Iraqi voting has started

[scaeagles]

Around the world, ecstatic Iraqi nationals are casting votes in their first election.

Voting will take place in Iraq on Sunday, as scheduled. Just as there were those who said that the turnover in late June to the interim Iraqi government would never happen and were proven wrong, unless something drastic happens (a definite possibility, no doubt), the naysayers on the election will be proven wrong as well.

Will it be a perfect election? No. Hell, we don't have perfect elections in the US. I have no doubt there will be violence and bloodshed. Just as there have been assassinations and other assassination attempts on the lives of interim Iraqi government officials.

I will be very interested to see what happens on Sunday in so many different ways. While I know that many are not happy that we have gone there, I can pretty much guarantee that most every Iraqi that casts a ballot will be, and every enemy of a voting populace will be disturbed that in spite of their best efforts, Iraq has had an election.

[SacTown Chronic]

I'm hoping for the best on Sunday.

Like a child borne of rape, the Iraqi elections should never have come to pass in such a foul manner. But, much like the rape itself, what is done in Iraq cannot be undone and we need to nurture, love and support the bouncing baby of democracy. Sure, the baby is premature and hooked up to life support, but it's out of the womb and there's no turning back now.

So go forth and vote, brave Iraqi citizens. The American president is calling for you to display the courage he has never shown or even known. In this case, ignore his deeds and listen to his words. Be brave. Be safe.

[Flubber]

I've already voted and I'm not even Iraqi.

[MickeyLumbo]

i tired to vote this morning... but got lost in the birth canal:rolleyes:

[Nephythys]

I would love, for once, to see that sort of rhetoric spit at the man who actually guilty of raping the country and people of Iraq.....:rolleyes:

I think it's great- I look forward to the results as well.

[Ghoulish Delight]

This election is semi-meaningless anyway. The people elected will only be there for 11 months before another election is held. They are basically there to write a constitution, and choose a small group of leaders. And on top of that, the northern Kurds (actually, any three provinces that want to group together) have the right to veto any constitution that's drafted.

I expect turnout to be anemically low, and I expect serious security issues. The terrorists have been attacking polling places already, and the polling places haven't even been announced.

But at least we can all rest assured that Taiwan is still under Chinese control.

[scaeagles]

This election is semi-meaningless anyway.

This is exactly what the spin will be in the media should it come off in a decent fashion. No offense, GD, as I think you're a smart guy, but with all the rhetoric that an election could never be held under any circumstances, i think it is quite an accomplishment that it will happen. So it happens - ah, no big deal. It doesn't mean anything.

[Ghoulish Delight]

This is exactly what the spin will be in the media should it come off in a decent fashion. No offense, GD, as I think you're a smart guy, but with all the rhetoric that an election could never be held under any circumstances, i think it is quite an accomplishment that it will happen. So it happens - ah, no big deal. It doesn't mean anything.That's exactly the spin I heard from a pro-Bush professor yesterday. "It doesn't matter if turnout is low, violence is high, and the result unrepresentative. It's all about the constitution writing process and the next election."

And I'm still not convinced an election can be held.

[scaeagles]

But at least we can all rest assured that Taiwan is still under Chinese control.

We can all look at priorities of administrations present and past and disagree with them.

By the way, I dislike the "one China" policy. Suggestions on what to do about it? We are sworn by treaty to protect them from Chinese aggression, are we not? Certainly some inconsistency there, as there has always been.

[Ghoulish Delight]

We can all look at priorities of administrations present and past and disagree with them. My point in bringing that up is demonstrating that Bush's rhetoric of freedom is a bunch crap. He's a broken record, repeating a doctrine which he has proven time and time again to not even believe. By focusing everyone on the election, and the glory of democracy, he's hoping that we will all forget about the mistakes and lies that have lead us to this point.

[Flubber]

I would love, for once, to see that sort of rhetoric spit at the man who actually guilty of raping the country and people of Iraq.....:rolleyes:

I think it's great- I look forward to the results as well.

You know there are people in Iraq who think that man is President Bush. ;)

I'm hopeful the Iraqis recognize the tremendous opportunity they have with these elections, a chance at self determination they haven't had in years (ever?), and they aren't scared away from voting. I don't entirely support the events that got them (and US) to this point but yeah, I think it's great too.

Like GD, I'm not convinced an election can be held but I'm very hopeful.

[scaeagles]

My point in bringing that up is demonstrating that Bush's rhetoric of freedom is a bunch crap.

Well, 4 years in office and 50 million people now allowed to vote in two separate countries.....doesn't sound like crap to me. Sounds like the first steps in a very long process.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ends do not justify the means. While I will be glad if Iraq turns out well, it does not absolve Bush.

