The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[innerSpaceman]

Hahaha, Visible Penis Humor mojo for Strangler Lewis!

[SacTown Chronic]

Heh, the 3000th random political thought (Part Deux) was about co<ks and mojo. Welcome to the LoT.

[scaeagles]

Doesn't seem like Romney is completely dead yet - he has a lead (though a slim 38-35 lead) in delegate rich CA, and a national poll shows a 38-38 tie with McCain. There are Rasmussen polls just released today (or at least that I only heard about today).

[Ghoulish Delight]

Doesn't seem like Romney is completely dead yet - he has a lead (though a slim 38-35 lead) in delegate rich CA, and a national poll shows a 38-38 tie with McCain. There are Rasmussen polls just released today (or at least that I only heard about today).
Filed poll says 32-24 McCain as of today. Meanwhile, Obama's shot up to within 2% of Clinton in California, with 18% undecided. Too close to call.

[scaeagles]

Completely my bad. I misread and the 38-38 tie was in CA. Still what I've read today isn't 34-24 McCain, it's 33-29. (http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll)

However, the numbers certainly vary. I've seen 38-35 Romney over McCain in CA, 37-33 Romney over McCain in CA, and anywhere from a 4-7 pt McCain national advantage.

Why do I bother to look at polls anyway?

[3894]

I have seen it, right in my own family.

My daughters (15 and 18) are for Obama. They are actually getting involved. They are organizing a voter registration drive at their high school for the Wisconsin primary and very much looking forward to an Obama event on Tuesday night here (Mr. Wonderful won't be there but whatever).

[scaeagles]

Why doesn't this surprise me? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080203/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp_31)

The New York senator has criticized presidential rival Barack Obama for pushing a health plan that would not require universal coverage. Clinton has not always specified the enforcement measures she would embrace, but when pressed on ABC's "This Week," she said: "I think there are a number of mechanisms" that are possible, including "going after people's wages, automatic enrollment.

I love the government forcing the populace to do stuff.

[sleepyjeff]

Romney won the Gold in Maine yesterday 52% to 21%:)

[innerSpaceman]

Why doesn't this surprise me? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080203/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp_31)



I love the government forcing the populace to do stuff.

You mean like passing a driving test and getting a license and paying registration, those kind of things?

Yes, i get the difference ... the new one is a regulation and tax on simply being alive, while the other is for the privilege of driving.

But make no mistake, driving has become central and irrevocably entangled with my, and millions of others', prosperous american lifestyles. And i don't balk that the government makes me do it.

If this is what it takes to improve healthcare significantly in this country, it will hardly seem more of a sacrifice of freedom to me than a driver's license or hand gun license.

[scaeagles]

It seems like a better analogy would be that since driving is so important to freedom that everyone should be taxed to provide all with a car and insurance. Afterall, it isn't fair that some people don't have a car or a reliable one. So let's garnish wages and raise taxes to force everyone who doesn't have a car to get one....it's only fair.

[Strangler Lewis]

It seems like a better analogy would be that since education is so important to ensuring a trained work force and a law abiding populace that there should be public schools and that those who do not have children should pay for the education of all to a minimum level rather than leaving them to learn citizenship and civics in the gutter or at their megachurch, yeshiva or madrassah. And those who are armed to the teeth should pay for the police protection of those who are not.

At any rate, I don't think the legitimacy of requiring people to get health insurance can be questioned so long as we can identify some societal consequence of their failure to do so. I haven't looked into it deeply enough to say what's better. It may be that the societal consequence is akin to those behind seatbelt and helmet laws. It may also be that leaving people the "choice" of going uninsured means extra burdens on public hospitals, also a legitimate consideration in my opinion.

[scaeagles]

Hmm....and look at the condition of public education in general. Constant harping on how our kids don't do as well in science and math as other industrialized nations, and the solution is typically to throw more money at it, as if money solves the basic problems. There is a reason my kids go to private school. Regardless of where my kids go, the education system is an example of why I don't think such a health system will work.

For their own good, and for the benefit of society in general, the obese should be forced into exercise and weight reduction programs, and have their wages garnished if they will not do it willingly. After all, who can argue that eliminating obesity would not be good for the individual and society in general, and reduce the overall cost of health care?

[Strangler Lewis]

I thought you sent your kids to private school in the hope of having them avoid cultural influences that you believe to be negative. In that sense, the money you're throwing at that problem may be well spent. It may not be. As far as academic performance goes, no kid in public or private school will do well without parental involvement and interest in what they're doing.

If crack or gay sex were as likely to cause obesity as overeating, I imagine the conservative lawmakers among us would cast a more suspicious eye on it. It may be appropriate that we defend our freedoms most strongly when they result in bad behavior, but it's sad. In fact, I imagine that it 's the unhealthy exercise of various cherished freedoms that you're trying to avoid when you send your children to private schools.

[scaeagles]

There are a variety of reasons I send my children to private school, which include both social and academic reasons. However, I am not so ignorant as to think that private school shelters them from all the influences that I see as negative.

In my example, the cause of the obesity isn't the issue. If health insurance should be required to the point of garnishment of wages because it is deemed best for the individual and society, then why not have mandatory exercise programs? People who exercise are typically more healthy than those who do not. Let's require vitamins and an oat bran muffin daily as well.

I don't understand the concept the concept of acceptance of the ever growing nanny state, nor the encouragement for it to grow ever larger.

[Scrooge McSam]

After all, who can argue that eliminating obesity would not be good for the individual and society in general, and reduce the overall cost of health care?

The Netherlands' Institute for National Health (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080205/ap_on_he_me/obesity_cost;_ylt=AtJATJpmZNaHYMznscaJ8tOs0NUE) would.

That "and" can get you in trouble, can't it?

[scaeagles]

Interesting link, Scrooge.

Let's go the Logan's Run route then.;)

[Scrooge McSam]

Nah... just when we meet, you may want to buy me a double cheese cake with bitter chocolate sauce.... ooo ooo ooo and whipped cream.

It'll be cheaper for you in the long run.

Just trying to help

Just trying to be a blessing.

[SacTown Chronic]

The willingness to drop dead in the face of rising health care costs shows what a southern gentleman Sam truly is.

[Snowflake]

Just got this in an email from a friend in Italy:

Bush are a real dangerous killer and already an idiot.
I hope in Obama
for a new USA.
Bye
GBBrambilla

[Not Afraid]

Do you Speak Huckabee? (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18821021)

This cracked me up. (Of course, I got all but the bonus round. :rolleyes:)

[SacTown Chronic]

I'm down with what Huckabee's doing. I, too, like to pepper my conversations with obscure references from an ancient text -- Kama Sutra.

[JWBear]

I'm not a Christian, but I got most of those! Sheesh!

[Ghoulish Delight]

So Romney's endorsed McCain. What that means in terms of delegates is clear as mud. Here's (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/14/665455.aspx) a good explanation of the complications involved.

[sleepyjeff]

Not that it's going to matter much in regards to who the nominee will be.....all this really does is dilute Huckabees leverage towards VP-hood.

And let's face it......McCain may not be running for re-election in 2012 so the VP spot is a bit more important here than it normally would be.

[Ghoulish Delight]

With Romney no longer splitting the base votes, Huckabee was starting to pick up some momentum. If he had carried that AND gotten the support of Romney and whatever delegates would end up shuttled his way from that, it would have made the race pretty interesting. But yeah, Romney's clearly angling for the VP nod.

[Morrigoon]

Romney getting the VP nod would seal the deal against my voting for McCain, even with Hillary as the dem candidate. Guess I'd better starting reading up on the libertarian candidates in case Obama doesn't win the nomination...

[Ghoulish Delight]

If I hear one more bloody story about Cuba :mad:

I know it's big news, but Jeebus, how many ways can you possibly say, "It's unclear what this means for Cuba. It remains to be seen what the person or people who take over do and how much power Fidel will still hold behind the scenes." There. That's the story in two freaking sentences. There's absolutely nothing more to report. Zip. Aaaaargh!

[sleepyjeff]

If I hear one more bloody story about Cuba :mad:

I know it's big news, but Jeebus, how many ways can you possibly say, "It's unclear what this means for Cuba. It remains to be seen what the person or people who take over do and how much power Fidel will still hold behind the scenes." There. That's the story in two freaking sentences. There's absolutely nothing more to report. Zip. Aaaaargh!

