Pan's Labyrinth

[Gemini Cricket]

Saw it today. Totally enjoyed it.

I recommend it. It's heavy but awesome. Awesome sound and visual effects. The acting is womderful, too.

Believe it or not, it's a cross between "Harry Potter: POA" and "Schindler's List". Fantasy but heavy-duty war drama at the same time.

Anyone else see it?

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I saw it. I did not think the mix you refer to in your spoiler worked at all.

Yes, it was imaginative and visually stunning. Yes, it was creepy and depressing. Maybe I should give it another chance, but it didn't rub me the right way.

[Stan4dSteph]

I've seen some clips on TV, and it looks cool. It won't open here for a bit though.

[mousepod]

Loved it. Gotta walk the dogs - more later.

[Gemini Cricket]

I know when I've been to see a good movie when I'm still thinking about it hours later. Good stuff.

[Gemini Cricket]

99% on rottentomatoes.com. That's really good. Haven't seen that in awhile.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm gonna give it another chance. With the knowledge that some of my favorite movies have become so upon the 2nd viewing.

[blueerica]

I really liked the movie... what time/where did you see it at iSm? So few theaters were showing it - I can only imagine we might have been there at the same time. ;)

It's not my favorite, but it was nice to see a movie that's a little different than the re-hashed fare that's usually around.

[innerSpaceman]

Um, I watch it in the comfort of my own home. I have it on DVD.

[Alex]

Watched it today. Liked it quite a bit, though it was a little bit reserved to completely latch onto my psyche.

I though del Toro made one minor misstep at the end but otherwise no significant quibbles.

At the end, when Vidal comes to take away back his son from Ofelia in the labyrinth, he sees (and we see with him) Ofelia simply talking to herself. I would have preferred that she finished her conversation with the faun, it left, and then Vidal showed up.

The reality of the fairy tale is still ambiguous but doing it the way he did tipped it a bit more in the direction of unreal than I'd have preferred.


I also don't like the translation of the movie's title from The Labyrinth of the Faun to Pan's Labyrinth. Pan is a specific Greek god (whose Roman name was Faunus) but so far as I could tell, the faun in the movie was not meant to be the Pan of Greek mythology.

One other comment that occured to me but doesn't really have anything to do with the movie itself. The response to Apocalypto overwhelmingly focused on how violent it was, and psychoanalyzation of Mel Gibson because of it. While there may have been more of it, I think the violence in this is just as brutal and unflinching but other than mentioning whether it is appropriate for children I haven't seen any comment on it.

[Gemini Cricket]

I think it was intentional that her father didn't see the faun. I think it was all in her mind. It's sad, but I think that was intentional. Shrug.

[Alex]

That is certainly a reading of it, but I don't think it was Guillermo del Toro's intent to settle the question. He has been talking a lot lately about film not needing to lay everything out for you, that it is good to be presented with a story and then you go away thinking it out on your own what happened, what it means.

But I have only been catching side conversations since I was avoiding specific spoilers. So if he was trying to answer the question he didn't go quite far enough and I'd prefer ambiguity because it makes it more interesting.

Ambiguity still exists, I just feel like del Toro was "taking sides." And of course, if anybody gets to take a side, it is him, but I don't want him to.

[Gemini Cricket]

I hear ya. I'm not a big fan of films leaving it all up to you. Was it a dream, was it real, etc. I think a filmmaker needs to spell it out. Leaving it up to the audience means many different interpretations, many ways of looking at something. I like it to be clear cut, I like to see the director make a choice. I think he could have gone deeper into it, too. But I'm okay with that scene.

[mousepod]

It didn't bother me that Capt Vidal didn't see the Faun. The Faun was magical (assuming it was real), so he wouldn't have seen it anyway. I liked the "ambiguity" of the story, but prefer to think of it as different perceptions of reality rather than ambiguity. I imagine that the fantasy part of the movie was very real to Ofelia, and the "real" part was true for Mercedes et al.

