Moussaoui Gets Life

[BarTopDancer]

Story here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060503/ap_on_re_us/moussaoui;_ylt=AnavG8nM5o55b7z30qgow00Tv5UB;_ylu=X 3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

[scaeagles]

Interesting. I was fine either way. Would have preferred the death penalty, but knowing he would have considered himself an Islamic martyr, I'm fine with him living it out in prison.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Interesting. I was fine either way. Would have preferred the death penalty, but knowing he would have considered himself an Islamic martyr, I'm fine with him living it out in prison.Death penalty for what exactly? Lying about something he had no real knowledge of in the first place? Adding a tiny shred of of information to the rather large pile of information the FBI already had and failed to do anything with?

Moussaoui was, and is, an outsider in the world of Islamic terrorism. He's a poser, a hanger on who desperately wishes he mattered more than he does. I wanted him to get life in prison not just because of the "he'd be come a martyr" thing, but because I truly believe he didn't do anything worthy of the death penalty (even if I were to theoretically support the death penalty at all, which I don't).

[scaeagles]

Surely this was precedent setting in terms of law in that he wasn't found guilty of having a direct role in 9/11. Under federal law related to terrorism, I think, all that was required was that the jury found the he was responsible for at least one death in the Sept 11 attacks, and they found that he was responsible due to his participation in the conspiracy and lying to federal investigators a few weeks before the attacks.

So....under the law, obviously, the death penalty was on the table. I'm not sure how you can say he had "no knowledge" of it.....I can't say he did. I wasn't on the jury, I didn't hear the case. However, since he was found guilty and found to be eligible for the death penalty by a jury, I'd have been fine either way.

[innerSpaceman]

Um, I believe the jury found him not to be responsible for a single death, hence the penalty not being death.


Frankly, I'm glad to see him fail at his desperate and obvious attempts at suicide-by-rogue-judicial-system.

[scaeagles]

I thought in order to be eligible for the federal death penalty he had to have been found to have responsibility. Otherwise it couldn't have been an option.

[Alex]

Even if he did exactly what he was accused of I don't agree with the theory that makes it eligible for the death penalty. I can't align the idea that inaction would ever be grounds for execution. And as you may remember, I've not a problem with capital punishment in theory.

Since I doubt he was involved to the extend he and the government claim I really don't think death would have been appropriate but would have met the twin needs of Mousaoui to feel important in ways he wasn't and the government to punish somebody for 9/11.

[scaeagles]

Since I doubt he was involved to the extend he and the government claim I really don't think death would have been appropriate but would have met the twin needs of Mousaoui to feel important in ways he wasn't and the government to punish somebody for 9/11.

It's tough for me to have a feel for how deeply he was involved. Doubting it is reasonable, but when both he and the government are saying basically the same things...

However, I can certainly agree that this is largely about wanting to feel as if some form of justice....perhaps retribution is a better word here....is coming about to someone (anyone) for 9/11.

[Gemini Cricket]

Once in prison, Moussaoui will be in lockdown for 23 hours of every day, with one hour of recreation daily. He'll spend that one hour alone, also.
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/04/moussaoui.verdict/index.html)

[scaeagles]

I suppose that's for his protection.

On a side note, I was half expecting him to insert himself in the Oklahoma City bombing....wow, that's over 10 years ago now, isn't it? Anyway, I remember one of the stories being that there was a never identified Arab looking man with McVey when he parked that truck in front of the federal building, and I wouldn't have been a bit surprised if he had claimed to be that guy.

[innerSpaceman]

I thought in order to be eligible for the federal death penalty he had to have been found to have responsibility. Otherwise it couldn't have been an option.
The death penalty is not suddenly on the table when the verdict is in. It is part and parcel of the crimes the defendant is charged with, not found guilty of. There was one point where the judge was going to take it off the table because of government witness tampering, but ultimately the prosecution was able to produce new witnesses.

All for naught, since the jury did not buy the prosecution claims that Mousssaoui was a 9/11 linchpin.