You need to stop listening to NPR......go over to whatever station plays Dr. Laura for an hour and you'll on top of the world:D

[wendybeth]

You need to stop listening to NPR......go over to whatever station plays Dr. Laura for an hour and you'll on top of the world:DYou know, I think I smell a banning in the works.......;)

[JWBear]

You need to stop listening to NPR......go over to whatever station plays Dr. Laura for an hour and you'll on top of the world:D

You mean somebody still broadcasts her!? And people still listen!!??

[Gemini Cricket]

...go over to whatever station plays Dr. Laura for an hour and you'll on top of the world:D
Good Lord. Who would want to listen to the homophobic rantings of a hate-inspired crusty old mummy who took mediocre nude pictures of her va-jay-jay that has haunted the internet since 1998? She's as appealing as a Coprophiliac's smile after sex.

[mousepod]

She's as appealing as a Coprophiliac's smile after sex.

Which begs the question, is smile about hidden knowledge called a sh!t-eating grin?

[sleepyjeff]

Good Lord. Who would want to listen to the homophobic rantings of a hate-inspired crusty old mummy who took mediocre nude pictures of her va-jay-jay that has haunted the internet since 1998? She's as appealing as a Coprophiliac's smile after sex.

True....but it would make the never-ending cycle of news out of Cuba not seem so bad;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Both Obama and McCain are lefties. So as it stands now, there's a very good chance that the new President will be a lefty. Depending on if you count Regan or not (he wrote with his right hand, but it's widely believed he was among the many of his generation forced to switch when young...might explain his somewhat odd way of speaking), that would make either 4 or 5 of the last 7. Significantly out of proportion with the percentage of lefties in the population over that period. However looking at the full history of the US, prior to Ford, there had been only 3, so the current run is just making up for decades of under-representation.

[Alex]

I wonder for the older ones how many of them had it trained out of them as children for reasons of superstition.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I wonder for the older ones how many of them had it trained out of them as children for reasons of superstition.
Statistically, there's a good chance that there were at least a couple.

[JWBear]

James Garfield was ambidextrous.

[Strangler Lewis]

James Garfield was ambidextrous.

I thought that was James Buchanan.

[Morrigoon]

Kind of a neat article I found today that reinforces what I was saying about the importance of a candidate's ability to build and lead their campaign team:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23261850/

[Alex]

No Garfield was the one who could write in Latin and Greek simultaneously using both hands.

[Strangler Lewis]

So could Buchanan.

Or maybe it was just Greek.

[Alex]

I'm not finding anything that references Buchanan being ambidextrous in any language.

[JWBear]

May be Strangler is confusing "ambidextrous" with "ambiguous". ;)








(For those that don't get it... Buchanan is widely considered to have been homosexual.)

[Strangler Lewis]

Bless you.

[innerSpaceman]

(For those that don't get it... Buchanan is widely considered to have been homosexual.)

Will he be featured in your next avatar?

[Alex]

Ah, I'd forgotten that particular theory about Buchanan (though personally I don't particularly buy into it when considering his younger behavior) so I was wooshed.

[JWBear]

Will he be featured in your next avatar?

Your wish is my command!

[innerSpaceman]

Hmmm, I'm gonna have a hard (or less hard, as the case may be) time masturbating to this one ... but i'll give it my best shot.


(I'm a righty, btw) ;)

[Morrigoon]

So lemme get this straight... Hillary's answer to people being without health care is to just mandate that we buy what we already couldn't afford? May as well just frigging tax us and then provide us with the coverage, period. What a stupid "plan".

"Oooh... my plan to address the fact that so many Americans are without health care is to fine them if they don't buy insurance!"

I'm probably oversimplifying, but so, I think, are they.

(and to be fair, it sounds like that's pretty much also Obama's plan, so I'm mad at them both over this)

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, you are way oversimplifying. Considering that most careful political and economic analysis has hers as the most comprehensive and practical health care plan ever devised, I think you might be missing something.

I'm not planing on delving into the details of it. But that's why I won't attack it.

[Gemini Cricket]

CNN.com dinglecheeses!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Untitled-2-11.jpg

[JWBear]

With all due respect, GC.... If you "failed" every newspaper and internet news feed that had a typo in a headline there wouldn't be any left. They are quite common, and always have been.

[innerSpaceman]

I can' wait to catch G.C. in a misspelling of dinglecheese.

[SacTown Chronic]

Weekend daddy says the checks will soon be in the mail.

[Morrigoon]

Yeah, you are way oversimplifying. Considering that most careful political and economic analysis has hers as the most comprehensive and practical health care plan ever devised, I think you might be missing something.

I'm not planing on delving into the details of it. But that's why I won't attack it.

Good, because then it's no longer funny :)

[Gemini Cricket]

With all due respect, GC.... If you "failed" every newspaper and internet news feed that had a typo in a headline there wouldn't be any left. They are quite common, and always have been.
I think the major internet news sites should not have any mistakes in their articles. Especially not the headline for their top story on their homepage.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I think the major internet news sites should not have any mistakes in their articles. Especially not the headline for their top story on their homepage.
Keep dreaming. Newspapers have always been chock full of typos. It's nothing new and it's not going away.

With all due respect, GC.... If you "failed" every newspaper and internet news feed that had a typo in a headline there wouldn't be any left. They are quite common, and always have been.
Incidentally, I remember when my mom would actually write a letter every time she saw a newspaper article make the its/it's mistake.

[Alex]

Plus, it was fixed within 5 minutes (I checked it out as soon as you posted the picture).

I see several typos a day in the San Francisco Chronicle and the hurdle to fixing a mistake is much higher in print.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I see several typos a day in the San Francisco Chronicle and the hurdle to fixing a mistake is much higher in print.
Yeah, it was really kinda awkward the other day when a very out of breath editor knocked on my door with whiteout and a pen. I hated to have to tell him that we only get the Sunday paper.

[Gemini Cricket]

I stand by my F.

:D

[JWBear]

I stand by my F.

:D

Then you're a dinglecheese.


(But, we still like you.) :D

[Gemini Cricket]

Then you're a dinglecheese.


(But, we still like you.) :D
That will not help them get a better grade. No amount of extra credit will help them now.

[katiesue]

I'm not allowed to use "dinglecheese" anymore. It's my new favorite curse word. But Maddy's picked it up and used it in front of a guy a few weeks ago and was embarassed that he looked at her like she was, well, a dinglecheese. So I'm not supposed to say it - but I do anyway. It's so darn useful.

[Ghoulish Delight]

More than 1% of adult U.S. population is in jail (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23392251/).

Highest by percentage and by sheer # in the world. We're #1 baby!

[innerSpaceman]

Take that, Russia! Eat My Shorts, China!!

[scaeagles]

Yes, but how many of those are political prisoners? I'd bet Russia and China are ahead of us there.

[katiesue]

Keep em coming. The main industry in my hometown are prisons. We've got two huge california ones and they just opened a federal.

[Alex]

Most of ours aren't political prisoners. I'll certainly grant you that.

But way too many of them are social prudery prisoners and I don't know that this is a whole lot better.

[Gemini Cricket]

Without its prison, Tehachapi, CA would be bankrupt.

[katiesue]

Susanville would be too, since the mills closed it's almost all we have.

[Gemini Cricket]

Susanville would be too, since the mills closed it's almost all we have.
Interesting.
Tehachapi has windmills too. Half of them are defunct.

[scaeagles]

Most of ours aren't political prisoners. I'll certainly grant you that.

But way too many of them are social prudery prisoners and I don't know that this is a whole lot better.

Certainly. I would suspect, however, that most of those who live under oppressive governments are too fearful to even consider breaking the law and perhaps don't have the chance because of societal controls.

[katiesue]

Interesting.
Tehachapi has windmills too. Half of them are defunct.

OK I'm dying. Because my best friend's dad - was totally invseted in the Techachapi windmill thing. And he's from Susanville. Egads.

[Strangler Lewis]

Certainly. I would suspect, however, that most of those who live under oppressive governments are too fearful to even consider breaking the law and perhaps don't have the chance because of societal controls.

Not sure what you mean by this unless you mean that crime in America is somehow an expression of our freedom. The rhetoric behind all anti-crime legislation in this country is certainly as harsh, punitive and, occasionally, cruel as anything you'd expect to hear in Islamic countries, China, Singapore, etc.

[scaeagles]

I disagree. We don't chop off hands for stealing. I'm not suggesting that we begin doing that, but I would guess that if every kid who stole from a convenience store was missing a hand, other kids might think twice about doing it. That person who has their hand chopped off doesn't go to prison in whatever country, their punishment is immediate and physical.