As far as renaming the movie for Pan, I'm pretty sure that del Toro made that decision - he's fluent in English - though I'm not sure why.

[blueerica]

I wish that I was more versed in the topic of magic and mythology, but...

It doesn't bother me that the Captain can't see the faun. It's not the deciding factor on whether the faun was real or not. Perhaps only open minds can see the 'magic.'

What I thought was interesting was her death. Was the vision of her mother and her father on the throne the culmination of her returning as the princess, or just the hallucinations of a dying girl?

[Alex]

I agree with what the last several people have said. It isn't a deciding factor, just a case of the director taking sides where it isn't (in my opinion) important to do so.

I've found several people now that I'm reading more reviews who viewed it as the del Toro explicitly answering the question (including Mick La Salle of the San Francisco Chronicle).

It just struck me as an unnecessary moment. Since that is pretty much my biggest quible it just highlights how satisfying the movie was.


Steve, is it possible that the subtitles are impacting your ability to enjoy the movie? I know you don't like subtitles.

[blueerica]

Oh yeah, the subtitles...

I was glad that I have a very good understanding of Spanish, particularly Castillian Spanish. Most of the time, I didn't need the subtitles, aside from the occasional "check." However, the subtitles were so white and bright that it distracted from the darkness and subtle coloring of the film.

[Chernabog]

Taken from my post on another board (but I wanna discuss it here!): (Thanks, Steve!!)

OK so I finally watched it this evening and it is definitely one of Guillermo Del Toro's best films -- if you enjoyed this one, I would recommend also renting his "The Devil's Backbone" (which explores similar themes, but more along the lines of a ghost story than of a fantasy).



Pan's Labyrinth was just fantastic, and NOT for the faint of heart. This is a brutal movie in the "real life" elements-- and the fantasy elements are incredibly dark as well. No cutesy characters anywhere, so don't go in expecting any... And definitely do not take your children to see this movie I mean, I've seen a lot worse gore and violence-wise, but it's not a kid's movie at all.



The title is odd, considering the literal spanish translation of El Laberinto del Fauno should be "The Faun's Labyrinth".... there's a faun, but his name isn't Pan. I'm wondering why they did that....



Anyway, what I really liked was the ending of the film - how it was left rather ambiguous whether she had imagined the whole fantasy world or not (though, of course, "It was real" and "it was imaginary" are NOT the only two options!!!).



Guillermo Del Toro himself interprets the film as being all real -- I'm not going to go into the whole thing here, but the best director's interview I have read on the subject is at http://www.twitchfilm.net/archives/008507.html . The director left three little "clues" to let you know that HE thinks the fantasy world is all real (read the interview), but it can be interpreted another way. That's the beauty of this film -- it is so multilayered that you can interpret the symbolism of the characters and the fantasy world for yourself.



There are a lot of idiots on the IMDB board that are talking about... "well, if the director thinks it's real, it's real!!! End of story!!" Sorry, but that is total crap. If you can back up what you say, then the director's intent, while interesting from a filmmaking standpoint, has very little or nothing to do with whether an interpretation is "correct".



Certainly, asking whether it was real or imagined, or some of the fantasy was real, and some imagined, or whether it was all imagined (even the "war" parts), etc. etc. are all valid explorations and can lead to wildly varying, equally valid interpretations.

One thing that had me puzzled until this morning is the question of the key going into a lock that's different than the one the fairies pointed out (in the room with the Pale Man monster). If you're of the interpretation that the fantasy world was real, I think that the "test" in that room was not necessarily to retrieve the object, but to see if she'd simply follow blind faith instead of going by her own instincts. In that respect... she "passed" the second of three tests. She had to come into the third test in a mental state of desperation, which is why the faun disappeared on her after the second test. The fairies that got eaten, as immortal beings (like Ofelia/The Princess) show up in the end, after Ofelia's immortal soul passes the third test and leaves her body.


