Living greener

[tracilicious]

Inspired by the Gore thread, I thought that perhaps we could all share tips for living a greener/more simple life. What do you do that puts a bit less strain on the earth?

My favorite living greener tip is get rid of your cleaners. White vinegar and baking soda can clean nearly anything. Vinegar disinfects too! Use vinegar for wipey jobs and baking soda for scrubby jobs. Yes, vinegar smells, but so do commercial cleaners. The vinegar smell evaporates rather quickly. To make the smell a bit more pleasant, and boost your cleaning power, add 20 drops of tea tree oil and 20 drops of lavender to your vinegar/water solution. It's dirt cheap, you aren't spraying pesticides onto your counters and contributing to environmental pollution, and you aren't using a new plastic bottle everytime you refill your solution. Here (http://frugalliving.about.com/cs/tips/a/blbsodavin.htm) are more uses for vinegar and baking soda. The only cleaners we buy are laundry detergent, dishwashing soap, and glass cleaner.

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

[€uroMeinke]

I use public transit to get to work - today it was an American Airlines MD-80. Tomorrow, I will carpool.

[Alex]

Most of my environmental tips boil down to one underlying principal:

Don't confuse "discomfort" as a synonym for "anything less than complete, perfect comfort." Much of our energy inefficience comes from never wanting to experience any inconvenience or discomfort where anything less than perfect comfort is labelled as uncomfortable and anything less than perfect convenience is labelled as inconvenient. Thus we want every gadget to do everything that might concievably be wanted and we want it to do it immediately. Therefore we frequently end up making purchases based on the less than 1% outlying anomolies than for the 99% standard uses.

God knows I'm not an anti-car activist (I've driven 50 miles just to have dinner and then drive home) but people are really stupid an wasteful in choosing their cars. For most people, 95% of their driving falls into
a single type and need. Go buy a car that fits that need and then figure out how to get by when the other 5% comes up. Existing electric cars would be ideal for 90% of all driving but people won't buy them because sometimes they want to drive 300 miles to Vegas. Or 400 to Disneyland. Ok, so buy the electric car and then rent a car for long trips. Or buy a small car and then rent a truck for the day when you need to haul a couch. You're never going to be trying to outrun an invading alien army so you don't need a car that can go 185 miles per hour.

If you live in the city and near your job then ride a bike and rent cars for weekend travel.

You don't need air conditioning every time the temperature rises above 75 degrees or a heater every time it falls below 70.

Don't run the dishwasher half full. Don't do small loads of laundry. If you have the space consider line drying your clothes, at least for the bulkier stuff that takes the longest in the machine.

Every once in a while just walk to where you're going. Even if it is kind of far away. Amazingly it isn't as hard as you probably think, you'll eventually get where you're going, and you'll form a stronger bond with your neighborhood.

But mostly, while the all the little things are good, until people begin to behave rationally in their transportation choices the inefficiency most people have there far outweighs any gains (for most people) elsewhere in their lives.

So I think the two biggest things you can do are:

1) Drive the most efficient car that meets 90% of your needs (and be honest about what you're needs are). Lani and I are fine with a "compact" car since we hardly ever have other people in it. We got a hybrid set up for highway travel (as opposed to the Prius which gets better city mileage) since most of our car miles are highway miles) and didn't worry about the low horsepower because 80 miles an hour is really the fastest I ever need to go.

2) Live where you work or work where you live. Once it became feasible we moved so that Lani's commute is only 3 miles each way instead of 30.

[Gemini Cricket]

I take the subway as often as I can.
We only drive our truck on Saturdays to do shopping.
We follow the "if it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown flush it down" rule in our house.
Ralphie makes me recycle.
Ralphie shops at TJs.
We use the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Seafood Watch card.
We reuse grocery bags to pick up Frodo's poopage.
I brake for endangered otters and I don't shoot whales.

[Moonliner]

Short term I suppose those are all good ideas but they are not going to win the battle.

What we need is a true leader for this country that understands not only that "it's the economy stupid" but that we are getting to the point that the economy depends on the environment. Environmentalism is no longer just a "Feel good" issue but is now a real world life/economy issue. What this country needs is NOT more people on public transit or for everyone to stop using air conditioning. What we need is an Apollo style incentive program to get this country off fossil fuels and onto some combination of clean energies (hydrogen, solar, wind). Until that happens we are just using umbrellas to ward off a hurricane.

