First LoT book club discussion: Madame Bovary

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I finished the book today. I was wondering how everyone else is doing.

Here's what I thought. Spoilers, of course, so don't read until you're done.




I liked the writing style, the metaphors and allusions, which is why I finished it, even though I found the story very boring. Nothing happened for ages, and when it did happen, it wasn't exciting at all. I guess it's boring to read about people that are bored, then doing things that have obvious conclusions.

After reading all of Emma's dramatic inclinations, when things really did get dramatic it just seemed more of her manufactured crap. I couldn't figure out if Flaubert was writing Emma's dramatic tirades as "here is the irony due to her wishing for drama but now she really has it" or "see, even when things get serious she still acts like she's in a romance novel" or "this is how people always act in these situations". My unfamiliarity with the era/style was a hinderance, and I really don't feel like looking up an explanation.

This really wasn't my type of story - people with huge flaws who blunder their way through life and end up screwed. I can't say I enjoyed it.

The scandalous parts didn't feel fun or exciting either, even while Flaubert was telling me it was fun and exciting. I felt disconnected from the characters' experiences, merely looking in a window at the story. Leon was the only character I related to at all, and when he came back into the story he was as distant as the others. Perhaps Flaubert was too successful in his attempt to make Emma insensitive and selfish. She seemed inhuman.

I did find Homais somewhat entertaining as the humbug blowhard...but after the incident with the clubfoot that was funny no more. Yeech.

Oh, and I also found it completely unbelievable that this tiny town would not have figured out Emma's adultery and completely ostracized both her and Charles.

[Ponine]

I forgot to mention, I dropped out of this round. My library was bringing a copy in for me, and it got lost in transit. I am still w/o a copy.

[Not Afraid]

I haven't finished. I went through my regular magazine phase and am not reading again. I'm somewhere in the middle of part 2.

[SacTown Chronic]

I enjoyed the book. I think a big reason for that is that I've known two women who are so like Emma it's scary. It was good fun reading as the self-made web around Emma tightened. I didn't have much sympathy for Charles as I couldn't shake the idea that a chump as clueless as him couldn't possibly exist in the real world.

(I had hope for a brief moment -- when it seemed that he might be intentionally tormenting Emma with the apricots that Randolphe had sent over with the goodbye letter -- that Charles was more cunning than I was giving him credit for. Nope.)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I forgot to mention, I dropped out of this round. My library was bringing a copy in for me, and it got lost in transit. I am still w/o a copy.Wow. That sucks, for both you and the library.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Bah. I'm only half way through.

[€uroMeinke]

I think I'm a little over half way through - hard to tell since aI'm reading it on my cell phone, but Emmas pining over Randolphe at the moment.

I read the book long ago and have found I've mixed it together in my mind with Zola's Nana, a tale of a Parisiian Prostitute which I think I enjoyed more. Perhpas I'll finish this weekend.

[tracilicious]

Uh, I started yesterday. I had another book to read for a real life book club. I'll power through it this weekend though. I'm not reading this thread again until I finish. I thought we were waiting a month before starting a thread? Has it been a month?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Almost. 3 weeks and change.

[tracilicious]

Wow, I'm slow.

[katiesue]

I'm about halfway through. I'll get through the rest this weekend by the pool.

[€uroMeinke]

Waddaya know, there's a part three - I'm there now as of my last metro trip.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Oops, didn't realize it had been less than a month.

[Gemini Cricket]

I rented the movie...
:D

[Not Afraid]

There's a movie??? Now you tell me!

[Gemini Cricket]

Wow! Aparrently, there are several film/tv adaptations (http://www.imdb.com/find?s=tt&q=madame+bovary)...

I saw this one (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041615/).

[lashbear]

But is Neville or Harry going to die ?


...sorry, wrong book. :blush:

[Gemini Cricket]

I rented Madame Ovary by mistake the other day. Darn straight porn flicks...
:D

[Matterhorn Fan]

I'm about halfway through and haven't picked it up in about a week.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'm a bit surprised that SacTown and I are the ones who finished first in the book club. I'm not a book club person, I tells ya! :p

Anyway, I picked up Gaiman's "Anansi Boys" so I'll keep quiet until others catch up.

