The Art of Moving On

[Gemini Cricket]

I need some advice.

I am a gay activist. To be more specific, I am a gay activist who is formerly Catholic. It is no secret that I am struggling with both aspects of my life. I've been struggling a lot. I don't consider myself Catholic but often I think like one. Sometimes I don't want to be gay, but I don't have a choice in the matter. So is life. It's hard.

A psychic (I don't know where I stand on that subject, I'll leave that for another thread) once told me that I have been on this planet for many lives. I'm an old soul that's sorting out being several people in the past. I've always loved that description of myself because sometimes it makes perfect sense to my imagination. Often, I do feel like I have my share of sorting to do. I'm 35 and I don't know who I am or what I want to do when I grow up.

Recently, I feel like I have come to a place where I want to put some calm into my torrential head and soul. I want to get to a place where I come to peace with my Catholic side and my Catholic upbringing and I want to accept myself completely as a gay man. But the Catholic Church infuriates me. So does the gay community.

The Catholic Church in Boston just halted all of their adoption services because they said the state was forcing them to place children with same-sex couples which is against their doctrine. Now these orphan children have been abandoned by the Church. (Welcome to the club, Kids!) Once again, my sexuality is being paraded around by the Church as being immoral and depraved. Nice. But if I say something, the response is 'We're just expressing our religious freedoms, don't pick on us. We're innocent.'

One side of me was once really in love with the Church. As a kid, I loved hearing the stories, I marvelled at church architecture, enjoyed Xmas midnight mass and always pictured Jesus as the ultimate rebel. I loved a lot of the priests and nuns who taught me. BUT there's this dark side of me that says, why should I respect the Catholic Church at all? Your anti-gay actions are based on folklore and fairytales. You're all a bunch of hypocritical pedophiles who are telling me I'm going to hell. You're a bunch of closeted gays who are telling me being myself is wrong.

AND

Millions of dollars are being thrown at gay organizations around the country. Great. But what exactly are they doing for me? For Ralphie? From where I sit, it doesn't seem like a hell of a whole lot. But we should donate to them. Hmm, really? Brandon Teena's killer, who is serving a life sentence in prison, is getting married in jail to his girlfriend. He's going to receive a federally recognized union. This murderer who took away Teena's life. Teena, who couldn't have gotten married to his girlfriend he loved because he was born a girl. Does this make any sense to anyone? But no one in the leadership of gay rights organizations are saying a damn thing about it.

So...

How does one move on? How does one come to peace with a community that is hurtful? How does one come to peace with himself?

These are good questions that I don't have the answers to.

[tracilicious]

I You're all a bunch of hypocritical pedophiles who are telling me I'm going to hell. You're a bunch of closeted gays who are telling me being myself is wrong.


I don't think pedophile = closeted gay.

I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you. I can sympathize though. At least you've found a good partner and good friends. Maybe you can ignore the rest for a bit?

[Gemini Cricket]

I don't think pedophile = closeted gay.
I don't either. I see how it reads that way in my post though.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't consider myself Catholic ... Sometimes I don't want to be gay...Well, at least you can choose not to be Catholic! One out of two ain't bad, and it's the only one you're going to get. I, too, have my bouts of not wanting to be gay ... as, I suspect, do 90% of gay men. Nothing wrong with that feeling - - as long as you fairly quickly move on.

Since that's the title of this thread, I suppose it's harder done than said.

But moving on from most stuff is just like moving on from the feeling of not wanting to be gay. There's zero choice, and so you move on from necessity. You simpy have to come to the point where you are certain about things ... just as certain as you are that you're gay. Certain doesn't mean final. It's probably easier to come to a decision of certitude if you don't feel it has to be your final thought on the matter.

So don't make things final in your mind, just make them certain. That will assist you in moving on (and you'll always have the option to move on right back to a former position, if you later choose).

the Catholic Church infuriates me. So does the gay community.
You can still love Christmas and Cathedral Architecture and the loving goodness of many pastor folk. You don't have to accept the bigoted, hateful, neanderthal officialdom of the Catholic religion or any other. You do not need to be affiliated to appreciate the good aspects of any religion, or to appreciate the loving wonderfulness of Jesus Christ.

Fu ck the Catho lic Church! Innocent??? Since when? I can see railing against the Church being somewhat of a problem in the Boston area, but don't tell me there's a groundswell of support for leaving orphan children in the lurch.



As for gay activism ... well, I don't really see where it is that you and Ralphie are going to be receiving largess from the gay community. Were you expecting some kind of grant, perhaps?

I think most gay activism money is going towards teens. Have you noticed how relatively easy it is to be a gay teenager in America in the 21st century? It's awesome! I believe big dollars still go to AIDS causes. I guess if you're not an HIV-positive 16-year-old, you're sorta outta luck.

But if this or that gay organization is not pleasing you with their activities, don't be so alarmed. There is NO "gay community." It's too vast and varied a population ... with little in common 'cept for that man-lovin' stuff.



Just be YOU, Brad. Be the kind of christian you want to be. Be the kind of gay man you want to be. Be the kind of American you want to be, and be the kind of earthling you already are.

Conflicted as you may be at times inside your head (and who of us isn't?), you've demonstrated time and again that you're a good soul, a kind person, a smart man, a warm human ... with a progressive spirit and good intentions for all Catholics and Jews and Muslims and Athiests, all gays and all straights, all children, all dolphins, all trees and all people.



So move on in the direction of Brad, and all will surely be good.

And if you want the gay community to throw money at you .... well, you're in Boston - - - marry Ralphie already and wedding presents will follow.

[mousepod]

Y'know, I have to admit that, as a Jew, I've always found myself identifying with Catholic guilt - so I can appreciate where you're coming from. My own religious self-identification has been very fluid through the years. My Dad's father was a Conservative (leaning toward Orthodox) cantor, and my Mom was a card-carrying atheist in high school, so I was brought up with the culture attached to my Jewishness while being given the freedom to explore my own understanding of Judaism. I found that there are things that I both appreciate and despise about the religion, and I'm fascinated mostly with Reconstructionist Judaism, though I'm not at all observant. I also dug Allen Ginsberg contention that all Jews were basically Buddhist.

I guess what intrigues me about your predicament is that you seem like you want to reconcile your self with someone else's dogmatic beliefs. Martin Luther had a rough time with the Catholic Church too, IIRC.

My advice to you would be to take a good look at yourself and figure out what you really believe in. If there are others who share your beliefs, great - then you have a support group (or church, if you will). If not, start your own. Just remember, be flexible and don't force yourself into your own (or anyone else's) dogma. As you get older and wiser, your view on the Universe is bound to change - and you should never beat yourself up for growing.