[Alex]

Support a massive push into developing nuclear power.

[Gemini Cricket]

The problem I have with 'green' is the same problem I have with 'red' as in red state. There's a lot of preachiness going on. Lots of lectures, guilt, making you feel like the can of tuna you're about to eat is the last one ever...
I think working at the Monterey Bay Aquarium did that to me. Everything was such a downer. Otters are going extinct, tunas numbers are dropping, don't eat orange roughy, shark finning is horrible, kitty litter kills marine life, lobsters are smaller than they used to be. I mean, I know all this stuff and I do my best to spread the word and follow the rules but... sheesh!
I just get so tired of people telling me this and that. Such a drag.

(This isn't a commentary about the thread starter or anything. Just me thinking out loud.)

:)

[Moonliner]

Support a massive push into developing nuclear power.

I used to believe as many did and many still do, that all we really needed was workable nuclear fusion (not fission) and all our energy worries would be over.

Now I think that's a pipe dream, at least in our lifetimes. If fusion ever works at all it will be so expensive to create a plant that it will leave us right back at the hands of big corporations who will set the price per/kilowatt as they see fit.

They technology I'm banking on is fuel cells powered by Hydrogen created from solar cells on my roof. Right now all the pieces are in place to use this technology to create all the energy I need to run my house and cars except one. The solar cells that use light energy to efficiency separate hydrogen out of water. Right now that technology works, but it's only effective in the ultraviolet range of light. As soon as that range can be moved down to visible light (where 90% of the suns energy is) then we are in business. There is some promising research in that area going on right now.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Traci - we've been using vinegar to clean the bunny's litter box and I'm so impressed with how well it cleans. The smell does vanish immediately and I never have to scrub. I've also cleaned carpet stains with it. I keep thinking I should buy a spray bottle for the stuff, and I think your post is the final push for me in that direction.

My biggest environmental pet peeve are all the recent disposable cleaning cloths - Swiffer, Clorox wipes, etc. Not only are you throwing away tons of fabric but those things are loaded with chemicals. I use rags when I can and save paper towels for truly nasty jobs.

The wipes also enforce the idea that every surface in the house should be sanitized. The commercials I'm seeing for these products frighten me - wiping children's toys, wiping the baby's play area, wiping every piece of food... I do not want an absolutely sanitary life for my kids, I want their bodies to be able to fight disease by themselves. I think this ties in to what Alex was talking about: overkill. Not to mention OCD.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I used to believe as many did and many still do, that all we really needed was workable nuclear fusion (not fission) and all our energy worries would be over.

Now I think that's a pipe dream, at least in our lifetimes. I think Alex meant conventional nuclear power. In many ways it is cleaner than other power plants.

But I'm with you on the personal solar power thing. At least in places like sunny CA, it's become a real alternative.

[Moonliner]

I think Alex meant conventional nuclear power. In many ways it is cleaner than other power plants.

Conventional nuclear power or fusion, the same argment applies. It's too much a big busines enterprise.


But I'm with you on the personal solar power thing. At least in places like sunny CA, it's become a real alternative.
Note: What I'm looking for is not solar power. It's fuel cell power that just uses sunlight to separate out the hydrogen. It is much more efficient than direct solar and thus is (or will hopefully be) practical in a much wider swath of the planet.

[Alex]

Personally, I think fuel cells are the pipe dream that has derailed sensible discussion into alternative fuels.

And I don't care about big business providing the power I'd just prefer we move from sources of power that destroy the environment by design to a source of power that only does significant damage to the environment by accident.

There's a guy in New Jersey that uses solar power to provide all of the electricity he needs for his home. He then uses the excess solar power for electrolysis to power fuel cells that run his home and car through the long winter when sunshine is rare and its energy reduced. To store enough hydrogen to power his fuel cells for 3 1/2 months required 10 1,000 gallon tanks. Fortunately he has 12 acres of land on which to put all of these solar panels and gas tanks.

