Are you racist?

[The Shadoe]

Frequently, Republicans are labeled as racists because they don't support such programs as Affirmative Action. I, myself, am one of those Republicans who don't support Affirmative Action. And of course, this does not make me a racist.
Growing up playing hoops as the sole white kid on my team in Five Points Denver, I experienced first-hand the problems that face our poorest communities. The public education system has failed the black American. And affirmative action has only compounded the problem by telling the black American that he or she is not as intelligent or capable as the white American and therefore needs a helping hand to be equal. That is racism.

Source (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560950/posts)

I am taking an African-American Literature class right now, and I find it very interesting hearing the perspectives of my very liberal (and pro-affirmative action) black professor and my political science professor who is a hard-core black Republican. It's amazing how different they are, especially when it comes down to racial issues.

According to the Lit teacher, I am enjoying a hidden white supremacy every time I walk into a department store, (especially my favorite store, Marshall Field's). My poli sci professor says that if the police were targetting black people he wouldn't ever drive anywhere.

Just curious... we all like to think that we are beyond the race issue, but deep at heart, are we?

[Ghoulish Delight]

My poli sci professor says that if the police were targetting black people he wouldn't ever drive anywhere.Ask your professor when the last time he drove through Compton in his professor-salary car was. Now, I'm not saying the cops don't have good reason to racially profile in an area like that (nor am I saying they do). All I'm saying is that one black professor in St. Paul Minnesota who's never been harassed hardly disproves anything. Not exactly a representative sampling.

As for affirmative action "telling the black American that he or she is not as intelligent or capable as the white American and therefore needs a helping hand to be equal," that's one way to spin it. The other way is to say that the concentration of minority children in poor, underfunded schools and living conditions unsuited to learning mean that relying purely on comparing test scores and grades as college entrance criteria puts them at an instant disadvantage.

[Alex]

I think affirmative action as a government policy is a horrible thing. I think affirmative action as a private industry policy is a very good thing.

Unfortunately, the latter without the former would in many ways be illegal.

But I also think that employers should have the right to not hire based on religion, ethnicity, and race if that is there preference (if I was aware of it, I would refuse my business; but I think they have the right to decide they don't want my business) so I don't think anybody takes my opinions seriously on this issue.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I personally don't know that I find affirmative action a particularly good solution to the problem. But neither do I find that there isn't a problem that needs a solution.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Alex, I tend to agree with you. In a perfect world, people should be able to do business with whomever they want. I used to be fully in that camp, including "I should be able to sell a home to whomever I want" and "I should be able to hire whomever I want". And like you said, such practices should be open so that I can take my business away from racist sellers/buyers.

But the truth is that without Big Brother looking over the shoulders of the prejudiced idiots of this country, things don't change. I look at the pictures of people screaming and trying to attack Ruby Bridges, only 40 years ago, and I shudder. Those people were not going to change unless Big Brother forced them to.

I HATE affirmative action, and I'd love to see it go away, but that's because I live in liberal Southern California. Outside of my bubble there are still racist bastards that will not give people of other races a chance. I don't know what to do about it though. Affirmative action is a fcked up solution, the same way many of our "solutions" suck.

As for profiling....jeez, what a can of worms that is.

[Prudence]

I'm of mixed feelings. On the one hand, I dislike every sitting in on every faculty search while they try to decide if applicants are sufficiently ethnic based on their names. Why? Because every time we submit grant applications to certain *federal* agencies they require us to document our attempts to hire "diverse" faculty, how many applied, how many were interviewed, and how many were hired.

It's doubly frustrating in this particular work environment, because in nursing men *are* a minority. Male nursing students regularly complain that there's "no one who looks like them" on the faculty. But we get dinged for every man we hire because we're supposed to be hiring women.

At the same time, I still get irritated when I think about the time a potential employer called to tell me that they just didn't feel comfortable hiring me because the job involved a lot of computer use and therefore they really wanted to find a man to do the job because men are usually better with computers.

