Howl's Moving Castle

[Not Afraid]

If you missed it in the theater, the wonderful addition to the Ghibli stable will be released on DVD on March 7th according to Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CDGVOE/ref=pe_snp_VOE/104-9620204-9286314?n=130).

[mousepod]

...along with "My Neighbor Totoro" (finally!) and "Whisper of the Heart". If you see Chernabog, ask him about Whisper. Better yet, ask him to sing the theme song...

[Alex]

I can live without Totoro but I'm excited about the others.

[Not Afraid]

I can live without Totoro but I'm excited about the others.

Say it isn's so!

I love me some Totoro.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

It was certainly beautiful, though I prefer the book's storyline. Cannot wait to watch it again.

[Alex]

Totoro just doesn't do it for me. My favorite Miyazaki (as much as I love Howl's Moving Castle and Spirited Away) is still Porco Rosso.

[innerSpaceman]

I have Howl's on my N'flix save queue already. I wanted to see it in theaters, but it was barely in release. It made 6.2 million in the U.S. .... and, ready? .... 229.4 million worldwide.

Maybe if it was in theaters for longer than a week, people would have had a chance to throw money at it.




Stupid Americans!

[€uroMeinke]

I have Howl's on my N'flix save queue already. I wanted to see it in theaters, but it was barely in release. It made 6.2 million in the U.S. .... and, ready? .... 229.4 million worldwide.

Maybe if it was in theaters for longer than a week, people would have had a chance to throw money at it.




Stupid Americans!

Heh and how much of that 6.2 million came from Claifornia I wonder ;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

I didn't see it in the theaters because as far as I could tell, it was only being shown dubbed near me (you'd think near UCI they'd subtitle it...but no).

[Alex]

Yeah, I believe that it was only released in a dubbed version. For Spirited Away they had both subtitled and dubbed prints and let theaters choose which they wanted. If I recall correctly only a dozen theaters or so opted for the subtitled prints so that is probably why they just skipped that this time around (making prints is expensive).

So my press screening for Howl's Moving Castle was in San Francisco's Japantown and still shown dubbed. At least Disney and Lasseter put a lot of time and effort into making quality dubs.

[mousepod]

It was shown in the US subbed - although on a very limited basis. Call me crazy, but dubbed animation doesn't bother me nearly as much as dubbed live action - probably because the "actors" are really the animators. This is especially true of the Ghibli films in the hands of Lassetter.

Although Billy Crystal did annoy me at first.

[Ghoulish Delight]

While I'm sure the Ghibli/Lassetter films offer some of the best dubbing and wouldn't be horribly offensive, I simply prefer hearing the original language. There's just a certain quality to language that, no matter how good the translation, can never quite be captured in a dub. "Isn't that cuuuute!" just does not carry the same emotional quality as, "Kawaiiiiiiii!!!!"

I can understand that having to read subtitles can be distracting, but I've spent many many years watching anime this way and it's completely second nature. So I'll happily wait for the DVD so I can hear the original voice acting.

[Alex]

Oh, I agree and while dubbed animation doesn't bother me as much as live action I prefer subtitled whenever possible. Especially with Japanese because then Lani can point out how the subtitling is not quite getting it correct (though with the Miyazaki films it has usually been a change to make something more comprehensible to non-Japanese audiences since they don't know automatically why Japanese raccoons have giant testicles).

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

It was shown in the US subbed - although on a very limited basis. Call me crazy, but dubbed animation doesn't bother me nearly as much as dubbed live action - probably because the "actors" are really the animators. This is especially true of the Ghibli films in the hands of Lassetter.

Although Billy Crystal did annoy me at first.

It doesn't bother me as much with animation, as well. Somehow the dialogue and animation end up fairly married. Also, a lot of the time, the translation is better in the dubbed versions. The written text is sometimes very, very strange/funny. It's just not translated as well.