I don't think crime is necessarily an expression of freedom, but often times occurs because of lack of fear of penalty.

[Alex]

Wait, so us having more people in prison than any other country is a sign that people are able to act without fear of penalty?

Why isn't it just a sign that we put people in jail for a lot of stupid ****?

[scaeagles]

It is as well. I'm just saying that when someone steals something, they can go to jail. Elsewhere jail doesn't happen, it's caning or chopping a hand off or some other form of physical punishment. All I'm saying is that's a contributing factor. I would also regard it as stupid to put someone in prison for daring to look and spread information on democracy.

Take minor drug offenders out of prison and I wonder what the percentage is then. That's not meant to be rhetorical, i really do wonder.

[JWBear]

Take minor drug offenders out of prison and I wonder what the percentage is then. That's not meant to be rhetorical, i really do wonder.

I imagine it would reduce it by a substantial amount.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I saw one stat, not sure about its accuracy, that figured there are about 1.5 million prisoners in for non-violent drug offenses.

ETA: Nevermind, that's a total number incarcerated, not total number currently in jail.

[Gemini Cricket]

Take minor drug offenders out of prison...
Leo! Why you're nothing but a long-haired, hemp smoking, Joan Baez humping, barefooted hippie caked with the mud from the grounds of Woodstock!





:D

[Strangler Lewis]

I disagree. We don't chop off hands for stealing. I'm not suggesting that we begin doing that, but I would guess that if every kid who stole from a convenience store was missing a hand, other kids might think twice about doing it. That person who has their hand chopped off doesn't go to prison in whatever country, their punishment is immediate and physical.

Just to give equal time to white collar crime, we also don't blow out the brains of corrupt executives and government officials like they do in China.


I don't think crime is necessarily an expression of freedom, but often times occurs because of lack of fear of penalty.

I agree, but this doesn't mean that the penalty isn't there. If you're suggesting that jail isn't a harsh enough punishment, I disagree. None of my clients like being in jail or having been in jail. Nonetheless, they often have served prior jail or prison terms. They all know people in jail or prison. I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of our poor criminal class has no investment in the larger social structure, and they just can't put two and two together. I don't know that it would be meaningfully different if we started chopping off hands.

[Alex]

Local NPR morning show has Ralph Nader on and a caller just called in and talked about how they were glad that Nader was running but the caller thinks it is time for a second American Revolution and he had hoped that Ron Paul would be triggering that but since he hasn't he was glad to support Nader.

I'm just boggled trying to figure out the worldview that would result in Ron Paul and Ralph Nader both being acceptable leaders.

[scaeagles]

Leo! Why you're nothing but a long-haired, hemp smoking, Joan Baez humping, barefooted hippie caked with the mud from the grounds of Woodstock!

With the excpetion of humping Baez....

[Gemini Cricket]

With the excpetion of humping Baez....
lol!
:D

[Moonliner]

*sniff* *sniff*

Something is in the air. A lot of somethings. Perhaps too many somethings.

Lear Jets to be precise. Flying over my house. Why so many tonight?

Congress is already in session.

Is there a war breaking out somewhere?

[sleepyjeff]

*sniff* *sniff*

Something is in the air. A lot of somethings. Perhaps too many somethings.

Lear Jets to be precise. Flying over my house. Why so many tonight?

Congress is already in session.

Is there a war breaking out somewhere?

:eek:

Were there a lot of Lear Jets flying over last time we broke out in war?

[Moonliner]

:eek:

Were there a lot of Lear Jets flying over last time we broke out in war?

Pretty much every time there is a major politial crisis (or congress goes into session) you can count on that.

It's rather like the Domino effect (http://home.xnet.com/~warinner/pizzacites.html)....

[scaeagles]

Perhaps this has something to do with the Venezuela/Columbia/Ecuador situation?

[Moonliner]

Actually if I had to bet money, I'd go with primary related travel.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Interesting. Today seems to be following the super Tuesday pattern. For whatever reason, Clinton's got a big advantage among people who make up their mind on the last day (or at least tell pollsters that they're undecided until the last day). I wonder what is it about her that attracts indecisive people?

[BarTopDancer]

Interesting. Today seems to be following the super Tuesday pattern. For whatever reason, Clinton's got a big advantage among people who make up their mind on the last day (or at least tell pollsters that they're undecided until the last day). I wonder what is it about her that attracts indecisive people?

Safety. They know what to expect from her [based upon the last time a Clinton was in the White House].

[Not Afraid]

I think it's more about doubt. I know that's what did it for me.

[BDBopper]

don't think anyone really cares but...

:cheers: to you Mike Huckabee. It was my honor and pleasure to fight for you through the past seven months. It was a great fight and I don't regret at all being along for the ride despite what turned out to be a bitter end. I am very proud of the effort that we put forth but I am even prouder of the candidate that we supported in you and the clean campaign that you ran. I look forward to 2012 when we do it all over again but with a much more successful outcome.

[Alex]

I do find it interesting how expectations change interpretation. Two weeks ago, when discussing Ohio and Texas the tone was that Clinton was well ahead, could Obama catch up and make it close, etc., etc.

By the time the night rolls around everybody has convinced themselves he'll win them both and therefore not winning is a huge setback. Somehow this becomes a story of Obama having lost his appeal in Ohio when in reality the result in Ohio isn't all that different from the way its been polling for a while. And even being close in Texas would be a huge story if viewed from the story line of two weeks ago.

Oh well, I was mostly just hoping that after tonight I'd be able to ignore the presidential race until the conventions.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yeah, the reality is that she's not going to be able to catch him on pledged delegates. He will go into the convention with the lead. So she's still got an uphill battle to convince super delegates or to get people to vote against their pledge.

I've seen a couple people theorize that she's going to start getting pressure form the party to drop out to avoid a street battle for delegates.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I think it's more about doubt. I know that's what did it for me.

My thought as well.

[wendybeth]

I was hoping it would be a knockout so we could finish tearing each other up and go after the other side. I must say that as things stand now, I really don't think I could in good conscience vote for Hillary, so if she gets nominated I may sit out my first Presidential election ever. My husband and MIL feel the same way. I hope Richardson and the other super-delegates go the way I think they might.

[scaeagles]

Me? I'm hoping for a huge fight for months between Obama and Clinton so they keep spending money to beat each other. Now that McCain has the Rep nomination officially, he can continue to build up funds (but wait! Didn't campaign finance reform eliminate money from politics???? Sigh.....still feel like I have to take a shower supporting McCain.) for the big fight.

[3894]

:cheers: to you Mike Huckabee.

That's just lemonade in that glass, right, Brother BDBopper?

Signed,
A Nice Quaker Lady

[Snowflake]

Condolences, BDB. You fought the good fight.

That was no Obamarama last night. I do not think it is a change in momentum and I think the spin on Ohio being the state that seals the nomination for the winner in the primary is hooey. Hooey for the last 100 or so years, but still hooey to me!

I'm totally on the fence about November if Hillary wins the nomniation. I cannot, in good conscience, not cast a vote. One vote less from me would mean one more vote for McCain and I cannot in all good conscience place a vote in his column.

Sigh, no matter how much things change, they always stay the same?

[scaeagles]

Vote Nadar.

[BDBopper]

That's just lemonade in that glass, right, Brother BDBopper?

Signed,
A Nice Quaker Lady

Actually it's good ole Sweet Tea...a southern staple!

[mousepod]

Vote Nadar.

Nader. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

[wendybeth]

Rumors abound that should Clinton win, she'll offer the VP spot to Obama. The apoplexy potential for HateRadio hosts and bloggers is just too inviting- I would probably be able to vote that ticket.:evil:


(Picturing Scaeagles breaking out in hives now....)

[Snowflake]

Vote Nadar.

Hell will freeze over first. :p

McCain, too!

[Alex]

Rumors abound that should Clinton win, she'll offer the VP spot to Obama. The apoplexy potential for HateRadio hosts and bloggers is just too inviting- I would probably be able to vote that ticket.:evil:


(Picturing Scaeagles breaking out in hives now....)

It would be interesting if she actually offered. But she never actually would (no president wants a VP that might outshine them) and if she did he'd never accept (since it would taint his attempt to run again in 8 years).

[BDBopper]

Condolences, BDB. You fought the good fight.

Thanks! I don't feel too much better this morning but I'll be fine. I am very proud of the fight I fought. I learned a lot about the process and about myself. It has been said that losing builds character and I can attest to that one right now.