[blueerica]

You know there are people in Iraq who think that man is President Bush. ;)

I'm hopeful the Iraqis recognize the tremendous opportunity they have with these elections, a chance at self determination they haven't had in years (ever?), and they aren't scared away from voting. I don't entirely support the events that got them (and US) to this point but yeah, I think it's great too.

Like GD, I'm not convinced an election can be held but I'm very hopeful.

I'm remaining hopeful, too...

Not much we can do now, anyway...

(oooh! i think this is my first political post, and it was all to say nothing in particular... Fancy that!)

[SacTown Chronic]

Well, 4 years in office and 50 million people now allowed to vote in two separate countries.

Bush didn't go into either country with the intention of spreading freedom. You're confusing reality with post-invasion spin.


Again.

[scaeagles]

To the contrary. One clearly stated point of the war on terrorism is that democracies do not attack each other and democracies do not support or sponsor terrorists, and therefore spreading democracy is the best way we can protect ourselves.

This was most definitely one pre-invasion reason for disposing of the Taliban. While certainly not at the forefront of the invasion of Iraq, it was still a reason.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Hey! Look over there! It's Osama!

Nice distraction.

[SacTown Chronic]

Hey! Look over there! It's Osama!

Has there been an elevated terror warning color-coded thingy since the election?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Here or in Iraq? That's the interesting irony. Terrorism has increased since we invaded Iraq, but everyone seems to be okay with it because it's over there not here. So we're happy with liberating them, as long as that means they become a lightning rod for terror attacks, nevermind the scores and scores of American citizens (military) that have been killed by terrorist attacks there.

[SacTown Chronic]

Terrorism has increased since we invaded Iraq, but everyone seems to be okay with it because it's over there not here.

I know a Republican who told me that Bush is a genius for drawing all the terrorists into Iraq and fighting them there. Life's precious, eh? Viva freedom!


I meant terror warnings here in America. They seemed to have stopped. I know they bumped up the color scheme for the inauguration, but that's the only post-election threat warning I can think of. I guess there's no need to scare the electorate at the moment.

[SacTown Chronic]

While certainly not at the forefront of the invasion of Iraq, it was still a reason.
It's at the forefront now, baby. Imagine that.

[NirvanaMan]

A great day indeed. One, I believe, history will smile upon most favorably. In 50 years, I wonder how many will admit to the current protests? How many now admit to protesting America's involvement in the "European problem" that was WWII? How tragic it was that we delayed our involvement for so long in that case. But that is neither here nor there...

[Ghoulish Delight]

If the lofty goals that this day represents and that Bush continues to spout like a monkey were indeed the reasons for the original action, I'd agree. But they weren't. Instead, these lofty goals are being used as a smoke screen to hide incompetance. For crying out loud, when the President flat out says that people won't be held responsible for their mistakes, something is wrong.

[NirvanaMan]

Monkeys are funny.

[Gemini Cricket]

I guess there's no need to scare the electorate at the moment.
Totally. At least, of course, until Bush does something stupid that does have sticking power in the media...

[MickeyLumbo]

I know a Republican who told me that Bush is a genius for drawing all the terrorists into Iraq and fighting them there. Life's precious, eh? Viva freedom!


I meant terror warnings here in America. They seemed to have stopped. I know they bumped up the color scheme for the inauguration, but that's the only post-election threat warning I can think of. I guess there's no need to scare the electorate at the moment.

from baghdad to mosul,75% turn-out, in spite of risking one's life to cast a ballot. consider the fact that to cast a ballot, voters dipped their finger in purple ink - a stain that insurgents could clearly see. a remarkable journey to Freedom and Liberty.

Americans should be ashamed at OUR pathetic low voter turn out we are accustomed to. the price of Freedom is very high and should not be taken for granted.

Viva la Bush!:cheers:


oh, and to make you feel better Sactown, here's some humor to start your day: [love ya]


The President, the First Lady and Dick Cheney are flying on Air Force One.


George looks at Laura, chuckles and says, "You know, I could throw a $1,000 bill out the window right now and make somebody very happy."


Laura shrugs her shoulders and says, "Well, I could throw ten $100 bills out the window and make ten people very happy."


Cheney says, "Of course, then I could throw one hundred $10 bills out the window and make a hundred people very happy."



The pilot rolls his eyes, looks at all of them and says to his co-pilot, "Such big shots back there..... hell, I could throw all of them out the window and make 56 million people very happy!"