In most urban and suburban areas this simply wouldn't work without massive infrastructural redesigns. For example, in my apartment complex the buildings and landscaping have been designed to minimize solar exposure so as to minimize the need to use air conditioning during the hot summers. The roofs are pretty steeply sloped so that at any time less than half has sun exposure. The property is dotted with tall leafy trees that further block the sun. To get much use out of solar panels all of the buildings would have to be reroofed and a lot of trees would have to be cut down.

Yes, fuel cell technology will probably become more efficient but we're orders of magnitude away from where the average person in any but the most perpetually sunny environments can easily become completely self sufficient as an energy producer. Nor would most be willing to take the time and trouble of installation and maintenance (solar panels require constant cleaning and large gas tanks exist in a rather onerous regulatory environment).

Asking everybody to become responsible for producing their own electricity is kind of like asking everybody to grow their own corn. It may be a good idea in principle but it simply isn't going to happen. Better then, in my opinion, to focus on converting the existing electrical grid into something that isn't designed to pump tons of particulate into the air every day.

That's not to say I don't support individual use of solar energy and fuel cells. I just don't seem them as a panacea to the structural problems in our we actually supply electricty.

[Not Afraid]

Our house is a eco-nightmare. Built in 1927, it has only a few things that make it even slightly green. I recently got a front loading washer and dryer and our fridge is evergy complient. We do use compact flourescents.

I drive to places for a living. Granted, I stay local, but I make an abundance of short trips. I have thought about getting a Vespa for work, but the thought of driving around "naked" scares me.

Next go around with cars, we will be considering a smart car or a hybrid, but I'm stuck for 2 more years in a lease.

We do recycle regularly but we don't compost (something I'd like to start doing). I always snip my 6-pack holders.

I use vinegar to clean quite a bit. I buy it by the gallon jugs and go through it pretty quickly. I, too, hate the sudden sanitize hysteria and refuse to buy products to support that craze and waste.

I'm now using pine cat litter.

Two good linkd for more tips:

One (http://realestate.msn.com/Improve/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=440485&GT1=8479)

Two (http://members.aol.com/Ramola15/help.html)

[Ghoulish Delight]

We're going to plant the giant sequoia cone that my parents brought back from Yosemite* in the back patio of our condo :D





* No, they did not take one from the park, which would be illegal. They purchased it in a gift shop

[Alex]

We went to Tahoe a couple weekends ago for the day (gas wasteful, we drove 300 miles total for about 5 hours of entertainment) but because the trip back is mostly downhill (after the initial climb) we did get from South Lake Tahoe to Sacramento (about 90 miles) on 1.1 gallons of gas. And the whole 150 miles drive home we got 62 miles per gallon.

So, another tip: buy a hybrid and then only drive downhill.

[Alex]

When it comes to energy efficient appliances check into discount and refund programs offered by your local electric company. They frequently subsidize them either directly with the retailer or as rebates to the consumer.

[Not Afraid]

Yes! We got some nice discounts when we bought our new W/D.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I saw this on Unrwapped last night. Biota (http://www.biotaspringwater.com/bottle) is a bottled spring water whose botle is made from corn not crude oil which will (under the right conditions) biodrgrade in ~12 weeks. I haven't tried it, but it sounds nifty.

[flippyshark]

Lisa, be glad that this is not your cat:

Environmentally Unconscientious Cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WofFb_eOxxA)

[tracilicious]

...Until that happens we are just using umbrellas to ward off a hurricane.

Living green is about more than fossil fuels. I'm sure you are right, that none of the small changes we make are going to make an immediate significant impact on the planet, but I'm concerned with more than fuel. For one thing, waste production is huge in America. Everything is disposable or so cheaply made that it has to be replaced right away anyways. We're dumping loads of pesticides into the ground, and into our bodies, and our farming practices are such that the soil gets depleted and has to be fertilized. Etc.

The reason I try to live "greener" is simply because I think we need a paradigm shift. Put forth a bit more effort, buy some things used, recycle what you don't need, be more conscientious in general. Americans are the ultimate consumers. We use use use use use because we seem to feel like it's our god given right or something. I'm not sure why.

I'm going to serial post now because there's lots I want to respond to and this post will get too long.

[tracilicious]

Most of my environmental tips boil down to one underlying principal:

Don't confuse "discomfort" as a synonym for "anything less than complete, perfect comfort." Much of our energy inefficience comes from never wanting to experience any inconvenience or discomfort where anything less than perfect comfort is labelled as uncomfortable and anything less than perfect convenience is labelled as inconvenient. Thus we want every gadget to do everything that might concievably be wanted and we want it to do it immediately. Therefore we frequently end up making purchases based on the less than 1% outlying anomolies than for the 99% standard uses.



