Okay, NOW I can talk about it

[Kevy Baby]

A cloud over the Kevy/Gus household has been lifted. This has been weighing heavily on us recently.

A couple of months ago, Susan received a Federal Court jury summons. The letter said this was a special summons for a trial that could last up to seven (or more) months. Of course, it did not say much more than that (other than where/when to report).

We are civic (and community) minded people. While we may not relish the thought of spending seven months on a jury, we realize that it is our responsibility as members of the community. On the face, we would not just automatically seek a way out. It's just what we do.

About three weeks ago, she finally went to the Santa Ana (CA) Federal Court. Turns out that for this case, the court had sent out 10,000 jury summons. 214 potential jurors were there that day. They were spread out amongst three court rooms as they listened to the indictments against the four defendants.

It took an hour and 15 minutes just to read the indictments (because there were SO many charges).

Seems the men charged are very bad people. You can read one story I found about them here (http://ktla.trb.com/news/la-me-aryan13feb13,0,6435923.story?coll=ktla-news-1). These guys are the heads of the Aryan Brotherhood prison gang. THE heads. The Feds are going after them for arranging and approving many murders from inside of their individual prison cells. These guys are already serving life sentences for previous crimes. Now they are getting charged not only with murder, but racketeering, drug crimes, etc.

To be blunt - this is a scary-assed case!

After her first day, when she found out who the defendants were and what the charges were, she was scared to death. She met me for lunch after she got out and it took the whole of our hour together to stop shaking. After that it was major anxiety time. Mostly for her, but for me as well.

I mean, how could one feel safe as a juror deciding the fate of men who had no trouble arranging murders, both inside and outside the prison walls!

As much as we want to do our part, there was no way that Susan was going to sit on that jury. We would have fled the country if there was no other way out (I am serious about this!).

The good news is that she has been excused as of Tuesday. While she did not (and of course would not) lie on the questionaires and during the interview, she certainly made no effort to conceal certain aspects. Of course she wore a dress that allowed her tattoo to be clearly seen (it runs up her right leg from her foot to currently just below her knee). And she made sure to mention that she practices Wicca and often meets with her Coven (I think it was a question about religion).

But it has made me think: how DO they seat a jury for a trial like this? How could anyone feel safe? We figured that probably there were enough people that planned on writing a book to cash in on the experience. Can they really find enough truly objective jurors that wouldn't be too afraid of the consequences to convict people like this (assuming they are guilty)?

And during either the interview or on the questionaire (I can't remember which she said it was), she was asked about the death penalty. While I am rethinking my pro-death penalty stance (thanks to a post by GD not too long ago that appealed to my pragmatic side), how could you NOT (assuming conviction) give these guys the death penalty? They are ALREADY serving life sentences and they've proven that being in prison has not stopped them from commiting their crimes.

I've still got the heebie-jeebies from thinking about this.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Yeah, I can definitely see how the proposition of sitting on that jury would weight heavy on the heart. I'm a civic minded person as well and would have no problem sitting on a jury in most cases. Something like this though? I would most certainly have reservations about. Although, the fact that I'm quite anti-death penalty would probably have gotten me kicked.

I'm glad to hear that you can put this behind you now. I can only imagine the stress it has caused.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I'm glad you had each other, and were able to get through the anxiety together. That is a frightening case. Probably more exciting to be on that jury than on most others. I never want to do jury duty. It's not a question of duty, but an awareness of my own lack of conviction, the fact that I’m sometimes easily persuaded and that I’m moody, and my moods affect my decision making abilities. I really shouldn’t be allowed on a jury.

[wendybeth]

I probably shouldn't be on a jury whilst PMS'ing, that's for sure.

Scary, KB! It's a tough call- you want to do your civic duty, but don't necessarily feel quite like dying for it just yet. Truth be told, Aryan guys don't scare me too much, as we shared space up here in the PNW with them for some time and I think they are just sad, sorry excuses for people. Dangerous, yes, but not quite as scary as that M-something gang. (Name escapes me at the moment). At any rate, I'm relieved for Susan and you, and hope the next call to duty will involve less frightening legal infractions.

[Gemini Cricket]

I thought we had prisons in Siberia for people like this. Yikes.

Was she ever in the same room with these turds? I don't know how jury selection works. I don't know if the defendants get to stick around during this time.

I'm glad Susan didn't get chosen. I worry for the ones that do.

The whole thing kind of reminds me of characters from HBO's 'Oz'. Yuck.

Thank you for sharing this story with us. :) You know, you guys could write a story about it already. I mean, the safety of any jury member really can't be guaranteed...

[Snowflake]

Wow! That is seriously scary!
I have no problems doing my civic duty and serving on a jury (yeah, I grumble), but those cases have always been short, small affairs. Nothing of this magnitude!