I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of that part if you thought it was all in her head -- would the pale man represent her stepfather, perhaps? What was happening in that movie that would "parallel" that event? What does the key, or the key in the different lock show?

^^ If you read the spoiler above, definitely check out that link. But not until you've seen the movie!!!

Anyway, go see it, you'll be thinking about it for a while. One of the few films (like Donnie Darko) that I wanted to watch again immediately after viewing.

[Alex]

Oh, and if nothing else, the creature at the feast was pure visual brilliance.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

We just got back from a last holiday hurrah tonight (our flight got delayed so I am one day late back to work.)

And when I can walk out of a movie saying "I found nothing wrong with it," that's pretty remarkable. I don't think that this is a movie that will hover in my few top favorites, but I do think it is one to which I will continually return. What vision! What use of reality/fantasy! What an amazing movie.

And for all of the spoiler warnings... I'll just say that I personally LOVE it when a movie ends ambiguously (and I believe that this one did.) I don't feel the need to have a definite answer, but I love toying with the possibilities.

[innerSpaceman]

Steve, is it possible that the subtitles are impacting your ability to enjoy the movie? I know you don't like subtitles.
Absolutely, they did. No doubt about it. And they will be a problem for me even when I watch the film again, which I haven't had a chance to do ... it's out on loan (my pleasure, ChernaJoe).

I also had a problem with the violence and brutality mixed with even so dark a fantasy world of a child. That's an element that just didn't sit right with me and weirded me out ... but now that I'm aware of it, I'll simply accept the film on its own terms when I get to re-watch it.

[Chernabog]

I also had a problem with the violence and brutality mixed with even so dark a fantasy world of a child. That's an element that just didn't sit right with me and weirded me out ... but now that I'm aware of it, I'll simply accept the film on its own terms when I get to re-watch it.

I think the violence wasn't gratuitous -- the real world needed to be so scary that Ofelia had to try and escape (into the fantasy world, or into her own mind...).

(Plus those old fairy tales are REALLY disgusting, actually)

Again, this is not a happy tra-la-la fairy story.

Though if Tinkerbell got her head gnawed off by the Pale Man, that'd be pretty fuk'n cool ;)

[LSPoorEeyorick]

(Plus those old fairy tales are REALLY disgusting, actually)

I'm pretty squeamish, but I thought that the inclusion of violence was pretty apt BECAUSE of those gorey old tales. Considering Cinderella, in which the stepsisters--in order to fit into the slipper--slice off a toe and a heel, respectively. Or Little Red Riding Hood, which involves first the eating of a human by a bear and then the slicing of a bear by a human. Or Bluebeard, for heaven's sake... which depicts the eighth wife of a rich man entering the one room she's been forbidden from entering-- and instead of a magical rose or something lovely, discovers the seven previous wives hanging on the walls and a floor soaked in blood.

In no terms is this a children's fairy tale, even if it revolves around a child. But I rather think that fairy tales weren't really for children in the first place.

[Gemini Cricket]

An interesting article re: "Pan's Labyrinth" from CNN...
"I do think there is far more an immoral position in creating a movie like 'Free Willy,' where I'm telling a kid, you know, 'If you swim next to a ... killer whale, she'll become your friend.' ... No! She will eat your ... guts and spit you out!"
Del Toro continues in a more reflective vein: "If my child watches my movies by accident, they will not try to think the world is a safe place, which it's not. Children should know the dangers of the world and not be neurotically isolated from them."
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/03/film.guillermo.deltoro.ap/index.html)

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, I quite agree. But the movie's combination of real-world horror and imaginary worlds jarred me nonetheless.

