesty. But people will eat it up on Court TV and (ugh) Nancy Grace.

Aw, you're an ambulance chaser! Are APs that expensive? ;)

Donna

[innerSpaceman]

Ahem, I said sue the mining company. No need to wait for the cause of the explosion to file suit. Negligence is almost a certainty and, if it turns out not to be the case (which I doubt), then there's no harm done (except for attorneys being, muwha-ha-ha, a tad bit richer!)

[Snowflake]

Ahem, I said sue the mining company. No need to wait for the cause of the explosion to file suit. Negligence is almost a certainty and, if it turns out not to be the case (which I doubt), then there's no harm done (except for attorneys being, muwha-ha-ha, a tad bit richer!)

Point taken. :)

Donna

[€uroMeinke]

Hmmm ,to sue anyone that gave you false hope - that would be a racket.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Isn't there an automatic payout by a mining company when something like this happens? Aren't they insured for family compensation in case of horrific tragedy?

[DisneyFan25863]

Isn't there an automatic payout by a mining company when something like this happens? Aren't they insured for family compensation in case of horrific tragedy?


There must be. They would be crazy not to get insurance for this type of thing. Heck, my dad is covered for this type of thing, and all he does is sell cars!


This truly is a horrific tradgey. I agree with NA, it's amazing that we still have people working in such harsh conditions, and yet live in the age of robotics.

[innerSpaceman]

We might not have people still working in such harsh conditions if the Bush Administration had not eviserated enforcement of mining health and safety regulations.

Does that come as a surprise to anyone?

Sago Mine has one of the worst safety records in the business, with hundreds of violations during the last few years. Tough enforcement of the mining regulations for heath and safety have effectively ceased since Bush took office (though admittedly, the fines were always a mere nuisance under all previous administrations ... which is not to say that previous ones did not provide much tougher enforcement under a much more proactive UMSHA.

[scaeagles]

Of course! Of course blame lies with Bush. I have heard that Louis Farrakhan has accused the Bush administration of actually planting explosives at the site, but when he learned that it wasn't African Americans working in the mines and their skin was just darkened by coal soot, he decided to rethink his position. :rolleyes:

[innerSpaceman]

You are such a reactionary apologist, it freaking amazes me. Yes, Bush is the president of the United States. And yes, under HIS administration, cronyism and corporate-capitulation have run rampant. And specifically, UMSHA's budget and personnel have been eviserated, and it has radically changed its course on enforcement.

Why don't you do some simple research on methods and efficacy of UMSHA enforcement before and after Bush came into office ... and then try and claim that the president is not responsible for lax enforcement of the federal minining health and safety regulations.

It's all over the news, so this information should not be hard to find.

[scaeagles]

And you are one who would choose to place blame for any and everything on a President you don't like. You will instantaneously jump on the bandwagon of anything that would place blame for anything on the Bush administration. Calling me a reactionary apologist is simply ridiculous when you consider that yes, in fact, I am critical of his policies when I think it is warranted. Do I have to list them again?

The way I see it, mining isn't even one of the most hazardous jobs out there. Let's look at the most recent Department of Labor stats, shall we?

Fatalities per 100,000 workers -

Timber cutters - 117.8
Fishers - 71.1
Pilots/navigators - 69.8
Structural metal workers - 58.2
Driver/Sales workers - 37.9
Roofers - 37
Electrical power installers - 32.5
Farm Occupations - 28
Construction Laborers - 27.7
Truck Drivers - 25.0

Obviously, Bush has not done enough to enforce traffic safety. Two of the most hazardous jobs simply involve getting into a vehicle and driving.

He has obviously let OSHA slip in handling construction safety. Construction jobs, structural metal workers, roofers, and I would assume some of the electrical deaths are in construction, and the record there is disgusting.

Timber workers - well, we all know Bush wants to cut down all forests, so those deaths just fit right in with his agenda.

I am also "freaking amazed" with you. Well, no, I take that back. I expect it from you, so I am not amazed.

[BarTopDancer]

Boys! Why don't you two just jump each other and get it over with?

Thank you. That is all.

[scaeagles]

Actually, I think GD is next on his list. Please refer to the "fellas, don't kiss this guy" thread. I'm kind of sweet on MBC and Scrooge, anyway.

[Gemini Cricket]

Boys! Why don't you two just jump each other and get it over with?
I know, right? It was all very 'Romancing the Stone' there for a second. iSm goes, 'You're a mondo dismo.' And scaeagles is all, 'What... what am I? I'm a what?'
:D

[innerSpaceman]

Changing the subject is not a good argument. We're not talking about other industries - or traffic fatalities for that matter.

And what good is providing current injury statistics without also providing comparitive injury statistics of a period prior to the Bush Administration?

That, too - however - would be comparing apples to oranges. I am not alleging that Bush's policies have significantly changed the trend in mining injury rates since UMSHA came into being (in the late 60's, I think). I simply don't know if this recent accident (which I believe are the only mining deaths during the last 5 years) have affected the statistics one way or the other.

What I have heard evidence of is lax enforcement of health and safety regulations, and the abysmal safety record of Sago Mine. You can discuss other things if you care to, but that is not a refutation of my allegations concerning UMSHA policies under Bush.


I will freely admit that the dollar amount of fines that UMSHA issued under Clinton, and Daddy Bush, and Reagan, and Ford and Carter were absurdly low. But the fines are hardly the only enforcement tool that UMSHA has at its disposal.