:coffee:

[MickeyLumbo]

If the lofty goals that this day represents and that Bush continues to spout like a monkey were indeed the reasons for the original action, I'd agree. But they weren't. Instead, these lofty goals are being used as a smoke screen to hide incompetance. For crying out loud, when the President flat out says that people won't be held responsible for their mistakes, something is wrong.

note to self:
pick up new smoke screens and a pipe cleaner







:cool:

[Ghoulish Delight]

from baghdad to mosul,75% turn-out, in spite of risking one's life to cast a ballot. consider the fact that to cast a ballot, voters dipped their finger in purple ink - a stain that insurgents could clearly see. a remarkable journey to Freedom and Liberty. Of course, the Suni turnout is low, underscoring that fact that no matter what we do, the ethnic division is going to remain in force. One unrepresentative election isn't going to fix that.

And let's not forget he 35 people killed while trying to vote.

[scaeagles]

I saw Zogby interviewed today and his reports are that Sunni turnout in at 50%. Not too bad.

Regardless, turnout is good. Violence has been present, but fairly minimal. This is far from the debacle it was predicted to be. To the contrary - it has been very successful.

And a predictable pattern - I have seen some leding dems out saying "well, we knew the election itself would be successful - we were never concerned about that - it's the constitution that will cause the divisions." Predictable. First, there was no way that the interim government could take over by July 1. Then, there was no way that there could be an election in late January. now, those things don't matter - hell they were successful - it's the next thing that will be the problem. Always is.

[wendybeth]

Actually, if Sunni participation was at that number, I think that's a very good sign. Much higher than I'd have thought. All in all, I'm impressed that the people turned out like they did, and it is a signal to the insurgents that they do not enjoy the support that they think they have. The number of casualties, while high, is quite a bit less than I would have imagined, given all the posturing and threats from the terrorists. I hope they are able to pull it and keep it together, for their sakes and ours.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I saw Zogby interviewed today and his reports are that Sunni turnout in at 50%. Not too bad.

Zogby?....Hmm, I remember that name somewhere. Wait, it's coming back to me. He was the guy that said that his numbers conclusively showed Kerry would be the winner. ;)


Regardless, turnout is good. Violence has been present, but fairly minimal. This is far from the debacle it was predicted to be. To the contrary - it has been very successful.


I agree that it has gone more smoothly than I expected. As to "very successful" though? We have no way of knowing that yet.


First, there was no way that the interim government could take over by July 1. Then, there was no way that there could be an election in late January. now, those things don't matter - hell they were successful - it's the next thing that will be the problem. Always is.

First there were tons of WMD's and we knew exactly where they were. Then, there were weapons "programs" and we would find the labs. Then there was nothing. Now, those things don't matter. ... I knew that pattern looked familiar.

Bottom Line: Things could go well there, they could also erupt into a civil war. The fact is, none of us have any idea how it will turn out at this point. This is but a very small step in the process. There is still no forseeable date for when there will be a trained Iraqi force that can maintain any semblence of peace there. Calling it a success at this point is wishful thinking in the highest order.

And regardless of how successful it turns out, you will have a hard time convincing me that bombing the holy hell out a country, killing untold numbers of civilians, detaining and abusing suspects indefinitely who were never even tried nor convicted of anything, and disrupting an infrastructure that has yet to be repaired, was the best way to go about this. We got the guy we wanted to get but Americans are still dying and won't be coming home in the forseeable future. Was taking out one man really worth 1300+ American lives? Was this really our only option?

Hardly.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Predictable. First, there was no way that the interim government could take over by July 1.By what definition has the interim government "taken over"? There is no police fore to speak of. The national guard has been depleted by desertions and executions, and infiltrated by spies. They were unable to provide security for their own elections, and even with our help, 35 people died (I mean, holy crap, the targets were known, the time window was known, the methods were known, and there was still nothing that could be done about it). Bush has said he doesn't expect the new government to ask us to leave after the elections. Well, freaking duh! It's not because they love us so, it's because if we leave they know chaos will ensue.

It's not a democracy, it's an occupation. There is no evidence of a viable government in that country. The people have not stepped up in an effort to defend themselves. The citizens have by and large shown that they have no desire to put their life on the line to defend their freedom. Until I see an Iraqi military and police force step up to the plate, I will not consider it a legitimate government.

[scaeagles]

There is no evidence of a viable government in that country. The people have not stepped up in an effort to defend themselves. The citizens have by and large shown that they have no desire to put their life on the line to defend their freedom.

A series of steps. All steps that were said to have no chance of succeeding. Of course the government isn't viable yet. The invasion was less than 2 years ago. My point is that what was criticized as never having a chnance of happening step after step and day after day is happening.

Every step was supposed to have no chance of succeeding. Each step is proceeding on schedule. Those then become ignored with "well, so what???? The next step will never happen!" All too predictable.

No desire to put their lives on the line to defend their freedom? How about showing up to vote at around a 70% clip when terrorists have sworn to kill you if you do?