My prayers (as it were) are with you.

[Not Afraid]

As I've gotten older, I've found myself coming to a state of acceptance of things I don't like in this world. Not necessarily accepting that they are OK, accepting that there will be differences in belief systems all over the world and that is ok. My own beliefs are what is important to me and those are what I concentrate on. I also have learned to take what I like from religions and belief systems and discard what doesn't fit for me. I know that people like to throw around generalities about "Christians don't do this....." or other such nonsense, but for me, that isn't really important. What is important is "What Lisa won't or will do". It really is about self and what you are comfortable with. The BIG DOGMAS of the world may be comforting for some, but I find them too restricting so I utilize what I want and toss the rest.

I'm not sure if that works for all, but it seems to work for me at this point in my life. At least it provides me with some semblence of peace - and I like that.

[Gemini Cricket]

Steve~

I like the distinction you made between being certain and final on something. I have never thought about it in that way before.

There's this stubborn part of me that is black and white about things. I guess that's one thing I need to get over. For instance, Ralphie and I love love love the artist Michaelangelo. Ralphie said to me the other day that he'd love to see the Sistine Chapel to see the ceiling someday. My initial reaction was, 'Ugh. I'd never, ever want to go there. Much less, pay to go... supporting Catholic Church... blah blah...' But then I thought about it later. Why not go? I'd be going as an art lover...

No, not a grant. I meant it more like I'd love to see more results from these organizations. They say this and that, but where's the beef? Sometimes I wonder where it's all going... Not to mention that they seem to try and play this fence balancing thing where they will not be labelled as extreme at the cost of actual results...

Thank you for the nice things you said. I appreciate it. And for the record, I hate dolphins. They get all the research grant money because they're cute. Squids, sea squirts and tubeworms get shafted because they're gross. :D

-------------------

mousepod ~

It does feel like I'm trying to fit into someone's dogmatic mold for me. I think I have to remind myself that it won't work. It's hard.

I have thought about Buddhism from time to time.

While doing research for three characters I played on stage who were Jewish, I thought a lot about Reform Judaism. I even told my mom once that I was going to convert just to give her a heartattack. It almost worked.
:D





I knew there was a reason I asked for advice at the LoT. So many cool, smart people here...
:)

[Isaac]

I don't really have much to add to what everyone else said.

So here's a picture to help cheer you up:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/reptilia/image001.gif

[Gemini Cricket]

It really is about self and what you are comfortable with. ...
At least it provides me with some semblence of peace - and I like that.
Inner peace. That's the goal for me.

Thank you, Lisa.
:)

[Gemini Cricket]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v41/reptilia/image001.gif
Absolutely freakin' hysterical.
lol! :D

[innerSpaceman]

um, I think I've changed my mind. Howzabout I marry Ralphie, and you take the wierdo who posts bizarro visuals that refuse to leave the brain unmolested?

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, and I was really serious, in my own twisted way, about the HIV+ teenager. I think gay teens and gay AIDs victims are seeing plenty of beef. Er, I mean, the "beef" you mentioned in terms of money from gay organizations.


And squids are not just less cute than dolphins; they're less smart. Dolphins get money and attention because they are the other brilliant, fully conscious species on our little planet. Most of them are smarter than most of us.

And few of the boy dolphins have any hang ups about being outrageously homosexual. No conflicts there at all. And no Catholic Church Under the Sea.

[Gemini Cricket]

um, I think I've changed my mind. Howzabout I marry Ralphie, and you take the wierdo who posts bizarro visuals that refuse to leave the brain unmolested?

I like your wierdo. He reminds me constantly not to take this world too seriously. I wish I'd listen. ;)

As for marrying Ralphie... Well, the topic has come up. :)

No, I think you're totally right about gay teens and HIV+/AIDS victims.



Dolphins are the whores of the undersea world.
:D

[wendybeth]

I can certainly relate to you on the Catholic church issue, GC- I have resolved it to my satisfaction by going back and studying the history of the church, from inception to current times. So much dogma is man-made, politically and socially motivated and (I think) strays far from the original church. Obviously, that puts me outside of it, but I still believe in the basic tenets. So many reformed churches began by throwing out the aforementioned crap, but they all seem to have degenerated down the same path as Catholicism. Probably just human nature, but I can't be a part of something that conflicts with my beliefs. So, I just follow my own path and hope I am doing right.

I have lots to say on the gay issue, but am running late. I have to (finally) take my car in to get fixed. I'll bet if I were gay my girlfriend would have my car fixed by now. :rolleyes:

[€uroMeinke]

The world is full of contradictions and sometime I think we drive ourselves mad trying to find a consitent path through it all. "Moving on" for me is accepting the contradictions, that your support for one thing or issue needn't carry with it a whole host of attachted beliefs and condemnations. We're just to complex to be treated that simply - but we do it all the time.

Any group writ big like "Catholics" will have problems as well as benefits. Their current dogma may rub you the wrong way, but you recognize it's influence on your heritage and know some great people involved in the church - why should you exclude them? If anything, I think keeping the relationships and all their tensions and contradictions going is that irritation that ultimately results in great changes - though maybe not in our lifetime.

But it's your lifetime that you'll be experienceing so, to some extent you may have to bakc off the larger "casues" and focus on what it is that makes you happy - and be unashamed in pursuing it - be that gay sex or Christmas Mass. Becasue while those two things might appear contradictory to the current touted dogma of the day, they live fine side by side within you and it needn't be your job to resolve it.

[Gemini Cricket]

wendybeth ~ I hear you. I'm looking for my path. It's there, I just can't see it yet. :)


€uroMeinke ~ Sometimes, I have a hard time distinguishing someone from their religion. I am quite confused when someone says they are Catholic and then say they support gay marriage causes. I want to ask them how they can be both. Because supporting gay marriage and gay causes puts you at complete odds with the Church. I get confused about that. But I'm thinking it's that grey area that I'm not grasping.

What causes turmoil in me is that I feel like I have an inherent belief on what is right and what is wrong. I am certain the Church is wrong about gays and it is not like me to sit by when I witness something that is unjust. It eats away at the core of who I am to do so. Yes, I can tell myself to focus on what makes me happy, but I know lingering injustice makes me unhappy. The knowing that I can't do much about it depresses me. Letting it go doesn't make it stop. I don't know...

[€uroMeinke]

What causes turmoil in me is that I feel like I have an inherent belief on what is right and what is wrong. I am certain the Church is wrong about gays and it is not like me to sit by when I witness something that is unjust. It eats away at the core of who I am to do so. Yes, I can tell myself to focus on what makes me happy, but I know lingering injustice makes me unhappy. The knowing that I can't do much about it depresses me. Letting it go doesn't make it stop. I don't know...