Also, it's an English story, and hearing it in the original Japanese may have felt disjointed. Not bad, just strange.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Also, it's an English story, and hearing it in the original Japanese may have felt disjointed. Not bad, just strange.So I presume you turn on the Dutch soundtrack when you watch the Little Mermaid? :p

I too am less thrown off by dubbed animation than live action, but I'll still choose subtitled over dubbed every time.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Also, a lot of the time, the translation is better in the dubbed versions. The written text is sometimes very, very strange/funny. It's just not translated as well.Not counting terrible fan-sub stuff that's only one step above throwing it through Google's translation software (though you get some damned funny lines that way like "fate vibrator" and "Why do you put your shirt in the word bad?"), I find that the ocassional awkward translation adds to the understanding. The preservation of some of the fundamental gramatical and idomatic differences between the languages keeps more of the original spirit, imo. But I suppose that only works if you've watched enough subtitled stuff to build a kind of an idiomatic vocabulary to intuitively decode those differences.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

So I presume you turn on the Dutch soundtrack when you watch the Little Mermaid? :p

I too am less thrown off by dubbed animation than live action, but I'll still choose subtitled over dubbed every time.

Hah. No, but when I watch the anime version of the Little Mermaid, I'm glad it's in English.

Sometimes that crap doesn't bother me at all of course. But it kills me that Hollywood makes movies that take place in French, and for some reason use an all British cast, as if that somehow makes up for the French characters not actually being or speaking French. Totally amuses me.

[innerSpaceman]

Not only doesn't dubbing not bother me as much in animation, Howl's is another work that takes place in Old Europe - where I find the Japanese language to be incredibly distracting.

Not only that, but who's there (besides Lani) to verify that the subtitles are any more a correct translation than the dubbed language???

[Gemini Cricket]

No love for 'Kiki's Delivery Service'?
:D

[Alex]

Some love for it. I prefer Kiki's Delivery Service to My Neighbor Totoro but it is amusing to me (and by amusing I mean slightly annoying) that the two Miyazaki titles I'd put at the bottom of my list are the two most successful in the United States.

[tracilicious]

I already have Totoro on dvd. It's a Fox Films release that I got for $4 at Wal-Mart a few years ago. I love Totoro and Kiki. My favorite so far is Nausicaa. I'm excited for Howl.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Not only that, but who's there (besides Lani) to verify that the subtitles are any more a correct translation than the dubbed language???It's not about the subtitles being more accurate. It's about hearing the original voice acting and the emotional quality that's inherent to the language.

Howl's is another work that takes place in Old Europe - where I find the Japanese language to be incredibly distracting. This happens often in movie making where a film takes place somewhere other than the film maker's place of origin, but the film is in the film maker's language. While an argument can be made (and I might even agree with it) that said practice is kinda lame, once the movie is made, it's my preference to view it (well, hear it) in the language in which it's made. I mean, does the fact that Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, and certain parts of A Tale of Two Cities are all written in English throw you off?

[Gemini Cricket]

Was Miyazaki also 'Princess Mononoke'?

[tracilicious]

I think it was Miyazaki. It was definitely Ghibli.

[Alex]

Yes, Princess Mononoke is Miyazaki.

Since I'm talking anyway, here is my ranking (how quantitative) of the Miyazaki films I've seen, from best to less best:

Porco Rosso
Spirited Away
Howl's Moving Castle
Princess Mononoke
The Castle of Cagliostro
Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds
Laputa: Castle in the Sky
Kiki's Delivery Service
My Neighbor Totoro

[tracilicious]

I loved Porco Rosso too. So funny. I also really loved the movie with the racoons that changed into things. Not sure if it was Ghibli though.

[Alex]

Yeah, it is Ghibli. Pom Poko is from Studio Ghibli's other leader Isao Takahata (and equally deserving of American respect but hasn't quite had it to the degree of Miyazaki).

Pom Poko is a movie that is entertaining for American audiences but you really need a Japanese person by your side explaining the mythology and folklore in the movie. Someone who knows, just upon hearing that it about racoons, that the racoons will be shapeshifters (as well as any foxes that might be in the movie). Lani was invaluable for this; for example, she was able to sing along to the song about their giant golden testicles.

[tracilicious]

They aren't exactly racoons though are they? The testicles were hilarious. I giggled like an elementary school kid through the whole movie.

[Alex]

No, they're not really raccoons, though that is how the movie translates it since the actual animal is unfamiliar to Americans for the most part.

The actual animal is a tanuki, a canine species that looks like a cross between a badger and a raccoon. They really do have large testicles and the anology with raccoons is pretty good because the tanuki have formed a similar tolerance for surviving in human inhabited areas. Here's a picture (of the animal, not the testicals):

http://www1.plala.or.jp/oshima/tanuki.gif

What is funny is that the name of the movie Pom Poko is an onomatopoeia (Japanese is full of them) for the sound of the animals using their testicals (or rotund stomachs in less lowbrow versions) as drums. These are also the statues you see near the door of many Japanese restaurants.