So, while most of my experiences are gender and not race based, it has given me some insight into the pros and cons of affirmative action and similar policies.

I suppose I think it would be healthier for all if we admitted we all have biases in some form or another, and then worked out how to prevent those biases from playing a role in our professional lives.

For example: hire/promote/fire/demote whomever you want, but you'd best document your actions and they'd best support your actions. If you're all green cats and out of 20 applicants you hire the one green cat because they have twice the experience of the 19 red dogs, I wouldn't see a problem. If you hire the green cat and that green cat has half the experience of the 19 red dogs, I get suspicious.

(for the record, in my personal case it was a job as a state employee in a tax payer-funded position. as a tax payer, I want them to hire the most qualified person, not the person the feel most "comfortable" with. fvck comfortable and get the job done already.)

I'm totally blathering again. Sorry.

[MickeyLumbo]

I still get irritated when I think about the time a potential employer called to tell me that they just didn't feel comfortable hiring me because the job involved a lot of computer use and therefore they really wanted to find a man to do the job because men are usually better with computers.



that is outrageous. damn. how long ago was this? i hope you sued his ignorant azz. unbelievable. i guess it would tough to sue if you weren't prepared to record the brief phone conversation. the bastard would have been smart enough to deny saying it while testifying.

so sorry you experienced this, Prudence.

[Gemini Cricket]

that is outrageous.
Totally. I'm a man and I'm horrid with computers. But I do love my Commodore 64.

[€uroMeinke]

I think the concept behind affirmative action is a good one - that is to make sure that in your recruiting/outreach/bidding, you look to a broader more diverse pool of candidates rather than narrowly focus on one community (that has no basis on the thing you're recruiting for)

However, I think the attempt to montior and measure these programs often has disasterous effects for the programs themselves - you get what you measure.

[scaeagles]

However, I think the attempt to montior and measure these programs often has disasterous effects for the programs themselves - you get what you measure.

I've always thought it was funny when people who are pro affirmative action people say that they aren't looking for quotas, they only want to measure your progress in diversity by checking how many of each race and/or gender you have hired. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[€uroMeinke]

I've always thought it was funny when people who are pro affirmative action people say that they aren't looking for quotas, they only want to measure your progress in diversity by checking how many of each race and/or gender you have hired. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Exactly - the metrics kill the program.

[Gemini Cricket]

Just curious... we all like to think that we are beyond the race issue, but deep at heart, are we?
Nope. I don't think we are.

But then I think we're all racist. In some way. We all make assumptions based on someone's race. I think if someone says they don't, they're not being honest.

Just my 2 cents.

[Not Afraid]

I make assumptions based on race without even thinking about. Take a ride on the Blue Line through South Central and tell me issues of race don't come up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Stereotype reactions are an important in-built mental tool that allows people to make on-the-fly decissions when no other information is available. It becomes a problem when people allow those incomplete, emergency-need-only impressions to guide decissions that should be based on real world facts, not sketchy assumptions.

[scaeagles]

Nope. I don't think we are.

But then I think we're all racist. In some way. We all make assumptions based on someone's race.

I've found that I am more of an "economicist" than I ever have been a racist. I don't make assumptions about someone based on their race, but I frequently do based on the way someone is dressed or how they walk or whatever.

If I see a group of kids in their late teens walking through a neighborhood dressed in gang clothes with their hats on backwards, I get nervous. I don't care what race they are. If I am in the mall and a couple black guys walk by, I don't notice more than if anyone else walks by.

[Not Afraid]

Yeah, dress has a big part of it.

The most racist think I've done lately (which I hate to admit, but it shows just how ingrained it is), a few weeks after we had a prowler I saw a guy dressed similarly to our prowler (dark sweatshirt with hood up) running down the street. I watched him with suspicion and told Fej about it. He suggested the guy may have been jogging.