[scaeagles]

The death penalty is not suddenly on the table when the verdict is in. It is part and parcel of the crimes the defendant is charged with, not found guilty of.

Am I missing something here or not understanding what you are saying? I think I'm missing something. I realize that the death penalty is an option for sentencing at the outset, but only an option if actually found guilty of that crime. So the charge - and I guess the guilty plea involved - said that he bore some responsibility for at least one death. I know it wasn't presented as an option after the verdict (since there was no verdict with the guilty plea) was in.

I was just saying that in order for the death penalty to have been on the table at all he must have met that standard.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The death penalty is not suddenly on the table when the verdict is in. It is part and parcel of the crimes the defendant is charged with, not found guilty of. There was one point where the judge was going to take it off the table because of government witness tampering, but ultimately the prosecution was able to produce new witnesses.Not so. Moussaoui plead guilty, so there was never a trial to determine guilt. There were instead 2 phases in the court. The first was to determine if the crimes he plead guilty to were enough to warrant the death penalty as an option, and the second was, once the possible penalties were decided, to decide which penalty he'd get.

As for my feeling that he was not as involved as he and the government said...most observers of the trial (including families of 9/11 victims) were saying it through the whole trial, people who actually knew Moussaoui were saying it in testimony, and now the jurors who made the decission are saying it. I didn't see every detail, but every shred I did see pointed to someone with massive dillusions of grandeur and a government that desperately wanted to say, "If only he told us, we could have stopped it," which is a load of crap.

[Prudence]

I think the government was foolish to go for the death penalty anyhow. If they succeeded, there was risk his death would potentially have made him a martyr. If the did not succeed, they "lose." If it were my decision, I would never have sought the death penalty and made it clear that he was "too insignificant" to merit that. We're used to prosecutors seeking the highest punishment possible without necessarily expecting to get it, but in other cultures that it seems to me that might be perceived as losing face, which we are apparently supposed to be concerned about when international affairsare concerned. What was so wrong with accepting his guilty plea, sentencing him to life, and taking away his soapbox?

Anyhow, what annoys me is reporting that says "the jury was not convinced that Moussaoui deserved to die." Of course he deserves to die, and it would be really super if a chunk of frozen airplane "ice" could crush his skull during some period of transport or another, but that does't mean the government successfully proved its case on whatever specific issue the jury was considering. I think he deserves to die, but I wouldn't want to give him the satisfaction. Of course, I'm probably the only person who quibbles with this characterization of the jury, so I'll go back to refusing to acknowledge that he exists.

[Gemini Cricket]

Being alone for the rest of my life. That would be the worst punishment for me ever.

[Gemini Cricket]

U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema responded: "You came here to be a martyr and die in a big bang of glory.
"But to paraphrase the poet T.S. Eliot, instead you will die with a whimper," she said, borrowing a line from "The Hollow Men."

Source (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/04/moussaoui.verdict/index.html)
Powerful words.

[Prudence]

Yeah, the judge totally rocked.

[BarTopDancer]

Judge Brinkema used the final session of Moussaoui’s two-month trial to challenge his claim on Wednesday that the jury’s decision to spare his life meant America had “lost” — and he had won.

She said: “Mr Moussaoui, when this proceeding is over, everyone else in this room will leave to see the sun, smell the fresh air, hear the birds and associate with whomever they want. You will spend the rest of your life in a supermax prison. It’s absolutely clear who won.”

She told him: “You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory, but to paraphrase the poet T. S. Eliot, instead you will die with a whimper.” Moussaoui tried to interrupt, but she continued: “You will never get a chance to speak again and that’s an appropriate ending.”

Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2166016,00.html)

[Nephythys]

day-um.....that's incredible.

I'm glad they went with life.....it's fitting.

[innerSpaceman]

So, with all the hub-bub about witness tampering, the outbursts of the defendant, the death-or-life debate, and the every-detail-of-9/11 they tried to pin on him ... and despite the fact that he pleaded guilty ... I missed whatever shreds of evidence the prosecution had that Moussaoui was in on the 9/11 plot.

