What is with parents these days?

[Snowflake]

Colorado Parent object to student's exposure to opera video of Faust
the story here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060202/ap_en_tv/faust_video)

God forbid they get exposed to classical music and maybe enjoy it? These will be the same parents who will think it's okay for their kids to go watch tripe on television, movies or video games.

Donna who is an opera lover and appreciates that most operatic plots are patterned after real life, violent, raunchy and crazy. At least the music is great!

[Gemini Cricket]

Good gravy. Are these parents saying that they themselves have no impact on their kids lives whatsoever? Can't they just explain to the kid, after they watch it, how it doesn't fit in to their own personal beliefs? Sheesh. Take some control of your kids and start parenting. Everything else it to blame for your kid possibly being maladjusted in the future. Bleh.

'Faust' is wonderful.

[mousepod]

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

This is the opera I want to see (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/18/nopra18.xml)

[Gemini Cricket]

Sorry, I thought I was done ranting...

What do these parents want? Their kids to grow up in a world that only has sanitized parent approved content in it? That ain't gonna happen. Now this teacher is probably going to leave and be replaced by someone who will cater to their whims. That just stinks. I hope these kids grow up, move out and go to college, because they ain't learning about life from their parents. Their kids are going to be narrowminded, scared, unprepared automatons who won't know how to handle seeing someone in Goth makeup the first time they step into a Hot Topic.

Then again, this is sometimes how a rebel is raised. ;)

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Colorado, huh? I wonder of the real fear these parents are suppressing is the fear that their little boys will turn into big fags because they listened to an opera...?

Amendment 2 anyone.... :rolleyes:

[scaeagles]

I have listened to opera. I am not gay.

Parents are stupid. A while back we hads a parent here in Phoenix mad that their kid had to read Tom Sawyer. The "N" word is in it, you know. Made her child feel degraded. Never mind that one of, if not the major theme of the book is the stupidity of racism.

I wonder if that kid in Colorado can listen to Charlie Daniels? "Well, the devil went down to Georgia, he was lookin' for a soul to steal....."

[Ghoulish Delight]

I knew a guy in college who refused to play Hotel California on his guitar because it was about cults and referred to the devil.

[Gemini Cricket]

My parents wanted me to take down a poster I had of Prince in my room because he looked like a devil. :D
This was like 1984 or so... right around 'Purple Rain'...

I also wasn't allowed to listen to Ozzy. "He's Satanic, you know."
Ha ha.
:D

[Ghoulish Delight]

I've got another friend who grew up going to Disneyland at least once a year with his family. Then he went in jr. high or high school with some friends, sans family. His friends said, "Let's go on the Haunted Mansion." To which he said, "The what?"

His parents had not even let him know it existed.

[SacTown Chronic]

Mom lectured nonstop about the evils of masterbation and now I suffer from tennis elbow. Tabooism never works.

[Not Afraid]

My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.

NOOOOOOOOOO.

I have a really hard time stomaching this type of parenting. Is having enlightened historical knowledge such a bad thing?

[Moonliner]

I've got another friend who grew up going to Disneyland at least once a year with his family. Then he went in jr. high or high school with some friends, sans family. His friends said, "Let's go on the Haunted Mansion." To which he said, "The what?"

His parents had not even let him know it existed.

I'm glad this friend of yours was finally able to see the light. I wonder if this friend ended up with a healthy fixation on the mansion. Perhaps meeting some kindred haunted mansion spirit. Maybe this friend is a Disney fanatic to this day, using a mansion themed identity on the Internet or running in mouse adventures....

[Alex]

I'm torn.

The parents are stupid. But opera (at least every time I've seen it) is a horrible thing to subject children too.

So I say we execute both the teacher and the parents and make the children wards of the state.

[Moonliner]

As for the original topic of this thread...

Yes there are some fairly screwed up parents out there but it's also unfair to judge someones entire life on a single article like this. Who knows what details were left out.

Also, I'm sure all of you are or will be perfect parents making all the politically correct choices for your kids, teaching them tolerance and love and peace. Just be ready with the first aid kits for when they ride on the bus with the kid who's parents think grand theft auto is a great kids toy.


Ps.. After reading the article, I don't think Opera was the issue. It was that the Opera was about the Devil. So please go back and edit all your musical outrage and update it to religious outrage. :)

[Snowflake]

I'm torn.

