LoT Book CLub - Book 2 - Wind Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami

[Not Afraid]

The MB Bovary discussion is winding down (but not necessarily over) so I thought it was time to go with our second choice book:

Wind Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami

I think this book will provoke discussion while reading, (and I encourage that)so I'd like to propose that discussions be within spoiler tags with the approximate page numbers being announced for the spoiler.

EXAMPLE:

Page 235
can you BELIEVE that reference?

Chris and I have already read this book but will be re-reading it so it is fresh. Plus, we both LOVED it - and I hope you will too.

Let's give it a month from today (August 13th) as a goal to finish reading.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Grrr, I'm mere pages away from finishing MB, but have left it at home 2 days in a row. :mad:

[Alex]

The library was having a paperback sale a couple weeks ago and I picked up a couple dozen books (since I don't like mass market paperbacks it was good that the name was a misnomer and there were plenty of trade paperbacks to choose from).

Among the ones I picked up was Murakami's After the Quake. Maybe I'll read that and insert my rather confusing comments into your discussion.

For me, a comment on page 235 is halfway into the next book down in the stack (Plato's Protagoras and Meno) and that page is about the discussion between Socrates and Meno about what is virtue.

[Not Afraid]

After the Quake is a collection of short stories all dealing with a similar theme (guess). It will give you a flavor of Murakami and maybe you'll join us for the book.

[Matterhorn Fan]

Now's a bad time for me to start reading, but I'll see what I can do a couple weeks from now.

[lizziebith]

I just remembered the Barnes and Noble Mother's Day gift certificate in my wallet: whoo-hoo! :D

[Prudence]

I have three weeks vacation from school starting approximately 3pm on the 29th - so I'm in!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Working on American Gods by Gaiman, but I'll join in ASAP.

[Brigitte]

I've already started Wind-up - Yay! Maybe I'll keep up with this one, it's more interesting and easier to read than MB was (a physical book rather than a eBook).

[tracilicious]

Awesome, I was really hoping that we would choose this as our second book. Might I suggest though, having a new poll each month, instead of just going down the list from the first poll. We're all always reading new things and changing interests and thus will probably have new suggestions every month. Thoughts?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Awesome, I was really hoping that we would choose this as our second book. Might I suggest though, having a new poll each month, instead of just going down the list from the first poll. We're all always reading new things and changing interests and thus will probably have new suggestions every month. Thoughts?
I think a poll every other month would be good. Read the top 2, then take a new poll.

[Not Afraid]

I'm completely fine with doing additional polls. I have a selection to add to the list that wasn't on the original.

[€uroMeinke]

Heh - I like the polls, even if we don't read them together I'm pulling up some cool books for my own pleasure. Just got a copy of Cloud Atlas, which I'll probably take on after Wind up Bird Chronicle.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I have a niggling question, for those who have already read this book:

What did you think the significance was in having the young girl's letters go missing? Where do you suppose they went? The ether? The netherworld? Why did the author *not* want him to receive them? Of all the unresolved strands (and I didn't mind them being unresolved; i rather liked not knowing the fate of the sisters, etc.) But the disappeared letters left me curious.

[€uroMeinke]

I have a niggling question, for those who have already read this book:

What did you think the significance was in having the young girl's letters go missing? Where do you suppose they went? The ether? The netherworld? Why did the author *not* want him to receive them? Of all the unresolved strands (and I didn't mind them being unresolved; i rather liked not knowing the fate of the sisters, etc.) But the disappeared letters left me curious.

Well, honestly, I'll have to read this again in order to answer that properly, but:

I know at the time I wondered if that were really true, that perhaps Turo did get them but denied it, or tossed them aside, or ignored them in some way perhaps denying his affection/attraction to May. Of course, there are also a number of characters who could have intercepted them. In a way it mirrors the dissappearance of his wife, The women in Toru's life seem to keep vanishing in one way or another.

Honestly though, I'm very sketchy on the details - so I'll reserve the right to revisit this response.

[Not Afraid]

I realize that I'm getting all of the Murakami stories I've read mixed up.

[tracilicious]

I think a poll every other month would be good. Read the top 2, then take a new poll.

I'm good with this if others are. A poll every month is ok, but the voting and nominating takes a while, so every other month would eliminate a bit of the hassle.

I just read The Accidental, phenomenal writing style. Really liked it.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Well, honestly, I'll have to read this again in order to answer that properly, but:

I know at the time I wondered if that were really true, that perhaps Turo did get them but denied it, or tossed them aside, or ignored them in some way perhaps denying his affection/attraction to May. Of course, there are also a number of characters who could have intercepted them. In a way it mirrors the dissappearance of his wife, The women in Toru's life seem to keep vanishing in one way or another.

Honestly though, I'm very sketchy on the details - so I'll reserve the right to revisit this response.


I think a common theme of "dissappeared and misplaced items/people" is a good theory.

[wendybeth]

Okay, I was at the local Barnes and Noble, and maybe it was the Asian dinner we'd just eaten, but something reminded me to get this book. I couldn't remember the title and barely remembered the last name of the author, but we found it and I read the first chapter prior to leaving the store.

I liked it. I wanted to say I was bored, just to be ****ty, but I wasn't. I predict a late night reading session- my apologies to all whose hair I will be cutting in my sleep tomorrow.

[CoasterMatt]

my apologies to all whose hair I will be cutting in my sleep tomorrow.
As long as all that gets cut is hair, you'll be fine :)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oh hell, I left it at home. :mad: I've been absolutely devouring it.

[Gemini Cricket]

I've been a total traitor to the LoT Book CLub. I saw the movie of the first one and instead of reading the second one, I'm reading 'The Stand' (Unabridged) for the third time.

[Alex]

Quick question about Murakami. I'm now reading After the Quake and in the About the Author section it lists both him and Jay Rubin, the translator.

It mentions that Murakami has translated F. Scott Fitzgerald, John Irving, Truman Capote and Raymond Carver to Japanese so he must be fluent in English. Is there any particular reason he doesn't do the English translation of his own work?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Perhaps he just doesn't like/isn't good at translating the other way. I know that even when I was still close to fluent in Spanish, it would have been easier for me to translate something from Spanish into English than vice versa. Or it may be that he just doesn't want to do it for his own work. I found this quote from him:

"Sometimes a book appeals to me because I want to introduce it to Japanese readers. That's one reason. Another reason is that I want to learn something from this book, and translation is the best way. You can read every detail, every page, every word. You can learn so much. It's my teacher. I want to try many different styles. Translation is a kind of vehicle. One time you can write F. Scott Fitzgerald and one time Raymond Chandler. It's a transformation."

Seems to indicate the latter reason.

[Alex]

Yeah, I figured it was most likely something along the lines of just not wanting to do it.

But I can see being an author and being ok with someone else writing your words in another language but it would be a weird anguish to be able to read it fluently. I'd be constantly second guessing the translator in word choice and sentence construction.

But on the off chance it was something more interesting I figured I'd ask.

[Ghoulish Delight]

But I can see being an author and being ok with someone else writing your words in another language but it would be a weird anguish to be able to read it fluently. I'd be constantly second guessing the translator in word choice and sentence construction.I wouldn't be surprised if Murakami was consulted on the project.

[Alex]

Neither would I. I was just curious if there was a more interesting reason than the obvious one.

Of course, once I write something I almost never read it again so maybe he is the same way and therefore won't be annoyed by such things. But if I were consulted it would probably quickly turn into a "you sit there and right it down the way I say" dictation session.

[Not Afraid]

If you haven't already visited his websit (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/murakami/site.php?id=)e, take a look. It's a very nice site.

Plus, there are cats roaming about.

[Alex]

That's a very bad site. You tricked me.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I wouldn't be surprised if Murakami was consulted on the project.