Glad Susan has been excused! Peace and safety to you both!

Donna

[€uroMeinke]

I've done many a tour of Jury duty, but have never served on a Jury. Somehow I am always thanked an excused. I think t's my insistance to respond with disclaimer statements.

"sure I can can apply the law - as long as the law is just"

"Can I be objective? Of course not, isn't that why you're selecting 11 other jurors to serve with me? I cannot excape my own subjectivity"

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Gracious! I'm so glad she's not on there.

[Gemini Cricket]

I have never been on a jury. I've been called to show up several times. Each time, even before we get into the courtroom, they see that my father is a retired police sargeant and they did miss me. The last time I went, they said it had something to do with him being in Internal Affairs. But I think it had to do with the particular case at hand.

I've testified as a witness before. That's fun. A woman had passed a forged check to me at a bank when I was a teller. I was suspicious of her, but her ID and signature matched. Come to find out both were fraudulent. I had to show up and identify the woman.

'Is Ms. X here in the room, Brad?'
'Yes, she is.'
'Can you point to Ms. X?'
'Right there.'
There was a collective gasp in the room. (Okay, there was no gasp, but I pictured it in my mind.) :D

I made the courtroom laugh, though. I thought that was cool. I was the tenth bank clerk they had seen that day and all involved looked pretty tired. After I was sworn in I said, 'You guys all look like you want to be somewhere else.'
Everyone laughed. Including (and especially) Ms. X.
She later confessed and went to jail. She was like 19 or something.

:)

I'd love to sit on a jury. Lots of places will pay your wages for during your duty.

[scaeagles]

I would hate to serve on a case where I felt my family could be in danger.

i believe - and I am no lawyer - that juries are under no obligation to rule based on law. Perhaps that's some falsehood I picked up somewhere.

I've never served. My borther in law is a well known police officer in the Phoenix metro area, and when they hear that, they won't allow me to serve on criminal cases. I've never been called for civil duty.

[Moonliner]

And she made sure to mention that she practices Wicca and often meets with her Coven (I think it was a question about religion)

You pegans get all the great benefits. All I ever get is stale bread and cardboard box quality wine. Pity I don't believe in transubstantiation. Even that would have to taste better than the wine...

[Kevy Baby]

Was she ever in the same room with these turds?On the first day, no (she was in one of the other court rooms linked via CCTV). But on Tuesday (when she was interviewed by the judge and lawyers) she was. As was mentioned in the article, the defendants were all cleaned up and well dressed, acting quite personable. However, what couldn't be seen by the jury was the fact that the defense tables were specially built to hide the fact that these guys were chained to the floor!

Armed with a shank, Barry "The Baron" Mills, the kingpin of the Aryan Brotherhood prison gang, nearly decapitated an inmate in a bathroom stall for hoarding drugs.

Edgar "The Snail" Hevle, a trusted lieutenant in the Brotherhood, allegedly arranged for the murder of a prisoner who threw a packet of sugar at him, a slight he apparently considered worthy of a violent death.

And Tommy "Terrible Tom" Silverstein, who had earned his stripes by killing three inmates, escaped from his shackles on the way back from the prison showers and killed a guard by stabbing him 20 times.How does one get a nickname like "The Snail"?

[Ghoulish Delight]

How does a "Silverstein" end up in the Aryan Brotherhood?

[Ponine]

I saw GusGus at NA's house shortly after this started, even though she said very little that day, she was still very upset by the prospect, and dreading what was to come. I think this was even before she found out who and what it was.

I'm glad its over. That appeared to be a heavy weight for her, and I'm very glad she had you there for her.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm glad its over. That appeared to be a heavy weight for her, and I'm very glad she had you there for her.
Totally. What a load off of GG's back. Pretty scary stuff.

[Kevy Baby]

I saw GusGus at NA's house shortly after this started, even though she said very little that day, she was still very upset by the prospect, and dreading what was to come. I think this was even before she found out who and what it was.She knew who it was at that point. She found out the first day.

I actually did serve on a jury several years ago. It is the lowest crime that you can get a jury trial for: petty theft. It was the prosecutor's first case and she didn't do a very good job with it. She would start a line of questions, leading to an obvious destination, and then not finish the thread.

The entire jury knew the guy was guilty (all 12 said so) but we couldn't convict because the evidence was not brought out in court. We actually deliberated for a day and a half! Hung jury.



"They said you was hung."

"And they was right!"

[innerSpaceman]

Thank Goddess that GusGus is a tattooed witch!!