I think it's more about recognizing what you have contol over. Some things are just beyond your control and you're better off accepting that. Perhaps, it's just the realization that thee way you might make the greatest difference is by using your influence in other ways - leading by example perhaps?

Also the world is full of stimuli - you needn't react to all of it - in fact that's quite impossible. Sometimes we also use the "there is so much wrong with the world" excuse to avoid looking the problems within our own personal lives. It might help to spend some contemplative time on how these larger issues impact you personally, and address solutions on a more personal level - i.e. what you can do to change or live with them. That could mean leaving the church - or becoming more a a thorn in the church's side becasue you refuse to leave it.

In either case, I think it needs to be a personal decission, focus on what exactly you have control over and how it makes you feel. This is a place where I think selfishness is a must.

[€uroMeinke]

PS - I'm looking forward to some great dinner conversations when we're in Boston next month ;)

[Tramspotter]

I am not particularly religious lately but was at times.

But seeing as how you should have a relationship with god first and not the church It would seem to me that although it's the hardest thing to pray for perhaps something for yourself...

Very hard to do but perhaps you might
Pray for your own inner peace in your own way disregarding all else.
Then don't forget to listen for an answer...

If honestly looking for answers whether it comes from yourself or God. Believe an answer will be waiting for you. Just don't forget to listen for the answer...

I deflated my ego and asked.

I found the answer I think at least for me and it came in a childs eyes.
(At disneyland no less)

I set a goal to have kids before I am 35.

Good luck. :)

[innerSpaceman]

PS - I'm looking forward to some great dinner conversations when we're in Boston next month

I only wish a few more of the facetime conversations were as insightful and compassionate as the conversations typical of the LoT. Fun and freewheelingness in person seems to take a toll on talk.



We need more salons.






that thee way you might make the greatest differenceI read that as three way.
:eek:

[tracilicious]

And squids are not just less cute than dolphins; they're less smart. Dolphins get money and attention because they are the other brilliant, fully conscious species on our little planet. Most of them are smarter than most of us.


...we thought that you were pretty cute
especially tiny tots and your pregnant women!
So long so long and thanks!
for all the fish!

[wendybeth]

GC- I think that people who still attend the church yet hold opinions that conflict with the church's stance on things are able to do so because they simply don't believe everything the church has taught them. They are able to operate in that 'grey area' you spoke of, and have figured out a way to reconcile the conflicting beliefs- namely, 'don't ask, don't tell'. They attend mass, do all the things that good Catholics do and keep their personal opinions to themselves. John Kerry, the Kennedys, etc, are all examples that we know of because their politics have required that they publically address these issues. They hem and haw and do the usual double-speak when asked about such things as abortion, divorce and that, yet they remain standing members of the church, so far as I know anyway. I think only minor players like us get kicked out.

You're a good person, GC- and an honest one. That's why this is hard for you. You are not a liar, and you won't be a hypocrite. So, start your own religion! I'll join.:D

[Ghoulish Delight]

They hem and haw and do the usual double-speak when asked about such things as abortion, divorce and that, yet they remain standing members of the church, so far as I know anyway. I think only minor players like us get kicked out.They could also be lucky enough to have found congregations that recognizes that "ideal" and "reality" are two different things and understand that what's important is to provide somewhere for individuals to foster their own relationship with God and the dogmatic stuff is secondary to that.

I've tried about 4 times to compose a response to this, and nothing's come out with quite the message I want.

My personal view is, we can't all be activists. Just as I know I could never be a surgeon because I doubt vomiting into my patients' open incisions will do much to improve their health, I know I could never join any sort of large idealistic cause because the stressful state it would leave me in would make me no good to anyone. I simply don't possess the ability to detatch to my day to day and commit all of my emotional energy towards something that large. A lot of people do, and God bless them. I'll leave that to those that are built for it.

So, like Chris, my focus is on figuring out what I can effect on a small scale. Lead by example, be a positive force in the lives of those around you. That's needed just as much as lobbyists and protestors.

I see no contradiction in having a moral stance against something while being able to "get over it and move on" should someone I know make a decission I consider "wrong". Of course, what "getting over it and moving on" entails is a sliding scale depending on the person and the decission. For someone I'm very close to, it would mean forgiving them and doing what I can to make sure from that point on, things are good. For someone I'm not so close to, it may mean I need to reevaluate how much contact I have with them. And the former can easily become the latter should their "wrong" decissions pile up.

In the end, it's an equation of positivity for me. As long as someone else's decissions don't force me to exceed a certain internally obvious threshold of ease in maintaining positive interactions with them, my focus is on positivity for the future, not judgement of the past. I try to do my best to not make things worse for myself, my friends, and my family. I will certainly not hesitate to let someone close to me know my opinions before they make a "wrong" decission (and maybe a little bit after...a little guilt never hurt anyone), but once they've made the decission for themself, I look to the future, helping them make the best of where they are, or removing myself from the situation.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Hi, GC. I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated.

I can commiserate with your anger at the Catholic church. I grew up Catholic as well. I always appreciated the whole JC take on how to treat people. And the older I've gotten, the more I've thought that the Catholic church really pulled away from that. So I've pulled away from it.

So I've chosen to live my life more about that basic theory-- love your neighbor-- than any specific preceipts.

Do I tell my parents I'm Catholic? You bet your cricket butt. There's a sick woman involved and there's no way I'm going to tarnish her remaining days.

Do I go to mass? Sometimes, because I still feel very spiritual and I like the idea of honoring the great-big-unknowable in a group... it's comforting. I like the feeling of a "holy" building, even if I think the unholy management is ignoring what the church was built on.

But do I agree with the Catholic church, do I even like the Catholic church? No. And I don't have to. The way that I don't have to agree that we should abolish social programs and stick to "small" government. The way that I don't have to agree that because I am fat I am a less valuable person than someone else.

There are many people and groups I with whom I disagree. And in many cases those people are so set in their ways that I'm never going to break them down. But if I want to live a positive life, a live moving forward and not stewing in my juices, I have to shift my focus on them, and turn it to me-- turn it to the little differences I can make in my own circle-- and hope that the little ripples that extend from those actions will be a part of the good, the change, the hope in this world.

Hang in there. You are a good man and you are doing good for the world. Your ripples will have effect. But it takes time and patience, and often we don't see them in our lifetime. Focus on what you can do, and what you do do, B-- and that, my friend, is a lot.