I think Japanese may be an incredibly hard language to translate into English, because I almost always find the writing somewhat frustrating. I imagine a lot gets lost in translation, and as I read the English I find myself wishing the English itself was *better*.

It doesn't, on the whole, effect how much I enjoy or dislike the overall story, but I've such a love of individual sentences and phrases, and those are - for me - a bit few and far between in this book. I had to keep reminding myself that it's a translation, and the fault really lies with my own inability to read in other languages. Ah, well.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Really? This is the second Murakami book I've read, and I've found them to be very well translated*. Perhaps it's my subtitled anime training, but I think the translation reads very easily while still maintaining a lot of the uniquely Japanese style.



*Edited to add: Well, I suppose without learning Japanese and reading the originals, I can't vouch for them being truly well translated...but I have found them eminently readable.

[blueerica]

I think Japanese may be an incredibly hard language to translate into English, because I almost always find the writing somewhat frustrating. I imagine a lot gets lost in translation, and as I read the English I find myself wishing the English itself was *better*.

It doesn't, on the whole, effect how much I enjoy or dislike the overall story, but I've such a love of individual sentences and phrases, and those are - for me - a bit few and far between in this book. I had to keep reminding myself that it's a translation, and the fault really lies with my own inability to read in other languages. Ah, well.
I agree quite a bit with what EH is saying here, and I have found it to be quite true for myself. I'm still waiting for that bit that propels me into staying up until 5AM to read the book, as opposed to staying up until 5AM to play video games.

:)

Might happen soon, though.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Really? This is the second Murakami book I've read, and I've found them to be very well translated*. Perhaps it's my subtitled anime training, but I think the translation reads very easily while still maintaining a lot of the uniquely Japanese style.

*Edited to add: Well, I suppose without learning Japanese and reading the originals, I can't vouch for them being truly well translated...but I have found them eminently readable.

It's a matter of taste, I guess. I finsished The Wind Up Bird Chronicle loving it, but I slogged through the first 100 pages because I thought the writing style (or, rather, the English translation) sounded amateurish. That abated as I became more used to it, and became more interested/invested in the storytelling. But it took a lot of time. I had a similar problem with Battle Royale. Prefer the Manga to the book's prose, and again I think it's the translation. I wouldn't say the translations are poor, so much as Japanese-to-English translations may frustrate me on whole.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Might happen soon, though.

For me it happened somewhere between pages 300 and 400 (as discussed in my LJ). Onwards, my friend. Onwards!

[Alex]

I'll be near the Kinokuniya bookstore in San Francisco next week and I was thinking about getting a Japanese language copy of After the Quake to get Lani's opinion on the translation.

It really hard with translation to know what belongs to the translator and what belongs to the source. It can make a huge difference (I've read Crime and Punishment in three different translations and one of them is vastly superior to the other two). I enjoyed the first story in After the Quake very much but at several points the writing consisted of lengthy periods of short, simple, declarative sentences which I find a little tiring.

I assume that is carried over from the source and not a writing style introduced by Jay Rubin.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I wouldn't say the translations are poor, so much as Japanese-to-English translations may frustrate me on whole.I can understand that. It took me a while after I started watching anime in earnest to get over that feeling with the subtitles. English translated from Japanese almost seems like its own language sometimes. I guess I really am just fluent in it, 'cause these translations seem very natural to me.

[blueerica]

I should remind everyone that if there ever a woman fluent in Japanese translated to English, it's me. I'm living in the House of Japanese Translated To English. /cough

I am still slightly uncomfortable with the translation, mainly because the situations, the acts are not always plausible to me. I am not far enough into the book to say either way, though. I'll just have to plug forward.

[SacTown Chronic]

Wait, ya'll started a new book while I was away? Guess I'd better get humping.

[Alex]

I've tried a couple times to go ahead and join in on this one but haven't found a bookstore yet that has it in stock and I'm too lazy to deal with ordering it.

[SacTown Chronic]

I'll check my local used book store and my even local'er B&N. If I strike out in those two places, I promise to cut and run.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I've tried a couple times to go ahead and join in on this one but haven't found a bookstore yet that has it in stock and I'm too lazy to deal with ordering it.
Have you checked libraries? They'll even transfer it to your closest branch if they have it at one of the other branches.

[Not Afraid]

I don't read Japanese and love every single Murakami I've read (I think I'm up to 8), so I'm grateful for any translation. To me, it seems very natural as to what I've experienced visiting contemporary Japan, but I read for visuals and overall story more than I read for language - although language has a lot to do with my enjoyment. I'm just not very interesting in writing in a craft as much as storytelling as a craft.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

\I read for visuals and overall story more than I read for language - although language has a lot to do with my enjoyment. I'm just not very interesting in writing in a craft as much as storytelling as a craft.

And I'm more a "the story is IN the telling," kind of girl. I can love an idea even if I don't care too much for how it's expressed. But I will be left wishing it was expressed differently.

Take "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" and Bladerunner (the film it's based on) for example. The story, in both, is essentially the same, and I LOVE the story. But the film does a much better job at telling the story than Philip K. Dick does, IMO. That's usually not the case with most film adaptations, but I think the screenplay is superior to Dick's writing in a lot of ways.

It's like folk tales, as well. One version of the same folk tale can be a marvel, and another can be a bore. It's all in the telling.

So, though I love the story in The Wind Up Bird Chronicle, I'm sure I'd prefer reading it in its original Japanese, or reading an improved English translation. If he's written a book in English, I'd certainly be curious to read that.

[tracilicious]

Wait, ya'll started a new book while I was away? Guess I'd better get humping.

It was probably all the humping that distracted you in the first place.

[Alex]

Have you checked libraries? They'll even transfer it to your closest branch if they have it at one of the other branches.

If I'm reading a book to discuss it I prefer to be at liberty to maul and spindle it. But I did look. All five copies in the possession of the Alamade County Library are well-over due and there is a queue. The Oakland Public Library does not have it in English, though they do seem to have pretty complete collections of his books in Japanese, Russian, Korean, and Chinese.

[Not Afraid]

Ou local Borders had three or four copies tonight as well as most of his other translated books. Get thee to another bookstore - stat.

[Alex]

I've been to Borders and Barnes & Noble and the local new/used store with a more eclectic collection. B&N says they have 2 copies but they can't find them.

No biggie. It'll happen or it won't.

[Matterhorn Fan]

I got the last copy at my bookstore. But if a local book club wanted to read Kafka on the Shore, my bookstore's so ready.

[Alex]

Yeah, all of my spots had multiple copies of Kafka on the Shore as well.

[Matterhorn Fan]

Maybe it's a sign that you should read that one instead.

Or Oprah's about to choose it for her book club.

[Prudence]

Or Oprah's about to choose it for her book club.

Eeep! I hope not. The LoT selection is really engaging so far, and I'd hate to have to stop reading because another work became an Oprah selection. I refuse to read Oprah books.

[Not Afraid]

Kafka's the latest book and recently came out in paperback.

[wendybeth]

Eeep! I hope not. The LoT selection is really engaging so far, and I'd hate to have to stop reading because another work became an Oprah selection. I refuse to read Oprah books.
What she said.


I'm sure Oprah is a perfectly nice person and a wonderful judge of .....whatever; I just prefer to pick my reading material the old-fashioned way- without celebrity endorsement.

I still like the story, but I fear it is veering into an area that annoys me greatly: the gratuitous beating- over-the-head with symbolism area. I shall persevere because I really like the style of writing (even though I know it's likely diluted by translation) and the characters thus far. I was surprised by an earlier comment regarding the nature of the prose- it absolutely does not strike me in the same manner. I am used to reading translations, so I suppose I give leeway for any difficulties in that area, but I really like his writing thus far. I am sure I will buy more of his works, and that says something. I seldom purchase modern literature; I tend to either borrow or get from the library, but authors I enjoy I purchase for our own little library.

