Help Justify Advanced Placement

[Moonliner]

My son wants to take honors Chemistry as a High School Freshman. To get into the class he has to write a letter saying why he should be allowed to take it.

While I like the general concept of presenting the class as something you have to earn I'm coming up a bit blank with what to write other than highlighting his current excellent class work (all A's...)

Any suggestions?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I presume he is on a track towards college? I'd mention that he feels that taking the honors class offers him the best opportunity to be an attractive candidate for any college he'd choose to apply to.

[Prudence]

And also the usual stuff about wanting to challenge himself.

[CoasterMatt]

Don't forget to slip in a Benjamin or two... ;)

[Alex]

What is the route they want him in instead? Is it just a standard chemistry class or is he jumping the standard sciences sequence? In my high school the standard sequence was earth sciences, biology, chemistry, physics and I had to argue my way out of it to get earth sciences, chemistry/physics, AP chemistry/physics, independent study chemistry/physics.

The argument would be different depending what which you're trying to justify.

That said, I can't think of how to justify Advanced Placement (assuming you mean an actual AP-test taking class) since the idea that those courses are in any way college equivalent is a joke.

[Prudence]

That said, I can't think of how to justify Advanced Placement (assuming you mean an actual AP-test taking class) since the idea that those courses are in any way college equivalent is a joke.

Indeed. My AP classes were far more advanced than their college level equivalents.

[Alex]

Then you're experience was the opposite of mine. Six AP classes, six passed AP tests and not one a particularly useful educational experience.

They were better in the sciences but the humanities one were just awful.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Then you're experience was the opposite of mine. Six AP classes, six passed AP tests and not one a particularly useful educational experience.

They were better in the sciences but the humanities one were just awful.Are you kidding? Thanks to my AP English experience, I refined my BS skills to such a fine degree that I was able to show up to my first college humanities final an hour late, finish on time, and still receive a near perfect score. And even in the technical world, those same BS skills allow me to churn out plans, reports, proposals, etc. with no effort but better results than 99% of my coworkers (one manager tried to get our whole department to adopt the format from a report I threw together in an hour).

Best life skill I ever learned. Though I suppose that started in elementary school. It seems that through my whole educational career I had teachers that stressed the importance of being able to synthesize thoughts and data into an organized format.

So while I learned next to nothing about the books I read in AP English, I definitely considered it a worthwhile experience.

Of course, I also took 14 AP exams, so I'm a little crazy.

[Prudence]

I got community college credit for my AP-level classes, so I'm not sure how much that changes things. But my honors-level humanities seminars freshman year weren't any harder than my high school Senior English classes. Actually, they were much easier. And the science classes? College level was maybe close to my jr. high classes? My history class started the quarter teaching us how to write paragraphs. (And not as an advances writing refinement concept.) Our final paper for that class was to be 5 double-spaced pages - using only our 8th grade level textbook as a source.

[€uroMeinke]

If he doesn't get into the AP Chemistry class, he'll have to learn it on the streets by making meth out of cold medicine down in the basement.

[DisneyFan25863]

My son wants to take honors Chemistry as a High School Freshman. To get into the class he has to write a letter saying why he should be allowed to take it.

While I like the general concept of presenting the class as something you have to earn I'm coming up a bit blank with what to write other than highlighting his current excellent class work (all A's...)

Any suggestions?

Is it Honors Chemistry or AP Chemistry? They are two COMPLETELY different courses. Honors Chemistry is the same as regular chemistry except it goes at a slightly faster pace and goes a little deeper into the subject. AP Chemistry, on the other hand, is a MUCH harder course that pack an entire extra semester of material in the class. I took the AP Chemistry exam last year after only taking Honors Chemistry, and I had never even learned half the material on the test (they don't offer AP Chem at my school).

Chemistry is hard. REALLY hard. Lot's of math and abstract thinking, especially when you are just getting to learn it.

Can he apply for another AP science course instead? AP Biology is a good entry-level AP science course, as it builds upon what he learned in 7th grade. AP Enviromental Science is also considered an "easy" AP course.

What math is he going to be in next year? That should also impact his decision. If he is going to be in a more advanced math class (either Honors Geometry or Algebra II/Trig as a freshmen) then he could probably handle the AP coursework. Regardless, it is a BIG step up from anything he had in Jr. High. Lots of notes and writing, and if he falls behind it is REALLY hard to work back up.