[innerSpaceman]

As drums! What kinky beasts! (where can I find me some?)



GD: As far as original or locale-appropriate languages go ... a few odd points:

1) Shakespeare is ok in English no matter where the "film" takes place, because the film cannot escape its source theatricality and, well, it's Shakespeareian uber-alis that trumps all common sense.

2) Accents do wonders. If a movie takes place in Italy, I am fine with the suspension-of-disbelief method of using an Italian accent to speak in English. It's silly, but it works for me. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think Japanese can be spoken in a foreign accent.

3) Through long cinematic custom, French accents are not necessary ... as British accents have come to be synonymous with French. It's a movie weirdity that I love and gleefullly ascribe to. I'm not aware of a similar convention existing for any other two languages. Certainly not Japanese.


I will watch Howl's in both English and the native Japanese. But I'm willing to bet I'll enjoy the English version better. It doen't hurt that they tend to get real actors to dub the Miyazaki films.

[CoasterMatt]

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/matt.nelson/images/animated2187wn.gif
Did somebody mention raccoons? :)

[Alex]

It's mesmerizing.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm a huge fan of Miyazaki, but 'Howl' kind of left me dry. I watched it the other night. I love love the animation, but the story was dull to me.

Add me to the list of people that liked Porco Rosso.

Here's how I'd rank the films:

The Castle of Cagliostro
Porco Rosso
Spirited Away
Princess Mononoke
Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds
Howl's Moving Castle
My Neighbor Totoro
Laputa: Castle in the Sky
Kiki's Delivery Service


I love the reoccuring themes of metamorphosis (man to dragon, man to flying bird thingy etc), a female main character and how some bad people have it in them to change their ways. Good stuff.
:)

[Gemini Cricket]

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/matt.nelson/images/animated2187wn.gif
Did somebody mention raccoons? :)
OKay, Ralphie thinks that's a wolf. I thought it was a raccoon. He says it makes sense with the whole Red Riding Hood theme...
:confused: :D

[Alex]

No, it is definitely a tanuki (which makes raccoon closer to correct than a wolf).

The images are from a series of commercials for a Japanese construction firm Anabukin. You can see the full commercial here (http://fursuit.timduru.org/dirlist/FursuitVideo/Commercials_Ads/anabukin/ana_cm_d_02.mov) (QuickTime movie). The big bad wolf does make an appearance in the commercial. Now, why do the rabbit, bear, wolf, and buck all have very large breasts? According to Lani, the line in that part of the song in the commercial is about being very proud and the Japanese idiom for being very proud is literally something like "makes your chest big" and they are making a very literal joke out of this.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, I've finally seen Howl's Moving Castle. I was meh about it at first, but it's grown and grown on me.

I've never actually seen it all in one sitting. I've managed to see bits and pieces of the movie over a span of many nights, and I've probably seen the complete film - in differing bits and pieces - a total of six times.


Was it Alex who said it was mesmerizing? I think it is absolutely hynotizing. It puts me out cold, and I can never manage to watch the whole thing. I find this effect very intriguing. I think it puts you into an altered state quite by design.


The story is almost convoluted. I think some of the war stuff is too heavy-handed, and I find Howl's character too simplistic. That said, however, I think the movie is fascinating. It's weird and beautiful and unpredictable.


As I suspected, I prefer the dubbed English on this one. It takes place in a mythical western society where I find the Japanese distracting. I think the English vocal talents are appropriate. Christian Bale is perhaps a little too sexy as Howl, at least as compared with the Japanese version (though perhaps that adolescent boy voice is tres alluring in Nippon). Billy Crystal is a tad "been-there" as the fire demon, but his Japanese counterpart is just nails-on-chalkboard annoying to my Western ears. Jean Simmons is great as old Sophie, with Lauren Bacall perfect as the Witch of the Wastes.


This is the kind of movie that I'd love to watch on acid.






Who's got some?

[Ghoulish Delight]

We saw it a couple weeks ago. Visually...absolutely stunning. Better than Spirited, imo. I was kinda unfulfilled by the story. I mean, I can dig an ambiguous, free-association type story, but it started out pretty linear and concrete and just kinda unraveled at the end. Like I said, unfulfilling.

We checked out the dubbed version aferwards...as I expected, meh. Some were better than others, and while Billy far from sank to "Phil Hartman in Kiki's Delivery Service" lows, he was paled in comparrison to the Japanese voice, but overall I once again confirmed my preference for the original language.