We do not even know yet whether the Sago Mine explosion was due to negligence. But at a facility with such a horrible record of safety violations (or do you care to argue those facts?), one has to make certain assumptions ... and one might also reasonably question why such a facility was allowed to continue to operate.


Like it or not, health and safety in the mining industry is under the purview of the federal government. The buck stops with Bush, especially when policies have changed since he came into office.

[scaeagles]

I did some looking around, and all I found was one cut in the 2003 budget - from 124 million to 117 million in the MSHA budget. In the same report, however, it said that violation citations went from 126000-132000. Those numbers seem pretty high....132000 mining violations in a year? Yikes.

I have no argument with you that the mine in question had a poor safety record. So, I would blame the mine operators.

I brought up other industry to point out that, in fact, mining has not historically (since the 1968-69 beginning of MSHA) been a hazardous occupation. If something has not been shown to be hazardous, to me it makes a bit of sense to me to cut the oversight budget. However I can understand disagreement with that.

[Not Afraid]

I just LOVE watching you men argue. It just gets me all hot and bothered!

[innerSpaceman]

Hoo hah, just wait till I start arguing with Ghoulish Delight then!

[Not Afraid]

No, see, GD doesn't do anything for me. He's a great guy and all, but I don't want to do him.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Actually, I think GD is next on his list. Please refer to the "fellas, don't kiss this guy" thread. I'm kind of sweet on MBC and Scrooge, anyway.


Well, if you want GD, you have my permission and blessing. I can't vouch for the appliance quality though. You'll probably have to negotiate.

[SacTown Chronic]

I blame Bush for everything. And until he gets a blowjob from a portly practitioner of the oral arts not named Jeff Gannon James Guckert, I will continue to blame him for everything.


He is, after all, head of the federal government and despite his numerous protestations to the contrary, the buck does stop with him.

[innerSpaceman]

No, see, GD doesn't do anything for me. He's a great guy and all, but I don't want to do him.
So, I infer from this that Leo does something quite special for you, and that you sooo wanna do him. I'm sure the thought of being a homewrecker is the only thing holding you back.

I, on the other hand, have no such compunctions. Yeah, I confess - arguing with Leo gives me a boner. I wouldn't hesitate to act on my hot-headed hot desires if he ever deigns to let us know when he's going to be at Disneyland again - - but I would sorta expect the boxer reaction rather than the one I anticipate getting from GD this weekend.

[Fab]

Maybe people should stop pointing fingers and instead do something to help the families of the victims with all that pent-up energy. If they're the dependents of coal miners, they can't have it too great in the first place, and now that support is gone.

[Alex]

I simply don't know if this recent accident (which I believe are the only mining deaths during the last 5 years) have affected the statistics one way or the other.

According to the Emergency Disaster Database, on 23 September 2001 there was an explosion at the Blue Creek No. 5 coal mine in Alabama which killed 13 people (obvious lesson from combining that event and this: never allow 13 people into a mine at the same time).

That is the only other mining incident listed in the database since 1990. Combined, these two incidents are as deadly as an explosion at a chicken processing plant in Hamlet, North Carolina, in September 1991 which killed 25 people (obvious lesson from that event is that terrorists are chicken).



Me, until I'm given specific reason to think otherwise I generally start on the assumption that if you wait long enough, **** will happen. After the fact there will always be somebody to blame for that **** that happened, but that doesn't always mean that the **** was avoidable.

I've paid zero attention to the specifics of this situation (because, frankly, I don't really care about a mining accident in West Virginia). I'm sure someone was to blame, I'm sure they will be sued (as well as many people with money that aren't particularly to blame) and that the memo from Bush to Cheney that says "kill the mother****ing miners" will mysteriously disappear.

[scaeagles]

No, see, GD doesn't do anything for me. He's a great guy and all, but I don't want to do him.

:blush:

[scaeagles]

but I would sorta expect the boxer reaction rather than the one I anticipate getting from GD this weekend.

While I don't think I'd punch you, my wife would kick your butt. She'd probably kick NA's butt, too, but it'd be funnier to watch her kick yours.

[katiesue]

Maybe people should stop pointing fingers and instead do something to help the families of the victims with all that pent-up energy. If they're the dependents of coal miners, they can't have it too great in the first place, and now that support is gone.

The mining company has already set up a fund for the family's and made an initial $2 million donation.

A fund to provide financial support to the miners' families has been established by ICG with an initial contribution of $2 million, company Chairman Wilbur L. Ross said Wednesday.

"No amount of money can take the place of a loved one," he said in a statement, "but the families do have financial needs as well."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/mine.explosion.ap/index.html

I watched this all happen live on three channels CNN, Fox and MSNBC and I have to say the Media is at least partially responsible for propagating the rumors. They were reporting as facts things that weren't verified. They started out reporting that it was "rumored" 12 were alive and after about 20 minutes the rumor part was out and they were reporting it as fact. And quoting another unconfirmed report from another news source isn't verification of anything.

It's all horrible but the media presence all standing around live for 4 hours with nothing really to say didn't help at all. When the one ambulance came out and then nothing for hours you knew something was horribly wrong. And some of the "facts" they were reporting like the survivors would be taken to the church simply made no sense, in these kinds of situations they always take people to the hospital to check them out first. It was just one gigantic mess.