As for what I will be doing come November. I will be fulfilling my promise that I made last August. I will be (with the strokes of the trusty adapted keypad) writing in Huckabee. It might be a waste of my vote but I made a promise and promises need to be kept if I have any integrity.

Best of luck to everyone else's political fortunes. And thanks for putting up with my bias for these past several months. I appreciate it.

[Strangler Lewis]

Rumors abound that should Clinton win, she'll offer the VP spot to Obama. The apoplexy potential for HateRadio hosts and bloggers is just too inviting- I would probably be able to vote that ticket.:evil:


(Picturing Scaeagles breaking out in hives now....)

Whoever gets the Democratic nomination will pick Bill Richardson. McCain will pick Huckabee. Then, when McCain busts out in a new round of melanomas and the Democratic nominee is assassinated, it will be Richardson v. Huckabee, as I divined.

[Moonliner]

Any ticket that includes Hillary is, from my point of view, unacceptable.

However she is unlikely to win the nomination and he's unlikely to pick her as a running mate.

[scaeagles]

Obama would not pick Hillary as his VP. If he did, he'd best be looking over his shoulder because I believe she'd orchestrate his assassination. Seriously. In 8 years her chance at the Presidency would be greately reduced.

I'd LOVE a Hillary-Obama ticket, but not necessarily an Obama-Hillary ticket.

[cirquelover]

(since it would taint his attempt to run again in 8 years).


Why do you all keep saying 8 years? Is there a reason it wouldn't be in 4 years, when we do this all over again?

Sorry, I'm sure it's a stupid question but I've seen a few of you make the same reference and I just don't understand.

[Alex]

He has to assume that if he doesn't get the nomination this time it will be 8 years before he has another shot.

Because, as a Democrat he has to make his decisions on the assumption that the Democrat will win this time (and there is no real reason for that to seem obviously wrong at this time).

That means that he has to assume that in 4 years there will be an incumbent Democrat president and unless she is just a complete failure there would be no realistic chance for anybody else to win the nomination.

Yes, if Clinton gets the nomination this time and McCain wins, then he will certainly try again in four years, but I don't think he can make plans on the assumption that this will be an option available to him.

[Alex]

And that's also why this is probably Clinton's only real chance at it. She has to assume her next opportunity will be 2016. And by then she'll be 69.

Yes, McCain is 71 but we're going to soon start hearing a lot of whispering about how he is too old for the job (I agree, he is) and I think that will be even more difficult for a woman to overcome.

[cirquelover]

Thank you Alex, now it makes more sense to me. I don't know why my brain couldn't grasp that this morning.

[sleepyjeff]

Rumors abound that should Clinton win, she'll offer the VP spot to Obama.

I bet those rumors were started by the Clinton camp.....best way to win an election you're behind in is to act like you're ahead;)

Whoever gets the Democratic nomination will pick Bill Richardson. McCain will pick Huckabee. Then, when McCain busts out in a new round of melanomas and the Democratic nominee is assassinated, it will be Richardson v. Huckabee, as I divined.

I love it! (I like both of these guys better than anyone who is still currently running.

Obama would not pick Hillary as his VP. If he did, he'd best be looking over his shoulder because I believe she'd orchestrate his assassination.


Now, now....all of those mysterious deaths that seem to surround the Clintons have been explained away don't you know;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

I bet those rumors were started by the Clinton camp.....best way to win an election you're behind in is to act like you're ahead;)
It's not really a rumor, or from her "camp". She said it on the early show. She was asked about the possibility and she said it's in the realm of possibility but first we have to see who would be at the top of the ticket.

[Ghoulish Delight]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/nq/2008/nq080309.gif

[wendybeth]

Visible mojo, GD.:snap:

[scaeagles]

More reasons to doubt man made global warming.....

Climate panel on the hot seat (http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080314/COMMENTARY/702895001/home.html)

[Scrooge McSam]

More reasons to doubt man made global warming.....

Well, my goodness... what more would anyone need than a commentary by H. Sterling Burnett.

He had me when he compared Gore to Goebbels.

But I was completely convinced when he attacked Krugman in the NYT for criticizing Exxon's CEO compensation, all while failing to mention his "independent" think tank was funded by Exxon.

*yawn*

[scaeagles]

Funny.....either the methodology is flawed or it isn't regardless of the source revealing it is flawed. Don't like the info? Attack the source.

[Scrooge McSam]

No... but thanks for attempting to put words in my mouth.

I'll be glad to read the science, and regularly do.

But I laugh at anyone who would put this putz up as some authority on anything.

You wanna trust him? Pray, continue.

[scaeagles]

Hmmm....I do believe you attacked the source, and used that as a way to discount what was being presented.

[wendybeth]

Surely you're not claiming to have never attacked one's source, Scaeagles? Please don't make me do a search.;)

I am not at all above dismissing an article based on the source. Anything from O'Reilly, Coulter, Limbaugh, etc, I will automatically dismiss without even bothering to read. Since you didn't dispute Scrooge's description of the author, I would be inclined to do the same with this link as well. He sounds like more of the same, but if he adds to your comfort zone then have at it.

[Scrooge McSam]

OK... If that's the way things have to work for you, that's just fine with me.

What you charitably call "info", I see as propaganda funded by the oil companies, presented by an individual with fundamental "honesty" issues.

I don't generally trust paid liars. I attacked the paid liar you cited and feel confident using my distrust of this paid liar to discount what he has to say on the subject.

Better?

But I must say I commend you on your quest for the truth. Times past I've seen you discount criticism, since proved to be true, as untrustworthy because "the guy has a book to sell". Kudos to you for realizing and trying to correct the error of your ways, and special thanks for trying to help me do the same.

I am forever in your debt.

[SacTown Chronic]

Well Richard Clarke did have a book to sell, didn't he?

[Chernabog]

Without reading anything else in this thread, I just don't understand why everyone believes Obama and his "we're changing! I'm all about change!" line, when EVERY politician says crap like that when they aren't an incumbent. Why does everyone just automatically believe him? It's odd to me.

[PanTheMan]

Without reading anything else in this thread, I just don't understand why everyone believes Obama and his "we're changing! I'm all about change!" line, when EVERY politician says crap like that when they aren't an incumbent. Why does everyone just automatically believe him? It's odd to me.

Having voted for Edwards and not an Obamabot yet, I must say i am impressed with his Charisma. Why does everyone buy the "Change" line? Well right now we live under such a clusterf*ck of an administration, people are are willing to do anything for "Change" and Obama conveys that message the best. Lets "Hope" he delivers the goods. He will however have quite a mess to clean up as did Carter after Nixon/Ford.

[PanTheMan]

Funny.....either the methodology is flawed or it isn't regardless of the source revealing it is flawed. Don't like the info? Attack the source.\

Those who dont believe man has any impact on "Global Warming" isn't paying attention. Here in the Bay Area we can trace some of our polution we are breathing all the way to China! We all live under the same sky, like it or not.

More CO2, more retention of greenhouse gasses, more changes in the climates, and so on. We cant stop it, but we can slow it so all of us will be able to adapt much easier. Especially those in areas that will be hardest hit by flooding, stronger storms, more extreme winters and hotter summers.

[sleepyjeff]

First it was the coming Ice Age...

Then it was Global Warming...

Now it's Climate Change....

Funny thing is, I thought "Change" was supposed to be good;)

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Funny thing is, I thought "Change" was supposed to be good;)

Of course you did. :)

[sleepyjeff]

Of course you did. :)

:D

[sleepyjeff]

Well, I guess everyone is still fighting over whether or not Michigan and Florida Democrats will have their voices heard or not......

The funny thing is, Republicans in these later contests, knowing that their candidate has already been chosen, will get to have more say in who is the eventual nominee than these Dems who have been abandoned by their own party's recklessness/stupidity;)

[Prudence]

In what I suspect was a shock to both sides, the SC upheld WA's "top two" primary law. (In even more shocking news - Justice Thomas's majority opinion didn't make me want to blow chunks, although I preferred the Roberts concurrence.)

[Gemini Cricket]

Ooh. I wish I lived in Nebraska!
Scott Kleeb for Senate (http://www.scottkleeb.com/main.cfm?s=kleeb)
Political cowboy.
Hmmmm.
:)

Here he is talking. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqxEq5IVoVg)
I don't know about you but I'm in love.
:D

[Gemini Cricket]

Here's another Scott Kleeb ad. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOidnmuo9gw)
It plays more like a Brawny commercial more than anything else.
I hope he wins.

