Imigration Reform

[Ghoulish Delight]

Okay, I know this is already being discussed in a myriad of threads, but I think it deserves a new one at this point because this is a momentous occasion...

I full agree with Bush. *shudder*

The man simply made sense last night. All-or-nothing arguments are inane. Finding something that works to the mutual advantage of immigrants and the US is, to my mind, clearly the best option. The only thing I don't think he included (I did kinda zone out at one point, so I may have missed it) is that they need to make the process of obtaining legal citizenship for current non-US residents (I'm not talking about people who are already here illegally, but those that are still in their home country trying to get in legally) easier. It has to be more attractive to come in legally than illegally. Until that happens, there will continue to be illegal immigrants, no matter how big of a wall you build.

Otherwise, guest worker program + stricter employer penalties + tighter border control + legal but sufficiently punitive path to citizenship = a good plan.

[scaeagles]

I didn't watch it yesterday. I haven't read transcripts. I guess I am going to have to at some point.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I did laugh when he said immigrants should learn English.
"Pot, this is Kettle calling. Is Mirror handy?"

And, of course, the obligatory spectre-raising of Terrarism. Ugh. So, if this is supposed to help us control the flow of illegal immigrants (terrarists, natch) from places other than Mexico, why was the entire focus on "our Southern border?" Last I heard, the Millenium Bomber came in through Canada.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I did laugh when he said immigrants should learn English.
"Pot, this is Kettle calling. Is Mirror handy?"

And, of course, the obligatory spectre-raising of Terrarism. Ugh. So, if this is supposed to help us control the flow of illegal immigrants (terrarists, natch) from places other than Mexico, why was the entire focus on "our Southern border?" Last I heard, the Millenium Bomber came in through Canada.And the last I heard, they caught him.

85% of illegal immigration comes through our souther border. Seems to make sense that 85% of the focus is there.

[BarTopDancer]

I did laugh when he said immigrants should learn English.
"Pot, this is Kettle calling. Is Mirror handy?"

I don't get this comment. Immigrants should learn English. This is what we speak here. Bush may not be articulate and may pronounce some words incorrectly but he speaks English. :confused:

[Gn2Dlnd]

I don't get this comment.

I dislike George Bush and I like to mock him. I'm the mockerer.

[CoasterMatt]

I think instead of the National Guard, they should send Transit Cops - they don't let ANYBODY get by.

[wendybeth]

The Millenium bomber was caught only because he was an idiot. His nervous actions tipped off the border guard, otherwise he'd have got through np. (This was before 9/11, and the only things they were looking for back then were drugs). DIdn't some of the terrorists from 9/11 come down from Canada? I'd read that at least one of them were on the public dole up there.

[scaeagles]

I still don't understand why a fence is out of the realm of possiblity.

Saudi Arabia is in the process of building a high tech wall/fence along their extensive border with Iraq. The Saudis aren't really concerned with political correctness.

It is possible. In the grand scheme of the federal budget, it isn't even that expensive.

Go ahead and let the people who are here stay. Give a period of several months for them to register and get legal. Pay taxes. Pay fines. And stop the flow.

I find it amusing when I hear an argument that it can't be stopped (illegal border crossings) so we should just allow it. A high tech wall, while not impervious, sure as hell slows it down immensely.

From what I understand, the Saudi fence is (will be) 12 feet high made of material that is very difficult to cut with razor wire at the top. There is a 100 yard zone, with an identical fence on the other side. In the middle is a 10 yard wide trench going down 20 feet. There are motion detectors in the zone which activate security cameras at various nearby locations to alert border agent stations that people are trying to cross.

Sounds good (and effective) to me.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't find the wall/fence immoral...just completely pointless and a waste of time and money. These people risk their lives to cross a treacherous desert to get here. A wall or fence at the end ain't gonna make much of a difference.

As long as conditions are such that it's desireable to take the risk, people will find a way to defeat a wall or fence. It might stop a few people, but not enough to make a dent. Not when thousands are already survivng hellish desert conditions to do it. Only making legal immigration the more desireable option will stem the flow, and if you do that, the need for a wall or fence disappears. Waste of money.

[scaeagles]

The only way we make it less palatable for those coming from the south is to change the conditions in their home countries that make them want to leave. That is not within our power.

America allows more legal immigration than any other country in the world. Difficult process, yes. Allowing more of it? I'm not sure, but I'm open to it.