[tracilicious]

We checked out the dubbed version aferwards...as I expected, meh. Some were better than others, and while Billy far from sank to "Phil Hartman in Kiki's Delivery Service" lows, he was paled in comparrison to the Japanese voice, but overall I once again confirmed my preference for the original language.


I LOVED Phil Hartman as Gigi. What is wrong with you people? He was hilarious!

[Not Afraid]

I just love Gigi. Hartman or the original - GIRL - voice....it doesn't seem to matter.

I need to buy Howl's and see it again.

[innerSpaceman]

Heheh, the movie only got interesting to me once it "unraveled." It didn't much interest me as a linear tale, and I'm glad that was only used as a technique to draw you in. From there, it unfolded like a drug trip ... and I guess that's why I'm developing such an affinity for it.

Calsifa's voice bugs me in both English and Japanese, but I preferred all the other English voices to their Nipponese counterparts. Also, I simply can't be drawn as deeply into a story where I must read the dialogue instead of naturally hearing it. It just does not have the same dramatic impact for me. I'm glad that dubbing works for me in animation ... because it's essentially being dubbed no matter what.

(In many of today's live action films, there's so much ADR and looping that they, too, are practically dubbed no matter what. But the created mouth movements of animation are so much more easily matched with a different language, imo.)

[innerSpaceman]

Here's how I'd rank the films:
The Castle of Cagliostro
Porco Rosso
Spirited Away
Princess Mononoke
Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds
Howl's Moving Castle
My Neighbor Totoro
Laputa: Castle in the Sky
Kiki's Delivery Service

Ok, based on Gemini's recommendations, and my own growing interest, I've Netlixed everything on that list I haven't already seen (which is all but 4 of them).



Must.obtain.psychedelic.drugs.before.mail.arrives. :p

[innerSpaceman]

And for my third post in a row in a thread that no one's reading anyway, I will reveal that I just noticed Alex's review of "mesmerizing" was in reference to gigantoid racoon testicles and not Howl's Moving Castle.

:iSm:

[Ghoulish Delight]

(In many of today's live action films, there's so much ADR and looping that they, too, are practically dubbed no matter what. But the created mouth movements of animation are so much more easily matched with a different language, imo.)This is true, but to my ear it still suffers from the same thing that any dub into a different language suffers from. Namely, no matter how good the translation, there is a time factor. It simply does not take the same amount of time to say the same things in English as it does in Japanese. That severly limits the choice of translation and/or forces the voice actor to artificially speed up or slow down their lines. All very jaring to me.


It takes place in a mythical western society where I find the Japanese distracting.I'd like to read the source material (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006441034X/103-3640282-3018241?v=glance&n=283155) to see how closely the movie follows it, because many of the main themes were distinctly Japanese. For instance, in most western stories (take Harry Potter for example), those with magical powers are either greatly revered or greatly feared by those without (assuming those that do haven't taken great pains to hide the fact entirely), while it's not uncommon in Japanese stories for the two to coexist in a rather nonchalant relationship, as was shown in Howl's. I'm curious as to whether it was like this in the original book. If it is, I think it might explain why Murukami was drawn to this story as his choice for a western-originating book.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, thanks for that handy link. I think I actually will read the book, since you made it so easy for me to order - - and since Ms. 1812 recommended the literary storyline as her preference (where in heck has she been anyway? I miss her, sniffle, sniff).


I hope the book is translated, because I won't be able to read the original Japanese.

[Gemini Cricket]

Well, now I'm nervous. iSm may hate 'Castle of Cagliostro'. I may be berated and abused by him for liking it. It could be as bad as the 'The Notebook' review fracas. :D
And for my third post in a row in a thread that no one's reading anyway...
I totally read all of your posts. Like your second one about the thing and the stuff. Brilliant.
:D

[innerSpaceman]

I have one DVD player that won't turn the subtitles off, so I watched Howl's in English with the subtitles ... and it turns out either the English translation is waaaaay off or the subtitles aren't even accurate to the Japanese.

Unless it was an important plot point, not one single line of the English dialogue was the same as the subtitles. As an example, where a subtitle might read, "Sophie, don't stay here by yourself" ... the spoken English would be, "Sophie, come out and have a good time with us."

It was bizarre.