I think this is an extremely good principle.

The transportation thing is frustrating to me. I would love to have a newer hybrid or electric car. But being four people living on one income, it isn't going to happen anytime soon. I drive my gas guzzling Jeep Cherokee because that's what I have. It's what I could afford at the time and it isn't getting replaced anytime soon. Same with solar panels. As soon as I get a spare $10,000 I'll pop one right onto the roof.

Our public transportation system is ridiculous. It takes several hours to get 15 miles away. Totally not an option. Michael will be getting a motorcycle in the next few months though, which will be much more efficient for him.

I think the more effort thing definitely applies to the way people eat. Organic locally grown produce has huge environmental benefits (not to mention health benefits). It costs a bit more, but all you need to do is give up packaged food in most cases to even out your grocery bill. The busiest person can set aside a few hours a week and prepare meals and freeze them. It's all time management and priorities.

[tracilicious]

My biggest environmental pet peeve are all the recent disposable cleaning cloths - Swiffer, Clorox wipes, etc. Not only are you throwing away tons of fabric but those things are loaded with chemicals. I use rags when I can and save paper towels for truly nasty jobs.

The wipes also enforce the idea that every surface in the house should be sanitized. The commercials I'm seeing for these products frighten me - wiping children's toys, wiping the baby's play area, wiping every piece of food... I do not want an absolutely sanitary life for my kids, I want their bodies to be able to fight disease by themselves. I think this ties in to what Alex was talking about: overkill. Not to mention OCD.


I totally agree. Especially when they show them wiping toys with the bleach cloths. We don't want our kids to get sick, so let's wipe pesticides on their toys! Good idea. :rolleyes: Soap does a fine job of cleaning most things. If you compare disinfectant soap to regular soap there is only a miniscule amount of difference as far as germ elimination.

The paper towel thing I totally need to work on. They are hard to give up.

[tracilicious]

We do recycle regularly but we don't compost (something I'd like to start doing). I always snip my 6-pack holders.




Our town is giving away free compost bins right now. I need to call and get one. We were doing earthworm composting for a while, but I now have a bin of 1000+ dead earthworms in my garage. :blush:

I'm going to do a big above ground garden this year, but that's more for hobby reasons than earth wise reasons.

[Stan4dSteph]

I totally agree. Especially when they show them wiping toys with the bleach cloths. We don't want our kids to get sick, so let's wipe pesticides on their toys! Good idea.Bleach is a great disinfectant, but I wouldn't call it a pesticide. I love the smell of bleach. To me it equals clean. I do agree about the disposable wipes though. I need to get some microfiber cloths at the store to use instead of disposables.

[Matterhorn Fan]

I'm going to do a big above ground garden this year, but that's more for hobby reasons than earth wise reasons.You can grow your own veggies and herbs!

[tracilicious]

Bleach is a great disinfectant, but I wouldn't call it a pesticide. I love the smell of bleach. To me it equals clean. I do agree about the disposable wipes though. I need to get some microfiber cloths at the store to use instead of disposables.

Bleach is a registered pesticide. (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/bleachfactsheet.htm)

If I recall, bleach has been linked to asthma and other health problems. You don't need to completely eliminate bacteria to get things clean. Vinegar kills germs really really well. A naturalish company just came out with the first non-bleach cleaner that is approved for use in hospitals. It kills the HIV simplex virus. It's made with thyme oil. Looks promising. Bleach is murder on the environment.

ETA: Wikipedia on bleach: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach)

A problem with chlorine is that it reacts with organic material to form trihalomethanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trihalomethane) like chloroform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform), which is a well known carcinogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen). The benefit of using chlorine to kill the germs in drinking water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_water) far outweighs any risk from the tiny trace of chloroform in treated drinking water. However, the use of bleach in industrial processes such as paper bleaching, with its attendant production of organochlorine-persistent organic pollutants (including dioxins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxins)), does not have any such clear benefit.
Chlorine is a respiratory irritant. It also attacks mucus membranes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucus_membrane) and burns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_%28injury%29) the skin. As little as 3.5 ppm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_per_million) can be detected as an odor, and 1000 ppm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_per_million) is likely to be fatal after a few deep breaths. Exposure to chlorine should not exceed 0.5 ppm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_per_million) (8-hour time-weighted average - 40 hour week).
Another hazard is the formation of acrid chloramine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine) fumes when hypochlorite bleach comes into contact with ammonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia) or urine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine), which, though not nearly as dangerous as chlorine, can cause severe respiratory distress.