The next day, I saw the same guy running down the streat wearing the same jacket. He was jogging. :rolleyes:

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't make assumptions about someone based on their race, So when you see someone who looks Hispanic, you don't assume there's good odds they speak Spanish? Or someone says, "mind if I bring my friend David Goldberg over for brunch," you don't think that maybe bagles and lox would make a good choice to serve?

These are just broad buckets that ease social interaction in the short term. It means people don't have to walk around with life-history pamphlets so that we can start conversations with each other. As long as we realize that those generalizations are simply a start point, not an end point, it's a useful thing. It's only when people mistake "stereotype" for "general truth" that things become problematic.

[innerSpaceman]

I admit it. I'm a racist. There are certain races or nationalities of people where, in my mind, you start off with a black mark against you that I will give you every chance to erase, if you can. But you start off with that mark in my mind.

With me, the black mark starters are arabs and Germans. Others mileage may vary.








(and I wouldn't be at all surprised if whites and/or Americans - two groups I happen to belong to - are high on the black-mark list of many people in the world)

[scaeagles]

So when you see someone who looks Hispanic, you don't assume there's good odds they speak Spanish? Or someone says, "mind if I bring my friend David Goldberg over for brunch," you don't think that maybe bagles and lox would make a good choice to serve?

I'm sure there are various cultural things, but i'm pretty culturally ignorant. The bagels and lox - wouldn't even cross my mind. The hispanic speaking spanish - probably, but I wouldn't assume they didn't speak English.

Is making an assumption about such things being observant or being racist? I guess it's a fine line.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm sure there are various cultural things, but i'm pretty culturally ignorant. The bagels and lox - wouldn't even cross my mind. The hispanic speaking spanish - probably, but I wouldn't assume they didn't speak English.I simply picked a couple examples. Your mileage may vary. The point being we all make certain immediate assumptions based on very limited information on a person (whether it's their race, their mannerisms, their clothing) that gives us a starting point to then build a more complete picture. The don't all have to fall into the "someone would be offended if they knew I assumed this" category.

Is making an assumption about such things being observant or being racist? I guess it's a fine line.Like I said (twice), making assumptions is not racist. It's hardwired into our brain and is what allows us to be social beings (and likely allowed us to survive prehistorically, as that kind of pattern recognition helps avoid dangerous situations). It's erroneously using those assumptions as a be-all guide for actions and decission making that carries one into the realm of racism.

[Alex]

The ways in which I'm "racist" tend to be probabilistic. I put racist in quotes because I'm not necessarily meaning just negative things but simply conclusions based solely on race.

I see a Hispanic person and I know that they are more likely to speak Spanish or have difficulty speaking English but I don't assume that to be true of this particular person. But if I walk into a fast food restaurant and see a Hispanic person working the register I will approach them more mentally prepared to deal with a language barrier than I might be if it were a white person (though of course, it is certainly possible they have a language problem as well).

I know that a black person is more likely to have grown up poor, with imprisoned relatives, and raised by grandparents but I don't assume that to be true about any particular anonymous black person.

No, it wouldn't occur to me that David Goldberg might want bagels and lox, but that is for two reasons: 1) despite the fact that it is also an ethnicity I tend to view Jewishness as primarily religious and I really don't care about religion and 2) I don't view bagels and lox as particularly Jewish. Similarly, when I look at "soul food" I recognize it as really just being poor Southern food (my grandparents ate the same stuff on the farm); it's just that for most Northern whites the first poor Southerners they met were blacks migrating from the south and therefore the food they ate became associated with blacks.

Anyway, I definitely use race to make probabilistic predictions about people but I do that with any other possible clue about people (age, dress, geography) and do my best not to actually act based solely on probabilistic predictions. As long as race is associated with differentiating predictors, "racism" can't really go away and may actually have some value.