I'd like to put the subtitles to the "Lani" test of Japanese accuracy. Understandably, much of the English script was modified from the original so that the mouth movements would match. But the subtitles generally had a more stilted, less expressive form of English ... and I'm wondering what the Japanese dialogue really is.

[innerSpaceman]

It could be as bad as the 'The Notebook' review fracas.
And don't forget our meeting of the minds on 'Rent', heheh.;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Unless it was an important plot point, not one single line of the English dialogue was the same as the subtitles. As an example, where a subtitle might read, "Sophie, don't stay here by yourself" ... the spoken English would be, "Sophie, come out and have a good time with us."
That's exactly the phenomenon I was talking about earlier. Because subtitles aren't limited to having to match in timing and rhythm to the animation, they can be more accurate with the translation. While the dubbing has to be significantly altered to synch up as closely as possible with the animation.

[Alex]

The subtitles are translation of the Japanese. The English dub is the change in language necessary to match mouth movements and create subtle changes in story that make comprehension easier for non-Japanese people (a Japanese idiom, for example, will probably be literally translated in the subtitles while converted to an English equivelant for the dub).

[Gemini Cricket]

Wasn't it in the 'Spirited Away' English dub version where they replaced a line from the witch with "Paper cut." but what she actually said in Japanese was different?

[innerSpaceman]

Sorry, GD, but that's another reason I like the English better. With no offense to the Japanese (going on Alex's assertion that the subtitles are accurate), the "original" language has a sort of See Dick Run quality of unexpressiveness that I find, well, boring.

I'm really glad I had my subtitle "malfuction" - because I frankly find the English translation to be better and more entertaining.

And without any offense meant to whoever does casting for Studio Ghibli, I have my suspicions that the top-name American actors are actually giving better peformances than the original cast.

(Though Pete Doctor admitted in one of the bonus features that the Howl character was sexed up a bit because it was felt the effiminate/androgenous character of the Japanese version would not translate well to American audiences.)

[Not Afraid]

The subtitles are translation of the Japanese. The English dub is the change in language necessary to match mouth movements and create subtle changes in story that make comprehension easier for non-Japanese people (a Japanese idiom, for example, will probably be literally translated in the subtitles while converted to an English equivelant for the dub).

Yeah, Japanese idioms don't translate well directly into English. Or the other way around for that matter.

[innerSpaceman]

Wasn't it in the 'Spirited Away' English dub version where they replaced a line from the witch with "Paper cut." but what she actually said in Japanese was different?
I'm not sure about the translation differences in Spirited Away, but Anne Bancroft did confirm that she chose to play the bathouse "witch" completey differently, almost polar oppositely, from the Japanese actress's interpretation. This kinda bugged me, but I found both performances to be wonderful.

Heheh, I think I'll watch Spirited Away in English with the subtitles on to discover all the fun translation changes!

[Gemini Cricket]

I miss Anne Bancroft. :(

[Alex]

The subtitles still aren't 100% accurate translations but they are mostly very close and certainly much closer than the English dubs. When we saw Spirited Away in the theater it was with subtitles and there were a few parts of that where Lani leaned over and whispered that the subtitles were way off from the spoken word.

Mostly in areas that were so steeped in assumed understanding of Japanese folklore that it just would make no sense at all to someone who wasn't. There is a lot in Spirited Away that just goes right over an American's head.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Sorry, GD, but that's another reason I like the English better. With no offense to the Japanese (going on Alex's assertion that the subtitles are accurate), the "original" language has a sort of See Dick Run quality of unexpressiveness that I find, well, boring.Which I can totally dig. For me, having spent years watching subbed anime, it's almost like learning a new language. You start to learn idiomatic Japanese in its near-literal English translated form and eventually learn a whole new form of expressiveness. Believe me, it took me a long time, but now that I'm fairly fluent in subtitle, it lends a depth and insight that the Americanization can't quite capture. There simply IS no accurate analog translation of the cultural significance of concepts like "Kawaiiii!" (to use the simplest of examples).

[Gemini Cricket]

There is a lot in Spirited Away that just goes right over an American's head.
It might not if you're a Japanese American.

[Alex]

And it might not as well if you're an American who was raised by the ambassador to Japan who felt it was important to expose his children to local cultures and therefore had you go to Japanese public schools rather than the American School in Japan (real place and Lani's Japanese alma mater). Or if you are a masters student in cultural anthropology with a focus on Japanese folklore.