:)

[innerSpaceman]

He's already won your heart.



What else is there?:)

[JWBear]

Oh my!

[SacTown Chronic]

I actually enjoyed George Bush's visit to ESPN's Sunday Night Baseball broadcast booth last night...and I usualy hate broadcast booth guests (unless it's Rick Sutcliffe and he's drunk). Bush was funny, knowledgeable about baseball, and self-deprecating. Good stuff.

[BarTopDancer]

I wonder if he got President of the United States confused with President of MLB.

[Strangler Lewis]

I actually enjoyed George Bush's visit to ESPN's Sunday Night Baseball broadcast booth last night...and I usualy hate broadcast booth guests (unless it's Rick Sutcliffe and he's drunk). Bush was funny, knowledgeable about baseball, and self-deprecating. Good stuff.

How did he deal with the inevitable tough questions about juicing on the Rangers?

[Alex]

I believe in your right to not have your children vaccinated (http://www.pediatricnews.com/article/S0031-398X%2808%2970114-0/fulltext). But let it be known that I view this as covered by your right be a stupid ignoramus.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The realization that Ted Olson is McCain's legal adviser makes me extra scared to think of a McCain Presidency.

[Gemini Cricket]

The Pentagon at first blocked Rep. Tammy Baldwin's domestic partner from traveling on a military plane with a congressional delegation on a trip to Europe but gave in after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi intervened.Source (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gy-k72GmA9DuVJDXyMhK6xmBbSKgD8VPDLS80)
Good for Pelosi.

[Alex]

Good for Pelosi but bad for Pelosi. As is pointed out, this wasn't a military rule that blocked her but a Congressional definition of who is allowed along in congressional delegations (spouses, but currently not domestic partners).

Good for Pelosi for waiving the rule this time. Bad for not just getting the rule changed.

[Gemini Cricket]

Good for Pelosi in that if the House was led by a Republican, Ms. Azar would be left at the airport, riding back home in a taxi most likely by herself.

[scaeagles]

Even I agreed with something that Pelosi said recently, which scared the crud out of me, actually. She said china should have never been awarded the Olympics, and I could not agree more. I wish our government would take an official stance on it and perhaps even boycott them all together.

[Strangler Lewis]

Well, I assume the average married Republican congressman would think, "If I don't get to bring my girlfriend, why should she get to bring hers?"

[Strangler Lewis]

The realization that Ted Olson is McCain's legal adviser makes me extra scared to think of a McCain Presidency.

Because you don't like his politics or because it looks like a cynical attachment to someone whose wife died in 9/11?

[scaeagles]

Well, I assume the average married Republican congressman would think, "If I don't get to bring my girlfriend, why should she get to bring hers?"

Or the average democrat politician might think, "I get to bring my intern along, or I can simply contact a call girl when I get there, so why not let her go?"

[Gemini Cricket]

A Republican politician may not even make it to the plane depending on how wide his stance is at the airport john...

[scaeagles]

I say we start a campaign for a minimum stall width to prevent further misunderstandings.:)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Or the average democrat politician might think, "I get to bring my intern along, or I can simply contact a call girl when I get there, so why not let her go?"
I had no idea about his wife. He was the legal council that came up with many of the interpretations that have convinced Bush he's above the law. It does not bode well for McCain reversing the direction the executive office is taking towards monarchy.

[Morrigoon]

Well, I assume the average married Republican congressman would think, "If I don't get to bring my girlfriend, why should she get to bring hers?"
Because she'd point out that it's because of them that the girlfriend hasn't been made a wife.

[Alex]

Really? Because last time I looked most members of congress with a D after their name still oppose gay marriage.

Both Obama and Clinton are on record against it.

They all say that civil unions are good enough (though apparently Congress itself doesn't recognize them for purposes of defining "family").

[Scrooge McSam]

Really? Because last time I looked most members of congress with a D after their name still oppose gay marriage.

Word

Reading above, it seems it's the average democrat and average republican that are the problem.

Or else our perception of same.

No... it's the actual politicians.

Oh, and PS, by the way...Mississippi thanks you for all the tax dollars we received. Citizens Against Government Waste said we were something like number 5 this year in funds received per capita. It's almost like that Thad Cochran can slip an earmark into a signed bill. He's just amazing, isn't he? We love the new stop signs.

You'll have to excuse me. My cheek is bleeding and if I don't stop grinding my teeth I'm gonna pop a molar.

[scaeagles]

Word


Aren't you a bit old and white to be saying "word"?

[Alex]

Just saw Obama on Hardball and they were at Westchester University and a student asked his position on gay marriage.

He quite bluntly said he was against it. But that civil unions should have all the same legal advantages as marriage. So I'd have liked to hear his explanation of the distinction but they moved on.

[Scrooge McSam]

Nah, lazy

Quicker than typing visible mojo

but none the less, guilty on both counts.

[Tom]

Lest you had forgotten about Mike Gravel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZ7t4MwCJk

[Strangler Lewis]

Okay! I said I was wrong! (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=7270939&ch=4226716&src=news)

And catch the subtle Spike Lee riff.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Lest you had forgotten about Mike Gravel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZ7t4MwCJk

Holy crikes! That is the MOST INSANE campaign video that I have ever witnessed. What the hell is he even trying to say with it? I mean, I got the obvious references to potential candidates who might be assassinated, but... beyond that... er...

[BDBopper]

So what is Mike Huckabee's next move? Well we have to wait a week to find out. His website (http://mikehuckabee.com) just went down (a day after he posted a tribute to Charlton Heston) and is now replaced with a ticker counting down to Noon Eastern April 15th with the words "Coming Soon" in bold print.

[Alex]

Assuming the date has any relevance and since the abolition of the IRS was one of his big campaign issues I'd guess it will be the announcement of some tax reform advocacy group or something similar.

[BDBopper]

Assuming the date has any relevance and since the abolition of the IRS was one of his big campaign issues I'd guess it will be the announcement of some tax reform advocacy group or something similar.

I am pretty sure that will be either it...or a part of what he is planing to do. I think what he may be doing is forming a coalition based upon what his platform was during his campaign. Well we will find out next week I suppose.

I think McCain is seriously considering him for his running mae...among others. Regardless I think (to the dismay of the GOP elites) McCain will demand Huck speak at the convention.

[Gemini Cricket]

When a grenade bounced off his chest and fell to the floor near his fellow troops, Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael Monsoor acted out of instinct.His actions didn't stem from a lack of training. His instant reaction was to protect his comrades.
The Navy says he committed a selfless act: jumping on the grenade and taking the full force of the blast.
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/08/seal.medal/index.html)
I find this story to be heartbreaking.
:(
And at the same time, I find this man to be truly heroic. And, boy, he was hot. (I know, I'm going to hell...)
:)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/artmonsoorusnavy.jpg

[innerSpaceman]

Where I will be jealous of you having the steamiest sweatiest uber-saunafied mansex with too-hot-for-hades Petty Officer Monsoor.


And if that doesn't get me admission to hell to join in the fun, how about if I poke fun at his last name that is likely how his father mispronounced the French word for Mister?

[sleepyjeff]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aJlEuFVIVRbs&refer=home

Now will this help the US dollar? After all, isn't a dollar basically 100 copper Pennies;)

[Alex]

Actually it will hurt. It costs the Mint more to make a penny (and a nickel) than they are worth. So if copper goes up, that just gets worse (though not necessarily much, pennies are only copper plated, most of their weight is zinc. It is actually the other nickel plated coins that are mostly copper.

I wish I could remember it correctly but I recently read about a guy who was doing a decent profit in melting down pre-1982 pennies for their copper but was blocked by some new regulation or law.

Maybe it is time to turn our backs on ol' William Jennings Bryan and return to the gold, silver (and copper) standard.

[Ghoulish Delight]

So thanks to TurboTax I got taxes done in an hour last night. It certainly made my life easier, but I wonder if it's a bad thing in the long run. It obscures the outrageous convoluted disaster that is U.S. tax code and actually makes things seem relatively straight forward. I fear that any chance of motivating the populace to demand serious reform will be diluted by the fact that fewer people are dealing with it hands-on.

[sleepyjeff]

So thanks to TurboTax I got taxes done in an hour last night. It certainly made my life easier, but I wonder if it's a bad thing in the long run. It obscures the outrageous convoluted disaster that is U.S. tax code and actually makes things seem relatively straight forward. I fear that any chance of motivating the populace to demand serious reform will be diluted by the fact that fewer people are dealing with it hands-on.