Thanks to all who recommended this book.:)

[Alex]

I was in San Francisco last Tuesday and found a copy at a bookstore. I'm currently around page 400 (of the trade paperback edition).

This is concerning two paragraphs on page 329.


The text in question is:

The first day, I spent two full hours sitting on the low brick wall that ran along the edge of the raised flower bed outside Shinjuku Station, watching the faces of the people who passed by. But the sheer numbers of people were too great, and they walked too quickly. I couldn't manage a good look at any one person's face. To make matters worse, some homeless guy came over to me after I had been there for a while and started haranguing me about something. A policeman came by several times, glaring at me. So I gave up on the busy area outside the station and decided to look for a place better suited to thee leisurely study of passersby.

I took the passageway under the tracks to the west side of the station, and after I had spent some time walking around that neighborhood, I found a small, tiled plaza outside a glass high-rise...

This isn't a comment of any particular depth but it is amazing how a small touch of familiarity can really bind you more to a book. I'm by no means a familiar of Japan but I have watched the mass of people and crazy people at that location outside of Shinjuku Station. I know exactly what "passageway under the tracks" he is talking about and have walked that path myself (though late at night, giving it somewhat more edge since it was lined with construction walls and makeshift homes for the homeless).

I'm enjoying it anyway, but with just these two paragraphs I felt the story swisting itself tighter within me.

[€uroMeinke]

I was in San Francisco last Tuesday and found a copy at a bookstore. I'm currently around page 400 (of the trade paperback edition).

This is concerning two paragraphs on page 329.


The text in question is:



This isn't a comment of any particular depth but it is amazing how a small touch of familiarity can really bind you more to a book. I'm by no means a familiar of Japan but I have watched the mass of people and crazy people at that location outside of Shinjuku Station. I know exactly what "passageway under the tracks" he is talking about and have walked that path myself (though late at night, giving it somewhat more edge since it was lined with construction walls and makeshift homes for the homeless).

I'm enjoying it anyway, but with just these two paragraphs I felt the story swisting itself tighter within me.

I didn't take the path under the tracks, but I spent a morning on that wall waiting for the Shinjuku Tower Records to open - great people watching place.

[wendybeth]

Okay, I was at the library and found myself looking for any copies of his other works. (There were none). I only do that, and very rarely, with authors I like. I'm nearly finished with the book- I read at lightspeed up until the last 1/8th of the book, and now I keep falling asleep while reading. (Not a comment on the book- just been working a lot and not sleeping well). I am not familiar with any of the locales he writes of, yet the book seems very familiar to me. I don't know why, perhaps it's the state of mind of some of the characters? I think maybe I'll know by story's end, or not. I don't really care- I'm just glad I've found something I like in the modern world.

[€uroMeinke]

Dang I just finished part one today in my re-read - I'm going to need a longer commute to catch up to you.

[Not Afraid]

Yeah, I'm reading magazines again instead of reading my book. Fits and starts. Fits and starts.

[Scrooge McSam]

I need to start this. It's been sitting on the corner of my desk for the last week.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

I need to start this. It's been sitting on the corner of my desk for the last week.

I finished, I hope we discuss it before I forget.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I started out blazing fast, slowed down a little in the last week. I'm about 2/3 through, and loving it.

[katiesue]

I'm about halfway through and really enjoying it. It's definately a book I never would have picked up on my own.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

I'm about halfway through and really enjoying it. It's definately a book I never would have picked up on my own.

I agree. I wouldn't have known about it. It was rough for me in the beginning, but then it smoothed out. I'm not sure if the translation got better, or I became more accustomed to it. Lots of stories inside of stories.

[tracilicious]

I finished this yesterday. I need a few days to digest it, but mostly I'm left with questions and no answers. The story started to disintegrate a bit for me around page 400 because there were so many loose ends. They tied together so quickly that I need to sort it out a bit. Kudos to Murakami for writing an ending that I actually like. That's rare for me.

[€uroMeinke]

I'm about 200 pages in on the re-read and have been contemplating the following:



Toru's persistent passivity - He want to see May, so he climbs into the ally and waits for her to see him, all the sex happens to him - he never initiates, even as he's confronted with Komikos infidelity, he is reluctant to accept it.

Miyamata's Fate - Knowing his destiny becomes a curse, he becomes living dead in all his future adventures

The Woman on the phone - was it Komiko? Toru insists he's good at recognizing voices, but in another scene I recall him having trouble identifying a voice.

Water and lack of water, dry wells, club soda, sacred springs, and samples from the tap.

No conclusons to discuss, but I'm wrapped in all these intertwinings

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Dread - go ahead and discuss, just use spoiler tags.

Finished! I really enjoyed this for multiple reasons.

1. Far different style from anything else I've read. I have no clue what is due to translation, what is Japanese style, and what is Murakami himself, but still, very intriguing from a style standpoint. This isn't to say I loved every moment of the style, but it definitely made me pay attention.

2. Characters. Solid, filled-in characters that react as they should (within such a crazy universe, but still). So many people and all of them real to me, no matter how wacky.

3. Settings. I can see the house with the dead end alley behind it, I can see Honda's hut, I can even see the wig factory. All places in an alien culture to me, but so skillfully drawn that I felt present.

Let's drop the number format.

I thought the story was great, once it got going. It took a while to do so. I really didn't feel enthralled with it until Kumiko disappeared. As soon as that happened my reaction was "finally, something is happening!" Up until that point it was tedious, every day life, with Kumiko coming and going. Looking back I know it's a purposeful contrast but still, I think there was a bit too much set up.

Toru's go-with-the-flow personality that Euro mentions really intrigued me as a contrast to most everything else I've ever read. He wasn't "whipped" per se, he just dealt with things in a manner that I'm not used to. Instead of scrambling around in an embarrassed fashion desperately trying to figure out which way is up (as a British character might - Neverwhere, anyone?), or turning aggressive and hacking his way through (as an American character might), he centers himself and lets these things happen to him until it comes clear where and how he should act. I wish I were more like that.

I was a bit disappointed in not having a face-to-face with Noboru Wataya at the end. Giving him a stroke from afar was anti-climactic.

I loved all the history. If I had ever known about the Chinese/Japanese stuff in WWII, I had forgotten it. It was easy to get wrapped up in the portraits of the zoo, the Siberian mine, the Mongolian desert. Beautifully painted.

More to say later, gotta go.

[Alex]

It's turned into a bit of a slog for me. Of what I've read so far and I'm just now to the part where

Toru tests that he can access Cinnamon's computer

I'm opposite CP. I thought Book 1 was the most interesting with only a slight drop off once Kumiko disappeared. However, since

Nutmget showed up

I've only been able to read a few pages at a time and I seem to have lost most of my interest.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

I've only been able to read a few pages at a time and I seem to have lost most of my interest.

I found it helped to read more that a few pages at a time to get the momentum going.


I was amazed that someone could go to a train station for 11 straight days and sit and look at faces. Imagine the patience. I can barely sit still for a few minutes. Although it is fun to go to DL, sit on a bench and watch people, but I can only do that for maybe 1/2 hour or so, certainly not a whole day, and certainly not days in a row. Could you?

[Stan4dSteph]

I just got it over the weekend. Is it too late to start?

[DreadPirateRoberts]

I just got it over the weekend. Is it too late to start?
It's never too late.

[€uroMeinke]

I was a bit disappointed in not having a face-to-face with Noboru Wataya at the end. Giving him a stroke from afar was anti-climactic.

I'm still in the re-read, but doean't that happen when he's in the well?

