Cruise Ship Incident

[Matterhorn Fan]

http://www.local6.com/news/9537249/detail.html

"We understand from radio transmission from the captain of the ship to the Coast Guard that he believes the ship was on auto pilot, and for some reason the auto pilot let loose, and there was a sharp right turn that spun the ship," Local 6 New reporter Donald Forbes said. "That caused passengers to go flying here and there."I do believe "go flying here and there" is the technical news reporter term for what happens to passengers when a cruise ship lists 50-60 degrees to the side.

[CoasterMatt]

Where's the video? :p

[Matterhorn Fan]

There's been plenty of video of the ship slowly coming into Port Canaveral, but I doubt we'll see any video of the people go flying here and there.

[Moonliner]

There's been plenty of video of the ship slowly coming into Port Canaveral, but I doubt we'll see any video of the people go flying here and there.

Ohh I expect we will. There is always someone running around a cruise ship with a video camera running. Espically on one of the larger ships.

Apparently this happend shortly after it left port. I wonder if they were in the middle of the required emergency drill, that would be ironic.

Of course it's too early to tell, but I'll wager it was pilot error. When you can steer something that big with a joystick all it takes is a lunch tray set in the wrong place....

[CoasterMatt]

...and Donald Sutherland as the clumsy waiter - oh God, I really should put down this stuff

[JWBear]

"There's got to be a morning after..."

Seriously though... 50-60 degrees? Not likely. A ship like that could take 35 to 40 max.

[Matterhorn Fan]

That's what I heard the news say. It was channel 2, not channel 6, so I'm more likely to believe it coming from them. But they still were in "breaking news! we don't know anything but we'll blather on and on because this is a good story" mode.

Maybe the 50-60 was between the water and the ship rather than between the ship and upright? Gee, that woudn't have been misleading or anything.

[€uroMeinke]

Why does this, more than any of the other arguements, make me want to ride a cruise ship?

[Matterhorn Fan]

Be sure to take Princess--they've had an "exciting" year and I'd bet there would be some bare midriffs.

[Not Afraid]

What did you do on your vacation?

It's was cool! We got to go flying here and there.


I must have heat stroke, because I'm just laughing and laughing.

[Moonliner]

Here is an interesting thread started by someone on the ill fated cruise.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=381758

[Ghoulish Delight]

:eek: Wow, that's a pretty harrowing description.

On a side note...hey neat, cruise geeks!

[tracilicious]

Staff members are walking around trying to see if anyone needs a hug. Lots of people are still crying, and this happened an hour ago exactly.

If I'm ever in a cruise accident, the last thing I want is staff members busy seeing if people need hugs. Medical attention, food, water, blankets, yes. Hugs? Not so much.

Am I a bad person for laughing at the part about the person naked on the massage table coasting into the other room?

That thread said 12 degrees.

[wendybeth]

:eek: Wow, that's a pretty harrowing description.

On a side note...hey neat, cruise geeks!


Lol- I've been a closet cruise geek for over a year now, since before our cruise to Alaska. At least one other member here is as well.;) CC can be a vicious place to post, full of trolls and upgrade grubs and the like, but it is very informative as well.

Even a 12 degree list is pretty damned scary, epecially if you consider that 45 will capsize. I think of all the glass and items that could go flying and I can only imagine the level of destruction. I hope that little girl is okay.:(

[Prudence]

CC makes MC look like a picnic. There's lots of good info, but you have to sort through the crap to get there. Lots of holier-than-thou types around, brand loyalty wars, and over-zealous moderation. (when I was reading the NCL board, the moderator would delete entire threads if someone posted something inappropriate. This would then reduce post counts. Since many people made a big deal about publicly dismissing anything a low count poster said, and since these were frequently newbie-heavy threads deleted due to troll work, it was very discouraging.) Differences of opinion are frequently viewed as sedition. But there's truly a lot of good info there, mixed in with all the other stuff.

[RStar]

...and Donald Sutherland as the clumsy waiter - oh God, I really should put down this stuffHey, now that's swank! Kentucky Fried Movie! That and Blazing Saddles, great funny movies!!

The ship listing, not so funny (well, ok, maybe the neekid lady on the table sliding into the next room). ;)

[Andrew]

We used CruiseCritic extensively to plan and research our Alaska cruise of this past spring, and made several new friends. I didn't go much into the meta-discussion threads, though.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

According to the witness posting in that thread, the scheduled movie for the evening was "Titanic". I can't help but imagine if this incident had occurred during the film.

[Moonliner]

I would say CruiseCritics is a good place for some basic research. For my more exacting cruise needs I use rec.travel.cruises. A very savvy bunch with less trolls to the gallon. If you are not familiar with usenet you can get free access to rec.travel.cruises via recgroups.com (http://www.recgroups.com)

[Gemini Cricket]

So, why would they show 'Titanic' on a cruise ship? I'm being half funny, half serious. I mean, they can't/won't show any plane crash movies on airplanes... isn't there a similar rule on cruise ships? I'm guessing not.
:)

[DreadPirateRoberts]

CC can be a vicious place to post, full of trolls and upgrade grubs and the like, but it is very informative as well.
(

What is an "upgrade grub"?