That fairy tales of old had horror elements does not convince me it's right for modern audiences, or for my tastes ... which are not usually squeemish. But I think excising the nasty bits from the Brothers Grimm was a masterstroke by Disney and others who have adapted ancient fairy tales for modern films.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Then it's just a matter of taste. I'm not particularly horror-prone, but I love the gruesome nature of the original fairy tales. Thus, I loved Pan. Sure, Disney made them acceptable for Audiences of All Ages. But they're not really fairy tales.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I haven't really stopped thinking about it since I saw it two days ago and I've had some seriously whacked (and wonderfully horrific) dreams since.

With my love of fairy tales, mythology, fantasy and horror I was pretty sure I'd love the film, and I loved it more than I even expected. I think it's one of the best films ever made, regardless of genre, with one of the most honest, sincere and beautiful performances by a child actress. And the supporting adults, particularly Sergi López and Maribel Verdú. (I hardly recognized him from Dirty Pretty Things, or her from Y Tu Mama Tambien) were remarkable.

From the moment the narrator's voice was heard, I was hooked. So lyrical. The story immediately took route in my spine.

Magic was her way of escape (however you want to interpret its realness), but the film wasn't escapist at all. The fantasy world was as frightening as Franco's Spain.

And though I can fully accept Ofelia's fantasy as being real, I prefer my gut reaction, which was that it all came from her imagination, her return to the Underworld being the last thought she had in death. I can see it both ways, and both are supported, but my way of thinking - not being spiritual or religious, but quite the escapist - the sadder reality works better for me. Her story was a tragedy, though the film still ends uplifting. Because whether or not I believe the fantasy as real, her character did. And she believed she was returned home and reunited with her family...so she was. I still mourned her death.

It was a brutal and beautiful film. Haunting score. A perfect surrealist fantasy. I found no fault with the script, the art, the history or the performances. I was in awe. GDT is my BFF 4-eva!

[mousepod]

After watching his Spanish-language films (Chronos, Devil's Backbone, Pan's Labyrinth) - I spent a couple hours yesterday watching the director's cut of Hellboy. Now, I saw Hellboy in the theater and liked it, but the combination of the extra 12 minutes plus my recent schooling in the GDT language of film had me loving it. I'm just about ready to revisit the mediocre (my original feelings) Mimic and Blade II - damn.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I'm pretty squeamish, but I thought that the inclusion of violence was pretty apt BECAUSE of those gorey old tales. Considering Cinderella, in which the stepsisters--in order to fit into the slipper--slice off a toe and a heel, respectively. Or Little Red Riding Hood, which involves first the eating of a human by a bear and then the slicing of a bear by a human. Or Bluebeard, for heaven's sake... which depicts the eighth wife of a rich man entering the one room she's been forbidden from entering-- and instead of a magical rose or something lovely, discovers the seven previous wives hanging on the walls and a floor soaked in blood.

In no terms is this a children's fairy tale, even if it revolves around a child. But I rather think that fairy tales weren't really for children in the first place.

I actually wonder if the earliest tales were anything but stories for all ages. I can't say if spoken word was censored around the campfire when these tales were first spun. Be something to look into, anyway. Regardless, they were always dark and they were always meant to stimulate our most base and terrible fears. I'd probably prefer the Victorians hands kept out of the creepy cookie jar when they updated some of those tales. Then again, the more versions the merrier. I like my dark and my Disney Cinderellas.

[Prudence]

I actually wonder if the earliest tales were anything but stories for all ages. I can't say if spoken word was censored around the campfire when these tales were first spun. Be something to look into, anyway. Regardless, they were always dark and they were always meant to stimulate our most base and terrible fears.

According to some theorists, the traditional, dark fairy tales are representative of rites of passage, transitioning into adulthood. I can't remember all the components, but there are elements like the quest, the first "test" that is a form of aid in disguise (like baba yaga) that provides the item or information the hero/ine will ultimately need to be successful. I wish I knew where the hell my notes on this were.

[mousepod]

After EH1812 and Pru's comments above, I think tonight I will watch The Company of Wolves. Dark fantasy, fairy tales... and a nude scene from Danielle Dax.