Seeing the Last Wave again last night is making me think more about real time versus dream time. In this story (as many others) there seems to always be this movement between the two parallel worlds.

I'm in the 300's now - so about half way through so go ahead and pick it up Steph - either you'll get sucked into the groove with us here - or you'll find it tiresome and can abandon when the discussion dies down.

[katiesue]

I'm still working on it but I have found that it's taking me much longer to read than usual. I don't know if it's the style or what. I read very quickly usually and it seems that it's just taking me longer per page than other books. Perhaps because there's a lot going on and I need to pay more attention?

[Alex]

I found it helped to read more that a few pages at a time to get the momentum going.

It's kind of a chicken and the egg thing. I only read a few pages because I quickly grow bored with it (whereas I read Book 1 in pretty much a single sitting) so without the momentum I can't easily read more than a few pages and forcing it will either reclaim the momentum or increase the boredom.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

The Woman on the phone - was it Komiko? Toru insists he's good at recognizing voices, but in another scene I recall him having trouble identifying a voice.
[/SPOILER]

Experiencing a rare instance of foresight, I immediately knew that the woman on the phone was going to be his wife. At first, I assumed it was his wife (in real time) disguising her voice, searching for something from her husband that she couldn't directly ask him for. I had no idea what it was about, but I instinctually knew that the search for the woman on the phone would be the same search as the one for his wife. That she was dialing him up from the underworld only delighted me further. I'm a sucker for a good underworld passage story, and Murakami's story is a beautiful addition to that particular genre.

I'm still having trouble opening a discussion about certain aspects of the book so am instead latching onto other people's fits and starts....

[€uroMeinke]

Well here's another musing at page 333


I'm intrgued that these underworld/dreamworld overlaps seem to have some sort of corporeal substance.

May Kasahara talks about "death" as a sort of organic object that sits within a person that can be skinned and probed.

Creta Kano's "defilement" unleashing some sort of soft tissue/tumor/afterbirth that seemed to be the casue of her pain/unfeelingness.

Toru's mark of course

But the story is filled with the characters describing thier feelings in terms of something physical growing inside them or part of them as if it is our repressed emotions/desire that form the cancers that grow in our bodies

[Ghoulish Delight]

Well here's another musing at page 333
And in many ways, these physical manifestations of feelings, as well as rememberences of the past are far more substantial than anything happening in the present to the characters. I like that view, that something isn't real, isn't solid until it's a memory. You don't really know a moment's true shape and form while it's ocurring. Only once you've experienced it, processed it, and internalized it does it become solid.

I'm on page 530, btw. The finish line is in sight.

[€uroMeinke]

And in many ways, these physical manifestations of feelings, as well as rememberences of the past are far more substantial than anything happening in the present to the characters. I like that view, that something isn't real, isn't solid until it's a memory. You don't really know a moment's true shape and form while it's ocurring. Only once you've experienced it, processed it, and internalized it does it become solid.

I'm on page 530, btw. The finish line is in sight.

Add to that Toru's desire to have everything "concrete" in this very non-concrete fluid world - perhaps it is his need to make these things physical objects so he can deal with them?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'm still in the re-read, but doean't that happen when he's in the well?Yes, and his actions in the well/hotel underworld manifest as Wataya's stroke. The confrontation in the well/hotel are the real climax but I did want to see Wataya get his ass kicked in person.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

And in many ways, these physical manifestations of feelings, as well as rememberences of the past are far more substantial than anything happening in the present to the characters. I like that view, that something isn't real, isn't solid until it's a memory. You don't really know a moment's true shape and form while it's ocurring. Only once you've experienced it, processed it, and internalized it does it become solid.



It was in the 300s when I had this reaction to the book (cross-posted from LJ):

Then, somewhere between pages 300 and 400, it began to feel like something I didn’t even know I had, a giant knot on the inside of my body that holds everything together, loosened up a bit, and hidden parts began to free-flow inside of me. Like the book’s unfolding story, something in me was being unwrapped and took in fresh air for the first time ever. It feels like I’m receiving much needed CPR and these internal experiences, given life anew, are walking about on colt legs. Or maybe it’s more like your subconscious solving a problem you’ve been having while you sleep. I cannot put into words exactly what is happening. I can’t even explain what exactly, in the book, triggered such a release. It’s as though the book is speaking directly to my subconscious and things are being sorted out without my having to put in the effort.

I've experienced the feeling of my stuffing being ripped out and put back inside of me, like I’m some kind of living taxidermy.

This feels like more like a fisherman has untied an old unreliable knot and is now fashioning something stronger and more flexible out of the same material. Meanwhile, something within the knot that was being contained is now running wild. Whatever this is, it's comprised of helium. I seem to be floating.

I seem to internaliz more than process the themes in this book. I react more by feeling than intellectualizing. It's why it's been so hard for me to discuss the book's specifics, I think.

[Not Afraid]

I'm right behind Chris in my re-read but I am noticing a lot of connections that I did not notice the first time. Although, I am afraid of trying to make things a lot more concrete than they are meant to be (interesting reaction from me since I am one that enjoys ambiguity).

There are many many references to the "other" world that have happened throughout the book so far.

page 187, Wind-up bird is missing, Komiko has left and he waunders over to May's house in a daze. May hands him some lemon water to clear his head:Ice clinked when I took it. The sound seemed to reach me froma distant wold. There were several gates conneting that world with the place where I was, and I could hear the sound because they all just happened to be opened at the moment. But this was strictky temporary. If even one of them closed the sound would no longer reach my ears.

Lt. Mamaya also think of his experience in Mongolia as reality that stops when he was thrust into the well. He dreams of slowly rotting at the bottom of the well and it seems that "sometimes it seemed to me that that was what had really happened and my life here was a dream." (pg 171)

But, to me the entire Mamiya story is so prophetic to Toru's own story and had such a profound effect on what he end up doing I find it hard to separate the two at times.

Of course, this all happens before the blur of what happens in the well.

The first reference to a well happend much earlier on in the book than I recall and I only would have noticed this on a second read. pg 28. Toru and Kumiko are arguing while seh is PMSing and she can't understand why he never takes out his bad moods on others. She says "maybe you've got this deep well inside of you and you shout into it, 'The king;s got donkey's ears!' and then everything's OK."

The man with no face? Is this his own pasivity that he doesn't listen to at certain times?

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

But, to me the entire Mamiya story is so prophetic to Toru's own story and had such a profound effect on what he end up doing I find it hard to separate the two at times.

I don't think you're meant to separate them. It was a very effective parallel.

The man with no face? Is this his own pasivity that he doesn't listen to at certain times?

I guess I thought that was supposed to be his brother in-law. I'll have to reread some of this myself!

[Not Afraid]

I don't have any idea if my own thoughts are based in any sort of reality, but I'm ok with that. ;)

Here's where I had the thoughts about the man with no face: p242, The place was filled with people straining to catch every word that Noboru Wataya spoke. I cut across the lobby and headed straight for a corridor that connected with the guest rooms. The faceless man was standing there. As I approached, he looked at me with that faceless face of his. Then, soundlessly, he moved to block my way.

"This is the wrong time," he said. "You don't belong here now."

But the deep, slashing pain from Noboru Wataya now urged me on. I reached out and pushed the faceless man aside. He wobbled like a shadow and fell away."

This is the second time (the first being when he tell off Norobu in the restaurant) Toru actually acts on something rather than just being completely passive about it.

But, the idea of the faceless man representing Norubu deserves some thought.

[€uroMeinke]

I guess I thought that was supposed to be his brother in-law. I'll have to reread some of this myself!