I am so relieved she got out of that mess! That being said, tho, where would my family be without the brave jurors who convicted the gangsters that shot and paralyzed my nephew? It's a very tough call to make when someone must step up to the plate ... but not you or your loved ones.



Interesting to think about this "Silverstein" case as regards my stance on the death penalty (anti). How do you go further than life in prison without treading into the territory of taking human life (a major verboten to me, whether done by "state" or man)?

Perhaps this veers near cruel or unusual, but for these guys - if convicted of conducting murders while already serving life sentences - I'd go for permanent solitary confinement with no human contact ever again.


(Oh, and for Silverstein, who betrays his race by somehow managing to join the Aryan Brotherhood under false pretenses of a silly nickname, I'd have no problem with ritual torture.)

[Kevy Baby]

I am so relieved she got out of that mess! That being said, tho, where would my family be without the brave jurors who convicted the gangsters that shot and paralyzed my nephew? It's a very tough call to make when someone must step up to the plate ... but not you or your loved ones.I'll admit it; it's a tough call. If not Susan, then who?

But if one fears that their life could genuinely be in peril simply by sitting on a jury, could that person render a true and honest verdict? The fear of retribution could be enough to sway an individual, and it only takes one juror to keep from a conviction.

If myself or a loved one sat on this jury and a conviction is rendered, I would be fearful of my and my loved one's safety for the rest of my life. And unfortunately, there are going to be 20 people (they are picking 8 alternates for this trial) that are going to be in that very position.

Thank Goddess that GusGus is a tattooed witch!!LOL! I will somtimes call her Lydia (http://www.whyaduck.com/info/movies/scenes/lydia.htm).

[alphabassettgrrl]

Anything that gets on a Federal court is likely to be pretty nasty. I'm glad Susan was dismissed.

I've only been called for local juries a few times, have never been selected to be on one. I came close once, but I knew they'd bounce me pretty quickly; it was a DUI case and no defence lawyer wants me in the courtroom on his case. "Do you have strong feelings about driving and narcotics?" "Why, yes, I do"

I'd like my jury time to be some time I could actually sit the full trial. Usually they're badly timed. I've got enough down-time in my work, you'd think the jury summons could come during one of those times.

[lindyhop]

I served on a Federal jury two years ago. It was a really fascinating experience and even though it was five dependents and four counts each the whole thing was over in about three weeks.

Reading about this particular case had me remembering that during this trial all the jurors' names were quite openly mentioned in court. I'm used to Superior Court where I'm pretty sure they've switched to just using juror ID numbers. I don't think the defendents in this case were any danger to anyone but themselves, the charges involved conspiracy and extortion and the whole crime was the result of greed and stupidity.

After we gave the verdict (guilty) and were dismissed, the daughter of one of the defendents approached us and wanted to talk. A couple of jurors stuck around but I just wanted to go home. Then a month or two later I had a message on my answering machine from an investigator who apparently was working on the appeal for one of the defendents (the same one whose daughter had approached us) and wanted to talk to me. I got one other message from him but I never called him back.

[Alex]

One could argue that if you fear serving on the jury because of later retribution that you have already disqualified yourself from dispassionate service since you've obviously already reached conclusions about the criminal tendencies of the defendent.

[Alex]

I was curious so looked up if he's actually Jewish.

He's not. His mother remarried when he was young, to a Jew, and he got stuck with the name. No idea if this step-father somehow contributed to later tendencies.

In the process of finding this information I ended up at a message board that doesn't necessarily condemn Silverstein's positions (that's a droll understatement by the way). They claim to be a non-violent Aryan organization. Their logo is a white pride flag with a peace symbol (the inside part anyway).

I now need to go scrub my brain.


Also, there is apparently a Jewish metalsmith named Tommy Silverstein. It is weird to do a search and get a mix of Aryan Nation sites and Jewish art sites.

[Kevy Baby]

One could argue that if you fear serving on the jury because of later retribution that you have already disqualified yourself from dispassionate service since you've obviously already reached conclusions about the criminal tendencies of the defendent.Yes, I wouldn't argue with that. A sense of survival can do that.

[MickeyLumbo]

trial is underway now.

news is describing defendants as ruthless.

32 counts of murder and assasinations.

"the gang would kill anyone who got in the way, or snitched on them".

added "jury is terrified to serve".

thank God GusGus is not on that jury!

the news is saying that security is extremely tight. (proving the extraordinary dangers involved).

there is not enough security that could possibly fully protect this jury from retribution. i feel so sorry for the jury/court officers. heck, i wouldn't even want to be media assigned to the story.

oh good Lord, why am i posting about this? uhh, never mind. carry on.

[Kevy Baby]

thank God GusGus is not on that jury!Thank Goddess

[FEJ]

Thank Goddess

Thank Dog!
:D