[Stan4dSteph]

I try to buy things in larger packages, but I admit that I buy individually packaged foods for convenience.

[Matterhorn Fan]

I read (in this month's Vegetarian Times, I think) that Stonyfield Farms is recycling their yogurt cups to make toothbrushes and razor handles. Of course, you have to mail the cups to them.

[BarTopDancer]

The biggest thing I've done recently is get rid of my Explorer and bought a compact car. I didn't do it to be greener persay, but I was tired of how much it was costing me to fill up and it felt wasteful to drive. And even after 2 years of payments, the car is cheaper than the Explorer.

I re-use paper bags and recycle plastic bags. When possible boxes are re-used for moving or storage.

But I've read and heard (too tired looking for links) that recycling just causes more pollution. The recycling plants release fumes and waste that would not be there if they were not in operation.

[Alex]

Bleach is a registered pesticide. (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/bleachfactsheet.htm)

It is an antimicrobrial pesticide which is not what most people mean when they say pesticide. Vinegar also is an antimicrobial pesticide (http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_044001.htm).

[Matterhorn Fan]

But I've read and heard (too tired looking for links) that recycling just causes more pollution. The recycling plants release fumes and waste that would not be there if they were not in operation.
But are those fumes and waste better or worse than having more trash in the landfills?

[Alex]

Everything pretty much involves some pollution. The question that has to be asked is not "does this produce no pollution\damage" but "does this produce less pollution\damage than the alternative."

[€uroMeinke]

I'm fine with Nuclear power in it's various incanations, but I think having a mix of power sources is the best way to go - they all have their benefits and problems, diversity spreads the risk.

[BarTopDancer]

But are those fumes and waste better or worse than having more trash in the landfills?

From what I understand (and this was just third hand from a classmate whose uncle works in enviro studies) some is better off in the ground but it's a push in the end.

And I hate those commercials showing parents sanatizing their kids world. One of the reasons we (my parnets and I) believe that I rarely get sick is because I was exposed to germs, allowed to get dirty and there wasn't this craze of anti-bacterial products on the market.

It's next to impossible to find anti-bacterial hand soap now. And I don't need anti-bacterial laundry soap either.

[Matterhorn Fan]

I buy hand-made soaps. They're not anti-bacterial.

I do keep anti-bacterial hand soap in the kitchen. It just makes sense after handling raw eggs. One bottle lasts a long time--I've been working on this crappy Cocunut Lime Verbena for ages now. It stinks.

[Kevy Baby]

Remember that paper is a renewable resource and is far more recyclable and biodegradable than plastic .

We are REALLY bad about conserving energy at out home. We now have 18 bearded dragons spread amongst 6 enclosures. Each enclosure has a flourescent UB B lamp and a basking (read: heat) lamp. Not only does this use a lot of energy, but also heats up the house which causes us to run the AC more.

[Not Afraid]

I believe all Method brand products don't have the anit-bacterial additive. At least their print ad said so.

[BarTopDancer]

Thanks Lisa! I shall check out Method the next time I go to Target. Which will be soon.

[Not Afraid]

Here's a link to their web site. (http://www.methodhome.com/)

[Moonliner]

Personally, I think fuel cells are the pipe dream that has derailed sensible discussion into alternative fuels.
How can you justify calling fuel cells a pipe dream? They have been used successfully as far back as the Apollo program. They are currently used in business (http://news.com.com/2100-1033_3-6102552.html) around (http://www.ocean.edu/campus/physical_plant/sub_fuel.htm)the (http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp008414.jsp)world (http://www.nyserda.org/Press_Releases/PressRelease.asp?i=126&d=2006)to great effect. Did you think they were just for cars?


And I don't care about big business providing the power I'd just prefer we move from sources of power that destroy the environment by design to a source of power that only does significant damage to the environment by accident.