[Not Afraid]

I think most of us had other books to finish first before starting this one.

I'm entering part III at the moment.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I think most of us had other books to finish first before starting this one.Yeah, that's probably the main factor. I was between books and had a copy immediately on hand.

[mistyisjafo]

I'm still dragging myself thru section 2, Randolphe has just arrived.

First impressions: Based on my limited knowledge of the time I'd bet that Madame Bovary was a real scorcher in it's day. I'm assuming it's a book writen during the Romantic Era and it's a book condemning the era. Kind of a morality play to show those too deep into Romantism that even thou it's great to long for those things that they lose site of the important things around them.

I find it some what ponderous with the flowery writing but it's still interesting to get a look into the past. I hope I can power thru it and be done by the end of this week!!

[wendybeth]

Misty is spot on with her observations. I know the style of prose can be a bit annoying, but really it's a lot less florid than most of that time period. He was actually accused of being very crude because he tried to capture the way real provincials spoke, rather than portray them in the usual idealised way. (Much like Dickens did). This book is a lot more complex than I think it's being credited for here- this is a psychological examination of a small group of people representing a large part of society in the mid 1800's. I have no doubt that there were a lot of women who read this book and identified with the stifled life of Emma, although they may not have agreed with her solutions.

[€uroMeinke]

Well I just finished - afew of my first impressions

I have to say it took me a bit to get into this work - more about putting myself in context of place and period written.

I found Madame Bovery (Emma) to be entirely sympathetic - up to the middle of part three. I was rooting for her to take a lover early on. But once she took up with Leon and then grew dissatisfied with that realtionship - or was it more lifestyle? The focus on her extravagance and perhaps more so her arrogance made her character turn for me.

I suppose Falubert in this anti-romance wanted to make sure the materialism of personal accounts and indiscriminant spending was important to showcase - personally, though I found the lisings of sums owed and refinanced to probably be just as confusing as Emma found them to be - it mystifies my why anyone trusted Lheuruex, though I guess no one had a choice. But here I wonder about the Mysoginism of Flaubert, as Emma's plight over love and money seems to imply that the desire for one leads to a sort of natural prostitution.

Early on though, I had to think about how years of her life were going by and she attended but three "cultural" events before falling in with Leon. For that I forgive her boredom - not sure how I'd do rural 19th centrury France, no doubt I would have run off to Paris to drown myself in absinth in the company of my debauched brethren. Emma clearly tries everything available to her to live a satisfying life, from being the good housewife, the pious Christian, The mother, etc. - Of course the Senior Mrs. B cricizes her "reading" as the source of her dissatisfaction, but I have to think Flaubert is poking fun at such notions - His thoughts are certainly in line with Voltaires despite his characters admonisions to shun him.

The banter between Homais and the Cure (can't remember his name) I found to be an interesting comentary as each arguing science versus religion, neither really consolled or helped anyone.

Charles was a dissappointment, of course - destined to cuckuldry and his end still seemed rather melodramatic - at least by contemporary standards, all this illness due to "heartbrake" seemed a borrowed romantic device by Flaubert.

I did love the scene in the theater, where Emma and Charles interests switch once Leon enters the theater.

Anyway - those are my frist thoughts

to respond to some things above:

Oh, and I also found it completely unbelievable that this tiny town would not have figured out Emma's adultery and completely ostracized both her and Charles.

I think it was clear that many knew, the servents were helping her cover up, Lheuruex definately knew, Leon's friends joke about his inappropriate gifts. I think many, Like Charels chose to ignore what was before them.

I'm assuming it's a book writen during the Romantic Era and it's a book condemning the era. Kind of a morality play to show those too deep into Romantism that even thou it's great to long for those things that they lose site of the important things around them.

I've heard that said about the book, but I wonder about that - to me it seemed almost entirely amoral. Sure Emma casues all these problems in her life, but I don't see anyone else offering an alternative. Homais is the character that turns out to have the best luck in his life, and yet all his success seem entirely delussional - heck, he never figured out that it was his arsnic that killed Emma. But perhaps this is a zen moral tale, we are here but to suffer, happiness is an illusion, and knowledge is our downfall.