[Strangler Lewis]

14 AP tests? There aren't that many subjects in the whole world. I took four, and I think our school might have offered AP chemistry. Or maybe the teacher was in jail by then. I don't remember.

I am ambivalent about the whole AP experience. I got four 5s, but, except for biology, I'm not sure I was better off having "AP'ed out" of various college requirements. Calculus was a joke. I got a D second semester of senior year because my mind was on other things and then taught myself the whole thing in the week or two before the test. AP history was mildly entertaining, primarily because the teacher generally showed up loaded, but I don't recall too many vigorous discussions. AP English was great. However, I can't say that the class, or my other English classes, prepared me for college. I got a lot of A's because I enjoyed the work and had clever things to say. When I got to Berkeley, I took a lot of beatings initially because I had not mastered the IRAC method of writing. That was a humbling, but probably necessary, experience.

[€uroMeinke]

IRAC? What the heck is that?

[€uroMeinke]

Oh and the combo of AP and credits from local uni taken in my senior year enabled me to graduate a semester early - when the money ran out, so I appreciated that.

[Ghoulish Delight]

He's on the east coast, "AP" and "Honors" don't necessarily correlate to the same thing as they do here. AP exams don't exist everywhere. I'm blanking on the name of the other popular one ("ACE"? "ACT"?).

[Not Afraid]

IRAC? What the heck is that?

Insecticide Resistance Action Committee (IRAC)

[Strangler Lewis]

Introduction
Rule
Analysis
Conclusion

Hmm. Maybe that was from law school. But you get my drift. Thesis statements, organized paragraphs, orderly transitions. Not my strong suit at the time.

[€uroMeinke]

Introduction
Rule
Analysis
Conclusion

Hmm. Maybe that was from law school. But you get my drift. Thesis statements, organized paragraphs, orderly transitions. Not my strong suit at the time.

Ah yes, and I've been unlearning it ever since

PS - I believe the arrest came after we graduated, I'm pretty sure we did the Chemistry AP Test

[Ghoulish Delight]

14 AP tests? There aren't that many subjects in the whole world. I took four, and I think our school might have offered AP chemistry. Or maybe the teacher was in jail by then. I don't remember.
Well, to be fair I include both the mechanics and the E&M versions of the physics exam (each really only half an exam), same with macro vs. micro econ. But yeah, 14. I passed 11 of them.

And it hardly got me out of anything in college due to the major I selected. It did however give me instant sophomore status which gave me priority in registering for my classes. Also, beyond that...I'm afraid of no test. After 14 APs, no test can be intimidating (except perhaps bar exams which I've seen break test-takers like me).

[DisneyFan25863]

Introduction
Rule
Analysis
Conclusion

Hmm. Maybe that was from law school. But you get my drift. Thesis statements, organized paragraphs, orderly transitions. Not my strong suit at the time.


You never learned that in AP English? I'm taking AP Language and Composition now, and that was drilled in from the beginning.

AP History is pretty much a joke, though. Our teacher just rants about how unconstitutional the Patriot Act is and how we shouldn't have gone to Iraq, then assigns us an essay on some historical topic that she never addressed.

GD, maybe he is talking about the SAT II Subject tests? Also...did you take all 14 courses or just take tests on subjects you never took a class in?

[Ghoulish Delight]

GD, maybe he is talking about the SAT II Subject tests? I'm guessing he's using "Advanced Placement" in a more literal sense (as in being placed in an advanced class) rather than referring to any test. From what I remember from conversations with other east coasters, they don't have specific classes geared towards the placement exams, whatever they're called (it's not the SAT II's, it's some other acronym test that we don't have in California), they just take honors courses and then take the tests.


Also...did you take all 14 courses or just take tests on subjects you never took a class in?
Micro econ was the only one that I didn't take the course for, I took the course for all the rest.

[Prudence]

Maybe that was from law school.

Definitely from law school. Although it doesn't show up that much for us. Our school is so writing-focused that actually talking about IRAC is seen as a bit simplistic. We basically all know what to do, so when some kiss-up says during exam review, "do you want us to use IRAC?" we tend to look at him (it's always a him) as if he's sprouted a second head. No, not a second head - something really useless. Like a second appendix.

This derail brought to by a lack of sleep, too much grease, and a raging headache.