It was a (accurate) generalization and there are obvious exceptions. Shall we list them all?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Watching Howl with his rightly youthful Japanese voice took my breath away. I fell head over heels for him. When we switched over to dubbed I thought Christian Bale's husky voice being used for the lithe and youthful Howl was ridiculous. Totally took me out of the movie.

Billy Crystal is Billy Crystal, not a pesky fire character. Again, there's no way I could have watched it that way. The Japanese voice was wonderfully, well, Japanese.

I'm still miffed that we had to watch Kiki's with dubbing. CERTAIN people overrode us on that one. ;) Phil Hartman's worst hour, and I definitely count myself a fan of his.

If I want to try another culture's food, I don't smother it in Cheez Whiz. If I want to try another culture's art, I want it sans Americanization.

As for the movie itself - a beautiful thing to behold, but in the end the story was too disjointed for my taste. The author is a well-published children's fantasy novelist, but I haven't read anything by her. I think I may hunt down a copy.

[Alex]

I know the point you're trying to make GC, but since the obvious exceptions don't actually weaken the point being made in my generalization (as they do in your generalization) I don't really think it is the same thing.

[Gemini Cricket]

I know the point you're trying to make GC, but since the obvious exceptions don't actually weaken the point being made in my generalization (as they do in your generalization) I don't really think it is the same thing.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Huh? I meant that Lani is a Japanese American and that she would catch such references... Referring to the first part of your post. But since I didn't quote that then I guess I was once again being unclear???
Do I have to qualify each and every post of mine? If so, I need to dust off my Stoup to English dictionary because I haven't used it since MP.
:D

[Alex]

If I was wrong in my assumption then I apologize. I don't think I was but so be it.

But my initial response that there are all kinds of rare exceptions to the generalization stands. Do we need to list them all?

[Gemini Cricket]

If I was wrong in my assumption then I apologize. I don't think I was but so be it.

But my initial response that there are all kinds of rare exceptions to the generalization stands. Do we need to list them all?
I accept your apology if that's what it was.

We could list them all, I suppose. If that's what you want.

:confused:

[innerSpaceman]

I don't want the list of exceptions, but I DO want Lani's (or Alex's) list of over-your-stupid-American-heads mythic Japanese folklore items ... so's I can enjoy Spirited Away even more than I already do.

[Alex]

Well, I don't know that I will ever again be able to distract her from World of Warcraft long enough to actually watch an entire movie.

But she did address some of the untranslated (though not so much the differently translated) elements of the movie in our review of the DVD (http://www.mouseplanet.com/articles.php?art=ht030513as).

The relevant paragraphs:


One notable disadvantage for American audiences is that the characters' Japanese names all reflect their personalities in one way or another. The "No Face" spirit is the only one whose Japanese name is translated into English, and it is a good example of how the name should indicate what that character is. To lose one's name or one's identity is to lose one's face to the world. And this is illustrated by No Face, who has no name or identity, and is lost without the acceptance of others.

"Kamaji," for example, literally means "old man of the furnace," while "Haku" means "white" and "Boh" means "young boy."

One rather significant explanation lost in the translation is what happens to Chihiro when Yubaba steals her name. In the name-stealing scene, Chihiro spells out "Ogino Chihiro," her surname and given name, in Japanese kanji characters. The kanji for "Chihiro" uses two characters meaning "a thousand fathoms" — indicating her tremendous depth of character. When Yubaba robs the second part of her name ("fathoms"), all Chihiro is left with is the character for "thousand": She has been converted from one of depth, to one that is scattered and confused, amid a swirl of a thousand broken pieces.

Finally, it was almost impossible for the translators to sufficiently explain the critical importance of the seal, and the significance of its theft. In traditional Japanese society (and even today to a certain extent), contracts and letters were never signed with a signature, but with a family's official seal. To steal another person's seal was to steal his very identity, not at all unlike modern-day identity theft where a hacker opens credit cards in a victim's name. Official seals were etched out by master carvers, and the little nicks and strokes were scrutinized just as fingerprints are today whenever there was a dispute as to the legitimacy of a contract authorized by the stamp of a seal. The translators instead did what they could, to refer to the seal as a "golden seal," thereby giving it the value of a family heirloom treasure.

[Not Afraid]

I watch animated films as much for the visual art as I do for the story. I like to see the dubbed version at least the first time soI can concentrate on the beautiful art of Ghibli rather than on reading subtitles. On a second viewing, I like to watch the subtitled.