[Not Afraid]

It's so VERY difficult NOT to read these posts, but I have 70 pages to go before I can do it. It's actually getting quite good for me. I haven't been wanting to put it down.

[Prudence]

Ooops - forgot to check in. I finished, too. It's been awhile since I read something in this genre. (If anyone really liked it and wants some other suggestions, I have several others I can recommend.)

First - as a romance of that time, it was destined to end in death - that's to be expected.

One of the things I'm currently pondering is the treatment of love. Emma spent her life captured by this romantic notion of love and hoping to find it - in the church, in marriage, in a small town lover, in a big city lover - all trying to capture some romantic idiom. A

nd yet, in the end it wasn't the trite "true love was always at home". Charles was a nothing. He did what people told him he should and expected that to be enough.

So the unchecked pursuit of romance (in the broad sense) and the total lack of interest - neither leads to a good end.

[mistyisjafo]

Misty is spot on with her observations.

Wow! Thanks!! :D

Euro really hit all the good points and certainly put it down on paper better than I did. Especially Charles was a dissappointment, of course - destined to cuckuldry and his end still seemed rather melodramatic - at least by contemporary standards, all this illness due to "heartbrake" seemed a borrowed romantic device by Flaubert. That is so on target about Charles. :snap:

[€uroMeinke]

As suplement to Mdame Bovary, I'm now reading Flaubert's correspondence, from a book Wendybeth graciously left behind. I've just started but already I think I'll get a better understanding of 19th Century French provincial life.

[Stan4dSteph]

I'm not reading the book, but I am going to France in a couple of weeks. Does that count?

[€uroMeinke]

I'm not reading the book, but I am going to France in a couple of weeks. Does that count?

Only if you take a lover while pretending to have music lessons

[wendybeth]

If you look at the type of literature being put out in the mid-nineteenth century it's easy to appreciate how controversial Bovary was. The book that €uro is reading details the develpment of the book over the course of years Flaubert spent working on it, and it's interesting to see how, when and why certain parts were done as they are. (It's also interesting to see what some of his original plans were as well).

[wendybeth]

Only if you take a lover while pretending to have music lessons

She could take 'riding lessons' as well......:D

[€uroMeinke]

She could take 'riding lessons' as well......:D

Ah, yes tis always a noble to invest in a girl's... education...

[Not Afraid]

I'm finding it very interesting to read this book while keeping in mind Voltaire's Candid.

[innerSpaceman]

Was that a spontaneous photograph taken of him? Or did you mean his "Candide?"


Did they even have photographs in Voiltaire's day? Or would a spontaneous oil-painting portrait be considered candid back then?

[wendybeth]

They used to have pro portraitists who would make cameo pics of people, sometimes unbeknowngst to that person, and then give the pic to their employer. It was a good way for someone to find out if their intended was a dog, but then they relied heavily on the skill and accuracy of the artist.

[Not Afraid]

STFU - all of you.

[wendybeth]

I would reply in a similar vein had you not indicated your good taste in liking this book.:D

Shutting the **** up now.....but hurry up and finish already!

[Not Afraid]

The Tour is cutting into my reading hour.

[wendybeth]

Damned French.

[Not Afraid]

I'm down to the last gritty business (she's taken thw white stuff) but I just could't keep my eyes open last night. After my walks and feeding - and laundry, I'm going to finish it.

[Brigitte]

I'm reading it too, almost done. It's online here (http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/bovary/) with discussion of themes and such as well.

[mistyisjafo]

I finally reached Part III. Sorry this one's a slow read but I'll be done soon enough.

More importantly... What book is next?!

[Not Afraid]

I finished on THursday, but had such an eventful weekend I haven't had much time to post about it.


First of all, the 3 parts of this book are so distinct to me in their style, action and interest. Part one was difficult to get through, while part two was better and part three was damned near exciting!

I've been reading so much contemporary fiction recently that it was difficult for me to "get into" the period of French Enlightment. I probably should've given myself more historical context before reading the book, which would've increased my initial enjoyment of the work. As it was, I didn't do that until afterwards but it helped to put things in place.