The parents are stupid. But opera (at least every time I've seen it) is a horrible thing to subject children too.

So I say we execute both the teacher and the parents and make the children wards of the state.

Awwww, opera is not bad, sung properly it can be absolutely transporting.
Opera has everything, love, hate, vengeance, murder, incest, fantasy, it's like a great reality show with a fabulous music track. Then again, it's all about personal taste, sung well, I love opera, sung poorly, it's a miserable night in the theatre. Sung poorly, I weep for Verdi, but it never kills his music.

As for you Mousepod, it's about time someone had the Rhinemaidens in the nude, proper costuming for a mermaid no matter what Disney may say! ;-)

Now, I agree, some of these parents should have their children taken away from them, if for no other reason that with someone else they might have a more healthy exposure to art, culture, the world. Of course, the kids will be exposed to a healthy exposure to art, culture, music and the world via their gay friends.

Donna

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I have listened to opera. I am not gay.I have watched professional sports (basketball, football, and baseball), live, in person. I am not straight.

I never said their fear was rational.

But regardless, I'm not 100% familiar with the plot of Faust, but doesn't Faust pay dearly for his "bargain" at the end of the show. Does that not make Faust a morality tale...?

[Gemini Cricket]

Any kind of program that makes a kid sit for more than 15 minuites is torture to them. They need to learn to be calm.
:D

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm glad this friend of yours was finally able to see the light. I wonder if this friend ended up with a healthy fixation on the mansion. Perhaps meeting some kindred haunted mansion spirit. Maybe this friend is a Disney fanatic to this day, using a mansion themed identity on the Internet or running in mouse adventures....It ain't me. I so wish it was me...because that day that he discovered the Mansion, he also happened to be on acid. Oh what I wouldn't give to go back and experience the Mansion on mind altering drugs having never known of its existence!

Nope, my parents may be as square as square can be, but they most definitely did not shelter me.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I have watched professional sports (basketball, football, and baseball), live, in person. I am not straight.

I never said their fear was rational.

But regardless, I'm not 100% familiar with the plot of Faust, but doesn't Faust pay dearly for his "bargain" at the end of the show. Does that not make Faust a morality tale...? I'm going to forbid my kids from reading the bible because it mentions satan.

[Snowflake]

As for the origional topic of this thread...

Yes there are some fairly screwed up parents out there but it's also unfair to judge someones entire life on a single article like this. Who knows what details were left out.

Also, I'm sure all of you are or will be perfect parents making all the politically correct choices for your kids, teaching them tolerance and love and peace. Just be ready with the first aid kits for when they ride on the bus with the kid who's parents think grand theft auto is a great kids toy.

I agree, but my point is this, Faust is an opera over 100 years old, based on a classic tale of good v evil and the struggle for a man's soul by Goethe. It in no way glorifies the devil and worship of the devil. Exposing a child to something like opera or sculpture of Michaelangelo, painting of Monet or Matisse is a positive and creative thing. The kids are free to hate all of it and the parents are free to explain to them rationally if they do not understand the concept of the Faustian tale.

Hell, Barbie culture and worship of Paris Hilton and the pseudo-celebrity lifestyle she represents is far more destructive than poor old Faust if you ask me. It's also far more aceptable to American culture, so it would seem.

Of course, I'm not a parent.

Donna

[Gemini Cricket]

People freaked out about 'Last Temptation of Christ' too, but the event in question took place during a dream. The overall message was that Jesus had thoughts/dreams like a regular man... But they protested anyway...
Bleh.

[Alex]

it's like a great reality show

You lost me right there. I've seen "good" opera and it definitely isn't for me. I've read the stories being told in the operas and they're mostly worthy, but the actual performance as opera is mindbreakingly awful.

In no way do I diminish the skill and accomplishment of the performers. But as with the person who can toss a cow pie farther than anybody else in the world, just the fact that it takes a lot of skill doesn't make me want to watch.

For the most part I enjoy musical theater, but not opera.

Of course the kids should be exposed to opera, they can't know how bad it is until they experience it themselves. Also, while I disagree that representations of the devil are inappropriate for children I don't think it odd at all that a parent would try to shield their child from topics they feel are inappropriate. They have their beliefs, they live by them. I can't be too bothered by that (any more than I am bothered by the general notion of exposing children to religion; that should wait for adulthood).