[wendybeth]

GD- you might find a parish that is a bit more liberal than others, but at the end of the day the Vatican sets church dogma and policy. The Catholic church isn't like the reformed or Protestant churches- it's their way or the highway. You may attend a church where the priest might look the other way on some things, but you are very much aware that you are not following church doctrine. If you truly believe the Catholic doctrine, then you have to follow the church's teachings or you are not in good standing. Many have tried over the centuries to change things, and some success has happened, but most end up getting excommunicated or leaving on their own.

[Gemini Cricket]

So much wisdom on this board. I'm seriously humbled.

I need time to reply properly.

:)

[Gemini Cricket]

I was going to quote people but it got confusing... So here's a mishmash of the innerworkings of a cricket...


I don't know if there is a god/God/G*d etc. I don't pray, either. I often have these inner conversations with my consciene, but I truthfully can't say that I pray. Both are a huge sore spot with the parents, but I'd rather be honest with them. I've never see going back to church as an option. I can't see condoning a group that seeks to make me disappear. One of the big things I have been struggling with is this: people say they are Catholic and support gay marriage but then turn around and donate money to the church that in turn funds anti-gay causes all around the country. ie. 1998's anti-gay marriage initiative in Hawai'i was funded by the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church. That is a fact. Where did this money come from? Well, some of it came from the faithful with fat checkbooks who say they love me and want me to get married to Ralphie. Huh??

I'd start my own religion if I actually like leading. I don't always. This comes in conflict with the great people who tell me that Ralphie and I are great role models. I don't want to be a role model, either. I'm just me. We're just us. My personal rules about me not following blindly go for others as well... Don't follow, find your own path.

If the Church and other religions did not pursuade law so effectively, I wouldn't have a problem with them at all. I'd say, 'Well that's their deal and they own it. As long as they are preaching to their own, it doesn't affect me.' But it does and it shouldn't.

Now, let me clarify something. I don't attribute my current conflict and grief to the lack of participation in a religion. Believe it or not, I was worse off when I did participate in Sunday masses etc. As much as I miss Midnight Mass, I can play a few Christmas CDs with choral arangements and quench my missing it...

I appreciate everyone's kind words a great deal. :)

[Capt Jack]

hmm.....not too sure I have anything to add here and am hesitant at best, but eh....what the 773H.

my father had a strong belief in god/higher intelligence (as do I), but a strong disdain for organized religions as a whole. I would see him study the worlds great religions in ernest but never take one as his own. he often said in his observation, the two have nearly nothing to do with each other...a viewpoint I've come to embrace myself.

I believe his disdain was rooted in seeing so many singular interpretations spewed about as 'the word of god' while those self same people would line their pockets with the hard earned living of those who needed/sought guidance. those folk seeking the knowledge and wisdom of god would rely on the religious leaders for meaning/personal action/interpretation rather than discovering those meanings for themselves and taking faith in what they themselves feel and learn through personal experience and witnessing god doin' his thing.

that point of view does help (me at least) with separating oneself from unpopular 'popular belief' vs 'what I think is right and by gods design', while putting blame for the inherent ills where it belongs. on the people themselves.

I think the key you are looking for is believing what you believe, act as your personal faith demands and recognizing that organized religions, while they may indeed have their uses for a great many folk, are created and run by people....and are therefore fundamentally flawed from the start.

mi dos centavos


edit: I think I stared at that horse thing for 20 minutes. damn thing is hynotic!

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I sometimes (half-jokingly) refer to myself as a Born-Again Atheist. While I am strongly opposed to religions, I do recognize that they are not wholly evil and that many people find solace in them. So while I am hardly the person to be seeing religious counseling from, you may wish to check out Dignity (http://www.dignityusa.org/), a national organization of GLBT Catholics. There's even a Boston chapter (http://www.dignityboston.org/).

[Cadaverous Pallor]

GC, I really empathize. I have been battling the same demons on the Jewish side of the fence. I tend to make things black and white and it's rough.

I've decided that there's no way the one God of my personal beliefs would condone some of the things said in the Torah (including killing gay people). Having said that, I can't possibly believe that God himself wrote the Torah. This completely undermines being able to call myself a Jew. Even if I believe that the people and events in the Torah actually existed, which I still do, a big claim within the book itself is that God told it to Moses word for word.

So, ok, fine, how about if the Chosen People were divinely inspired, but not dictated to? Well, then I end up with a book without any oomph to it. It's one thing to read a human's take on reality and agree with it, but I sure as hell aren't going to think it's the be-all end-all.

Losing the rock-solid black and white of "God said so" has shaken me ever since. Am I really a Jew? I try to think of Abraham and take comfort in it. Being a Jew has little to do with challah and Hebrew - in the end, it's a belief in one God, and an intent to do right by others. That's what "the Chosen People" means - we're supposed to be a good example for the world.

I still love the culture, the language, the food, the gatherings, you name it, but I've been so seperated from it for so long, it leaves me feeling conflicted. I have issues with synagogues but that's a whole other subject. I know that one day I'll bring more Judaism into my life, but it'll be a while.

My disgust with those that wish to legislate according to their religious beliefs echoes onto my problems with organized Judaism, even though those in gov't are almost always from the Christian Right. Religious persecution is religious persecution, and I don't care what side it comes from.

Anyway, that's my ramble on the subject. I have no way to console you, GC, because I feel the same way. I'm also trying to take the wise words others have said here to heart, for my own inner turmoil. I can think "I should deal" but that doesn't mean I can make it manifest...

[Not Afraid]

I sometimes (half-jokingly) refer to myself as a Born-Again Atheist. While I am strongly opposed to religions, I do recognize that they are not wholly evil and that many people find solace in them. So while I am hardly the person to be seeing religious counseling from, you may wish to check out Dignity (http://www.dignityusa.org/), a national organization of GLBT Catholics. There's even a Boston chapter (http://www.dignityboston.org/).

I just can't let this go by without quoting one of my all time favorite sayings that I, personally and wholeheartedly, believe:

Religion is man made, but Spirituality is God given. Of course, my definition of God may or may not be the same as yours. ;)

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Regarding those people who say one thing and do another: we're all hypocrites at one time or another. We're all horribly flawed in a cornucopia of ways. This does not excuse anyone's behavior. But it does bring out compassion in me. Oh, the human race. By and large, we suck. But there are moments of great beauty and grace among us--each one of us-- now and then, and if I didn't try to cling to those, I don't know how I'd get out of bed in the morning.

[€uroMeinke]

Yeah - what Hetdt said - there isn't a man or organizaion that isn't flawed in some way. On the other hand, I don't believe there is man or organizaion that is purely corrupt or evil.