I think the man without a face is Toru - especially after rereading this quote from Malta (which is later repeated by Toru in his thoughts):
(page 282)
To know one's own state is not a simple matter. One cannot look directly at one's own face with one's own eyes, for example. One has no choice but to look at one's reflection in the mirror. Through experience, we come to believe that the image is correct, but that is all.

in other words, Toru's true self has no face - or at least cannot be seen by him.

[€uroMeinke]

And to combine Lisa nad my last posts - aren't they yin and Yang - when one feels good the other bad, etc.? I know there's a quote in there about that and it seems they cannot coexist in the same world.

[Nephythys]

Ok- I won't make the deadline- but I put a reserve on it at the library- should get it this weekend or sooner.

I'll watch closer for the next one-

[tracilicious]

I found it interesting that May Kasahara's other self also presented itself to him in the well, but not in the dreamworld. The first time he went in it seemed to be the other May that locked him down there. Then when the well was filling up the other May looked down at him to talk to him. Why is the other her above the well, and not inside the dreamworld?

[tracilicious]

I guess I thought that was supposed to be his brother in-law. I'll have to reread some of this myself!

As did I.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I think the man without a face is Toru - especially after rereading this quote from Malta (which is later repeated by Toru in his thoughts):
(page 282)


in other words, Toru's true self has no face - or at least cannot be seen by him.

My bad. I was confusing the faceless man with the unidentified antagonist (definitely the brother) who was keeping his wife in the room. I momentarily forgot about the faceless man. The bodiless voice of Komiko is the perfect balance to Toru's faceless counterpart in the well-world. I was confusing myself.

I didn't read this book all that long ago but I've read about five since, so I'm already forgetting important details.

[Not Afraid]

I've read so many of his books now, that I find myself getting the characters and events somewhat confused. There are definitely certain themes and "characters" that appear on many of his books. There's usually a cat or 2 as well. Of course, I'm rather fond of cats myself. ;)

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I've read so many of his books now, that I find myself getting the characters and events somewhat confused. There are definitely certain themes and "characters" that appear on many of his books. There's usually a cat or 2 as well. Of course, I'm rather fond of cats myself. ;)

I loved what the missing cat represented, and what it meant when the cat finally returned home.

[tracilicious]

My bad. I was confusing the faceless man with the unidentified antagonist (definitely the brother) who was keeping his wife in the room. I momentarily forgot about the faceless man. The bodiless voice of Komiko is the perfect balance to Toru's faceless counterpart in the well-world. I was confusing myself.


Me too. I need to reread it and I just read it!

[Not Afraid]

This is the second Murakami book I've discussed with others (other than Chris) and I find that his stories are so very rich and textured that there are literally thousands of things that can be discussed. Toru, on the surface, seems like such a passive character, but the surrounding story is so complex and layered it makes for such wonderful storytelling and great discussion.

[Ghoulish Delight]

This is the second Murakami book I've discussed with others (other than Chris) and I find that his stories are so very rich and textured that there are literally thousands of things that can be discussed. Toru, on the surface, seems like such a passive character, but the surrounding story is so complex and layered it makes for such wonderful storytelling and great discussion.I wouldn't call him passive. Just open to suggestion. Unlike so many other stories, he actually listens to the advice of others. Too many stories rely on people ignoring the obvious, or good advice to create conflict. Agreability does not necessarily equate to passive.

[tracilicious]

I wouldn't call him passive. Just open to suggestion. Unlike so many other stories, he actually listens to the advice of others. Too many stories rely on people ignoring the obvious, or good advice to create conflict. Agreability does not necessarily equate to passive.

I think it's some of both. He lets the phone lady have phone sex with him, he dresses the way Nutmeg wants, various other sexual encounters happen while he just sits back and lets them happen. He doesn't get mad at May for locking him in the well, etc. I'd definitely call him passive a lot of the time. But also agreeable.

[Not Afraid]

He may be other things in addition to passive, but I would definitely use the word passive as ONE of the adjectives I'd use in describing Toru. Although he does take action at certain times, he lets things happen to him quite a bit. I just was reading where he finds Creta naked, next to him in bed. He basicially does nothing about this situation but cover her with a quilt. Then he falls asleep again on the couch. Then they have this very odd conversation over breakfast and Toru that is completely unlike any conversation I've ever had. So very accepting to her odd story of showing up at his house sans clothes.

It's almost oas if he passivly accepts anything that happens in his life, no matter how odd, shocking or strange. He just acknowledges the fact that these things are odd or shocking but doesn't seem to actually react in any assertive way to these things.

[tracilicious]

It's almost oas if he passivly accepts anything that happens in his life, no matter how odd, shocking or strange. He just acknowledges the fact that these things are odd or shocking but doesn't seem to actually react in any assertive way to these things.


This reminds me of the convo he had with May where she says that some things are just weird because they are supposed to be weird. That if her parents put macaroni in the microwave and ravioli came out (or something like that) they would just assume that they put the wrong thing in, when really the macaroni had changed into ravioli. Toru is the opposite, it seems.

[€uroMeinke]

Page 362

Okay, I finally got to the scene I was hoping a second read would make more illucidating - the boy watching the two men bury a cat/infant body - and I still wonder:

Is that Mr. Honda as a child, his ability to hear the wind-up bird a telling of his own connection with the other world?

Or is it a moment in Toru's childhood, or Noboru's, or maybe even foreshadowing of Cinnamon's? Perhaps it is/can be of any or all of them?

Is the house the Miywaki's place, and is the act before the war which defiled the place and brought bad luck to those who lived there? Or was it the acts of war that ultimately blocked the flow of the well?

And who are the two men, one sort of like the boy's father - the other tall in a hat. Having read Kafka on the shore, I got chills thinking it was foreshadowing of Johnny Walker - especially if the body was that of a cat

[tracilicious]

Page 362

Okay, I finally got to the scene I was hoping a second read would make more illucidating - the boy watching the two men bury a cat/infant body - and I still wonder:

Is that Mr. Honda as a child, his ability to hear the wind-up bird a telling of his own connection with the other world?

Or is it a moment in Toru's childhood, or Noboru's, or maybe even foreshadowing of Cinnamon's? Perhaps it is/can be of any or all of them?

Is the house the Miywaki's place, and is the act before the war which defiled the place and brought bad luck to those who lived there? Or was it the acts of war that ultimately blocked the flow of the well?

And who are the two men, one sort of like the boy's father - the other tall in a hat. Having read Kafka on the shore, I got chills thinking it was foreshadowing of Johnny Walker - especially if the body was that of a cat

I always thought it was Cinnamon. I assumed the reason he no longer talked was because a large portion of him got stuck in that world. Thus getting back in bed and seeing that he was already there.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yeah, definitely Cinnamon. The morning muteness + the appearance of his Wind Up Bird Chronicles on the computer confirm that for me.

[Alex]

Ok, finished it today. I have to spend a bit of time processing it but I absolutely loved the first part and, and first consideration anyway, found the last act pretty lame (from the appearance of Nutmeg on). Kind of like a weaker Stephen King novel.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Ok, finished it today. I have to spend a bit of time processing it but I absolutely loved the first part and, and first consideration anyway, found the last act pretty lame (from the appearance of Nutmeg on). Kind of like a weaker Stephen King novel.Once again proving that Alex and I are the inverse of each other most of the time.Okay, I finally got to the scene I was hoping a second read would make more illucidating - the boy watching the two men bury a cat/infant body - and I still wonder:Wow, I'd forgotten about that. I had no clue who it was until GD mentioned Cinnamon. That kinda bugs me now. WTF happened there? Who were the men, what were they doing?

[Alex]

When do we get to stop talking in spoiler tags?

[Alex]

I was browsing the reader reviews of the book at Amazone to try and help me put my thoughts in order and came across this review that might be of interest. A quick search didn't turn up any other mentions of this so I don't know if it is accurate but thought the people more familiar with Murakami may have heard about it.