I mean, I know he was trying to learn to pilot aircraft, and that's how he got nabbed 3 weeks before the 11th. And I know he claims to be a member of al Queda, sent by Allah and bin Laden to fly planes into buildings .... but was there any evidence presented at trial to corroborate his claims of evil grandeur? Or was his confession the only evidence of his actual guilt?

[Alex]

So far as I understand without his confession the feds didn't have much to go with. Though they could certainly prove that he approved of what happened on 9/11 and would like to participate in future 9/11s.

[innerSpaceman]

If by that it's meant they could "prove" it because he said so, then they can also "prove" I'd like to kill George Bush with my own hands. 'Cause I would. And I say so.

Should I expect life in prison for this thought of mine, or will execution be the proper punishment for my wayward mind?

[Alex]

Well, if someone actually did kill Bush and then you said "I participated in the planning of that" you'd probably find yourself in some trouble.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I would hope they'd need more than my word for it ... especially if I exhibited plenty of other signs of being a delusional maniac.


Sheesh.

[Alex]

I agree. But if you're willing to stand in front of a judge and plead guilty to having done it then you'll probably end up convicted a fair amount of the time, especially if you were actually a part of the group that killed the president and part of discussions to kill the next president, and applauded the group that actually killed the president.

His hands are hardly clean, they're just not (in my opinion, a lot of people disagree) quite as dirty as he and the government say.

[innerSpaceman]

And just how, I wonder, did they prove he was a "member" of al Queda? Did he know the secret handshake?


I'm honestly curious to know what the actual evidence was, beyond his confession, if there was any. I tried paying attention to the trial in the press, but I read no mention of this aspect of the case.

[Alex]

Well, Moussaoui wasn't just some weirdo that popped up after 9/11. Keep in mind that he was already in jail on 9/11 resulting from suspicious activities at an American flight school. He'd been under surveillance by French intelligence since the mid-90s because of his radical activities. He was a previous associate of Richard Reid (the shoe bomber) and had lived in Indonesia in a house owned by a member of al Qaeda which is a home where several of the actual 9/11 hijackers had stayed for a while on their way to America.

He was wired the money from flight school from an al Qaeda financier (since captured and in U.S. custody). That same person told the Feds that he had met with Moussaoui to plan operations but ultimately it was decided not to use him for 9/11.

I don't think anybody seriously doubts the connection between Moussaoui and al Qaeda, just the connection between Moussaoui and 9/11 specifically.

[innerSpaceman]

cool beans. thanks. I still think he got a raw deal.


Nothing compared to Sammy Alarian, though.

[Not Afraid]

Moussaoui Gets A Life

[scaeagles]

Interesting new development.

Moussaoui wants a new trial (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/08/060508200348.gw57t3r2.html)

He wants to repeal his guilty plea and now claims he was not at all involved with 9/11 and in fact lied about it on the stand.

"Moussaoui wishes to withdraw his guilty plea because when he entered the plea his 'understanding of the American legal system was completely flawed'," his lawyers said in the motion.

[Not Afraid]

OK. this guy is a crackpot.

[Snowflake]

OK. this guy is a crackpot.

Gotta admire his brilliant plan to take down the US, one courtroom and Judge at a time.

[innerSpaceman]

The funny thing is ... I believe he lied about his 9/11 connection and truly feel he had little to do with the plot, except in his own mind.


Too late, idiot. You picked the wrong time and place to be insane. Rot in Jail is the best you can hope for now. Better luck next time.

[BarTopDancer]

Interesting new development.

Moussaoui wants a new trial (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/08/060508200348.gw57t3r2.html)

He wants to repeal his guilty plea and now claims he was not at all involved with 9/11 and in fact lied about it on the stand.

He thinks he is going to get the death penalty that way? :confused:

[Ghoulish Delight]

He thinks he is going to get the death penalty that way? :confused:
No, he thinks he's going to embarass the American legal system that way.

[BarTopDancer]

No, he thinks he's going to embarass the American legal system that way.

Obviously he doesn't already know that the American legal system is pretty much a joke.