[RStar]

Good question.

And I have a hard time beliving they would show Titanic on a cruise ship myself.

~Bob

[Moonliner]

What is an "upgrade grub"?

Typically when you book a cabin on a cruise, you select a specific class of cabin such as "inside", "outside", "balcony" etc... Cruise lines often give out upgrades to a higher level of cabin if the ship is not full. Some people make it their life's ambition to get an upgrade and try all sorts of tricks... That's a grub. The especially obnoxious ones seem to think it's some sort of right and go flaming bonkers when then are actually placed in the cabin they selected and paid for.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I read that entire thread, what a nightmare! People on deck holding on for dear life, pools being completely emptied while people were swimming, broken glass, flying t.v. sets, etc. Some quite severe injuries were sustained. Unfortunately, it didn't seem like that rare of an occurence! Imagine if your apartment suddenly dipped to an angle somewhat less than a flight of stairs, and didn't right itself for about 15 seconds.

[Moonliner]

I read that entire thread, what a nightmare! People on deck holding on for dear life,

Yeah, I really hope they did a head count very soon after that happened.

[JWBear]

They're now saying the list was 15 degrees. Pfffft! That's nothing!

Here's what 25 degrees looks like!
http://www.atlantic-cable.com/CableStories/Watson/CANTAT/Rolling-1.jpg

[wendybeth]

I don't believe for a second it was 15 degrees. Even given the height of the ship, it doesn't account for the fact that the sixth floor was under water during the incident. I realise they were also turning, which would add velocity to the tilt, but it was still far too catastrophic for a 15 degree. Factor in the captain's reaction, and something stinks. It was a figgen miracle someone didn't go overboard.

[JWBear]

This is 15 degrees:
http://www.research.rutgers.edu/~landi/Antarctic/05Deception_Island/P137C1R3_07A.JPG

My guess is that either the list was much more than 15 degrees; or, more likely, most of the damage was caused by the rapid motion of the ship, not the angle of the decks.

[wendybeth]

The sixth floor is the last floor before the balcony staterooms. If you look at this pic, you can see exactly where it is, and even given the undoubted cresting of water during the turn it is still incredible that it was under water at only 15 degrees, and for the length of time reported. (Approx 15 seconds)

http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/PandOCardsJPEGS/PandO_Princess_Officials/CrownPrincess02.jpg

[JWBear]

[QUOTE=wendybeth]The sixth floor is the last floor before the balcony staterooms. If you look at this pic, you can see exactly where it is, and even given the undoubted cresting of water during the turn it is still incredible that it was under water at only 15 degrees, and for the length of time reported. (Approx 15 seconds)


That's not the Crown Princess. This is the Crown Princess:
http://www.cruisenewsdaily.com/s-prcrown2-1q.jpg

Deck 6 is the first deck below where the lifeboats are - the deck with 2 sections of big windows, and a short section of small windows. I wouldn't put much faith in reports of water covering the windows at this level. If the ship had tipped over that far, she would never have righted herself.

[Matterhorn Fan]

I heard that water came in on deck 9.

Methinks channel 6 might be taking over channel 2.

[JWBear]

I heard that water came in on deck 9...
That was pool water.

Actually, this supports my theory of inertia doing the majority of the damage. Pool water was seen flowing down the stairs and elevators. The stair towers and elevators are forward and abaft of the pools. If it was simply a matter of a tilt to one side, the water from the pools would simply have gone over the side of the ship. For the water to flow perpendicular to the angle of tilt would mean that there were other forces at play. The list was caused by the ship making a sudden 180 degree turn at high speed. Inertia would cause people and objects to move away from the turn at a tangent. Unlike planes, which bank into a turn, ships list away from a turn - i.e. a turn to starboard will cause the ship to list to port. The combination of tilt and inertia would make the list seem much worse than it was.

[wendybeth]

Whoops- I think I must have clicked on the wrong pic- ty, JW.

Whatever the degree, it had to have been horrible to be there. I guess one gal was on a compensatory cruise from another cruise mishap earlier this year- wonder if she'll try it yet again?

[tracilicious]

The list was caused by the ship making a sudden 180 degree turn at high speed.


Are you sure about that? I didn't see that in any of the links I've read. Can you link me?

[tracilicious]

After further reading it seems that the ship was not making a 180 turn, just following its normal course when it listed. The cruise critic thread did reference a prior incident in which a ship did a sharp turn and listed. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

I haven't found any news of how the injured people are.

[Gemini Cricket]

I haven't found any news of how the injured people are.
Aww, they weren't injured... they just flew here and there. No biggie. Nothing to see here. D'oh! At least that's how Forbes description made it sound... :eek:

[tracilicious]

This sorry excuse for a news article (http://www.wesh.com/news/9547235/detail.html) says that there was no head count after the incident. :eek:

[Ghoulish Delight]

This sorry excuse for a news article (http://www.wesh.com/news/9547235/detail.html) says that there was no head count after the incident. :eek:
Which supports what that message board post said, that they didn't call muster (the only way to get a head count). That does seem a tad irresponsible. What with crew giving out hugs, and no call for emergency procedures, it seems that someone thought "avoiding panic" was more important than taking safety precautions. When, in fact, taking safety precautions and relying on the kinds of emergency procedures that we're all programmed to follow from school age is exactly what prevents panic.