Illegal crossers make an effort to cross the desert because they are desperate, but also because there is nothing stopping them from trying. There is no physical barrier, and they are often led to believe that they only need to travel a few miles to safety. The fence I described? I fail to see how it would be easily breeched on a regular basis without conspirators in the border patrol assisting them.

[Alex]

The president has always been a moderate on this issue and his speech last night kept him firmly in that camp. I'm mostly on board with what he says but it will come down to some of the details before I'm sure.

Employer enforcement is key to the whole thing and requires the kind of concerted effort over time that government does not generally show itself of being capable. And of course a biometric national ID for identifying legal foreign workers would also have to be a national ID identifying citizenship. I'm not sure that when push comes to shove this will happen unless they build it into the existing Social Security cards.

I'm very much ok with a huge guest worker program but the devil is also in the details. If it is too bureaucratic it will still encourage people to the illegal route since it is easier and faster. But if it is too loose we'll just end up with the foreign ghettos that Europe has developed through their guest worker programs.

I'm ok with walls in certain areas (particularly urban and suburban) but my opposition to a single 2,000 mile wall is primarily ecological. The fact that success with the other prongs of a comprehensive will render a wall pointless is a more minor concern. I have no doubt that if we wanted to built a wall that we could easily do it.

No matter what we do, if someone still wants to get into the country without documentation they will be able to do it.

The one kind-of fib I saw in the speech was the president saying that his proposal would put current illegal immigrants at the end of the line for citizenship. This is technically true but it does not put them at the end of the line for the process of getting citizenship.

There are two lines you have to go through if you immigrate legally. First you have to get permission to come here in the first place. This can take many years. Then you're here as a legal resident with a green card and after a set number of years can begin the citizenship process.

The president's proposal puts the illegal immigrants at the end of the second line, still giving them an advantage over the people waiting in their home countries going through the first line. For example, I believe the current wait time is 8 years to get here from Hong Kong. Only after that does the citizenship process begin.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The president's proposal puts the illegal immigrants at the end of the second line, still giving them an advantage over the people waiting in their home countries going through the first line. For example, I believe the current wait time is 8 years to get here from Hong Kong. Only after that does the citizenship process begin.Yes. And that's why I included the streamlining of the legal imigration process as a necessary part of the package. It can't be easier to become a citizen by first coming in illegally.

[Not Afraid]

Okay, I know this is already being discussed in a myriad of threads, but I think it deserves a new one at this point because this is a momentous occasion...

I full agree with Bush. *shudder*

The man simply made sense last night. All-or-nothing arguments are inane. Finding something that works to the mutual advantage of immigrants and the US is, to my mind, clearly the best option. The only thing I don't think he included (I did kinda zone out at one point, so I may have missed it) is that they need to make the process of obtaining legal citizenship for current non-US residents (I'm not talking about people who are already here illegally, but those that are still in their home country trying to get in legally) easier. It has to be more attractive to come in legally than illegally. Until that happens, there will continue to be illegal immigrants, no matter how big of a wall you build.

Otherwise, guest worker program + stricter employer penalties + tighter border control + legal but sufficiently punitive path to citizenship = a good plan.

I sat in my car with my jaw on my chest because, I too, thought he made total sense. What the HELL happened?

[Stan4dSteph]

He did use the word "gonna" in his speech though. I can't support that.

[Snowflake]

I sat in my car with my jaw on my chest because, I too, thought he made total sense. What the HELL happened?

Well, just because George said it does not mean George thought it up. ;)

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Well, just because George said it does not mean George thought it up. ;)

or that he will actually implement anything.

Actually, I should reserve comment as I haven't watched or read what he said. I just didn't have the stomach for it. I should look up a transcript before I get all cynical though. From what I've read here, it actually seems somewhat rational.

[€uroMeinke]

I suppose if we built a wall, we'd just switch to Chinese illeagles since they come in shipping containers

[Ghoulish Delight]

Shoot...better build a coastline wall next.

[BarTopDancer]

I suppose if we built a wall, we'd just switch to Chinese illeagles since they come in shipping containers

Well maybe one of them can explain how come you always get hungry 30 minutes after eating Chinese food.

[Scrooge McSam]

Shoot...better build a coastline wall next.

Pfft! Sharks with laser beams... THAT's what we need!

/pinkie nail to side of mouth

[wendybeth]

We have a shark with a corndog here- would that do it?

[Drince88]

Shoot...better build a coastline wall next.
Can we start that one near me, please?!