There will still be a need for big business energy, I don't say self generated power is for everyone, I just want it for me and large numbers of my fellow earth dwellers.



There's a guy in New Jersey that uses solar power to provide all of the electricity he needs for his home. He then uses the excess solar power for electrolysis to power fuel cells that run his home and car through the long winter when sunshine is rare and its energy reduced. To store enough hydrogen to power his fuel cells for 3 1/2 months required 10 1,000 gallon tanks. Fortunately he has 12 acres of land on which to put all of these solar panels and gas tanks.
Actually you mean there is a guy in New Jersey that wants (http://groovygreen.com/groove/?cat=13) to provide electricity for his home. He is not currently producing any Hydrogen. His problem with the 10-1,000 gallon tanks is NOT the fuel cell, it's the generation of the Hydrogen. If you will look back to my first post on this issue, you will see that I clearly state that currently the missing part of the solar-to-hydrogen-to-fuel cell equation is the technology to efficiently separate out hydrogen from water using the energy found in the visible part of the spectrum. Your New Jersey friend with his expensive "Electrolyzer" for generating hydrogen is definitely old school. It's inefficient and slow. You will note that his 10 takes are all low pressure which is why he needs so many. Why are they low pressure? Because under his plan he does not get enough energy to run a pump to pressurize the gas. So in short this guy is barking up the wrong tree but it's not the fault of the fuel cell, it's the current gas extraction technology limit that's the problem.



In most urban and suburban areas this simply wouldn't work without massive infrastructural redesigns. For example....,

Again, you are stuck thinking about current technology for gas extraction. You don't need acres of solar cells if you have even a 10 percent performance level direct solar to hydrogen process (http://www.physorg.com/news1309.html)

Will everyone generate their own power? Of course not. Your typical office tower or factory will not be able to create it's own energy. Am I saying we should only focus on hydrogen generation? No. However it is a technology that could go a very long way towards solving our energy needs in a clean environment friendly way.

[Alex]

Fuel cells are not a pipe dream. Widespread individual use of the fuel cells and energy production is, in my opinion, the pipe dream.

Like I said, I'm all for it for anybody willing to go to the trouble has my full support. But I just don't see it as a significant source of relief for the current problems with our electrical generation.

I'm also not saying that a resumption of nuclear development will solve all of the problems, but they are solutions in different realms. Hydroelectric is pretty much overdeveloped in this country. People aren't going to like what they see if we make any attempt to fully develop solar and wind energy (though I generally support efforts to do so) and it is only irrational fear that keeps us from using nuclear.

But the improved solar generation you want is probably still a decade or more away (and has been promised as being "just a decade away" for the last 30 years) and even then only a small minority of people have both the space and the willingness (let alone "Los Angeles light conditions") to do it.

Rather than reducing demand for coal-fired electricity (which is all that would happen, best case, with individual generation) I'd rather convert the coal-fire to nuclear as well.

[flippyshark]

Shifting to a sub-topic: If I know that my trash is being taken to a landfill far from any oceans, do I still have to cut my six-pack holders?

And by extension, if I know that my trash is being dumped in the ocean, is snipping my six-pack holders really enough? Shouldn't I be far more worried about all the trash being dumped in the ocean?

And as long as I'm wondering, are there any studies or reports that show six pack holders are a significant threat? I certainly understand when anglers are advised not to discard such items in the areas they are fishing in - that's common sense. But is there really a documented crisis stemming from the holders that most of us are tossing in the trash? (And shouldn't these plastic doohickeys be going into recycle bins anyway?)

[Moonliner]

Shifting to a sub-topic: If I know that my trash is being taken to a landfill far from any oceans, do I still have to cut my six-pack holders?



Is it also going far from any lake, stream, river or creek? Also don't forget that birds can have the same problem as fish. So it also better be going where there are no birds.

And as long as I'm wondering, are there any studies or reports that show six pack holders are a significant threat?

No. It's just a feel good thing. I think my wife started it.

[Alex]

Mr. Cecil Adams on cutting six pack rings (http://www.ringleader.com/quest/menu/resources/ask_cecil.html).

[Not Afraid]

All it took for me to cut six pack rings was a picture of a pelican with his beak tied shut by a ring. I love pelicans.