For non-animated films, I only watch subtitled versions. But, I usually have to see the greatly visuals films a couple of times to fully appreciate the film as a whole.

[innerSpaceman]

Heheh, I find it amusing that I am oooh-ahhed at the wonderment of character clues in the names of Ghibli creations ... and yet I moan in horror when I find such simplistic claptrap in Harry Potter or Star Wars.

I think it's not simply my cultural reverance for Nipponese, but rather the obviously crafty way it's done in the fine example quoted above from Lani's review of Spirited Away vs. the hammer-headed, retarded-child way it's done by the likes of J.K. Rowling and George Lucas.







* - my praise is for the Thousand Fathoms example only. The other two are just as lametard as the Brit and American style of revelatory names.

[Alex]

I also think it is different in Japanese where the underlying meaning of a name is readily apparent to any literate person.

In English, "Alexander" means "defending men" only because there are scholars of dead languages to tell me so. Whereas in Japanese, Lani is reminded that "Akiko" (her first name) means "autumn child" every time she sees it written. Descriptive names are standard in Japanese whereas in the U.S. they are more a sign of hippie parents (we'd think nothing of it if you had a name that meant rainbow in 4th century Gaelic but actually naming a kid Rainbow is something different) and as with astrology finding meaning in things in Western culture I think the Japanese folklore assumption that your name has power to shape who you become is much stronger.

I wonder if a Japanese person find it lame when reading a translatin of Gibson and says "can you believe he named the main character Hiro Protagonist?"

[innerSpaceman]

I thought Christian Bale's husky voice being used for the lithe and youthful Howl was ridiculous.
I had the same reaction. But I wonder if it was because we heard the Japanese characterization first. I imagine we might have just accepted husky Howl if that's how we'd first been introduced to him.

[innerSpaceman]

Hooray. I received the book from Amazon today, and I can't wait to find out whether Howl is really an effeminate, adolescent Nipponese boy or a husky-voiced, sexified American mangod.


(Oh, and I screened the film for zapppop over the weekend and he seemed to like it.)

[wendybeth]

I had the same reaction. But I wonder if it was because we heard the Japanese characterization first. I imagine we might have just accepted husky Howl if that's how we'd first been introduced to him.

We just got the film, and I like the contrast between the lithe, effeminate image and the husky voice. If he'd had a higher voice he'd not been as sympathetic to me. (I did not see the Japanese version). I think Asian audiences like characters like Howl- I notice in almost all the anime I've seen that the male hero (and sometimes the villian as well) has that same sort of look. Heck, Bao Joon has it as well in real life and he's doing quite well.

Loved the movie, btw. NOt as much as Spirited Away, but close.

[Not Afraid]

Heck, Bao Joon has it as well in real life and he's doing quite well.



Astute observation there WB!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I think Asian audiences like characters like Howl- I notice in almost all the anime I've seen that the male hero (and sometimes the villian as well) has that same sort of look. Definitely. That's part of what I love about anime. I wouldn't usually consider the androgenous type my thing, but in this genre I adore the guys.
I had the same reaction. But I wonder if it was because we heard the Japanese characterization first. I imagine we might have just accepted husky Howl if that's how we'd first been introduced to him.I'd have to say no way to that one. Do you think this guy is supposed to sound like Batman?
http://www.tribute.ca/tribute_objects/images/movies/howl's_moving_castle/howlsmovingcastle1.jpg
His real voice has a sexy allure all its own, and like I said, I totally fell for him.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, having finished the novel ... I can state categorically ... that both batman and johnny soko are right for the character Howl.

Howl is a ladies' man, a lothario, a love-'em-and-leave-'em heartbreaker, and a sexified con man. If sexy means androgenous boy to the Japanese (and to Cadaverous Pallor), then that's what's required for the Nipponese version of Howl. But that would simply NOT work for American audiences, and so I believe the husky batman voice was appropriate for the dubbing.


Now that I've read the book, I have 10 times more admiration for the Ghibli movie ... which invented practically everything other than the basic characters, their basic situation, and a few of the events that take place inside the Castle.

The Ghibli version invents the war scenario ... which I found so hamfisted. But that's comfortably grounded compared to the Ugh factor of the novel when ....
Sophie finds one of the Castle's rotating portals leads to modern-day Wales, where she discovers that Howl is a 20th-century Welshman who grew up among the reader's own society ... in one of the most painfully embarrasing scenes to read. Ugh.