You make an excellent point and I totally agree.

[scaeagles]

The ultimate power is the power to tax. The people with that power are the only ones with the ability to change how that power is wielded, and it will therefore never be resolved.

[Alex]

Then why make position on taxation such a central part of your decision on who to vote for if nobody will ever change it?

[scaeagles]

No one will change the system. An over all lowering of rates can, and does frequently, happen.

I did vote Forbes in the 2000 primaries. I believe he is someone who would have made an effort to change the tax code.

[BDBopper]

Did some digging around there is another website that is directed to the countdown clock that is on the site that Mike Huckabee used for his Presidential campaign. Which gives a huge hint to what's coming when the clock hits zeros.

He is forming a coalition called Huck PAC (http://www.huckpac.com/) The Political Action Committee is already on Facebook.

[BDBopper]

The wait is over. Mike Huckabee's website has relaunched as the home for Huck PAC. Mike is going to be using his new Political Action Committee to support his party's nominee (McCain) while trying to reform it. And yes his first policy blog post was about Tax reform (the FairTax).

[BDBopper]

I am sitting here watching coverage of the Pennsylvania Primary Returns. Each network has these talking heads with their fancy maps and they are trying their very best to explain delegates and all of that. From what I can see that it is possible for Senator Clinton to win the popular vote and still get slighted in delegates because they are allocated by congressional district. However the districts that are more favorable to Democratic candidates have a higher count of delegates allocated to them.

Putting two and two together these areas that have higher delegate allocated would favor Obama. Do I have a problem with states having different amounts of delegates? No. Do I have a problem with the delegates being given out by congressional district? No. What I DO have a problem with is giving different delegates counts to different congressional distircts. If I was a Democrat in Pittsburgh my vote should carry the same weight as if I was a Democrat in Philly. We're both Democrats. It's THAT simple!

THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!! The primary system in both parties is royally screwed up! If there is anything I have taken out of this whole process it is that. I have no doubt about it. This tears it! First the states wet themselves trying to be the first to have their primary, Then the national parties penelize and disenfracnises the voters in those states. I've seen state parties (Washington's GOP and Texas Democrats) take days to count caucus ballots, Louisiana's GOP choice wins the popular vote but the party goes to the back room and gives the delegates to someone else. This process is so screwed up it is very hard to answer the question "Who wins?" Well It is very easy to figure out who the losers are and that is the American people. How sad and infuriating!

[innerSpaceman]

I can't remember when the primaries were so hotly contested. I guess since the candidate from each party usually seems so early annointed, I never paid much attention to how messed up the primary voting systems are.

If nothing else, this season has given us a glimpse into the mess that we otherwise might have missed. It may be depressing, but it's educational.






But oh do I love the irony of all those states that wet themselves trying to be first, when for the first time it turns out to be the last states that matter. Tee and Hee.

:p

[€uroMeinke]

I'm actually enjoying the fact that it looks like the Dems are going to have a convention to do what a convention is supposed to do - select a candidate!

If you want to select a candidate earlier, dump the prolonged primary and convention system and find another path, but don't complain that the process is doing is working the way it was originally designed for.

[Not Afraid]

Clinton won - or at least it's being called that way.

On to GUAM!

[BDBopper]

I'm actually enjoying the fact that it looks like the Dems are going to have a convention to do what a convention is supposed to do - select a candidate!

If you want to select a candidate earlier, dump the prolonged primary and convention system and find another path, but don't complain that the process is doing is working the way it was originally designed for.

Don't get me wrong. That's not why I am complaining. It's the system...not the net result of the system this go around.

I will admit that the Democratic process is somewhat better. The reason why is because it is a uniform system (even if it is unfair). While in the GOP, each state made up its own rules to determine how their alloted delegates would be handed out. That's even more screwed up!

[Ghoulish Delight]

I have no problem with the system. The primaries and delegate system was never intended to be the voice of the people. It was intended to help the party sort out who the best candidate would be for a general election. Their goal is to put the strongest candidate out there, and the rules, and the fact that in the end the popular vote is purely suggestion and entirely non-binding, ensure that if the party looks and says, "You know, this candidate is going to get slaughtered in a general election," they can do something about it.

[scaeagles]

I read the transcript of the 60 Minutes interview with Antonin Scalia. Those who like and dislike Scalia both should find this (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/24/60minutes/main4040290.shtml) very interesting.

It is a lengthy read.

[innerSpaceman]

Is wishing him dead tantamount to disliking him?

[scaeagles]

I would suppose that might qualify.

[JWBear]

Is wishing him dead tantamount to disliking him?

Please... Not until we get a Democrat in the White House!

[sleepyjeff]

Please... Not until we get a Democrat in the White House!

That could be another 32 years;)

[Motorboat Cruiser]

That could be another 32 years;)

Or weeks. :)

[sleepyjeff]

Or weeks. :)


Perhaps:)


http://www.presidentelectionpolls.com/2008/presidential-matchups/hillary-clinton-vs-john-mccain.html

http://www.presidentelectionpolls.com/2008/presidential-matchups/barack-obama-vs-john-mccain.html

[scaeagles]

Small boo-boo by a CNN reporter....I wish I could find a link to the audio somewhere (just heard it on the radio). She was reporting on Hillary challanging Obama to more debates, and after the sound bite of Hillary finished, apparently the CNN reporter didn't know her mic was still on and she said "skanky". A CNN reporter called Hillary Clinton skanky! BWAHAHAHA!!!!

[Moonliner]

Small boo-boo by a CNN reporter....I wish I could find a link to the audio somewhere (just heard it on the radio). She was reporting on Hillary challanging Obama to more debates, and after the sound bite of Hillary finished, apparently the CNN reporter didn't know her mic was still on and she said "skanky". A CNN reporter called Hillary Clinton skanky! BWAHAHAHA!!!!

Humm... I tried to find it for you but I'm afraid a Google search for "Hillary" and "Skank" turned up far too many entries to wade through. Sorry.

[Morrigoon]

What is McCain smoking? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24377998/) Either he's WAAAAAaaaaay off base, or he has some plan that's way too complex for simpletons like journalists to understand.

In a speech at a cancer research center here, McCain dismissed his rivals' proposals for universal health care as riddled with "inefficiency, irrationality and uncontrolled costs." He said the 47 million uninsured Americans will get coverage only when they are freed from the shackles of the current employer-dominated system.

Ending employer-based care
McCain's prescription would seek to lure workers away from their company health plans with a $5,000 family tax credit and a promise that, left to their own devices, they would be able to find cheaper insurance that is more tailored to their health-care needs and not tied to a particular job.

This looks like a recipe for disaster if you ask me. Consumerism will go up, health plan enrollment will go down, and after inflation catches up with the tax breaks, we'll all be just as badly off as we were before, only worse because our employers will no longer provide health insurance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I generally dislike required employer-provided insurance. The only benefit it carries is protection for people who the insurance providers would otherwise consider intelligible. But it really has massively inflated the cost of insurance as well as expectations for what medical coverage should look like. Anyone who's ever had to go on cobra and/or shop for their own coverage knows that employer provided plans are intensely costly and seriously overkill for most people.

[scaeagles]

I think when the market gets involved and more consumers have more control over their individual choices that it is typically a good thing.

[JWBear]

I, however, think that letting market forces control such basic needs as health care is just asking for disaster.

[scaeagles]

Why? I truly am curious and don't wish to jump to conclusions.

[Alex]

Either leave it to the free market or completely nationalize health care. Employer mandated seems like the worst of both worlds.

If something in between has to be done then individual mandates seem the better way to go. But all because of a historical accident (wage freezes during WWII) we're stuck with a method that really makes no sense (in that it puts all of your eggs in one basket: lose your job, lose your insurance. Might as well require that all investments be put in employer stock so that if your company goes tits up you score a hat trick of suck).

[innerSpaceman]

Well, since if you lose your job, you also lose your ability to pay for your insurance, I don't see why they shouldn't be linked.


I'm not saying it worked out that way, but isn't employer-based insurance supposed to benefit from the economy of scale that individually-purchased insurance could never match?

[scaeagles]

I'm not saying it worked out that way, but isn't employer-based insurance supposed to benefit from the economy of scale that individually-purchased insurance could never match?

I think that is the intent, but doesn't always work out that way. For example, my children are insured through the school my wife teaches at. There, the employee is covered as a benefit, but when adding family members, there are added costs to the employee. We have three children and pay the exact same amount as someone with six children or some with one child.