[Strangler Lewis]

Ah yes, and I've been unlearning it ever since

PS - I believe the arrest came after we graduated, I'm pretty sure we did the Chemistry AP Test

No, I know he was arrested after we graduated. (I just checked the Megan's Law web site, and I can't tell if that's him.)

If you did AP chemistry, you did it without me.

[€uroMeinke]

If you did AP chemistry, you did it without me.

Hmmmm - Damn false memories, don't feel like digging up the records - Maybe it was Biology? Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny, osmosis, ketosis, halitosis and all that skulduggery

[katiesue]

We only had one AP class offered, English. Since our school was a little limited we could take Community College Classes for things not offered. I did Trig and Calculus there for High School Credit (and they also gave me college credit which they weren't supposed to but I'm not telling). This also worked out great because you could take the classes at night or over the summer. By senior year I only had two classes that I actually had to take for credit - the rest was all electives.

[Capt Jack]

My son wants to take honors Chemistry as a High School Freshman. To get into the class he has to write a letter saying why he should be allowed to take it.

Any suggestions?


heres an idea. just a lil note stating

gIve mE wHAt I waNT and I'll gO away


works almost every time :evil:

[3894]

I don't know anything about AP science exams. I do know a lot about how college profs think of the AP English and language exams.

Basically, college Freshman English is a remedial course. If you take the AP English and exam and do well enough, you place out of the remedial Freshman English. No one is saying that AP English is a college-level course. They are saying that Freshman English is not.

See?

[Alex]

At least at the UW, remedial courses were not available for credit (for example, at least back then, calculus was the lowest math course you could take for credit). Some were offered but only to get you up to requirements.

AP tests resulted in college credit from the University of Washington so to some degree they were valuing them above the remedial courses. Of course, I found the English department to be irredeemably horrible so I that still isn't setting the bar high

But then of course I am going to run into problems with any faculty that seemed to worship Foucoult. And then there was that time my TA spent an hour talking about feminist physics and chemistry. That's all irrelevant to AP tests, though. I just can't think about the UW English Department without getting riled all over again.

[Moonliner]

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

We don't seem to have "AP" courses so I think our honors course is basically the same thing. It certainly has a reputation for breaking students and we are in an area with just a few type-A overachievers. Apparently we are, at least in part, the school "Beverly Hills 90210" was based on.

I never watched the show, but if there was a geeky band kid that rode his bike past all the dudes in BMW's that would be mine.

[3894]

AP tests resulted in college credit from the University of Washington so to some degree they were valuing them above the remedial courses.

Or it was a kind of a bribe to lure the trusting lambs to take more courses in that subject matter.

But then of course I am going to run into problems with any faculty that seemed to worship Foucoult.

Foucault. I did a Ph.D. in 20th cen. French Lit at Berkeley and Stanford in the '80's. Foucault, Derrida, Lacan were our holy trinity. Personally, I liked René Girard's stuff a lot better.

[Alex]

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

Out of curiosity, is this a case where you are arguing into the honors class instead of the standard class or that you are arguing into chemistry instead of some other science subject.

It was mentioned before, and while I wouldn't agree that chemistry has a lot of math (at least not in anything covered in high school or the first couple years of general college chemistry) but what math there is does require a solid understanding of algebra and solving some more complex equations

So before jumping into the hard chemistry class as a freshman it is probably good to make sure he can handle the math (and if he can, that is something to emphasize in the letter).

[Moonliner]

Out of curiosity...

We are arguing into honors rather than the standard science curriculum (which includes some chemistry). He is interested because he really liked the chemistry unit earlier this year and because they stressed you have to have good math skills. Math has always been a subject that just clicks for him. Plus only the few get selected so it has a certain cache with his peers.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Plus only the few get selected so it has a certain cache with his peers.I went to summer school between 9th and 10th grade for trig/math analysis due to peer pressure.

[Alex]

If he can solve this for x:

(2x/16)+2.5y = 14y^2 + 1/2z - .8x

If he can calculate the slope of a line that starts at coordinate (3,12) and ends at (16, 3).

If he can calculate the area under that line.

If he can understand why dividing a measured 3.0 grams into four even samples results in four samples weighing 0.8 grams each and not 0.75 grams.

If he understands the math for calculating standard deviation (http://www.med.umkc.edu/tlwbiostats/variability.html) (and, better yet, understands why it is important and what it means).