Wow, Ghibli invented practically everything for their version of the story, including ...
The Witch of the Waste being turned old and benevolent by the King's sorceress Suliman and then hanging out at Howl's Castle for the rest of the story; Sophie switching back and forth between her young and old selves in a series of clues about the uniquely movie-version nature of the spell; the entire age-of-steam backdrop for society; the entire war (which was suggested by one line in the book); the giant bird-thing alter-ego of Howl; the blob creatures of Sulimon and Witch of the Waste (also merely suggested by a minor event in the book); the dog Hine (based ever so loosely on a character in the book); the secret identity of the Scarecrow (who is NOT Sophie's friend in the book, and turns out to be not the Prince, but Wizard Suliman - who is a man in the book and has nothing to do with Sophie's visit to the palace, where she actually meets with the King himself); the very nature of the moving castle (simply a floating illusion of a featureless, black castle in the book); Sophie's trip to Howl's past to discover his I-Heart-Calcifer meeting; and Sophie and Howl's entire relationship (though they end up together on the final page, they are antagonistic to each other throughout the story.) Oh, and in the book - a lot more people are witches ... including Sophie herself!

So much more is either different in the movie or entirely made up that I'd hesitate to say the film was based on the book AT ALL. They kept the title, a few things that happen, and the names of most of the characters. That's it.

They didn't even keep all of the characters' names: Heheh, Howl's apprentice is 15-year-old Michael in the book vs. the 8 or 9 year-old "Markl" in the movie. I give the movie uber props just for inventing the name "Markl" !!

But, overwhelmingly, I prefer the movie version of the story. Not since Disney adapted Pinocchio has an unwieldy piece of children's literature been so vastly and (imo) successfully molded into an animated film.

[Nephythys]

*skipping over the the library web site to put Howl on my request list*

Dying of curiousity as to why that part was embarrassing?

Oh- got Spirited Away from Netflix....LOVED it!

Next on the list- Nausica.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, the whole concept was embarassing ...
As if it weren't bad enough that Howl turns out to be a 20th Century Welshman, we have the indignity of Sophie being sickened by the mysterious conveyance ride in an automobile, and gaping at the wizardry of the magic boxes that kids play video games on. Gak. It totally took me out of the story to even know that our world existed within the fairy tale fabric of the novel's events, much less have our heroine bedazzled by our tech gizmos and our titular hero be a mere human from our own mundane world. Bah.
I thought the war stuff invented by Ghibli was GAY, but the novel's unfortunate twist was downright QUEER.

[Nephythys]

Well, the whole concept was embarassing ...
As if it weren't bad enough that Howl turns out to be a 20th Century Welshman, we have the indignity of Sophie being sickened by the mysterious conveyance ride in an automobile, and gaping at the wizardry of the magic boxes that kids play video games on. Gak. It totally took me out of the story to even know that our world existed within the fairy tale fabric of the novel's events, much less have our heroine bedazzled by our tech gizmos and our titular hero be a mere human from our own mundane world. Bah.
I thought the war stuff invented by Ghibli was GAY, but the novel's unfortunate twist was downright QUEER.


I see what you mean- that does detract from the wonder of it all. I'll still read it though.

I love the worlds these movies take me to- they are amazing.

[innerSpaceman]

I love the movie so much more after having read the book that - even though I've had my Netflix copy out for like 10 days now - I'm gonna go ahead and buy it.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Man, I liked the movie. Read the book and I much prefer the novel. Saw the movie again, and it could barely keep my interest, the animation and the characters of Howl and Sophie aside. The contemporary element in the novel was abrupt, but it certainly didn't bother me as much as it did you, and I still prefer it.

Watched Whispers of the Heart for the first time. Now THAT is a Ghibli movie that recieves my full support. The story, animation, characters, little asides...it was just a perfect movie in every way. I fell madly in love with it.

The second time I watched Howl, I found myself wanting to fast forward some parts. Ah, well. To each her own.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Now that I've read the book, I have 10 times more admiration for the Ghibli movie ... which invented practically everything other than the basic characters, their basic situation, and a few of the events that take place inside the Castle.So I presume then that you'll be watching it from now on in the proper Japanese, as obviously the real meat of the story is Japanese in origin? :p

[innerSpaceman]

Well, they changed so much that ... had they desired, they would not have hesitated an instant to change the story's locale to Japan. As they did not ... I will watch it in the proper King's English.