So in pricipal, it's what was intended, but the limited choices often make it more expensive than it would be otherwise. Why should someone with one child pay the same amount as someone with six?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm not saying it worked out that way, but isn't employer-based insurance supposed to benefit from the economy of scale that individually-purchased insurance could never match?

Yes and no. That's largely offset by 1) the fact that they can't refuse coverage to anyone, so the higher costs associated wite higher risk employees who would be charged higher rates individually are distributed across everyone and 2) to be sure that everyone's needs are met, the plans have a lot of overkill built in. A single man doesn't particularly need coverage that includes prenatal care, but that's what they pay for.


To answer Leo's question, while I have no doubt that a free market would result in more affordable options and I fully appreciate all of the drawbacks of any socialized situation, in the end I can't shake the feeling that it feels entirely wrong to me that a person's monetary situation dictates their access to health care. Money is a social tool, it is not a measure of the worth of someone's life.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Killing employer plans wouldn't help me; my employers don't insure me. My husband's employer insures him for employee cost of $40 a month. That's not too bad though I'm not sure what the employer pays.

I'm not insured through his work because last time I checked it was going to cost $400 a month to add me and I thought I could get it cheaper on my own. I haven't, but from what I hear it's about that expensive anyway.

I haven't been too impressed by insurance coverage so I'm not always sure it's worth it unless I have something really major come up. If you're going to charge me through the nose, please cover enough to make it worth my while. Otherwise I'm happy paying cash for my doctor and dentist. Insurance becomes worth it as we age, but I'm not there yet.

I hate our current insurance system. I'd be much happier without insurance at all, and have a scheme of health care instead. Government has to provide it in order to cover everybody; leaving people to cover themselves means poor people don't get coverage. Tax incentives? Don't help poor people who don't file or don't itemize.

[JWBear]

...in the end I can't shake the feeling that it feels entirely wrong to me that a person's monetary situation dictates their access to health care. Money is a social tool, it is not a measure of the worth of someone's life.

Exactly!

[SacTown Chronic]

Damn the economy and damn you, Bill Clinton.

[Strangler Lewis]

Money is a social tool, it is not a measure of the worth of someone's life.

If that were true, then we'd have compulsory military service and reality shows about homeless people.

[Morrigoon]

The health coverage thing is always a two-edged sword for me. On one hand, wouldn't it be great if I never had to worry about the cost of a procedure and could just go to the doctor whenever. On the other hand - HMOs suck bad enough, how much worse would it be if the government were in charge? When you have politicians deciding how much doctors make, how on earth can you expect us to get decent care.

I think the compromise would perhaps be that the government provide a certain minimal level of coverage (much like medicare) to everyone, and set up an arrangement where individual insurers compete for the business of improvements upon that coverage. There would need to be a financial incentive of some type for doctors who exclusively (or a minimum percentage that comprises the majority of their patient pool) serve the government-insured. But then doctors who wish to could accept people with increased coverage (in other words, the government plan would be like an HMO, and privately insurance would be the upgrade to a PPO).

The whole thing still scares me.

[SacTown Chronic]

I kind of like that rough outline of a plan you have there, Morrigoon. A solid crust of socialism with a tasty capitalist topping!

[Strangler Lewis]

When you have politicians deciding how much doctors make, how on earth can you expect us to get decent care.


The same way you get it when insurance companies decide how much doctors make. Hopefully, you run into a doctor who is committed to providing it. Plus, if Sicko is any indication, the doctors in socialized systems are doing fine.

The politicians also decide how much public sector lawyers make on both the prosecution and defense side. The laws still get enforced. People get defended. I've had a number of clients who have bought into the myth that their public defender had to have been incompetent, so the family pooled money they couldn't afford to hire a private attorney that took their money and did nothing.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I like that middle-ground solution, Goonie.

[Ghoulish Delight]

He's getting sh!t for it, but I for one give McCain credit for accidentally finally admitting that we're in Iraq because of oil.

[Morrigoon]

link?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Here ya go. (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/02/974014.aspx)

[innerSpaceman]

Well, it pains me to say it .. but just as his hundred years remark really wasn't saying the war or occupation would go on that long, his remark that we wouldn't fight future wars over oil was not really an admission that we are currently doing so.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Well, it pains me to say it .. but just as his hundred years remark really wasn't saying the war or occupation would go on that long, his remark that we wouldn't fight future wars over oil was not really an admission that we are currently doing so.
"that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East."

And I'm just not buying the, "Oh, I meant the FIRST Gulf War," CYA line. Who the hell, in 2008, would talk about war in the Middle East and figure that the default meaning, with no further qualification, means the war that ended 20 years ago and not the one that's ongoing and in the news every single minute of every single day. Does he really want us to believe he's that clueless?

[scaeagles]

Well, let's just say that is what he meant. Let's say for a moment (and I don't subscribe to this argument, but I'll play the game) that the current war is a war about oil.

As with Obama's comments on some issues that have been controversial, wouldn't this be an example of speaking the truth? Let's say Iraq went nuclear and used them on Iran and Saudi Arabia. The price of oil goes to, oh, about 1000/barrel destroying the world economy.

So, yeah, I think he's pulling a CYA like Obama has been pulling CYAs. I think he said what he meant and then realized he can't say it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Agreed, thus my first post on the subject. Of course, it just reveals/confirms that he was and is in favor of war for oil, which I'm not, so even though I appreciate the accidental honesty, it doesn't much change what I think of his competency to lead the country.

[3894]

Let's say for a moment (and I don't subscribe to this argument, but I'll play the game) that the current war is a war about oil.


If the Iraq war is not about oil, then what is it about? Because a whole lot of Americans truly have no idea why we are there, if it's not about oil.

[scaeagles]

My opinion on it has been stated over and over and over and over and over and over again, so restating it wouldn't be very productive.

[scaeagles]

Have to slam on Hillary for a moment. She has called for an investigation on the rapid rise of gas prices. Wow, that truly demonstrates some hard hitting plans as President.

Sheesh. It isn't hard to figure out.

Middle East instability. Weak dollar. Increased demand for oil with no increase in production by OPEC. Decreased American oil production. Limited refining capacity.

And it seems like some sort of eerie omen that the horse Hillary picked at the Derby was euthanized on the track. Along those lines, PETA is outdoing itself, saying that the jockey on that horse should be suspended from racing. I am certain there is no one who feels more sick about this than the jockey. Certainly a sad thing for that beautiful animal to have to be put down, but there was absolutely no sign that the horse had any distress whatsoever until the finish line was crossed. I don't know much about horses, but I don't think a horse with two broken ankles is going to be able to continue running because the jockey smacked his butt.

[3894]

My opinion on it has been stated over and over and over and over and over and over again, so restating it wouldn't be very productive.

Okay, scaeagles. I'll do a search.

[Moonliner]

And it seems like some sort of eerie omen that the horse Hillary picked at the Derby was euthanized on the track. Along those lines, PETA is outdoing itself, saying that the jockey on that horse should be suspended from racing. I am certain there is no one who feels more sick about this than the jockey. Certainly a sad thing for that beautiful animal to have to be put down, but there was absolutely no sign that the horse had any distress whatsoever until the finish line was crossed. I don't know much about horses, but I don't think a horse with two broken ankles is going to be able to continue running because the jockey smacked his butt.

From what I read, they are calling for an investigation with possible suspension of the Jockey if wrongdoing on his part is found.

I believe their argument is that the Jockey should have been able to detect signs of stress in the animal and might have ignored them to finish the race.

[scaeagles]

More that scares me about Obama and Hillary....

When talking about the plan to eliminate the gas tax over the summer, Hillary says she doesn't care that economists think it's a bad idea because, well, she knows better than economists.

Many economists oppose the plan and Clinton, during an interview on ABC's "This Week," demurred when asked to name one who supports it. "I'm not going to put my lot in with economists because I know if we did it right ... it would be implemented effectively," she said.

However, I like what she said about Iran.

"I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," Clinton said April 22 in an interview with ABC. "In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

But Obama doesn't like that kind of talk, apparently, which to me goes toward how naive he is when it comes to foreign policy. What should we say to Iran? If you attack Israel we'll sit down and stalk with you about it?

Obama said, "It's not the language we need right now, and I think it's language reflective of George Bush" akin to "bluster and saber rattling."