[flippyshark]

Thanks, Alex. That was interesting.

It doesn't sound as though I need to make ring-cutting a priority, but I like the idea of going to the beach and filling grocery bags with trash. (It's an excuse to go to the beach.) Anyone here on the East Coast game?

In truth, I don't buy beer or soda, or anything in six-packs, so it's kinda moot.

[Stan4dSteph]

It doesn't sound as though I need to make ring-cutting a priority, but I like the idea of going to the beach and filling grocery bags with trash. (It's an excuse to go to the beach.) Anyone here on the East Coast game?Yes, but I think I'm very far north of you.

[alphabassettgrrl]

We try to reduce waste of all kinds. If something comes in a package or without packaging, give me the one that's naked. I am continually amazed at how much trash people throw out. I don't want to buy that much stuff!

In-town transportation is usually by bicycle now that hubby and I have good ones. The city is only about 4 miles from one end to the other, and 2-3 miles the other direction wide. Easily covered on a bike. I'm starting school in... less than a week, which is also bike distance, 4.5 miles from the house.

I agree with one of the early posters (Alex?) who said if you buy a car, buy one for most of your needs and deal with the occasional other need in some other way. I was just trying to convince my mother she could rent a truck or van on those few occasions when she needs it; she's tired of paying for gas but doesn't want to give up the hauling capacity. She never likes my ideas, LOL.

A lot of the consumption is driven by marketers, who need to sell ever-increasing amounts of product, whether the consumer actually needs them or not. I hate the hype. I don't actually need that much stuff, so I don't buy much. If we buy less, we throw less away. That means less in landfills, less to recycle, and more money to save for the things that really matter.

[Ghoulish Delight]

After the move, I'll be considering public transit for commuting. Currently, it's infeesible. Due to quirks of the OCTA system, my current 15 minute driving commute would turn into an approximately 2.5 hours (each way!) marathon on public transit. Simply unmanageable.

But from the new place, an auto-commute would be around 40 minutes, while a bus communte would be around 1:15. That's a much more reasonable exchange rate. I even toyed with the idea of bringing my bike along for the lunch commute, but my options within non-sweating bike distance are limited, so I don't think it'll buy me much. I'd just pack lunches, bum rides, and drive on days that I need to run errands. I might, however, consider a skateboard just to speed up the pedestrian transit to and from bus stops.

[alphabassettgrrl]

GD, you'd be surprised how far you can get in just a few minutes on a bike. In twenty minutes, I can be nearly three miles away. And that's with not sweating too much.

I think we've found our next car- http://www.commutercars.com/

They're cute! Easy to park, and electric. Of course, we still haven't solved the problem of how to get electricity, but at least it's not burning gas. It uses little tiny tires, too, so those use less resources to produce.

[Scrooge McSam]

You will note that his 10 takes are all low pressure which is why he needs so many. Why are they low pressure? Because under his plan he does not get enough energy to run a pump to pressurize the gas. So in short this guy is barking up the wrong tree but it's not the fault of the fuel cell, it's the current gas extraction technology limit that's the problem.

Moonie,

I know you follow this the way I do, so I wanted to be sure you saw this new high pressure electrolysis and storage system.

The system unveiled at Chewonki uses renewable power — from solar panels atop the center and purchases of "green" electricity — to produce hydrogen from water through a process known as electrolysis. New technology that produces the gas at high pressure eliminates the need for a costly compressor.

Developers of the system said it's the nation's first publicly accessible direct high-pressure hydrogen energy system as well as the first complete hydrogen energy system in Maine.

From Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060828/ap_on_sc/hydrogen_project)

[Moonliner]

More news today from the world of big energy:

Chevron and its partners (http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/05/news/companies/chevron_gulf/index.htm?cnn=yes) have successfully extracted pollution from a test well in the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico, an achievement that could be the biggest breakthrough in domestic pollution supplies since the opening of the Alaskan pipeline.

The news sent pollution prices lower, with U.S. light crude for October delivery sinking 69 cents to $68.50 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.


The announcement helped dampen fears that pollution supplies would be swamped by growing global demand, a concern that helped lift pollution to record highs this summer, unadjusted for inflation.


* Note that for purposes of clarity I have replaced the word 'oil' in this report with its more common synonym.