[Snowflake]

You lost me right there. I've seen "good" opera and it definitely isn't for me. I've read the stories being told in the operas and they're mostly worthy, but the actual performance as opera is mindbreakingly awful.

For the most part I enjoy musical theater, but not opera.



And this is what makes the world go round. :cool: If everyone loved opera, I would not be able to get tickets!

And I loathe some musical theater, so there you go. :rolleyes:

Donna

[Moonliner]

As for the original topic of this thread...

Ps.. After reading the article, I don't think Opera was the issue. It was that the Opera was about the Devil. So please go back and edit all your musical outrage and update it to religious outrage. :)

I just felt this needed to be restated. The "parents" in the article were NOT down on opera. They are religious wackjobs.

[scaeagles]

I'm not a fan of opera, mind you, but going to school on a music scholarship entailed having to endure them.

[Moonliner]

I'm not a fan of opera, mind you, but going to school on a music scholarship entailed having to endure them.

Opera ain't so bad. I rather liked Tommy in quadraphonic.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm not a huge opera fan either, and certain musicals bug me, but I am gay. Really I am.

There are some operas that truly are stinko. I'm not a fan of 'Tristan and Isolde'. Bleh.

[Snowflake]

I'm not a huge opera fan either, and certain musicals bug me, but I am gay. Really I am.

There are some operas that truly are stinko. I'm not a fan of 'Tristan and Isolde'. Bleh.

Agreed, a snore-fest!

[€uroMeinke]

Sounds like the parents should be made to repeat the 4th grade, they obviously missed the point of the lesson.

[Prudence]

I named my laptop Mephistopheles. But I had no idea that blue pubic wigs even existed. Now I want one.

[tracilicious]

I'm going to take the other side of the coin here. I think you guys are making way too much of this. The teacher got in trouble for exposing kids below the fourth grade to Faust. I have a niece who is in fourth grade. She's ten. She's not going to get the murder and suicide and devil take your soul messages in Faust. More likely they'll terrify her.

I don't think it is about parents wanting to shelter their kids from everything. I know if my child were in second, third, or fourth grade and somebody showed him Faust, I'd have been pissed. Not because it mentions the devil, but because those are very mature themes. Exposure to culture and history is all well and good, but it should be appropriate to age level. With a child that young, it should be my choice as to when they are exposed to those themes.

Regardless, if the teacher wanted to expose the kids to Opera, there are certainly more appropriate operas she could have picked. She sounds like a dingbat to me.

[katiesue]

I have a fourth grader. I looked up the actual video set on the net and it's an old series that was made for kids to introduce them to opera.

Description: Mignon/La Perichole world-famous soprano Joan Sutherland and her magical puppet friends present opera programs designed for the whole family. Presented with fun and humor, designed to make adults and children comfortable with this area of western culture. Spotlights two operas.

I'd be fine with my daughter viewing this. She can see much worse daily on TV (heck her Dad thinks letting her watch CSI is appropriate).

From the original article it sounds as if the parents were more opposed to the "devil" aspect than the Opera part. I'm not an opera fan but don't a lot of them involve murder/tradedy? What about Shakespeare? Lots of death, suicide in say Romeo and Juliet. The music teacher was trying to expose them to the art of Opera, I don't think the actual content of the opera was the point of the lesson.

[€uroMeinke]

I don't know, at age 10 I was certainly familiar with the Faust tale, suicide, etc. but clearly, I'm not the norm.

I think the opera version of Faust (Gounad) is very simplified telling of the tale (like most opera). Now if they were reading Goethe's Faust, with implied infanticide and more mature themes, then perhaps I might go with the age-appropriate critique.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Bambi's still got a G rating, right?

[Alex]

Yes, but I don't know if it would get one if it were submitted for the first time these days.

[Prudence]

I suspect that many fourth graders could benefit from a morality lesson a la Faust, considering that so many are taught that they are entitled to whatever they want without consequences.

What I think is sad is the implication from the article that the teacher is being run out of town. I have no idea what other incidents may have transpired, or if the teacher is over-reacting, but if she is being run out of town as an alleged "satanist," that's the sadest part.

[Not Afraid]

I feel sorry for the kids who grow up in that town.

No, I feel sorry for those of us who will have to deal with them as adults. ;)

[Kevy Baby]

If you really want to get kids to watch opera, tell them they aren't allowed to see it.