[Alex]

I'm just about ready to revisit the mediocre (my original feelings) Mimic and Blade II - damn.

No, though visually interesting both still sucked.

[Not Afraid]

After EH1812 and Pru's comments above, I think tonight I will watch The Company of Wolves. Dark fantasy, fairy tales... and a nude scene from Danielle Dax.

I LOVE that film and thought of it when Heidi and I ware discussing the broad concept of Pan on IM.

And Danielle Dax is cool. :)

[€uroMeinke]

I think we need to do some folktale readings sometime in the not to distant future. Perhaps combined with a camping trip? or just a quiet gathering of the folklore inclined. Lisa and I have a good collection to chose from.

[lizziebith]

Attracted and intrigued.

[Not Afraid]

Hopefully we will get to see this tomorrow.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I wish I knew where the hell my notes on this were.

Me, too! Find those notes!

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

After EH1812 and Pru's comments above, I think tonight I will watch The Company of Wolves. Dark fantasy, fairy tales... and a nude scene from Danielle Dax.

Have you read Angela Carter? I enjoy the movie, but the short stories it's based on? Nothing beats 'em. Great googly moogly, they are good. And get the pulse racing. Mmmmm.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I watched it last night, it fell into the same sort of category as "Dreamchild," or "City of Lost Children" for me. I enjoyed it, but it didn't send me into raptures.

[€uroMeinke]

We saw it yesterday and loved it. I was worried at first that the theater audience would ruin the experience - there were scores of murmurs as the film started and people realized that it was in Spanish with subtitles, but the theater quickly grew silent which is probably testament to the power of the story in this film.

Though I probably agree more with EH1812's interpretation, I tend to prefer ambiguity in my films. I think it important to remember when looking at the whole fantasy/reality question, is that it all plays out within the fiction of a film, and in this film there are two different worlds and the inhabitants of each of those worlds view what happens in the end differently.

[innerSpaceman]

I think we need to do some folktale readings sometime in the not to distant future. Perhaps ... a quiet gathering of the folklore inclined.
Hahaha, would this be akin our "salon" idea from last year that was so charming, though not repeated?

[€uroMeinke]

Hahaha, would this be akin our "salon" idea from last year that was so charming, though not repeated?


Of course, the truth is we do it all the time, just without the cumbersome structure - I am after all an anarchist at heart (one who does have a counter-intuitive love of ritual). So it will happen, though perhaps not as envisioned...
:cool:

[RStar]

I saw it tonight as well. I had to see it at The Block because it wasn't playing at DTD. There is a distinct difference in audiences in the two theaters. We chose to go early as the teen crowd at The Block realy gets rowdy in the evening, but still durring the 4:00 showing they were fairly vocal (but not in a distracting way). There were a few groans here and there, but at times at The Block they will shout at the screan and even say things durring the credits and I feel like I'm at the Rocky Horror Picture Show or something!

I liked the film, and though I didn't know it was in Spanish and I, like ISM disslike having to read durring a movie, still enjoyed it. I tended to get just what the director intended (evedently) so it worked for me. I was a bit uncomfortable with the violence at times as that's not my piece of cake ( Saw just about did me in:eek: ) but it was real. I mean it WAS a war....

The special effects were great, acting good, score fantastic. Dark and even a little depressing, a fantasy for adults. I heard it was compared to The wizard of Oz, though I don't get that connection....

[Not Afraid]

We saw it as few days ago and I've been thinking about it ever since.

I finially read all of the spoilers here (but haven't read the interview Chernie linked to yet.)

I interpreted the fantasy part of the story as a creation of Ofelia as an alternate and better situation than where she was residing in reality. At one point Captain Vidal and the Faun actually emit the exact same words (about obediance). I think that's when I became aware that these two places were parellel universes - one reality and one her twist on that reality. The Faun being her challenger that we was able to conquor and achieve some good - a choice she didn't seem to have in her reality.