I think one of the greatest tools of Christianity is the whole concept of forgiveness. It really is about getting past the flaws and looking at the inherent good within each of us - Perhaps one way for you to move on is to forgive the church (or it's contributors) it's ignorance. Yes they support some awful and stupid stuff, but that is not what the whole organization is about.

But I understand that one issue has overwhellming focus for you - but that is just the thing that will prevent you from ever moving on. If that is your goal, you have to find some way of acceptance. Rejection of the church alltogether is also an option, but I don't think you want to start discarding friends becasue they're donnated to the church.

[Gemini Cricket]

I thought about Dignity a long time ago. I wouldn't want to sit through mass, but I'm sure they have a priest or two that I could speak with. We'll see.

I think a lot of people have these conflicts with their religion or the religion they were brought up with. I'm thinking we don't hear enough about them or from them about their struggles... I could write something, I suppose. 'A Million Little Crickets'. :D

Maybe I'm not an activist. Maybe I'm not the right breed to be one.

I agree that we're all hypocrites at some time in our lives. But I'm not in denial telling people that I'm not one and that I'm better than a certain type of people. Bleh.

Forgive the Catholic Church. Accept their flaws. I'd like to do both but I'm not there yet. I've rejected them outright but that doesn't/didn't change the hurt I feel. It doesn't calm the anger.

Maybe I can influence change without taking them so personally? Maybe not looking for the moments to influence, only confront it when confronted? Maybe when I am truly comfortable with my sexuality, with my beliefs, with Brad?

Maybe
Maybe
Maybe...
:)

[Capt Jack]

...On the other hand, I don't believe there is man or organizaion that is purely corrupt or evil.

I wish I could agree with this, but in my short time here on earth Ive met one or two that from all I could gather were truly without a single redeeming quality of any sort.

Fortunately, the two that jump immediately to mind have....lets say, left this mortal coil rather abruptly.

good riddance :evil:

[innerSpaceman]

Speaking of good riddance ... it's my recommended policy, GC, for how to continue your stance on the Catholic Church.

Are you really in need of any organized religion?

At your level of spiritual enlightenment, I hardly think so. The choice will continue to be yours alone, but I think you've passed the church far behind on the road to nirvana,, salvatation, enlightenment and grokking with God.


If you need to sing kumbaya with folks, I'm sure something else can be arranged.




.

[Gemini Cricket]

Capt Jack ~ When I experience people like that, I actually feel bad for them. I really do. Maybe that's my problem. The Church says crapp-o things and instead of detatching, I feel bad for them. It's a loop.


iSm ~ I can only attribute that to great souls rubbing off on me. I consider you one of those. Totally.
:)

I'm learning that religion may not be for me at all. But, I'm thinking any organized anything is not something for me.


"Kumbaya... my Lord or higher entity who may or may not exist... Kumbaya..."
(Doesn't quite roll of the tongue like the original...)
:D

[Nephythys]

You do not need to be affiliated to appreciate the good aspects of any religion, or to appreciate the loving wonderfulness of Jesus Christ.




Amen and Amen.:snap:

Hugs GC- you have been one of the most reasonable people I have ever disagreed with. ;) I'm sorry to see you conflicted and hurting.

I hope you can find that resolution, for all aspects of your life. What you are feeling is, in my experience, universal- we all go through it in one way or another.

[Not Afraid]

Speaking of good riddance ... it's my recommended policy, GC, for how to continue your stance on the Catholic Church.

Are you really in need of any organized religion?

At your level of spiritual enlightenment, I hardly think so. The choice will continue to be yours alone, but I think you've passed the church far behind on the road to nirvana,, salvatation, enlightenment and grokking with God.


If you need to sing kumbaya with folks, I'm sure something else can be arranged.

You are a wise old man, my friend.


But, can we at least choose another song???????

[innerSpaceman]

Infinity Bottles of Beer On the Wall, then. Very appropriate for everlasting spiritual eternity sing-alongs.

[MouseWife]

I hope this post doesn't repeat others views as I can't remember how far I read back the other day~

I love your quote, Lisa. That goes with what iSm said. And how I have come to feel, as well.

You don't need to belong to a church to have God in your life. I think people stress that you do because they think it makes them better people to bring you in to the fold. {Oh, that is harsh but how about it eases their souls to try and 'save' you?}

I think there are good and bad people in all groups. Very good, very bad. I also think that, from my upbringings experience with the Church, guilt is a big part of it. Guilt and fear. I had enough of that.

So, if you feel God in your heart, well, I think that is where He is supposed to be. If going to church gives you comfort, go. If it makes you angry to hear their views, find a group that has similar views. There has to be one. I only say to go that route because you wouldn't go to Disneyland to enjoy it with a bunch of people who were knocking it all of the time, would you? It wouldn't change what Disneyland means to you but would you want to spend the day arguing the point with them? Why not go with friends?

You guys are pretty deep and there I go comparing Church to Disneyland. :blush: Oh well.

I am not gay but I felt unwelcome to go to the church and guilty about my life. My mother still says we should get married in the church and I won't. Oh, hell, maybe I will because she is pretty darn old and it would make her happy BUT I wouldn't agree to some of the terms they have for wives.

I have to agree with some of the comments~ you are a very level headed person, very well balanced. So sorry to see you having this issue.

[SacTown Chronic]

I think most gay activism money is going towards teens. Have you noticed how relatively easy it is to be a gay teenager in America in the 21st century? It's awesome!

So I'm talking to my son the other day, just kinda shooting the bull about nothing and everything, and he rattles off the names of about four or five openly gay guys from his school. He says that the whole school knows who's gay and out and nobody really cares about sexual orientation and nobody gets picked on for being gay.


The children shall lead us.

[Nephythys]

If only Sac- at my sons school being gay is a huge insult and is weilded as such. Makes me sad. Because if they abuse my son, who is not gay- imagine what these kids would do to a kid who was and said so. :(

[innerSpaceman]

At the mall about a month ago, a kid commented out loud about a Brokeback Mountain movie poster, using the word "fag." The eight or nine kids of mixed genders he was with came down on him hard. They equated the term 'fag' with the infamous "N" word, and they told their friend never to use that word around them again.


Where does that leave us in the battle of anecdotal evidence?

[SacTown Chronic]

Sounds like it leaves us in California.

[wendybeth]

Not necessarily. Up here in the PNW, Eastern Wa to be exact, I've been pleasantly surprised by the attitudes of a lot of kids regarding homosexuality. There is a lot of support for gay teens and adults and I never hear anything negative from the kids I know.