I loved Part Three. I thought many of the key scenes were fantasticly written and evoked such visuals. I became one of the townspeople who knew everything that was going on, paid attention with interest, but never discussed openly what was happening in reality. As a result, I never completely identified with any of the characters, not did I actually like them (but I did understand Emma on a certain base level).

The death scene brought to mind scenes from classic gothic novels and the first "encounter" of Leon and Emma was quite humerous. There is some really fantastic writing in Part three.

Although I felt that Emma was not a very rich character, I could relate to her in certain ways. It is very tempting and easy to get caught up in romantic notions of passion and the excitement of the seduction. I could relate to her desire for that ultimate feeling of passion and ecstacy. It can be like heroin, but it is very unrealiztic to expect to stay in that state of mond for an extended period of time. Emma was an addict and, as she got what she desired, she only wanted more. More passion, more money, more attention, more more more. Not very realistic, but I've attempted the same thing at times. So, while I was frustrated with her character, I could see the unhealthyness of her situation as she drifted further and further away from reality.

Charles was someone I wanted to hit upside the head. Even before he met mma, his Mother was making me mad. He was such milch toast that it was frustrating throughout the book.

I find it very interesting that Flaubery was taken to court over the publication of this work (first as a seriel publication of a Parisian journal). From the little I know about French life of that period, what he was describing was not very unusual. What he did that ws unusual was talk about it. I think the "proper" reaction of the time was to pretend these immoral activities didn't exist not to openly discuss it. Not much different than SOP of today in certain sectors.

Interesting read. I'm very glad I read it because I wouldn't have done it on my own.

I will go back and read the comments of others now that I have finished and may comment further if I find something intriguing to comment on.

[wendybeth]

You're right, NA- the 'proper' thing at that time was to overlook such vulgarities, and certainly not write about them- not in mainstream publictions, at any rate. Flaubert's challenge was to write the anti-Romance, which I think he did to great success. Nothing like a little reality to dispel romantic notions.....

Charles was a good man, but lacked any sort of dynamic- he just sort of plods along in life and accepts good fortune and bad with the same passivity. With anyone else he would have lived an average life and died an average death; it was his misfortune to hook up with Emma. (The same goes for her). I might empathise with Emma, but I despised her for the horrible way she treated her daughter. Anyone catch how poor Charles caught the Romance bug once Emma kicked it? Obsessing over her things, wanting to build her an elaborate tomb and then finally dying of a broken heart.

The very end of the book made me laugh- Homais finally weasels his way into getting the medal. Isn't that the way life is?

[€uroMeinke]

What struck me about Charles is he seemed to show more affection for Emma in death than he ever seemed to do in life.

I was also interested in seeing how the Townsfolk all just take advantage of the situation. The Music Teacher collecting fees for services never rendered but presumed as part of the affair cover-up.

I agree that there was no one you really identified with in this tale, rather you really were playing the role of one of the voyuers of the town - in the know, but keeping discreet.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

What struck me about Charles is he seemed to show more affection for Emma in death than he ever seemed to do in life.This, to me, showed that he was just as bad as Emma was. They both constructed their own fantasy worlds to live in, and in his, he had a devoted (lovely/kind/etc) wife. Once she was dead it was far easier for him to over-dramatize her supposed qualities.

[Not Afraid]

This, to me, showed that he was just as bad as Emma was. They both constructed their own fantasy worlds to live in, and in his, he had a devoted (lovely/kind/etc) wife. Once she was dead it was far easier for him to over-dramatize her supposed qualities.


I think this was part of the point of the book - to take a look realistically at the dangers and pitfalls of romaticism. Flaubert demonstrated, through a fictionalized story, what could happen if lives were lead without a good dose or reality. His point was extreme, but I think it had the effect he desired. It certainly was an unusual take on contemporary life.

[€uroMeinke]

Once she was dead it was far easier for him to over-dramatize her supposed qualities.

But isn't this how it really is? When someone isn't around, our fantasies get to fill in the spaces - for good or bad.

But in Charles' case, it seems his need was to preserve the illusion of a happy marriage lost - to the point of paying out non-existent debts. His denial is so great one wonders if his dispair was casued so much by her betrayal, or rather her inability to be discreet. Certainly in French culture of the time, it was discretion that was valued above all, infidelity seemed an expectation or at least a commonplace enough occurance.