Another Zogby tidbit - 60% of Iraqis want freedom of religion with no strict Islamic rule.

Yeah, MBC, Zogby sure did blow the election.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The FIRST step was setting up a viable military force. They failed at step one, probably the single most important one.

[BarTopDancer]

I watched the news for the first time in close to two years tonight.

Watching this, and the turn out gives me a sense of hope. There were minimal attacks. It gives me a hope that Iraqi citizens will defy the insurgents and their threats. And that maybe one day Iraq can be a functioning country [again].

Don't read this as I changed my mind on the war, or that I believe the turn out was high, or that the election will be the end of the insurgency. I know for a fact that there was zero turn out in at least one area. I still think we handled this the wrong way and that this was Jr. finishing what daddy started. That doesn't mean I can't have a sense of hope.

[Nephythys]

I was unable to post the picture on this site - go check it out, this picture has more than a thousand words.

Iraqi Voter (http://www.lucianne.com/)

[Ghoulish Delight]

We can all look at priorities of administrations present and past and disagree with them.
Sorry to drag this back up, but I've been meaning to readdress this. We're not talking about priorities. We're talking bald face hypocricy. It's not like Bush said, "Sorry Taiwan, we'd love to help, but we're a little busy right now." No, he sided with China. This from the man who's said that wherever people are struggling for their freedom, he'd help. Gee, well, here's a prime example, and he instead does the exact opposite and tells them to screw off.

The thing is, I don't know enough about the situation to know whether he was right or wrong to do that. But that's not even the point. The point is, the man is cramming this freedom and liberty rehtoric down the American public's throat as if he's on some holy mission, and then doesn't follow through. He talks in grandiose ultimatums, but only applies them to Iraq. So what does that say? Clearly he doesn't believe the rhetoric he's spouting, else he wouldn't be having brutal dictators touring his private ranch. So to me, it just shows that he's using the rhetoric to cover his mistakes, and to cover whatever his real motives in Iraq were (which has been so shrouded in lies and double-talk that I'm oblivious to what those are, but oil and revenge are likely candidates). It probably means he doesn't give a rat's ass about the Iraqi people beyond how their plight affects his approval. So whatever the outcome in Iraq, the fact remains that Bush is a pompous blowhard out for his own interests.

[SacTown Chronic]

Oppressed citizens of non-oil producing countries do not deserve freedom. Everyone knows that, GD.

[Name]

Sorry to drag this back up, but I've been meaning to readdress this. We're not talking about priorities. We're talking bald face hypocricy. It's not like Bush said, "Sorry Taiwan, we'd love to help, but we're a little busy right now." No, he sided with China. This from the man who's said that wherever people are struggling for their freedom, he'd help. Gee, well, here's a prime example, and he instead does the exact opposite and tells them to screw off.

It probably didn't help that we trade so heavily with China and they are huge investors in many area's of the country. Gotta keep the shareholders happy.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I saw this yesterday and thought I would share. It's from the NY Times, dated September 3rd, 1967.


U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

....A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam.

[MickeyLumbo]

good work, MBC. you're a regular Woodward, you are.

by the way, when i heard the Pope was ill, i thought of you. glad you're ok!:cool:

[SacTown Chronic]

Does this mean he knows "deepthroat"?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

by the way, when i heard the Pope was ill, i thought of you. glad you're ok!:cool:

Well, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm not really the Pope. However, should the need arise, I'm ready to jump in and take over at a moments notice.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Does this mean he knows "deepthroat"?

Like you know "Matterhorn".

[MickeyLumbo]

by the way, how is Bernstein's ankle?

[MickeyLumbo]

Well, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm not really the Pope. However, should the need arise, I'm ready to jump in and take over at a moments notice.

oh Lordy, ... you'd thank me for not posting what i almost did.:eek:

[BarTopDancer]

I was unable to post the picture on this site - go check it out, this picture has more than a thousand words.

Iraqi Voter (http://www.lucianne.com/)

Umm the only pic on that page is W. I don't think he's an iraqi citizen but for all we know he created a law to allow himself to vote. He's good at doing stuff like that you know...

(and just for kicks, go read my OP about the election, I watched the news, the happy faces. Still doesn't mean I have to agree with the war or how we did it, or that it was a good idea or say that we wern't lied to)

[Ghoulish Delight]

The photo on that page changes daily.

[BarTopDancer]

The photo on that page changes daily.

I figured.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

The picture that was posted on the day I clicked was of an Iraqi woman holding up a purple finger, with a tear in her eye.

[BarTopDancer]

I saw images of that on the news. Made me have tears in my eye. Doesn't mean I changed my mind though...