[Gemini Cricket]

Here are 3 things that make me scratch my head:

1. People using the word 'gay' to describe something or someone lame.

2. How anti-gay people always use the word 'homosexual' instead of the word 'gay' to describe people. But I guess they're catering to the people who find the words 'homo' and 'sex' reprehensible.

3. Cooties.


-----------------

I have noticed more and more of the younger generations being open minded about same-sex issues. It's interesting to see how much easier it was for my sister (who is 11 years younger than me) to come out than it was for me. (Although sometimes it feels like it's easier for women to come out than men. At least in this country...)

[SacTown Chronic]

Cooties come from girls, GC.

[Not Afraid]

HEY!

[SacTown Chronic]

Hmmm, an all caps "HEY!" but no denial. I rest my case.

[Not Afraid]

:p

[innerSpaceman]

1. People using the word 'gay' to describe something or someone lame.
Totally the fault of the gays. Why choose the word "gay," which already had a meaning of carefree happiness before it meant homosexual. Now it's got a perfectly-fitting third meaning. And I myself use it all the time. I probably use "gay" more to mean 'lame in a fruity way' than I do to mean queer.

2. How anti-gay people always use the word 'homosexual' instead of the word 'gay' to describe people.
Relax. Would you rather they used "fag?" They don't have to subscribe to anyone's desired slang. (Especially failed slang like "gay," see No. 1 above.)

3. Cooties.
SacTown is right about cooties.

[Gemini Cricket]

I probably use "gay" more to mean 'lame in a fruity way' than I do to mean queer.
And what does 'lame in a fruity way' mean?
Relax. Would you rather they used "fag?" They don't have to subscribe to anyone's desired slang. (Especially failed slang like "gay," see No. 1 above.)
It's more like when most usually say 'gay marriage' they have to say 'homosexual marriage'. Which is correct in a grammar way, but is used to highlight a negative feel about the word 'homosexual' itself. They can't get away with 'fag marriage' in the media, but of course I'm sure Savage and Coulter can. Take a look at press releases and letters by right wing crazies, it's always 'homosexual' and not 'gay'. Even the AP just came out recently and said journalism etiquette is the use of 'gay' and not 'homosexual'.
SacTown is right about cooties.
Girls = Cooties. I had a feeling.

:D

[mousepod]

Shortly after I moved to San Francisco, I got a job working at a indie (read: punk) record distributor. There was this guy, Ken, who worked with me who was the embodiment of a good leftie skinhead. Built like a fireplug, shaved head, jacket covered in patches of punk bands from eastern europe that few people outside eastern europe ever heard of.

One lunchtime, we decided to go record shopping (that's how frightening my life is - taking a break from a music warehouse to go to a record store). We go to Tower Records in the Castro, pick out our CDs and get in line.

"What are you getting, Ken?"

"The new CD by Cripple Bastards [I don't actually remember what he bought, but you get the idea]. What about you?"

"The new Hanson CD. I know it's gay, but what can I say? I really like it."

I spoke the words in a clear and resonant tone, without a shred of sarcasm. The crowd of shoppers, many of whom were undoubtedly gay, didn't flinch. Ken, however, looked sick. His bald head turned beet red.

"Jesse, don't you know where we are? You shouldn't use terms like that."

I was at once revolted by the super-PC reaction of my companion and touched that this dangerous looking skinhead was so compassionate and liberal. But mostly I was revolted.

That's my story. Thought it was a good place to tell it.

And in hindsight, "Mmm-bop" is still pretty gay, but I like it.

[innerSpaceman]

Good story. Most gays grock the difference between gay and Gay.

I'm sorry that I can't explain it any better than "lame in a fruity way." If there were a better way to say it, we wouldn't have to say "gay." It's the perfect word for the sentiment. The mo's have fag and queer and, well, homo, to replace "Gay." There are no other choices for "gay."


Ya know, I like that "gay" doesn't necessarily mean "bad." Perfect example: "The new Hanson CD. I know it's gay, but what can I say? I really like it." It's just a particular quality... often referred to without admiration, but rarely without affection.


I also like that gays are ok with "gay." It's kinda like being able to laugh at yourself ... and I think that's a very healthy attitude.

[Gemini Cricket]

I also like that gays are ok with "gay." It's kinda like being able to laugh at yourself ... and I think that's a very healthy attitude.
Not all. I still cringe when I hear it. It equates being gay with being lame or weak. Maybe if I was healthier, I'd laugh at it. I'm not there yet.

For me, it's up there with 'girlie man' or 'you throw like a girl'. It implies that there's something wrong with a male being like a female. Calling something lame 'gay' says that gay = lame. It's as simple as that...
:)

[innerSpaceman]

But it's not just "lame." For lame things, we say "lame."

We need "gay" to describe that particular brand of lame that is, well, ya know, gay.


It's kinda like how the eskimos have twelve words for snow.



I'll concede that, in a way, lame-gay refers to something being effeminatish. That can have a poor connotation when Gay also means effeminatish. I just don't think it does in this day and age. Gay means homosexual. There are plenty of other words reserved for particularly effeminate homosexuals, but Gay is pretty generic.


Sorry if you find it insulting, GC.


Blacks can call each other 'n i gg er' all the day long, but don't anyone else dare say that word. We've all got a long way to go, but we're getting there.


* * * * * *

On the other hand, I agree with you about "homosexual marriage." That's just fear-baiting, plain and simple. But I don't know why. Does it just sound more nasty? It certainly doesn't sound as happy as "gay marriage." Doesn't everybody wish they had a gay marriage??

Hardly a term opponents are likely to use.




* * * * * *

I'm glad everyone's in accord about cooties.

[mousepod]

GC, I hear what you're saying.

I get angry when someone says that they "jewed someone down on the price."
I have been careful to remove words like "gyp" from my vocabulary, once I realize what they connoted.

I understand what your beef is, and as a het I wouldn't want to flippantly use a term that might insult you.

Having said that, I want to point out that iSm hit the nail on the head with regards to my intent. I always use the term in an affectionate way, never to pass judgement. I know that I've called myself a geek since I was in 5th grade and continue to chuckle about geeky things and never give a second thought to the carny etymology of the term.

My Gay friends are all cooler than Hanson. Otherwise, they wouldn't be my friends.

[Gemini Cricket]

I understand what your beef is, and as a het I wouldn't want to flippantly use a term that might insult you.

I wasn't at all insulted by you, mousepod. Not in the least. I wasn't directing that at you at all. I totally think iSm and you are making great points. It's different when you hear it from someone you know. When you hear it randomly in public, it's stinky.
:)

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm really not meaning to be a pain in the a$s here, but...
We need "gay" to describe that particular brand of lame that is, well, ya know, gay.
Most of the time, it is used in a negative situation. If people hear it used enough to describe something in a negative way, I think people start to believe 'gay' is something bad.