[scaeagles]

Isn't Harry Potter kind of intense? I would suspect most 10 year olds are seeing those movies.

[tracilicious]

That's a good point about Harry Potter, scaeagles.

I reread the article and it seems it was mostly puppets, they weren't actually watching the Opera. How is that supposed to expose them to Opera? The whole situation seems dumb to me.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

That's a good point about Harry Potter, scaeagles.

I reread the article and it seems it was mostly puppets, they weren't actually watching the Opera. How is that supposed to expose them to Opera? The whole situation seems dumb to me.

I think-- I'm not sure, but I think-- that the puppets were performing the opera.

[wendybeth]

I was fortunate to have a few teachers like the one in the article, and I'm non the worse for it. (I think). Then again, I was a bit different even as a kid. I remember falling in love with Poe in second grade, and being a little confused by his "Silence- A Sonnet". I showed it to a penguin (I went to parochial school) and her reaction was a bit extreme. She scolded me for reading such dark material, and if memory serves she tried to interest me in one of those stupid Mittens books, or some such thing. It had the opposite effect, of course, and I think that may have been the beginning of my Gothyishness. When I did go to public school, it was during the Seventies, when there was a lot of educational freedom and experimentation going on, so I was really lucky to have some really great, innovative instructors. I pity kids nowadays.

[Snowflake]

That's a good point about Harry Potter, scaeagles.

I reread the article and it seems it was mostly puppets, they weren't actually watching the Opera. How is that supposed to expose them to Opera? The whole situation seems dumb to me.
This was a series of videos which were produced to introduce children to opera and featured Dame Joan Sutherland (she of HUGE voice and huge stature physically). If I'm not mistaken, the series was called Who's Afraid of Opera? Puppets and Dame Joan singing an aria or two from one of the operas and Dame Joan in full operatic drag.
Donna

[Gemini Cricket]

Isn't Harry Potter kind of intense? I would suspect most 10 year olds are seeing those movies.
Not so much if you live in Tehachapi, CA (Ralphie's mom teaches there). Members of their school board want to ban Harry Potter in all forms. You know...witchcraft.
:rolleyes:

[Kevy Baby]

When do we get to ban stupidity?

[lindyhop]

I went to school in Downey. The Downey city library was famous back then because it had banned Tarzan books. It seems Tarzan and Jane weren't married...

In junior high my friends were reading James Bond books so I read some, too. My mom called the school to complain, apparently thinking I'd been encouraged to read them by teachers. As a result I had my book confiscated by a teacher in front of the rest of the class. Lesson learned: Never let my mother know what I was doing.

When my son was in middle school (I think) he told me he was supposed to watch "Schindler's List" for school. I hadn't seen it yet myself so I rented it and we watched it together over the weekend. Before he went back to school he remembered the note I had to sign to assure the school I was okay with him watching the movie. Was I suppose to keep him from watching it? That just didn't compute. Of course I was also the one who bought him Mortal Kombat and the NIN CD with the parental advisory sticker one Christmas.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Let me state right now (In my currently blissful ignorant childless state) that in the future, I will never, ever complain about what my child is exposed to by teachers - Except their genitals, of course ;)

For me, it's not about exposure. Show them whatever you like. My only problem would be if the teacher were attempting to tell the child that thier opinions were correct. This includes "This is the true God", "This is the true political belief", etc. Oh, and of course - "Your parents are wrong."

Anything else, I can deal with just fine, because my child needs to learn how to seperate the wheat from the chaff. What a wonderful learning opportunity it is when a child comes home with something to talk about!

And that's my rant, thank you very much ;)

[Alex]

What about a science teacher who teaches homeopathy? (I had one of those)

[scaeagles]

I would also argue that there is only so much time during the day.

I would prefer my children have math, science, language, phys ed, history, etc, than spend time on what I might consider to be frivilous. I'm not saying that opera is frivilous, but it may not be what I think my child should be spending time on while in the fourth grade. Let the parents be the ones that instill culture, as culture is vastly different to vastly different people.

Diversity is fine. Whatever. But I want to make sure my kid can read and add before I'm too worried about if he appreciates opera.

What if this mom objected because the opera contained Satan and had a moral regarding dealings with him to be bad because that was making a religious statement?