[innerSpaceman]

Talk is cheap. Saber rattling is just that. There are plenty of ways to communicate a serious threat that's not simply bluster, and that doesn't just serve to increase the level of aggression so that the threat becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

That takes a little more skill than saying you'd obliterate a nation of millions of people on national TV just to prove how "tough" you are.

[scaeagles]

In certain situations I would agree with you, but this is not one of them.

Bullies and terrorists only understand force. Ahmadinjad is interested in self preservation and certainly does not want Iran obliterated. What Iran and North Korea and Syria and the like are interested in are negotiations with other countries that will honor those agreements while they subvert and violate them.

Certain people only understand force and threats of force.

I regard it a lot like parenting. I tell my kids that if they make choice A, there will be consequence B. I let them know what my reaction will be to them doing something so they know upfront that they have a choice which will involve consequences. And yes, for my two younger ones, that choice can involve in extreme situations (gasp!) spanking. Haven't had to spank them (thankfully) in literally years, and no, they don't fear me. (not that I want this to become a discussion on spanking, but there is a certain parallel)

[Alex]

I'm curious as to why Clinton sees a 10 year window of Iran being willing to consider nuking Israel. When those 10 years are up is she saying that Iran will no longer be willing to consider that or that we'd no longer be able to obliterate them if they did? That 10 year part is just really weird.

What does, in the context of that question and answer, "obliterate" mean to you?

In the "Yes, we can" thread I did mention that I thought Obama slightly muffed that answer. The better answer would have been "Tim, of course we could obliterate Iran. We have military might to obliterate the entire world if that is what we chose to do. And if Iran were to attack Israel, whether with nuclear weapons or not, we'd act to protect and support a great ally. But if Iran uses nuclear weapons anywhere, it will not fall on us to "obliterate" them but the world will collectively turn its back on Iran and just as with the first Gulf War collectively retaliate as necessary and do whatever it takes to make sure Iran never again commits such an atrocity. And as president, rather than taking that burden entirely upon the United States I'd make sure it truly was a global response."

[scaeagles]

I'm curious as to why Clinton sees a 10 year window of Iran being willing to consider nuking Israel. When those 10 years are up is she saying that Iran will no longer be willing to consider that or that we'd no longer be able to obliterate them if they did? That 10 year part is just really weird.

Perhaps it's because she knows that she or Obama will screw up the military so much we may not be able to after that 10 year period?:evil: :D

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Perhaps it's because she knows that she or Obama will screw up the military so much we may not be able to after that 10 year period?:evil: :D

Yes, because the military is in such fine shape right now after 7+ years of Republican control.

[scaeagles]

I realize it isn't the greatest at present (and i have lots of reasons as to why I think that is, but won't go into it), which is why I posted my smilies, but I anticipate a Carter era type military decay with deep military budget cuts.

[wendybeth]

I think Iran is very much aware of what we would do should they attack Israel, not to mention what the very capable Israelies would do as well. I don't know why Hillary had to make such a strong statement based on a hypothetical situation, other than it's her usual posturing to show she has as big a set of cajones as the other boys.:rolleyes:

There really is something to be said for 'speaking softly and carrying a big stick'. I find it ironic that we are in a very similar situation as the Soviets, and we know how well that worked out for them, right?

[scaeagles]

There really is something to be said for 'speaking softly and carrying a big stick'. I find it ironic that we are in a very similar situation as the Soviets, and we know how well that worked out for them, right?

How so? I'm not sure what parallel you see, but I might just be being stupid.

Are you referring to the Soviets in Afghanistan?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oh, this wins for most pointless nontroversy of the campaigns:

Clinton campaign flips an image of a rifle on a mailer (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_mailings_gun_gaffe.html)!!! That ignorant bitch!!!!!

[Alex]

Yeah, I saw that linked on Drudge this morning. Couldn't even work up the level of caring necessary to decide the story was stupid.

[3894]

Oh, this wins for most pointless nontroversy of the campaigns:

Clinton campaign flips an image of a rifle on a mailer (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_mailings_gun_gaffe.html)!!! That ignorant bitch!!!!!

Yeah but it's part of her working-class heroine act. If that fools enough of the People, then I guess we deserve her. But geez, I hope she gets knocked out of the race tomorrow.

[JWBear]

Oh, this wins for most pointless nontroversy of the campaigns:

Clinton campaign flips an image of a rifle on a mailer (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_mailings_gun_gaffe.html)!!! That ignorant bitch!!!!!

Trivial, yes. But it may hurt her more than help. As the article mentioned, most gun enthusiasts (whom I’m assuming the mailing was aimed at) will notice the gaff. Some may look less favorably on her campaign because of it.

I do agree that any effect on her standings – in either direction – because of this ad will be trivial.

[Ghoulish Delight]

It's not a gaffe, it's graphic design. Sure, the overall message of the thing is dumb anyway, but to nitpick because the graphics department decided the layout was better with the gun facing that way? Beyond lame.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't think too many gun enthusiasts are in the Hillary camp. ;)

[Alex]

Bill Kristol generally hasn't a clue (and I say that despite agreeing with him on policy for often than not) what he is talking about but he's among several I've seen recently mentioning Bobby Jindal as a McCain running mate.

I can't decide what I think of that. It would very much be stunt casting and I can't help but wonder if picking such a young running mate (36) would counter his age problem or just exacerbate it by making people think about the fact that he would literally be twice the age of his vice president.

Also, I am not keen on having someone in either the presidency or vice presidency that I could have gone to high school with.

[Morrigoon]

Can you have a VP who is not old enough to become president?

[Alex]

No, the VP must meet the qualifications for being president. But the age requirement is 35 so Jindal qualifies.

[Morrigoon]

Ah, I always get that messed up, thinking it's 40 or 45.

[Alex]

25 for the House, 30 for Senate, 35 for president, none for Supreme Court (the president could nominate an infant if the Senate was willing to confirm).

[JWBear]

25 for the House, 30 for Senate, 35 for president, none for Supreme Court (the president could nominate an infant if the Senate was willing to confirm).

Would that be necessarily be a bad thing?

[Alex]

Depends on the infant, I imagine, and its view on whether Roe is settled law.

[Morrigoon]

Okay shmartypants... at what political level does it become necessary to reveal one's personal financials?

[JWBear]

Okay shmartypants... at what political level does it become necessary to reveal one's personal financials?

Well… I imagine that most infants wouldn’t have any financial information to reveal; unless they are well advanced enough to be considered for the Supreme Court, then that may different.

Should the parents of infant Supreme Court nominees be expected to reveal their financial information?

[Strangler Lewis]

Appointing infants and toddlers would be an invitation to multiple impeachment proceedings since federal court judges are only entitled to hold their office during periods of good behaviour.

[scaeagles]

I believe I could name some people who htink like infants that have been on the supreme court.

[innerSpaceman]

Perhaps infants would be better, when douchebags like Antonin Scalia say this week, "Get over it. It's so old by now" about critics of the Court's kingship ruling that put Bush in the White House ... as if a fundamental perversion of the Constitution in overthrowing the people's right to elect someone to the highest position in the government should be brushed aside in less time than the !RS requires us to keep our financial records.

[scaeagles]

How funny and yet ridiculous at the same time.

[wendybeth]

How so? I'm not sure what parallel you see, but I might just be being stupid.

Are you referring to the Soviets in Afghanistan?

Spending tons of money to flex their international muscles, and bankrupting themselves in the process. The location of said flexing is only added irony. Reagan was very proud of himself for basically outlasting the Soviet martial spending spree, and here we are doing it to ourselves. Our economy is the worst it's been decades, and our military is overstretched and exhausted. If any new threats should arise, I wonder how we are to deal with them? Yet another irony is the state of our National Guard: the very entity that kept GW's chicken **** ass out of Nam is now a one-way ticket to the Middle East.:rolleyes:

[Alex]

Okay shmartypants... at what political level does it become necessary to reveal one's personal financials?

Depends on what you mean by reveal. There is no requirement at any level (so far as I know) for providing the public with detailed personal financial information such as releasing tax returns. That is just something candidates are bullied into by the media, opposing candidates, and to a lesser extent the voters.

However, there are various regulations and body bylaws requiring various elected officials to make various less detailed disclosures (such as "I own between $50,000 and $500,000 in a DJIA indexed mutual fund; I own between $500,000 and $3 million in real estate, etc.). I know that congressman and senators have this requirements. I don't know if the president does (since I don't think Congress could force it on the president -- separation of powers -- it would seem to me voluntary).

That's my understanding of it, anyway.