[Nephythys]

I'm really not meaning to be a pain in the a$s here, but...

Most of the time, it is used in a negative situation. If people hear it used enough to describe something in a negative way, I think people start to believe 'gay' is something bad.


Exactly what I mean in this case-

Kids at the school use it to mean "lame", but they also ARE calling my son gay as in Gay. He's not (and we have discussed it)- but because of his level of maturity, his tendency to come across very emotional and sensitive ("traditional female" traits:rolleyes: ), his decision to have long curly hair, and the fact that his two friends are boys who are also prone to be targets - has made the "bully" kids decide that he is full blown Gay. Not just lame-

If he was Gay-he could never say it- not in that atmosphere. I want to convince him to blow them off- because he needs to not take the bait, but he's sooo touchy. Add to that the fact that there is still stigma attached, negative stigma- he sees it all as an insult. It's a rough corner to be in.

[Not Afraid]

You know, I don't mind being called - or calling myself - a fag hag, but I HATE the term fruit fly. I'm not absolutely sure why that is, but somehow, fag hag just seems like the right phrase.

[Ponine]

You know, I don't mind being called - or calling myself - a fag hag, but I HATE the term fruit fly. I'm not absolutely sure why that is, but somehow, fag hag just seems like the right phrase.
Cause you are too tall to be a fruit fly.
You take fag hag, I'll take fruit fly.

No one has ever used the term fag hag as anything less than an insult around me. I hear it used nicely, then maybe I will acknowledge it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

re: "Homosexual" - I think it's because of the subtext of why they so pointedly stick to that word. They're saying, "Look, I'm very carefully using the technical term so you can't accuse me of using hate speech or being prejudice, therefore it lends credence to my overall statement". It often comes across in that, "I'm saying 'homosexual', but you know what word I'm really thinking" kinda way.

[Gemini Cricket]

It often comes across in that, "I'm saying 'homosexual', but you know what word I'm really thinking" kinda way.
Exactly.


I don't know how I feel about 'fag hag' sometimes. I mean I say it every now and then, but it doesn't feel right often. If a girlfriend of mine calls herself that, it doesn't bug me if it doesn't bug her. Like if someone gay calls himself /herself or me 'fag', it doesn't bug me. My sister calls me 'fag' and I call her 'dyke' it doesn't bother either of us.

I don't know. Reading this thread over, I'm feeling like I have too many hang ups.
:D

[€uroMeinke]

I don't know. Reading this thread over, I'm feeling like I have too many hang ups.
:D

Really, you need to learn to let go and move on...

[Ghoulish Delight]

I oscilate back and forth...one part of me says, "The word is just a word. It doesn't matter what word you use, if you're bigotted it'll come through and if you're not, it'll be obvious so who cares." Another part of me sees the view that getting lazy with language and pretending that language doesn't matter makes it hard for people to distinguish appropriate from inappropriate attitudes.

Douglas Hofstadter wrote a rather provocative column 20+ years ago called A Person Paper on Purity in Language (http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion/personpaper/). He wrote it as an aside in the ongoing (and in 1982, very topical) discussion of gender non-neutrality in the English language. He invented a world in which the English IS gender neutral, but, NOT race-neutral, and then proceded to make the same arguments defending this status-quo as were being made to defend gender non-neutrality. It may not prove anything at all, but it certainly makes one think.

[€uroMeinke]

Language is an intereting beast - sometimes the euphamism becomes the next epithet, othertimes it becomes a badge of honor - just look at:

Colored
Negro
Black
African American

All at least one time were prefered useages - but over time the connotations attached to each morphed both meaning and intent.

I like the idea of siezing langauge - there was an ioten in NPR not too long ago in which they talked about how some of the success of the republican party has been their ability to define the terms in their favor - but that's even more of a derail - perhaps I'll come back later and create a language thread.

[Gemini Cricket]

Really, you need to learn to let go and move on...
Well, give a girl time! I just came to terms with that very idea yesterday...
:D

[Prudence]

re: "Homosexual" - I think it's because of the subtext of why they so pointedly stick to that word. They're saying, "Look, I'm very carefully using the technical term so you can't accuse me of using hate speech or being prejudice, therefore it lends credence to my overall statement". It often comes across in that, "I'm saying 'homosexual', but you know what word I'm really thinking" kinda way.

Yup. This happens to a lot of groups. The words say "I'm socially correct" and the tone says "I have dog sh!t on my shoe."

[SzczerbiakManiac]

GC, have you heard of the book Sons of the Church: The Witnessing of Gay Catholic Men (http://www.adlbooks.com/displaydetailfull.cfm?isbn=1560235810)?

[Gemini Cricket]

GC, have you heard of the book Sons of the Church: The Witnessing of Gay Catholic Men (http://www.adlbooks.com/displaydetailfull.cfm?isbn=1560235810)?
I just did a little research on it. Interesting. I'd read it.
And the fact that Sister Jeannine Gramick, PhD likes it speaks very highly for it. She's one of the coolest nuns ever.
:)

[Gemini Cricket]

My sister just left me a voice mail to tell me that my father just went to Costco and bought 'Brokeback Mountain' on DVD. He bought it so the family could watch it together. Him, my 2 sisters and my mom...

Holy Moley! This is a huge step for my dad. Mr. Deacon with the Catholic Church and former police sargeant with the police dept.

I think this is good news indeed. He would have never, ever done something like this 8 years ago. My dad totally rocks. I mean, walking the DVD up to the counter at Costco? Mr. Macho? Wow, my dad's the coolest.

:)

[Snowflake]

My sister just left me a voice mail to tell me that my father just went to Costco and bought 'Brokeback Mountain' on DVD. He bought it so the family could watch it together. Him, my 2 sisters and my mom...

Holy Moley! This is a huge step for my dad. Mr. Deacon with the Catholic Church and former police sargeant with the police dept.

I think this is good news indeed. He would have never, ever done something like this 8 years ago. My dad totally rocks. I mean, walking the DVD up to the counter at Costco? Mr. Macho? Wow, my dad's the coolest.

:)

Ooh! GC! This is fabulous! Here's to you and your mega cool Dad!:snap:

snowflake

[libraryvixen]

Wow GC!! That's awesome!

[bewitched]

I am coming late to this discussion (and I rewrote this several times and I'm still not sure I have it right), however...

It strikes me that your difficulty is not in what you believe, or for that matter what the Catholic Church believes. Rather it is a question of what you do with all of that. For me (I'm an atheistic leaning agnostic, raised Methodist), there is no discrepancy in loving the ceremony of the church while shunning many (most?) of their teachings.