[JWBear]

Are you sure about that? I didn't see that in any of the links I've read. Can you link me?
For the first couple of days, nearly every news report reported the 180 degree turn. Google it for yourself.

After further reading it seems that the ship was not making a 180 turn, just following its normal course when it listed. The cruise critic thread did reference a prior incident in which a ship did a sharp turn and listed. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Only 4 things would cause a sudden list in a ship; a massive wave, rapid flooding of the hull, sudden shift in deadweight, or a sharp turn. There is no way for a ship to just tilt to one side without reason. Countless reports also mentioned a steering malfunction.

Yes, I'm quite aware of the incident on the Sapphire Princess. She made a sudden 180 degree turn with the exact same results. In that instance, however, the turn was deliberate – they were returning to port because a passenger had a heart attack. The exact cause of the Crown Princess’s sudden and unplanned turn is still unknown.

[JWBear]

Which supports what that message board post said, that they didn't call muster (the only way to get a head count). That does seem a tad irresponsible. What with crew giving out hugs, and no call for emergency procedures, it seems that someone thought "avoiding panic" was more important than taking safety precautions. When, in fact, taking safety precautions and relying on the kinds of emergency procedures that we're all programmed to follow from school age is exactly what prevents panic.
It seems to me that the officers on the bridge where probably preoccupied with figuring out what happened, and making sure the ship was still seaworthy - their primary responsibilities.

As far as emergency procedures… they were followed, and avoiding a panic is one of the things the crew is trained to do. No one wants a ship full of panicked passengers. Things would have gotten real ugly. From all accounts, the crew performed admirably.

I also want to throw a little reality check in to all of this. The ship only listed 15 degrees. I’m sorry, but that’s not really very much. In the days before stabilizers, passenger liners would routinely roll that much or more. In heavy weather, the Queen Mary could roll as much as 30 degrees to either side – back and forth – for hours! Very few people were injured because the interiors were designed for this. Things were bolted down. There were handrails. Shop displays were glued down. Etc.

I blame the injuries on the failure of modern cruise ship interior to realize that these are ships, first and foremost, not hotels. Nothing that floats remains rock steady – ever.

[Alex]

As far as emergency procedures… they were followed, and avoiding a panic is one of the things the crew is trained to do. No one wants a ship full of panicked passengers. Things would have gotten real ugly. From all accounts, the crew performed admirably.

I agree with most of what you say. But an unexpected 15 degree list is certainly enough to throw someone over a railing (especially if they were already leaning over it looking at the water).

I would think that one of the first things they'd want to do is get a head count which would give them an idea of wheather anybody might be in the water (or injured to a point that they couldn't respond to the call).

I won't say proper prodedure wasn't followed (I don't know nearly enoug), but as a thought experiment it seems weird that they wouldn't try to get all the passengers organized for a count, and to aid in triage of more minor injuries.

[JWBear]

I agree with most of what you say. But an unexpected 15 degree list is certainly enough to throw someone over a railing (especially if they were already leaning over it looking at the water).

I would think that one of the first things they'd want to do is get a head count which would give them an idea of wheather anybody might be in the water (or injured to a point that they couldn't respond to the call).

I won't say proper prodedure wasn't followed (I don't know nearly enoug), but as a thought experiment it seems weird that they wouldn't try to get all the passengers organized for a count, and to aid in triage of more minor injuries.
I agree that no head count is a little odd. I was just defending the actions of the crew in general. The passengers were nearly unanimous in their praise of the crew.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I agree that no head count is a little odd. I was just defending the actions of the crew in general. The passengers were nearly unanimous in their praise of the crew.
It just seemed really odd to me that they didn't call muster. That's exactly what those drills are for. Why have the procedure if it's not going to be used?

[Matterhorn Fan]

Procedures are to make people feel safe, not to actually protect or save them.

[JWBear]

It just seemed really odd to me that they didn't call muster. That's exactly what those drills are for. Why have the procedure if it's not going to be used?
You muster the passengers when you are in a situation where the ship needs evacuating. I'm going to guess that the decision was made to not muster the passengers because the ship was not in danger of sinking, and to call for a muster would create panic. To me, that sounds like a wise decision.

The following is from another board I frequent. The poster is a cruise ship captain himself:

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=6937&post=185666#POST185666

I'll ask him what his take on the head count is.

[Moonliner]

Ya call that a list? Nawww mate, that's not a list. THIS is a list (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/ship.ap/index.html).

[JWBear]

Ya call that a list? Nawww mate, that's not a list. THIS is a list (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/ship.ap/index.html).
No, that's not a list, it's call the insurance company time!

[Moonliner]

No, that's not a list, it's call the insurance company time!

They say it was carrying over 4,000 cars from Japan to Canada. That's gonna be a big insurance check. Not to mention the effect it will have on people waiting for that new car they ordered....