Link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0679775439/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-1114465-5787950?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155), don't know if it will work.

Many of the previous reviews do a great job of discussing this novel, and I will not repeat that discussion here.

But what the previous reviews do not mention is that the American publishers, Knopf, forced Murakami and his translator, Jay Rubin, to significantly abridge the original Japanese text. The casual reader would have no way of knowing this, and, indeed, I only noticed because I was reading alternating chapters of the book in English and Russian translations. Half-way through the novel, entire chapters suddenly started disappearing from the English-language text. Puzzled, I went back to the copyright page of the English-language edition, where, for the first time, I noticed the cryptic notation that the book was not only translated but also "adapted from the Japanese."

How much of the original text was "adapted" away? I don't read Japanese, but, based on a comparison with my Russian-language translation, which appears to be complete (no Russian publisher would commit such a travesty on an award-winning novel), it seems that something like 15-20% of the text has been cut. For those of you who find the English-language text of the "Wind-Up Bird Chronicle" choppy, or puzzling, or seemingly incomplete, at least some of the blame lies at the feet of the American publishers who decided, unilaterally, that American readers cannot handle a long book.

Anyway, the upshot is that if you can comfortably do so, try to read the "Wind-Up Bird Chronicle" in a non-English translation. Or, if you can't, demand that Jay Rubin's original and complete English-language translation be published.

[Alex]

Didn't search hard enough. Here (http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/murakami/desktop_4.html) is an email exchange between Jay Rubin and some other people (the whole thing is interesting but I linked to relevant email).

Knopf did require a cut of about 25,000 words for the hardcover edition which has been carried over into the later editions. Murakami suggested a certain number of small changes but overall it was done by Rubin. Interestingly, for the Japanese paperback version Murakami included the small excisions he recommended to Rubin (but not the big ones made by Rubin) so in Japan the hardcover and paperback versions are a bit different.

To further amend my remarks above the WWII stuff, which is mostly in the final act is incredible and within the final 15 pages there is a page and a half that is the best writing I've read in a very long time. As a technical matter of writing the last act of the book is just as good -- and at times better -- than the first part but by then I no longer much cared about the larger story being told.

[€uroMeinke]

Didn't search hard enough. Here (http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/murakami/desktop_4.html) is an email exchange between Jay Rubin and some other people (the whole thing is interesting but I linked to relevant email).

I thought we covered that early on with the wikipedia entry here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wind-Up_Bird_Chronicle). But that may have been confined to a discussionI had in another Murakami board. Those who know assure me the changes are not that dramatic and were all done with the approval and oversite of Murakami. (also the cuts are supposedly not as drastic as the publisher requested). Still it sucks and I'd rather have the complete work for my reading - but until I learn Japanese it'll have to do.

[wendybeth]

When do we get to stop talking in spoiler tags?

Nevah!

Welcome to Spoiler Tag Hell. A cat will be along shortly to show you to your room.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm assuming at the spoiler tags will be dropped at the end of this week, which will make a full 4 weeks.

[wendybeth]

I feel at a bit of a disadvantage in that this is the first Murukami book I've read, but I am impressed enough to be okay with that. Better than okay. Sometimes, it seems like everything has already been said, done, exploited to death and there is nothing new in lit. I'm very happy to have (hopefully) discovered a 'new' author who makes me want to really read again, like I used to when I was in high school and college. I definitely plan on reading more of his works.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

He may be other things in addition to passive, but I would definitely use the word passive as ONE of the adjectives I'd use in describing Toru. Although he does take action at certain times, he lets things happen to him quite a bit. I just was reading where he finds Creta naked, next to him in bed. He basicially does nothing about this situation but cover her with a quilt. Then he falls asleep again on the couch. Then they have this very odd conversation over breakfast and Toru that is completely unlike any conversation I've ever had. So very accepting to her odd story of showing up at his house sans clothes.




I agree, he certainly took action when he quit his job. That was a bold move, but it seemed like he didn't have any plans after that, then he became passive and sat around, waiting for something to happen.

It's interesting when he describes his garden as only getting light for a very short amount of time during the day, very similar to the experience he and others will find in the well.

[Not Afraid]

It's interesting when he describes his garden as only getting light for a very short amount of time during the day, very similar to the experience he and others will find in the well.


Great observation!

I finished Book 2 last night and have been looking back for a conversation netween Toru and May (or maybe it was Creta) about hate. She(?) says something about hate being something that is not separated from you, it is connected to you and that, when you lash out in hatred at someone, you are lashing out at yourself. However, I can't find this passage anywhere.

What brought it up to me was the dream of the man with the guitar case.

In Toru's dream, after Toru beats him up, the man with the guitar case (Norobu?) takes out a knife and peels off his skin. The skin then slinks across the floor and completely covers Toru. I thought this was an illustration of the passage I read earlier (but can't find) - how hate ends up effecting you as much as the person you hate.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Okay I'm done. And since it's officially 4 weeks, shall we dispense with spoiler tags?

Regarding his passiveness, I'll concede that he's passive. But not in a "Oh well, what can I do?" kind of way. He never gives up on anything. It's more that he sits, fully analyzes a situation, and comes to the conclusion that the best course of action is inaction. He may not be doing much, but he does just enough to affect the flow of how things happen to him. He knows he can't change the course of the river, but if he puts a rock in the right place, it will alter the currents enough to suit his needs.

I don't know that I suspected that the "give me 10 minutes" woman was a manifestation of Kumiko, but I did suspect very early on that she was part of some sort of dream world. At least once, Toru had soemone in the house (Creta, if memory serves) when the phone rang. He let it ring, but Creta gave no indication of having heard it.

There are some very interesting simliarities between this and Hardboiled Wonderland. Certain particulars and parallels that cropped up in both. Definitely makes me want to read another to see if the trend continues.

[Alex]

For me, the key to Toru's behavior (in the last half of the book) is summarized in one sentence from when his uncle visits after learning of Kumiko's disappearance:

You ought to train yourself to look at things with your own eyes until something comes clear.
While this immediately gives rise to him sitting and watching faces in Shinjuku, it also is what he does for the rest of the book. He moves along with the forces in his life and just watches. He spends a couple months going down to the bottom of the well every day and just seeing what happens.

And during this time nothing new is really revealed to him or the reader about what is going on and yet through this process, when the moment of truth comes he has come to understand exactly what is going on and does what is necessary.


Another part that intrigues is from Kumiko's computer conversation with Toru.

"Going bad" is something that happens over a longer period of time.
I find the sentence interesting but does anything in the book really bear this out. Every instance of life changes I can find in the book happen with a sudden change of direction rather than a gradual one. Events so orbit each other exerting a gradual gravitational pull but rather carom about immediately and drastically changing things.

May has her motorcycle accident that puts her on one path and then her interacting with Toru in the well shifts her off into another direction.

Lt. Mamiya's life is completely changed in a single incident.

Creta lives live one way and then is knocked 90-degrees off with her suicide attempt and then again with her defilement by Noboru Wataya.

Nutmeg's life shifted with the brutal murder of her husband. Cinnamon after his encounter with the wind-up bird.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yeah, I kinda scratched my head over that too. Of course, it could just be a case of, well, just because someone makes an overreaching generalization about life, doesn't mean it's true. Even in a book.

Or, maybe the missing chapters tie it all together. When can we expect Lani to be finished translating them for us?

[Alex]

Yeah, I kinda scratched my head over that too. Of course, it could just be a case of, well, just because someone makes an overreaching generalization about life, doesn't mean it's true. Even in a book.

That's true, certainly. But Murakami emphasizes the sentence, repeating it several times over a few pages. So obviously it has some significance but I'm not sure what he sees it being, particularly since nothing gradual ever happens in the book other than Toru's understanding at the bottom of the well.