For all that I have turned my back on organized religion, I still find comfort in going to Christmas eve services. The yearly ritual, in which little changes, takes me back to a time when worries were few, when Santa was bringing presents the next day and when all was right with my world. Going to the services now obviously does not mean I want to go back (or for that matter that I have any interest in embracing religion), only that for a short time I can remember the magic of childhood.

I have also found myself on occasion entering a Catholic Church and lighting a candle for someone. It is not the conotation that the church gives it that I seek, it is the feeling within myself that there are times I can do nothing but exist on faith (whatever that faith may be). I also have to say that I find sitting in a church one of the most comforting places to be when I have been in a bad place in my life. Not because of the religion, but because I know that it is a place where so many have come looking for answers to their pain. I think you mentioned being an "old soul", I kind of view churches in the same light.

Many people turn to religion when they seek answers to the unknown. There is obviously a comfort in knowing that there is a reason for things, even if that reason can never be known. I strikes me that what you are looking for is not religion (or Catholicism itself) but a comfortable answer for many things in your life. And it may be that there are no comfortable answers. And it may also be that many of your memories from when you were safe, cocooned and loved are tied to the Catholic church, and church ritual; to feel that again would make things right in your world.

I don't know if I am making sense to you, or even if I am close to the mark. But from my perspective, take what you need from the church and it's services. Make it what you need it to be, not what anyone is telling you it should be. If there is a God, it seems to me that in your worship, he would want you to be true to yourself, not to some supposed "ideal" that a whole bunch of men decided upon long ago. It has been said many times that we are all sinners. None of us meet the "ideal" (okay, I come damn close, but I digress ;) ) so maybe go sit in church, listen to yourself and find out what and where your faith is. And if the Catholic church is where you find it, put your faith there, and don't let anyone tell you that it doesn't fit.

Good luck!

[Gemini Cricket]

I must say, bewitched, that your post totally hit a homerun for me. Lots of lights going on in my head as I read it.
The yearly ritual, in which little changes, takes me back to a time when worries were few, when Santa was bringing presents the next day and when all was right with my world. Going to the services now obviously does not mean I want to go back (or for that matter that I have any interest in embracing religion), only that for a short time I can remember the magic of childhood.
Yes. Absolutely. I have never really thought of it in this way, but there are many comforting memories that I have of sitting at Midnight Mass feeling completely happy. The family is all together, we dressed up, there are decorations all over the place, there are songs to sing, there are presents to open after we get home... :)
Not because of the religion, but because I know that it is a place where so many have come looking for answers to their pain. I think you mentioned being an "old soul", I kind of view churches in the same light.
When I was younger, I found comfort in sitting in the old churches. The cathedrals and such in my home state and the missions in California. I was always turned off by the churches that were converted cafeterias etc. Recently, Notre Dame in Paris blew me away. Depsite all of the tourists, I found it comforting. The same with Westminster Abbey in London. I'd love to visit the Sistine Chapel someday.
I strikes me that what you are looking for is not religion (or Catholicism itself) but a comfortable answer for many things in your life. And it may be that there are no comfortable answers. And it may also be that many of your memories from when you were safe, cocooned and loved are tied to the Catholic church, and church ritual; to feel that again would make things right in your world.
Absolutely. I know there is no such thing as an easy answer to any question. But seeing how people are so comforted and put at ease by what I condsider to be the black and white world of religion makes me envious at times. But that easy answer environment is not for me. I feel like I live in a world where I'm not part of any majority group whatsoever. I'm not religious, I'm not straight, I'm not white, I'm not rich, I don't shop at Wal*Mart, I don't watch TV, I don't agree with the current Administration, etc. Sometimes I wish I was 'just like everybody else' and didn't have to feel like I have to watch my back. But I know that is fantasy. Maybe that dream (of being a rich white guy with a wife and three kids on a hammock in the backyard of the house I own with the dog and the cat) is total crapola, but sometimes I wish it were just easier for me in this country. But I also think, 'Who wants to be like everyone else?' My mind's a hurricane sometimes.
None of us meet the "ideal" (okay, I come damn close, but I digress ;) ) so maybe go sit in church, listen to yourself and find out what and where your faith is. And if the Catholic church is where you find it, put your faith there, and don't let anyone tell you that it doesn't fit.

Reclaiming my faith in faith. It can be done. I'm not sure if it's at the Catholic Church or not, but I'm hoping I'll find it.
I don't know if I am making sense to you, or even if I am close to the mark.
You made complete sense in your post. I am grateful that you have put your voice into this thread. You're eloquent and hit a lot of bullseyes with me.
Thank you.
:)

[bewitched]

Of course. :)

[Gemini Cricket]

I just remembered something else. A couple of days ago, my dad asked me how I felt about the whole AFA boycott of Ford. (Oy, did I tell him.) But he said, 'Yeah, I think the AFA's stupid. I mean, I saw your sister's copy of 'The Advocate' and you don't see the AFA boycotting Subaru and all those other companies that advertise there.'
I was shocked. He actually opened the copy of 'The Advocate'. Wow.
:)

[alphabassettgrrl]

GC, that's great that your dad picked up Brokeback. :)

Bewitched, I liked what you had to say. I always felt I was odd, a non-catholic, to go into a church, and light a candle. Are they going to think me intrusive? I have always tried to be respectful, though I have some issues with religion. I love the beauty of the old churches. I was just at the one in downtown LA, across from Union Station. I love the Missions, though I deplore many of the things that happened under their watch. Mission San Buenaventura is near me, and it's gorgeous. There's just an air of peace to the place. Small garden in the middle, the magnificent church, and it's quiet and gentle and then there's the statue of Mary in the garden, which always has flowers and candles in front of her. Mary's someone I could connect to.

Thank you.

[bewitched]

I love the beauty of the old churches. I was just at the one in downtown LA, across from Union Station. I love the Missions, though I deplore many of the things that happened under their watch. Mission San Buenaventura is near me, and it's gorgeous. There's just an air of peace to the place. Small garden in the middle, the magnificent church, and it's quiet and gentle and then there's the statue of Mary in the garden, which always has flowers and candles in front of her. Mary's someone I could connect to.



It is the old churches that I was talking about. There is an old Cathedral in downtown St. Louis that was built in 1916, Whenever I was downtown, I liked to go inside and just sit. There is an air of peace. As I said, these churches are like old souls that have seen so much happiness and pain that they have reached a quiet equilibrium of sorts.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Exactly. Seen it all, and still standing, with grace.