However, I like the fact that is is a possible interpretation but yet there is still a lot of ambiguity. Things don't line up nicey and I prefer that over having everything all wrapped up in a neat package that you never have to think about again.

I LOVED the fairy-eating monster. He was straight out of mythology and fairy tales with a twist. He didn't diasppoint. The Faun, however, was my least favorite character to watch. He was just too mechanical - a mish mash of all sort of different contemporary fantasy character archtypes. There was some alien mixed with some War of the Worlds monster with a bit of Yoda thrown in and a dash of a few other comtemporary creations. I found him to be way too distracting for my tastes.

I spent a great deal of time during certain sequences with my hands over my eyes.

[€uroMeinke]

I've also been thinking about the fantasy/reality elements

In the context of the film, both worlds are a fantasy, a fiction of cinema and thus equal in this deconstructed concept. I think our interpretation reveals more about our selves as the film poses an interesting question as to why anyone would chose to live in the world of reality full of pain, suffering, and death when another world (heaven/underworld) exists, or can be willed into existence (faith/belief). I think it also interesting to note that in Franco's Spain, the Fascists win, so even the brief victory/justice in the real world of the film are fleating

[RStar]

Wow, you guys are too deep for me.

It was a movie and I liked it. :D ;)

Oh, look- this is my 1,000 post. :snap:

I guess I'm a looser now, huh?

[mousepod]

Here's a neat article (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/www.finaldraft.com/mm_media/mm_newsletters/070109script/script-pans.pdf) about Pan's Labyrinth written by GDT.

[Gemini Cricket]

Here's a neat article (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/www.finaldraft.com/mm_media/mm_newsletters/070109script/script-pans.pdf) about Pan's Labyrinth written by GDT.
I'm getting "Page not found"...

[mousepod]

Hmmmm... it links directly to the pdf for me.

PM me if you can't get it and I'll email it to you.

[Gemini Cricket]

I got it to work by cutting and pasting the address from the error page.
:)

[innerSpaceman]

Interesting article. I'm glad I got to read it before seeing the film again (which wouldn't have happened if the screener hadn't been borrowed by yet another friend before I could get a chance at a 2nd viewing).

[Gemini Cricket]

Swiped your copy is more like it.
;)

[innerSpaceman]

Well, having finally seen it again ... it is indeed a lovely, poinant, moving and beautiful film ... full of magic, but - alas - so full of sadness. Waaaah.

[Disneyphile]

Ken and I finally went to see it, and LOVED it. I haven't been that moved and captivated by a film since Lord of the Rings.

I hope it takes many awards. It deserves to win every nomination. :snap:

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Predictions are that it won't get much beyond foreign film. Apparently it was released too late and early buzz wasn't enough to get guild or press to see it before they finished their awards. And that's really too bad... poor planning on the promotional staff's part, IMO-- it was one of the best movies I've seen in quite awhile.

[mousepod]

They really had no idea how to market the film. When Heather and I went on the first day, they handed out questionnaires asking us what TV shows we watch, what websites we visit, etc. I guess a few other people filled in similar responses, because a week later there were ads for it on The Daily Show.

[innerSpaceman]

Despite that, the producers and studio are thrilled it's doing as well as it is ... phenomenal and unexpected for a foreign language film.


Speaking of which, I like that the Golden Globes allow U.S.-produced movies to compete for Best Foreign Language Film. I think it was the first time I had missed only one of the nominees, instead of having seen only one of the nominees.

[Not Afraid]

Despite that, the producers and studio are thrilled it's doing as well as it is ... phenomenal and unexpected for a foreign language film.


Yeah, because the people in the theater I was a didn't know it was in Spanish.:rolleyes:

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

So, I saw the film last night and what has been said by many here rings true to me. It's a briliant film full of vision unlike anything I've seen in a while. I think it's a beautiful fairytale that reminded me alot of Alice In Wonderland.

9 bornieo's out of 10