If he can drum the number 6.02x10^23 into his head and understand what it means.

Then he probably has enough grasp of the math of early chemistry to keep up.

[Moonliner]

If he can solve this for x:

(2x/16)+2.5y = 14y^2 + 1/2z - .8x

If he can calculate the slope of a line that starts at coordinate (3,12) and ends at (16, 3).

If he can calculate the area under that line.

If he can understand why dividing a measured 3.0 grams into four even samples results in four samples weighing 0.8 grams each and not 0.75 grams.

If he understands the math for calculating standard deviation (http://www.med.umkc.edu/tlwbiostats/variability.html) (and, better yet, understands why it is important and what it means).

If he can drum the number 6.02x10^23 into his head and understand what it means.

Then he probably has enough grasp of the math of early chemistry to keep up.

Sounds like fun. I'll run them by him. I'm really not too worried about the math part. He's good at it (for his age) and about half my family (myself not included) are math PhD's so I have a fairly good support group if that's needed.

[DisneyFan25863]

If he can solve this for x:

(2x/16)+2.5y = 14y^2 + 1/2z - .8x

If he can calculate the slope of a line that starts at coordinate (3,12) and ends at (16, 3).

If he can calculate the area under that line.

If he can understand why dividing a measured 3.0 grams into four even samples results in four samples weighing 0.8 grams each and not 0.75 grams.

If he understands the math for calculating standard deviation (http://www.med.umkc.edu/tlwbiostats/variability.html) (and, better yet, understands why it is important and what it means).

If he can drum the number 6.02x10^23 into his head and understand what it means.

Then he probably has enough grasp of the math of early chemistry to keep up.

We never had to calculate standard deviation in chem...

But yeah...if he is going into, for instance, Algebra C next year, Chemistry is not for him. If he has at least completed Geometry he should be fine, though. The math itself isn't hard...the process by which you set up each equation and are able to translate what you see on paper into math can be, though.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If he can drum the number 6.02x10^23 into his head and understand what it means.

I thought you didn't even like avocados.

[Alex]

I had to do it all the time in my high school chemistry classes. Maybe it is one of those things usurped by modern calculators since back in my day we had to do it the sequence by hand (we did have calculators for doing the basic arithmatic.

But it isn't so much whether that specific task is done as the concept is important (and being able to do and understand that math indicates certain fundamental competencies). Even if the students don't actually calculate standard deviation, I have to think that the concept (imprecision of measurement and variability of results) will be discussed quite a bit.

[Alex]

I thought you didn't even like avocados.

That could be why. Calculate molality too many times and maybe it creates an intolerance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

But it isn't so much whether that specific task is done as the concept is important (and being able to do and understand that math indicates certain fundamental competencies). Even if the students don't actually calculate standard deviation, I have to think that the concept (imprecision of measurement and variability of results) will be discussed quite a bit.The actual computation of standard deviation I found easy...it was the whole concept of significant figures that took me a while to be comfortable with for some reason. It makes sense now, but it drove me batty learning it (and I'm glad I mentioned that because now I get the 3 grams -> 4x0.8 grams).

My high school did things a bit backwards. Physics first, then Chem, then Bio. If you were in calculus by the time you were taking physics, then you were allowed to take AP Physics. Not sure what their reasoning was for putting physics first. Chem before bio made perfect sense as AP bio is largely applied chem.

[BarTopDancer]

If he can solve this for x:

(2x/16)+2.5y = 14y^2 + 1/2z - .8x

If he can calculate the slope of a line that starts at coordinate (3,12) and ends at (16, 3).

If he can calculate the area under that line.

If he can understand why dividing a measured 3.0 grams into four even samples results in four samples weighing 0.8 grams each and not 0.75 grams.

If he understands the math for calculating standard deviation (http://www.med.umkc.edu/tlwbiostats/variability.html) (and, better yet, understands why it is important and what it means).

If he can drum the number 6.02x10^23 into his head and understand what it means.

Then he probably has enough grasp of the math of early chemistry to keep up.


And this is the sound of BTD's brain melting.

[DisneyFan25863]

I kinda wish they had offered chem before bio here...AP Bio would have been a lot easier if I had a better understanding of chemistry.

Sig Figs were pretty easy for me...it was anything that dealed with mols that confused me.