[Not Afraid]

I finished over the weekend and, I have to say that upon second reading, things seem to come together for me in many more ways. It may be because I have read muchmore Murakami and he explores similar themes in other books, but I see a cohesiveness in this book I didn't see before.

I have a few primary thoughts that have been surfacing and I thought I'd pose them as question here to discuss. I will finish formulating my own thoughts on these subjects and write something a bit later. But, for now, I want to see if you all have any thoughts on these questions.

What is the Wind Up Bird? What is it's meaning in the novel?

What is the significance of water in the book?

Discuss the layers of the characters in the book. There seems to be several parts that make up each character; the "worldly" identity and the "other", unconscious, or "core" identity.
___________________________________

I have to say that I am convinced that the lady on the phone and the person in the hotel room are Komiko - they are just the unconscious part of Komike that Toru doesn't recognize because he is only familiar with the worldly identity of Komiko. That was something that didn't gel with me the first time - but seems so obvious now.

Every character either experiences or speak of the "other" identity in the book. May talks about the mass inside, Creta sees her core when she is defiles by Norobu, Toru learns to tap into the unconscious world by visiting the well. Miyama experiences the "other" while in the well but can't grasp it, Cinnamon has cyberspace as his "other", Nutmeg exxperiences the other while on the ship. Norubu is the only character that has no "other" side revealed.

I read an essay about the book that explores this concept a bit further and suggests that Norubu was Toru's "other" but described it as a "nostalgic image". I will find that description and post it here. It is a difficult explaination but it seemed to make sense when I read it.

This book is so rich and complex that, I could spend hours thinking and discussing it. There are a thousand angles to approach it from and I wish we had the benefit of a face to face discussion.

[Alex]

Is not Norubu's "other" somewhat revealed in that Toru apparently beat him to death on the other side.

I wonder whether Norubu defiled Creta in our world or the "other" world. The parallels between Creta's pre-defilement (but post-suicidal) prostitution and Kumiko's pre-disappearance promiscuity seem strong.

I also feel a connection between Boris the Manskinner and Norubu and wonder if they might be the same malignant force. When Lt. Mamiya is unable to shoot Boris what did this imply?

[Not Afraid]

I also feel a connection between Boris the Manskinner and Norubu and wonder if they might be the same malignant force.

Absolutely!

I will dig up the piece on nostalgic image when I get back.

[tracilicious]

I have to say that I am convinced that the lady on the phone and the person in the hotel room are Komiko - they are just the unconscious part of Komike that Toru doesn't recognize because he is only familiar with the worldly identity of Komiko. That was something that didn't gel with me the first time - but seems so obvious now.


Doesn't the book come right out and say this? My copy is at the library, so I can't verify it.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I was thinking about the "other" world and how unsubstantial it seemed. Often in stories when you have an other world it is more developed and understood. There's no full explanation in this book for the other world and it's much more dreamlike and vague.

I can't say that I like this idea as much as other concepts in the book. It leads me to feel unsatisifed with it. It seems almost lazy to me in retrospect, as if the whole concept could be described in one sentence: "There's this other world, and it's like a hotel, but you don't see faces, and Kumiko is represented by the woman in the bed, and the other people are just kinda there." It felt weak after the length of build-up, even though it does bring about an end to the story.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Doesn't the book come right out and say this? My copy is at the library, so I can't verify it.Yeah, that's what I think.

[Not Afraid]

I think he becomes convinced that it is Komiko, as she can use the Komiko voice that he recognizes, but I don''t think it is obviously Komiko - unless you apply the concept or "other identy" to the book.


As far as the duel identities, this is a concept that Murakami uses over and over in his fiction. There is always the abstract concept of deality that is present in his characters but, often, there is a physical manifestation of this duality as well. For me as a reader, it makes for very complex and interesting characters with the added touch of "magical realism" that I personally love in fiction (Garcia Marquez, Allende, Kundera, Rushde, Borges - all favorites). Both parts of a characters identity are needed for an understanding of each character, and Murakami does a great job of exploring thise parts of each of his characters - although it is certainly not overt. I think, as readers, we know asmuch about both Toru's and Komiko's "other" side by the end of the book as we do about their worldly identity.

I think most human being with any desire to be thoughtful about their own identity wants to know more about the "core" of himself. Everyone can see what sort of face we put forth, physically, and others can oftentimes see the other "something" that is internal by a strong driving force, but we often cannot see this in ourselves. I am fascinated by Murakami's take on each characters search for their "whole" identity - the real world version and the internal core identity.


I've been thinking about the water elements and the use of the word "flow" throughout the book. Malta Kano comes into Toru's house early on and checks the water to see if there is a problem with flor. Throughout the book, there are water/flow references. They culminate and end after Toru beats and kills his "evil identity (Norubu Wataya) and the well begins filling up with water. At that point, the healthy "flow" of his life is restored once the blockage is removed. I know there are hundreds of such analogies within the book and I can tie this into the concept of the wind Up Bird as a representative of the flow of time. This will take further explaination on my part, but I am, still formulating this concept.

[Alex]

Toru is also extremely isolated and completely the nexus of the characters in the book. Other than one session where both Norubu and Malta are present and the dual character of Cinnamon and Nutmeg, no person in the book with whom Toru interacts ever interacts with another person.

May never interacts with Kumiko never interacts with Creta never interacts with Cinnamon/Nutmeg never interacts with Lt. Miyami, and so on. Past interactions are mentioned but never observed directly.

No character in the story could, if questioned, directly confirm the existence of any other character.

Which raises for me the possibility that none of the events described really happened. That it is all just the metaphorical coping of a man who has learned his wife was unfaithful and waiting to see how they cope with that.

But that's most likely going to far.

[Not Afraid]

Toru is also extremely isolated and completely the nexus of the characters in the book. Other than one session where both Norubu and Malta are present and the dual character of Cinnamon and Nutmeg, no person in the book with whom Toru interacts ever interacts with another person.

May never interacts with Kumiko never interacts with Creta never interacts with Cinnamon/Nutmeg never interacts with Lt. Miyami, and so on. Past interactions are mentioned but never observed directly.

No character in the story could, if questioned, directly confirm the existence of any other character.

Which raises for me the possibility that none of the events described really happened. That it is all just the metaphorical coping of a man who has learned his wife was unfaithful and waiting to see how they cope with that.

But that's most likely going to far.

Interesting line of thought. It beings to mind the several references to imagination that are brought up in the third part - one is in reference to Mayama and Boris the Manskinner and their relationship, the other is between Toru and the "other" Kumiko in their final encounter in room 208. Oh, to have a searchable copy of the book.

[Alex]

Oh, to have a searchable copy of the book.

Here you go.
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0679775439/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-4533088-3999938#reader-link)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Interesting line of thought. It beings to mind the several references to imagination that are brought up in the third part - one is in reference to Mayama and Boris the Manskinner and their relationship, the other is between Toru and the "other" Kumiko in their final encounter in room 208. Oh, to have a searchable copy of the book. Early on, having had the same lament for M. Bovary, I began taking careful notes of things that caught my interest. Unfortunately 1) it slowed my reading down, so I abandoned it and 2) I've already loaned my copy out, so if I just wrote down a page reference and not a full quote, I'm out of luck.

That being said, here are a few bits I wrote down. Nothing particularly enlightening in terms of digesting the whole book, I'm more drawn to little bits of observational wisdom:

* I found very vivid and familiar the description in chapter 2 of the ettiquette of cooking dinner and waiting before eating until your spouse comes home, even if they are late. You know you're not required to wait, but you do anyway. Of course, that was immediately followed by obvious clues that she was cheating on him, so it was also quite heartbreaking.