I think there's too much fluff in education. My 6th grade daughter is doing in math what I did in the 4th grade in math. Why? This is just where cirriculum writers have 6th graders at present, and I'm not blaming teachers. I just think need more of the readin', writin', and 'rithmetic.

[mousepod]

Hey scaeagles - according to the article, the class that the Faust appreciation video took place in was music class. You're not saying that music class is bad, right? Because if K-12 was just about the 3 R's, then we'd be in sorry shape.

Now, sports... that's something we can live without (I don't do smilies... but if I did there'd be a wink inserted here).

[scaeagles]

Actually, I didn't read the article. In music class, no problem.

But my fluff argument still stands.

[Kevy Baby]

(I don't do smilies... but if I did there'd be a wink inserted here).Take out your avatar and signature and you would be Alex's best friend!

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Actually, I didn't read the article. In music class, no problem.

But my fluff argument still stands.

Just to clarify, do you think courses such as music and art are "fluff" classes? And if so, why are they but not phys ed.?

[scaeagles]

No, no, no.....not at all. As a reminder, I was a music theory/composition major on a scholarship. There is plenty of evidence that those who excel in music often excel in mathematics, and I think the training is well worth while.

I don't think phys ed is fluff, either.

I could go into what I think is fluff, but it would take a while.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

The problem is, where does the music class end and the fluff begin? Who's to say how much we should teach of any subject? The teachers and administrators battle with this every day.

[scaeagles]

Very true, CP. My wife is a teacher and we understand this very well.

The MAIN priority of school is the three Rs. So much other stuff pushes its way in that often times those are not treated as the priority. After I throw in history, the priorities are somewhat less clear. Music and phys ed are not as important as those others.

I keep starting writing various rants, but I find them to be endless. They have numerous tangents that I cannot seem to organize in any rational way. So....until I can figure out how to put all of my educational rants into something short of a voluminous tome, I will hold off. I would post one at a time, but I don't necessarily think one is more important than another.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Maybe this is too far of topic but I'm in a ranting mood.

I do agree that the "three R's", along with History, are probably where the priorities should lie. However, I can't help but reflect upon my own educational experience where there was no problem teaching these subjects effectively AND also requiring things like music, phys ed., art, and home economics. The "three R's" didn't suffer because the other subjects were taught. Rather, we were all given a well-rounded education.

It saddens and worries me that more and more students don't seem to be learning much of anything in school. I don't think that cutting out the "less important" subjects is the answer, but rather a quick fix that doesn't address the real problems. And I truly feel that one of the main problems is a lack of parental interest in their childrens schooling.

I hate to see that we don't seem to be able to offer a well-rounded education anymore and have to decide which classes are more important than others. In the grand scheme of things, they all seem pretty important to me. We can cut thing like music classes, which many schools have done, but the fact that the kids still can't read, write, or do simple math, seems to suggest that the problem isn't the diversity of subjects but the failure to teach any of them successfully.

[Alex]

I can't answer for him, of course, but while I would consider P.E. more of a fluff class than music, but I would consider music class second tier in importance. I certainly never learned anything from elementary school music classes beyond the words to "The Battle of 1812" and "This Land Is Your Land"* (and I never took any in high school so I don't know if their value increases).

When I was in elementary school, music class was one hour a week, as was P.E., so I don't really feel that was a waste of time. Don't know if that is different in other places or has changed over time.

But I do know that my younger sister managed to get to sixth grade without being able to multiply beyond the most basic single digit numbers or read a non-digital clock (and this was after two years of being in a "gifted" program) so I don't think schools failing kids is anything new.




*I'm sure we sang other songs and did other musically things but for some reason those are the only things that have stuck in my mind from elementary school music classes.

[Not Afraid]

I can't imagine how boring and uninspiring school would've been for me without things beyond the 3R's. I never would've made it. I'd probably be just another high school drop out.

[€uroMeinke]

I think it important for schools to give kids a chance to explore and discover their talents and interests, physical, musical, theatrical, intellectual, etc. Yeah basic math and langauge skills are probably primary, but the other stuff often becomes a place you can actually apply those "basics" and better retain them.