But no, I have never liked or disliked somebody simply because of the color of their skin. I may like or dislike behaviors that have some racial correlations (and such correlations almost never anything to do with inherent racial qualities) but I do my best to differentiate correlation from causation.

[Prudence]

Perhaps with racisim there's an element of retaining the initial classification despite evidence to the contrary?

[Alex]

Not that I'm aware of, but then I've spent most of my life in intensely integrated environments (much of the time with whites being a minority). While there are certainly trends that are of worth to note I've spent too much time with the actual people to get too caught up on expecting individuals to match the group average.

Of course, who am I know to? Mostly I'm just opposed to prideful ignorance and that has no racial correlation that I'm aware of.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I come from racist stock-- from farmers, in Michigan. I made it a life goal to get my mother to stop saying "jew him down" the way that she made it her life goal to get her mother to stop saying "n gger." She and I were both successful... and boy am I glad, because racial slurs make my skin crawl.

That said, I'm sure there are ways that I am racist. I have never been particularly into the hip-hop culture in terms of music, or fashion. Is that racist? Or is that preferencial? Are the two mutually exclusive?

I'm the minority on the metro, but it doesn't stop me from smiling at the other people or talking to them. But if someone is loud or aggressive or rude, it doesn't matter if they're white or black or purple polka-dotted, I'm going to shy away.

When it comes to alternative action, I really think our time and energy and money ought to be concentrated on where the problem starts. Why aren't we putting more money into the poorest school districts? If they grow up and remain in the same district, chances are they won't have a lot of money to fund those districts, and if they do they'll probably be moving out of them. You can't help these things retroactively nearly as much as you could have pre-emptively.

[scaeagles]

Why aren't we putting more money into the poorest school districts? If they grow up and remain in the same district, chances are they won't have a lot of money to fund those districts, and if they do they'll probably be moving out of them. You can't help these things retroactively nearly as much as you could have pre-emptively.

While a bit off topic, increase in money does not equate to a better education.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

While a bit off topic, increase in money does not equate to a better education.

Yes, that's true. But it's very difficult to establish a better education without that money.

Think of the sad state of textbooks and materials in a poorly-funded school district. And if you don't have enough teachers per student (or qualified enough ones) the quality of education is going to suffer.

(also, if you read the sentence before the one you quoted, I also referred to requiring time and energy to help improve those school districts.)

[scaeagles]

(also, if you read the sentence before the one you quoted, I also referred to requiring time and energy to help improve those school districts.)

Understood, and I wasn't meaning to take you out of context.

[Gemini Cricket]

So...

French people stink.
Southern Americans are uneducated.
Black people are violent.
White people are out of touch.
Mexican people steal.
Germans are Nazis.
Americans are oppressive.
Polish people are stupid.
Italians are mafia members.
Scottish people are tight with money.
Chinese people are cheap.
Japanese people are electronics wizards.
Koreans are the stepchildren of Asia.
Native Americans are alcoholics.
Hawaiians are lazy.
Portuguese people are dumb.
Samoans are thugs.
The British are superior to everyone else.
Finnish people live in their saunas.
Russians are Communists.
Anyone from the Middle East is a terrorist.

Did I miss any?
;)

Edited to add: I'm several of the above.
:D

[Prudence]

What about the drunken Irish?

[Gemini Cricket]

What about the drunken Irish?
Yep, forgot them.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Chinese people are cheap.

Did I miss any?Chinese are cheap? I thought it was those dirty Jews*...?
You also forgot that all gay men have the AIDS.
All gay people are trying to convert/recruit the Breeders into the Homasexshul Lifestyle©


*Chill people—it's a joke!

[Gemini Cricket]

You also forgot that all gay men have the AIDS...

I was going for race issues. But I do get your meaning, Girlfriend.
;) :D

[Alex]

Except you hardly mentioned any racial stereotypes but rather nationalist stereotypes. Which points out another issue with racism, our tendency to equate culture with race in a causal relationship where there is none.