[tracilicious]

I didn't make it past page 50 of this book, sorry. I had a few other books to finish and I just couldn't seem to fit it in. I may never finish it. I found it quite boring.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yay, I'm done!

A lot's been said, don't know if I can cover all the ground I want to, but I'll give it a stab.

The short response is, I didn't like it. I appreciated it, but didn't like it. I enjoyed the style of the prose, and as a reactionary piece to the romanticism of the time, it's highly successful. But as entertainment, not for me.

I'd argue against labling it a "realistic" reaction to romanticism. To me, equally unrealistic as flowery romantic notions and perfect heroines overcome by the power of love is a town full of characters without a single redeeming quality. I find an entire population characters with no humanity or sympathy as uninteresting and unbelievable as characters with no flaws. It was clearly Flaubert's purpose to go to extremes in sending up the trappings of romanticism, and I was never one for extremes. So it's no surprise that I didn't enjoy it.

Like I said, I liked the writing, it was just the subjects and the characters that I disliked. It's been mentioned here how often the characters were bored through the first 3rd of the book. My dad's aunt has a saying, "Only boring people get bored." So to me, all that boredom was the result of boring characters. So it was no surprise to me that, even when stuff did start happening, stuff that should have resulted in excitement and intrigue, it remained boring, because it was happening to boring people.

[€uroMeinke]

I'm wondering, given Emma's situation, what any of you thought she should have done?

Early on I was hoping for her to take a lover, and kind of liked her fling with Randolphe. I wonder if she would have been happier learning to be the player that he was, understanding that it was all fun and games, and would some day come to an end.

I was hopeful when she hooked up with Leon, but her dissaisfaction marred that relationship - do you suppose that was inevitable? Tha t Emma was destined to never be satisfied? In which case perhaps the suicide made for a fitting finish - to at least end in drama when none was to be had?

[Ghoulish Delight]

The way she was written, happiness wasn't an option. No reallity could ever live up to her fantasy. I'll never find it, but there was a line early on that said as much. Something about "she was mistaking romance for happiness" (it was thousands of times more inciteful than that, I should have written it down).

I'm wondering, given Emma's situation, what any of you thought she should have done?Her "situation" was of her own making. She was too busy being lost in her unrealistic notions to figure out that she had as close to those notions as she'd ever get,a should ever need. A husband who doted on her, social status and a reasonable financial situation. All the relationship needed was for her to take a bit of responsibility for its health and communicate her needs to Charles, let him know that he was becoming a bit too predictable. She never made the effort. Not that he's off the hook for being a freaking door mat, but in the early stages of the marriage, he certainly couldn't be accused of not putting the effort in. If anyone one was in a "what else could they have done" situation, it was him, seeing as she made sure to pretend everything was just fine when in fact she was unhappy. She had all the input she needed to adjust her behavior for her own happiness. Not Charles, she was witholding what he needed to know from him.

[katiesue]

I may never finish it. I found it quite boring.

Whew - I thought it was just me. I made to to halfway through book three.

[wendybeth]

I don't think Emma was bored- she was more depressed than anything. Charles was boring, but quite happy with his lot in life, and why shouldn't he be? Beautiful wife, respect of the town that he really didn't deserve, and a mommy who loved her boy to the point of suffocation. Early on Flaubert illustrates the expectations a girl had in life, particularily one who reads, and Emma was disappointed with reality. The provincial life and attitude has been portrayed many times in print and on film, and it is boring- so much so that people create their own drama just to escape the damned ennui. I think perhaps we're so jaded by soap operas and action flicks that we loose the value of subtlety and equate it with boredom. There is a reason this book is often at the top of 'best ever' lists- because it's beautifully written and to many the finest example of the novel form.

[Not Afraid]

I think perhaps we're so jaded by soap operas and action flicks that we loose the value of subtlety and equate it with boredom. There is a reason this book is often at the top of 'best ever' lists- because it's beautifully written and to many the finest example of the novel form.

I agree with you there. I find that there are many things that are of a different time aren't paced for today's audience just as I find it difficult to keep up with many contemporary forms of entertainment simply because I'm not used to the pace.