* I reference page 33, in chapter 3. He described the torture of being interupted during some long internal train of thought, and never being able to figure out what it was that you were thinking about. I HATE that.

* "If the Dali Lama were on his death bed and the jazz musician Eric Dolphy were to try to explain to him the importance of changing one's engine oil in accordance with changes in the sound of the bass clarinet, that exchange might have been a touch more worthwhile and effective than my conversations with Noboru Wataya." Ha!!! Freaking love that.

*Book 2, Chapter 10 (page 258), May posits that high concepts only exist because death exists. Without death, we'd have no urgency, and no reason to care what life's all about. There's always be time for that later.

* While Mayama was in the well, he asks, "What's the essential difference between 11 hours and 23 hours?"

Like I said, nothing earth shattering, but the two Murakami books I've read are rife with those little gems that make me pause and appreciate his insight.

[Not Afraid]

Here you go.
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0679775439/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-4533088-3999938#reader-link)
Eh, that's only selections. "No references to imagination found".

teeheehee. No imagination found.

[Alex]

The word "imagination" appears on pages 63, 156, 268, 374, 405, 471, 472, 552, 555, 560, 562, 578, 579, 580, 584, 588.

The instances surrouding page 579 are the ones in the coversation between Toru and the other Kumiko.

[Not Afraid]

Thanks. I'm not even sure I'm on to anything with this train of thought.

[SacTown Chronic]

I also feel a connection between Boris the Manskinner and Norubu and wonder if they might be the same malignant force. When Lt. Mamiya is unable to shoot Boris what did this imply?I thought (in retrospect, of course) that maybe only someone with blood ties to Boris/Norubu could kill him/them. This occured to me when alternate universe Toru fails to kill alternate universe Norubu and Komiko is forced to pull the plug on her brother.

Then again, I also considered that Boris the Manskinner knew Lt. Mamiya was not capable of killing another person in cold blood and Lt. Mamiya missed on purpose. But it sure felt like something prevented those bullets from hitting Boris.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Then again, I also considered that Boris the Manskinner knew Lt. Mamiya was not capable of killing another person in cold blood and Lt. Mamiya missed on purpose. But it sure felt like something prevented those bullets from hitting Boris.It sure lends creadance to the Noboru as Toru's other theory, assuming you accept the Toru:Mayama::Noboru::Boris analogy. i.e., if Boris is Mayama's other, than he falls under the same prophecy as Mayama, namely that he would not die on that continent.

[tracilicious]

I really like the Noboru as Toru's other theory. He does mention quite a few times that they are exact opposites and that the other doesn't even exist in each own's world.

It also lends credence to Alex's theory of none of it happening. If Noboru is Toru's other, he probably isn't even a politician at all, or real for that matter. Malta and Noboru met, but if they are both fake it doesn't matter.

[€uroMeinke]

Which raises for me the possibility that none of the events described really happened. That it is all just the metaphorical coping of a man who has learned his wife was unfaithful and waiting to see how they cope with that.

But that's most likely going to far.

Perhaps, but I get this as a real possibility too, that all (or much) of this is a product of Toru's dream world and thus all the characters are really facets of Toru.

What I picked up in my second reading was the concept of "imagination." Boris warns of people using it to ill consequences in the camp, and you have to wonder how much is going on in Toru's imagination and possibly preventing him from acting in a decisive fashion. I was also more intrigued by Cinnamon's "Chronicle" - Toru speculates that much is imaginary since Cinnamon nor Nutmeg actually experienced it and rather obejct of thier current life made their way into a sort of fictional mythology (But I love the concept of creating one's own personal mythology), I wonder if this is comments somewhat on our own benign ways of reinventing our pasts?

Which leads me to think about Murakami dealing with Japanese War attrocities, which were very real horrors and hardly the product of imagination. This struck me very differently than say post-war German writing which is very heavy handed and guilt laden about dealing with the events of that hemisphere.

I'm also intrigued by the running theme of "prostitution" Creta, a prostitute of the mind and one-time flesh, Nutmeg and Toru essentailly prostituing their own psychic abilities (Toru even compares what he does with Creta). And even the conclusion Komiko's confession of being with many men, sounds more like a prostitute than her out having a good time.

On the other end of the spectrum is May, all sexual tension, but remaining virginal and in some sense being Toru's savior/confessor at the bottom of the well, and she provides solace at the books end. As to why Toru never got her letters - May herslef in her last letter confessed she addressed the notes "vaguely" so perhaps these are letters written never intended to be read, though the last one expresses some regret for that. From May's perspective, it may have been to protect her from being vulnerable confessing her thoughts in her new life.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop now and read some more.

[€uroMeinke]

That being said, here are a few bits I wrote down. Nothing particularly enlightening in terms of digesting the whole book, I'm more drawn to little bits of observational wisdom:

* I found very vivid and familiar the description in chapter 2 of the ettiquette of cooking dinner and waiting before eating until your spouse comes home, even if they are late. You know you're not required to wait, but you do anyway. Of course, that was immediately followed by obvious clues that she was cheating on him, so it was also quite heartbreaking.

* I reference page 33, in chapter 3. He described the torture of being interupted during some long internal train of thought, and never being able to figure out what it was that you were thinking about. I HATE that.

* "If the Dali Lama were on his death bed and the jazz musician Eric Dolphy were to try to explain to him the importance of changing one's engine oil in accordance with changes in the sound of the bass clarinet, that exchange might have been a touch more worthwhile and effective than my conversations with Noboru Wataya." Ha!!! Freaking love that.

*Book 2, Chapter 10 (page 258), May posits that high concepts only exist because death exists. Without death, we'd have no urgency, and no reason to care what life's all about. There's always be time for that later.

* While Mayama was in the well, he asks, "What's the essential difference between 11 hours and 23 hours?"

Like I said, nothing earth shattering, but the two Murakami books I've read are rife with those little gems that make me pause and appreciate his insight.

I love all of these, especailly the one I bolded - been one of my philosophical precepts for ages, so it made me smile when I read it again.

[€uroMeinke]

And another thing - this comment caught my attention because I feel exactly opposite:

I was thinking about the "other" world and how unsubstantial it seemed. Often in stories when you have an other world it is more developed and understood. There's no full explanation in this book for the other world and it's much more dreamlike and vague.

I can't say that I like this idea as much as other concepts in the book. It leads me to feel unsatisifed with it. It seems almost lazy to me in retrospect, as if the whole concept could be described in one sentence: "There's this other world, and it's like a hotel, but you don't see faces, and Kumiko is represented by the woman in the bed, and the other people are just kinda there." It felt weak after the length of build-up, even though it does bring about an end to the story.

Unlike a Tolkien or Rowlings, I don't think Murakami set out to create an "other" world with complex rules, histories, and mythologies - rather it is this vague other that remains almost erily ambiguous - there are no rules to pin things on, you just have to ride with the flow of experiences as Toru does and draw conclusions from your intuition rather than your intellect. I loved that aspect of the book, but I can easily see how someone else might not.

[€uroMeinke]

Adding more to my above comment - I think the ambiguity is a great foil to Toru's insistance to keep things "concrete." he himself is struggling with where reality ends and the other world begins. He gives people concrete names, becasue the people themselves alone are perhaps to ethereal. In the end it may well be Toru's attempt to make sense of Komiko's infidelity, and make concrete his own ambgiguous feelings.

[Not Afraid]

I love the ambiguity in Murikami's writing, but I find I prefer things less spelled out. I think that is why I've been thinking quite a bit about the various passages about imagination. He requires much more use of the readers' own imagination to try and fit things together and, something they just don't fit. I sort of like this ambigious aspect. I find it much more interesting as a reader than when things are spelled out to me with many facts. When I list many of my favorite writers, many of them have at least some aspect of ambiguity.