[Gemini Cricket]

Except you hardly mentioned any racial stereotypes but rather nationalist stereotypes. Which points out another issue with racism, our tendency to equate culture with race in a causal relationship where there is none.
You lost me on that one...
:confused:

[Ghoulish Delight]

You lost me on that one...
:confused:"Polish" is not a race, it's a nationality.

[Gemini Cricket]

"Polish" is not a race, it's a nationality.
I get it.
But don't both play a part in stereotypes about people? That's what the list is stereotypes of people's race, nationality etc.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I get it.
But don't both play a part in stereotypes about people? That's what the list is stereotypes of people's race, nationality etc.
Yes, but in explaining why you didn't include gay stereotypes, you said you were limiting your list to race. Alex was simply pointing out that in doing so, you highlighted a common confusion between race and nationality that adds to the complexity of the issue.

[Gemini Cricket]

Yes, but in explaining why you didn't include gay stereotypes, you said you were limiting your list to race.
I see. Then I revise what I said.

[innerSpaceman]

But Alex can himself be confused about what's a race and what's something else. He has said he sees Jews as a religious group, whereas it's primarily a race. I have no religion, and yet I am certainly a jew. It's my DNA, not my spiritual beliefs, which determine that.

How can we separate race from nationality from religion when we can't even agree on which is which?

[Gemini Cricket]

How can we separate race from nationality from religion when we can't even agree on which is which?
That is one of the reasons I didn't put Jewish people on my list (which was a joke until it was picked apart - unfunny bastards - <---that was a joke, too) because I'm confused about the matter.

So, am I to say I am a Catholic because I was born into the faith and baptized? I resigned from the Catholic Church in '97, so I'm no longer officially Catholic or am I?

Confused again. Which ain't hard, baby!
:confused:

[Alex]

I have no problem recognizing "Jew" as a race, I just treat it first and foremost as a religion. I'm not confused about what being "Jewish" is. Just as you are still a Jew without being observant it is possible for a non-genetically-Jewish person to become Jewish at least religiously. Historically it is the religious side of the coin that has lead to separation and harrassment of Jews, not the racial side of the coin (in fact, during a strongly anti-semitic period in 18th century it was simultaneously in vogue to theorize that the British people were of Judaic origin).

But yes, it is a tricky issue because the exact definition of "race" and "racism" are to large extents in the eye of the beholder.

Are the Japanese and Chinese people separate races? How about Italians and Greeks? Canadians and Americans? Haitians and Dominicans? If the Japanese had tried to kill all the Singaporeans in Singapore during WWII were they committing genocide or ethnic cleansing and what exactly is the difference between the two.

What I was pointing out above (in humorlessly picking apart GC joke) was that the question of racism is only made more difficult when issues of culture (nuture) are equated with race (nature). If you run into a rude white Frenchman, do you decide it is because he is white or because he is French or just because he is rude? If surveys show that on average the French are ruder than Spaniards, is it because of racial or cultural differences? Is it invalid to point out that by at least one standard the French are, on average, ruder than Spaniards?

Is stereotyping people because of culture more, less, or similarly offensive as stereotyping people because of race?

Arabs are genetically inclined towards behaviors that, by Western standards, are misogynistic.

Arabian cultures are, by Western standards, mysogynistic.

While Mullah Bob is mysogynistic, you can make no generalizations about Arabs as a race or Arabian cultures.

How do those three sentences fit into what is racist and what is not?

Of course, then there is the fact that in academic anthropology and genetics circles you'll find debate as to whether the concept of "race" is even a valid one.

[Not Afraid]

I really can't separate race from culture as two independant factors that make up a person. They are intertwined like a DNA helix.

I'm Scotish, English, and Irish but, cultrually that has little influence on me. It only influences my predisposition for certain physical traits. Culturally, I'm 80% So Cal with a heavy dose of "back East" thrown in. But, I'm much less complex than many others in this world - my husband being a good example of more cultural blending.