[Prudence]

I thought Emma was a very interesting character. I didn't "like" her, but how could I hate her? She had ambition past her station, and that's not something a woman really had the ability to do anything about then. Heck, just marrying the doctor would have been a coup. She wanted a different life, but all she could get was tastes - through books, a chance invitation to a ball, a wealthy lover, an up-and-coming young lover - but she couldn't ever really HAVE them.

She tried to act like she had them. She imagined dalliances with the viscount from the ball. She planned to run away with what's his name. She acted like she and Leon were married with their "home" in the hotel. All she could have were facsimiles. And they weren't real so they were never enough. She always needed more to maintain the illusion.

And it's different today - but not entirely. I have a lot more flexibility and social mobility than Emma did, but there are limits. No old money family would have tolerated me marrying into the family. There's still classism and men and women still take lovers from opposite sides, but haves are still not going to really run away with the have nots.

There's the obvious message of warning - be careful about wanting too much and not being contented with your lot in life. But it's matched with a situation in which one is particularly ill-suited to one's lot.

[wendybeth]

Great points, Prudence.:snap:

A lot of negative observations about Emma, but I felt a bit sorry for her. She was used by everyone to fulfill their own fantasies and desires, yet she is the one who is most criticised. I find that interesting.

[€uroMeinke]

I certainly started being sympathetic to emma - I mean she was trying in every way she knew how to "live a better life." And I undestand in it's time many women identified with her "trapped" situation. Which is why I asked the question above - what could she have done? I think GD pretty much described a contemporary approach, but I don't get the sense that such a thing was even in the mind of a 19th Century provincial French woman.

I think the notion of her being used is a great observation. The townfolks had no qualms indulging Emma's fantasies - as long as there was something in it for them. Cynical to be sure - but it does make Emma a bit more of a tragic character.

[Ghoulish Delight]

To me, Emma didn't have enough of her own will to feel sorry for. I never felt that she had a dream that she never got. I felt that her dream was to dream, and that's exactly what she got.

As for it being about different pace or lack of subtlety, that's not it for me. I enjoyed the prose and the story telling. I just disliked the story. For a modern parellel, with plenty of modern pace and lack of subtlety, look to Chasing Amy. Written by Kevin Smith, of whom I'm an adoring fan who will happily eat up any drivel he produces, no matter how bad I know it'll be (Clerks II, here I come!). But Chasing Amy, which has the same "no redeming qualities" schtick, I hate. I'm loathe to spend my entertainment time with characters who aren't interesting to be around.

And, for the record, I don't just hate Elizabeth. I hate every character that played more than a set-piece part.

[Not Afraid]

If I was living the life Emma ws forced to live, I'd probably be boring too. As Chris pointed out, she attend only THREE cultural event in how many years? I would kill meysef before I got into as much trouble as Emma did. I can completely see myself becoming a shopaholic living in a romantic fantasy world if I lived her life. Heck, I have been know to partake in retail therapy when depressed. So, while I found Emma boring, it was more of my own fear of such boredom that I found repulsive. I related to her, I fear what my own life would be like living in her world. The horror aspects of the story are strong to me, but her boredom is more horrible than any Gothic monster.

[wendybeth]

If I was living the life Emma ws forced to live, I'd probably be boring too. As Chris pointed out, she attend only THREE cultural event in how many years? I would kill meysef before I got into as much trouble as Emma did. I can completely see myself becoming a shopaholic living in a romantic fantasy world if I lived her life. Heck, I have been know to partake in retail therapy when depressed. So, while I found Emma boring, it was more of my own fear of such boredom that I found repulsive. I related to her, I fear what my own life would be like living in her world. The horror aspects of the story are strong to me, but her boredom is more horrible than any Gothic monster.

Exactly what she said, and the older and more experiences go through the more I can relate with Emma- would never do what she did, but certainly can relate.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I can understand and appreciate all that. I still don't like her.

Actually, I'd ammend that to say, responding a bit to Chris's take, that I don't think it mattered what kind of life she led. Even if she had ended up with a socialite who took her to society events, she'd still find a way to be unhappy about what she didn't have. Flaubert went out of his way to show that that we her nature...that even though she thought she was going after exactly what she wants, when she got there, she'd convince herself it wasn't what she wanted.