[wendybeth]

Since when has the main mission of education been only the three R's? If you look back at typical education criteria from different eras, you'd find that there was so much more emphasis on the arts, history, philosophy, etc. We are incredibly difficient in these areas today; just about any exposure to what one might call a classical education is only done in some prep/private schools and in the home. I've looked at curriculum from the late 1800's to now, and we seem so far behind in so many areas. The average kid would probably flunk out of his/her grade level if we used the same tests and criteria that educators did back then, especially in the history/language/arts departments.

[scaeagles]

I hate to see that we don't seem to be able to offer a well-rounded education anymore and have to decide which classes are more important than others. In the grand scheme of things, they all seem pretty important to me. We can cut thing like music classes, which many schools have done, but the fact that the kids still can't read, write, or do simple math, seems to suggest that the problem isn't the diversity of subjects but the failure to teach any of them successfully.

That's one of my major rants as well.

I think there are many, many reasons for this.

First, too many schools are worried about self esteem. Face it - some kids are smarter and learn faster then others. Too many teachers teach to the lowest common denominator. We don't want to make anyone feel badly, do we? I am not suggesting that those who may not learn as fast or who are not as smart not be educated, but what is wrong with separating children who learn faster?

Also, I am frustrated that there seems to be no emphasis on rote anymore. Why not have elementary students memorize multiplication tables? Or historical dates and facts? Or where something is on the globe? Or how to spell a word?

What's wrong with a couple hours of homework each night? An hour for thris through 6th, a couple hours for jr high and HS? All the kids will do is go home and play video games and watch Sponge Bob anyway.

So....yeah, MBC, even when music programs are cut it doesn't seem to help the other subjects improve.

Frustrating.

[Prudence]

I went to a number of different elementary schools within the same district. The one I went to 2nd-4th grade was oboxious because the teacher was obnoxious. One of my classmates was in the Seattle Boy's Choir so most of class was spent hearing how wonderful it was; clearly none of the rest of us had any talent, as we were not in the Seattle Boy's Choir. Because the rest of us were judged incapable early on, we didn't learn anything.

At the school I went to in 5th-6th grade, our music classes put on a musical every year. That was a great experience. We learned a wide variety of things with actual practical application. We learned about auditioning. We each got parts and had to learn lines. We learned that one doesn't always get the part one wants. (Okay, I always did. But I'm sure the others learned a valuable lesson.) We all had to sing. We had to put together costumes. We learned how to put together an event. We had practice starting a project and working together as a team with varied skill levels across varied skills. We had experience performing in front of audiences.

These various "sub-experiences" were valuable lessons with practical application outside music class. Obviously we didn't all rush to Tony Award-winning careers on Broadway, but it set the groundwork for skills that allow us today to work on teams in the workplace and present proposals or workshops to an audience of busness personnel. Sure, we gave speeches and so forth in our regular classes, but the focus there was generally on content. Music class was the venue for teaching personal and teamwork skills outside the formal classroom -- all wrapped up in something "fun." And if we learned a little about music along the way - so much the better.

What didn't occur to me until years later was that our musicals were just for our class - so our music teacher must have been working on a dozen musicals or so. Sure, we probably all did the same musical, but still - that's a lot of work for one teacher.

[lindyhop]

I have no direct experience with K-12 these days but here's my two cents...

With all the emphasis on testing, aren't most teachers forced to spend a good portion of their time preparing their students to take standardized tests? Being able to pass a test has very little bearing on what a student really knows.

Art and music classes are cut from schools when budgets are slim. Field trips are a thing of the past, too. These are all things that help our kids become well-rounded human beings not just good test takers and reciters of facts. The creativity of art and music helps all of us learn to think and understand. We all need to be able to make the leap from the facts in front of us to something we haven't thought of yet.

Kids are naturally creative and I think schools beat that right out of them. And kids who aren't exposed to art and music in school may grow up thinking that these are activities that only talented geniuses can do. Not everyone is going to create a great work of art but everyone can do something at their own level. If they want to, of course. But I think some people don't want to because they've never had the experience in the first place.

I'm rambling but just one more thing. Someone mentioned earlier that their music experience in school was just learning to sing some songs. That's what I remember, too. But those songs were usually American folk songs (I can't think of any song titles right now) so we were learning a little history with the songs (whether we knew it or not). And we were also indulging in a little math (rhythm) and poetry (the rhyme and meter of the song) and the social exercise (singing in a group) wasn't a waste either.