You know, I was warned by my Mom that Germans hold grudges. So, who married me fro a 2nd time? Some Kraut. Go figure.

[innerSpaceman]

Which is why I think we oughta just use the term "racism" more loosely, since there's no valid replacement term out there. Nationality, race, religion, gender and sexual orientation all come under the umbrella of the stereotypes and discrimination we are usually talking about when we talk about "racism."

We don't we just accept that the term encompasses far more than "race" (whatever that is) and throw some thought into the more interesting (imo) topics of whether we are racists, to what degree, what we might propose to battle the effects of racism on either a personal or world level?



I'll go first.

I have no solutions. I agree with GD that stereotypes can be useful for a quick, preliminary analysis - but that's as far as they should go. I think affirmative action is deeply flawed, and deeply necessary. There's nothing on this earth that going to stop me from my personal bigotry against Germans and arabs.

I get ticked off when blacks get upset with gays for comparing the struggle for gay rights with the struggle for civil rights.

I get ticked off when jews (specifically Israelis) act towards others (cough*Palestinians*cough) with the same oppression that jews themselves have complained of for centuries.

I'm bummed that I'm too lazy to learn Spanish at my age, and somewhat resent that it's become necessary to speak two languages in my region of the United States.

I'm generally glad that I've always lived in racially diverse cities, but note that I have experienced and seen that people, in general, tend to mix only with members of their own race. I have very few friends that are not white, and I usually see Asians with Asians, Latinos with Latinos, and blacks with blacks. It's good that I see plenty of blacks and Latinos and Asians, but I look forward to a time when we all mix it up a little bit more.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Prudence]

Interesting. My perception up in our frosty PNW is that asians, latinos, and whites intermix a fair amount, at least in my social circle, but not so much with blacks. But cross the mountains to the east and there's a serious white/latino split. Of course, I know that perceptions vary. My school buddy is from LA and armenian/coptic egyptian, and to her eye we skew way white and exclusionary.

It might be my perception that's off, come to think of it. I tend to run in "misfit" circles and if we are skewed toward the white, the misfit circle might be more diverse than the surrounding population.

[blueerica]

Interesting thoughts going on in here. I've had to do a great deal of thinking on this in my ethnic lit class, and I suppose that I've never really liked the term race, nor the idea that DNA has anything to do with anything. I prefer to refer to these things under the terms ethnicity, and culture, especially since I am now spending a great deal of time thinking and talking about it.

Though I wouldn't have thought I made stereotypical assumptions often, I find myself doing so more based on dress and speech than anything else. I find myself identifying with those like myself. I tend to disregard skin color, and look at the book they're reading, or the clothing that they wear, maybe even the music that they listen to, and make assumptions as to what they might be like, or what they might do in their free time.

As others have stated above, I must add that I'm not fond of affirmative action legislation. From a business standpoint, a business should hire whomever will do the job best, for a fair wage. Skin color shouldn't be an issue... do what is best for your business, you racist sonofa... ;)

Government would be wiser to find ways to actually improve the education system (and I don't condone throwing money at the problem), from which we will get gifted minds, no matter what they might look like on the outside.

[blueerica]

Oh, god, and I just had to watch Birth of a Nation. What a piece of crap that film is, technical achievements or not...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Interesting thoughts going on in here. I've had to do a great deal of thinking on this in my ethnic lit class, and I suppose that I've never really liked the term race, nor the idea that DNA has anything to do with anything.That's another interesting line of discussion to begin. I persoanally don't see how genetics can't be a contributor to behavior. I have little doubt that identical twins, for instance, will have more in common with each other behaviorally than even fraternal twins do.

That being said (and I've made this argument several times in the past), that's only part of the equation. I believe there's a range of degrees one can be genetically predisposed to certain traits. Some traits a person will exhibit no matter what their environment. Some will only be triggered if they're raised in a certain environment. And others will never show up no matter the environment. So while I think it's being a bit blind to say, "Behavioral differentiation between 'races' based on genetics is bogus", I think it's equally blind to think that one can separate the genetics from the environment.

It's all a matter of macro vs. micro. On the macro level, from a statistcal perspective, one can show that a wide sampling of people of X 'race' will be affected differently by some environmental factor than a similar sampling f people of Y 'race'. But on the micro level, everyone's an individual and while you can make some educated guesses, it's a falacy to assume things about an individual based on those broader statistical analyses.

[Gemini Cricket]

Oh, god, and I just had to watch Birth of a Nation. What a piece of crap that film is, technical achievements or not...
Haw haw. You had to watch 'Birth of a Nation.' Bleh. :D

[innerSpaceman]

In light of recent events, I've decided to go racist against all Islamists.


They've decided it's them or us, and under those limited choices, I am picking "us."

[blueerica]

Haw haw. You had to watch 'Birth of a Nation.' Bleh. :D

Yeah, worse yet.. this is NOT my first time, not my second, but the THIRD time I've had to watch it for a class. I slept through part of it yesterday. Damn those technical acheivements and their racist message! (KKK saves the day, baby!)

[blueerica]

I would actually agree with you, GD, quite a bit. There are things that I do, food preferences, sense of humor, that I share with family members I only see occasionally... but I see those similarities on a micro level, not a macro level. It is the society in which these various ethnicities grow through that creates a label on themselves as a group, and the labels we apply toward one another, as groups.

For myself, I have a hard time justifying having a belief about someone before I get to know them, based on their ethnicity. I cannot know the circumstances of how someone's life has affected them, or how someone's genetics may or may not have played a role. DNA within an ethnic group plays a far greater role in terms of biological function, shared genetic weaknesses (diabetes, various diseases and "syndromes"), or even strengths, than personality, or ability to think, which is where the center of most "racist" thought comes from. Crazy is as crazy does, and crazy can be genetically transferred on (loose terms) in the micro level, whether you're black, white, red, yellow or brown. I just don't see the argument genetics even playing a deciding role on a person's behavior.

On a side note, a long looong time ago I dated a black man. When I decided that we would be better off as friends, the first thing out of his mouth was "It's because I'm black, right?! I didn't pin you for being a racist..." I was shocked. My reasons were only because the conversation was a little dull for my tastes, but I never did forget his immediate reaction - the assumption that *I* was racist, likely only on account of my being white.

[Alex]

An personal anecdote on how "racism" is a term with many definitions to many people.

Back in college I took an expository writing class and one of the papers was on Spike Lee's film Do the Right Thing. I forget what the exact topic was, but when explaining the assignment the instructor explained that we could not make an argumen that any of the black people in the film were racist since it is, by definition, impossible for a black American to be racist. Part of racism is being in the dominant power group.

Any paper that made such an argument would fail.

Me being me I made such and argument just because this pissed me off so much. Got and F on the paper, got a C in the class and never stepped foot in the University of Washington Department of English again.

I don't have a problem with the idea of ambigous concepts with fuzzy areas around the edges, but when being labelled as "racist" or "racism" has only strongly negative impacts then I think the term needs to be narrowly defined so that everyone knows what you mean by it. For many saying "some types of racism are more acceptable or understandable than others" is like saying "some forms of rape are more ok."

Just as the expansion of the word rape to include increasingly less rape-like activities dilutes the horror of actual rape, the expansion of "racism" to include increasingly less "racist" behaviors dilutes the horror of actual racism.

The expectation that we all react with equal horror to the statement that perhaps there are racial difference in native intelligence or athleticism (which generally would only show up at the extreme ends of the distribution curve) as with the statement that blacks shouldn't be allowed in the same room with whites will, if nothing else, lead to outrage fatigue.