Deborah
(an accountant with a comparative literature degree who loves to dance and wishes she still had time to write poetry)

(and she knows her multiplication tables, too)

[Alex]

I guess where I differ is that I don't think it is the job of schools to teach children to be "well rounded human beings."

I think the big problem with our society is that education has come to be defined solely as something that happens between the ages of 5 and 18, between the months of September and June, and between the hours of 7:30 and 3:00 inside a building placed within a few miles of your home. And therefore we feel that everything we think a person should know has to be crammed into that window.

A certain subset then extends this to the age of 22 or so. But then the vast huge majority of people stop their "education."

Also, in our two income, no parent at home society, school has increasingly become a babysitter and a surrogate for parenting. And where, at one point in time schooling was more about teaching things parents weren't necessarily qualified to teach it has increasingly become about things parents don't take the time to teach.

And this creates a conflict between those want schools to be babysitters and the end all be all of creating a person out of a child and those who view schools as having a relatively limited role in the life a child and otherwise want to retain control.

There was never a golden age when the two were inextricably linked (people have been arguing over what children should read for a very long time) but as curriculums have increasingly encroached into broader areas of life and "modern" pedagogocal methods the conflict has grown more pronounced. And it isn't always from the right; in high school I had a friend whose parents pulled him from a "life math class" (essentially household finances and stuff for students not cutting it in the standard math progression) because it had strayed from how to balance a checkbook into a semester long stock market game that was teaching capitalism as the way the world worked (and the parents were very much communists and unhappy with this).

There will always be stupid parents and incompetent teachers (I've never really met a stupid teacher but plenty who masked their intelligence well) and it is easy to hide behind these outlyers, but it is also disingenuous to deny that the reach of public schools into new areas of a pupils "education" hasn't greatly expanded and that perhaps parents have some reason to be disconcerted.

[lindyhop]

I guess where I differ is that I don't think it is the job of schools to teach children to be "well rounded human beings."
Yes and no. Maybe I should have just said "human being." I think parents, churches, extended family, whatever, are also responsible for producing a functioning member of society. But schools get a big chunk of kid's time so I think they have a big chunk of the responsibility.

I think the big problem with our society is that education has come to be defined solely as something that happens between the ages of 5 and 18, between the months of September and June, and between the hours of 7:30 and 3:00 inside a building placed within a few miles of your home. And therefore we feel that everything we think a person should know has to be crammed into that window.
Or not included at all. When will I ever use calculus in real life? Why do I have to know about the Magna Carta? Just teach me to balance my checkbook and I'll be set. Wait, I can hire someone to do that. Never mind.

A certain subset then extends this to the age of 22 or so. But then the vast huge majority of people stop their "education."
I totally believe in lifetime learning. This isn't supported in our society though. Most people are just interested in results. (What are you planning to do with that degree anyway?)

[tracilicious]

For me, it's not about exposure. Show them whatever you like. My only problem would be if the teacher were attempting to tell the child that thier opinions were correct. This includes "This is the true God", "This is the true political belief", etc. Oh, and of course - "Your parents are wrong."

Anything else, I can deal with just fine, because my child needs to learn how to seperate the wheat from the chaff. What a wonderful learning opportunity it is when a child comes home with something to talk about!


I completely agree, to a point. I think exposing kids to things is fantastic and something that should be expected, but it needs to be a least somewhat age appropriate. If a teacher showed my first grader Schindler's List, I'd be pissed. My sixth grader, great stuff to talk about.

More than anything this thread has reinforced my resolve that my kids will never go to public school. They just suck. Too many kids, not enough money, too much politics, underpaid and undermotivated teachers. Very large changes would need to happen for me to consider them adequate or a good use of my childs time. Thankfully I live in a state where Charter schools abound and I will have my pick of Montessori schools to choose from. Should that not work out I am educated enough to know that I can homeschool and still have a socially active, well rounded, educated child (I didn't used to think that was possible, but I now know better).

One positive thing from that article, at least the parents were complaining. So many parents aren't involved at all in their kids school. But it's a flawed system as a whole and no one component can be blamed for the whole's shortcomings.

Congratulations to all LoT posters because this thread has reached two pages without it turning political. Woohoo!

[scaeagles]

Congratulations to all LoT posters because this thread has reached two pages without it turning political. Woohoo!

Well, the dumbing down of education is because of all those damn liberals!;)