Uh...What do you say to this?

[tracilicious]

Tonight we decided to take the kids and head out to a nearby Greek restaurant. The food was fantastic, and while we were tolerating our terribly slow service, a belly dancer came out and started dancing. Indi was fairly mesmerized by this very pretty Greek woman gyrating around the restaurant. He sees customers giving her money (by way of sticking in her skirt) and he wants to do it too. Ok, harmless enough, so we give him a few dollars. He stands in his chair and starts waving his dollar to give her. As soon as she notices him and starts coming over he throws his dollar at her. We explain that people usually just hand it to her or stick it in the rim of her skirt. She comes around for the second dollar and he gladly places it on her hip.

As she dances on the other side of the restaurant he tells me, "Mommy, I really want to see her naked." :eek: A normal human reaction, but he's not even four yet!!!! I was just like, "Oh really" as casually as I possibly could given that I was trying to both not fall out of my chair with shock and not crack up laughing. The next thing he says is, "She wants more money!" So, not wanting to give the impression that I disapproved of his feelings for the woman, I gave him a few more dollars.

She comes over and is standing waiting for him to put the money in, not really paying much attention. I look over just in time to see him stuff the money right in the middle of her very low skirt, in the front. I.e. crotch. Now, I don't think he was intentionally trying to cop a feel (can you use that for crotch, or is it just boobs?), as he doesn't have a clue about sex. I'll just call it primal instinct. He spent the rest of the time watching her and asking for more money. Luckily, I was out of dollars. Then the entire car trip home he talked about the "belly lady" and her bellybutton ring and her tattoo and how he wanted to go back and see her again.

Sigh...I didn't expect it to start this early!

[wendybeth]

Oh, my.:eek:


(You're in for a ride with that one, you are!)

[€uroMeinke]

Visible Mojo for Indi!

(And fond memories of my own first experience at Disneyland's own Tahitian Terrance and the dancers within)

[Strangler Lewis]

When I was a kid, I petted the tail of a bunny at The Playboy Club in New York. I was a good 7 or 8, though.

[Not Afraid]

Nice quote fodder there, Traci!

[3894]

he doesn't have a clue about sex. I'll just call it primal instinct. He spent the rest of the time watching her and asking for more money.

Objectification of women is not a primal instinct. Your son has had an early lesson in the values of our society.

[RStar]

Objectification of women is not a primal instinct. Your son has had an early lesson in the values of our society.Which is to say that our society doens't always have the best intentions with their values, and I would discuss that with your son at times like this.

That girl was just working, and tipping her was just like tipping a waitress, in a way. But the fact that her dancing was enough to make a small child want to see her nakid tells us what was wrong with it.

I would be sure to let him know that it's an exotic part of another culture, but it can be taken two ways. The proper way is that it is an interesting dance. Just like the two ways the human body can be viewed. There's a "dirty" way, and a "clean" way (terms a pre-schooler may understand).

The human body is a beautifull thing, a wonder in all it's atributes. The fact the we have our senses, can reproduce, and the differences between male and female (although he brought this up, it still may be a little soon for the birds and the bees, but you're the best judge of that) makes it a wonder to behold. And viewed that way in art, like the David sculpture, there is nothing wrong with it.

I also wonder why he said that to you in the first place. I'm sure he doesn't understand what sex is, so had he heard it somewhere before? Like with some older boys that looked at a girl and said "Wow, I'd like to see her nakid!" and so he thought it is what should have been said at the time? Or perhaps he was trying to be a "grown up"? However at his age I'm sure he most likely didn't know what he was saying, and I wouldn't worry too much about it as kids do repeat what they hear withought knowing it's meaning. And if things like this continue, I'd gently nudge him the right way with life lessons. That is our job as parents, to mold our children and guide them along the right path.

[mousepod]

When I was in first grade, my friend Matt told me that in Paris, people fvck in the street.

Without having an idea of what the word meant, I asked my Mom, "Do people fvck in the street in Paris?"

She took a deep breath, and said "Jesse, the word fvck is a word that is wrong to use in public. Even though it doesn't describe anything wrong, you should never repeat that word, because some people might be hurt by it.

... and no, they don't."

I was absolutely satisfied with her answer. I knew where babies came from, but the concept of sexuality was foreign to me. I was less concerned with the specifics of what the older kid had told me than the fact that he was wrong.

[€uroMeinke]

Objectification of women is not a primal instinct. Your son has had an early lesson in the values of our society.

Hmmm - I'd like to dig a bit deeper by what you mean here. The "objectification of women" is such a cliché phrase with a lot of negative connotations attached.

If I put my Existentialist hat on, all human interactions are a struggle between being subject and object - and when I'm one I can't be the other. Sure the woman is being an object, but so is the wait staff, the other patrons, and probably at least partly mom and dad.

But I suspect you're going anthropological with this one, which also makes me curious as your comment to me suggests there are cultures where concepts of beauty and desire are not intertwined, or that cultures exist that where there is no objectification and my existentialist self doubts that to be the case.

[Kevy Baby]

Damnit it €, I had this great response outlined in my mind and you have to go and post something that would make my rant response pale by comparison.

In other words, nice post!

[3894]

But I suspect you're going anthropological with this one, which also makes me curious as your comment to me suggests there are cultures where concepts of beauty and desire are not intertwined, or that cultures exist that where there is no objectification and my existentialist self doubts that to be the case.

This activity comes from Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean cultures (esp. Turkey and Syria) and not from Greece. It's culturally inauthentic for a Greek restaurant to hire a belly dancer to go around from one table to another. So our discussion is not about the validity of Greek culture. It's about what this particular restaurant chooses to do to attract customers. This particular restaurant decided that a belly dancer going around to tables would probably increase their business.

We have an inauthetic quasi-Mediterranean practice that reminds Americans of something in their own culture, namely a striptease act where commodification of the body is clearly going on.

Are there cultures where the concept of beauty and desire are not intertwined? Probably not. That's not the question. If attractiveness brings about physical desire, that's one thing. Paying to see the commodification of the body is something else.

[3894]

Please add this to the above ...

Striptease joints are clearly delineated from other kinds of venues. It's too bad that this restaurant decided to combine this two somehow, even though children are being served.

I would have more patience for the bellydancing in the Greek restaurant if the woman had not gone from table to table encouraging tips put in her clothing.

[Alex]

I've never been at a place with bellydancing where you tipped the dancer directly by putting money into her clothing.

Now, I haven't been many places with bellydancing (live performance annoys me while I'm tryingn to have a nice meal since it makes socializing with my tablemates difficult) but this would have surprised me. Is it common?

That said, the appropriate reponse to his question would have been:

"Ask her, if she is fine with it then it is ok since the important thing is that all parties consent. Though if you end up with a disease the cost of the medicine is coming out of your future allowances."

Finally, I don't see what's wrong with objectifying people. It is the only way we can incorporate into our awareness people and things of whom we have no intimate (platonic, of course) personal knowledge. Sexual objectification is just a subsection of that. Of course, acting on objectification is where you run into issues.

It is very much a primal instinct, I'd say. And we do it to hundreds of people in hundreds of ways every day, male (see the Annie Leibowitz thread) or female.

[RStar]

I think the problem is when a society says it is ok to objectifying people, you are lowering their worth as a whole to some people. While that may be the exception for most people, it also says something about our society, don't you think?

The problems arise when people take strict classification of the objectiveness to the extreme. This is more dangerous in my mind with sexuallity, as it often envoles your own body along with someone elses, making it even more personal. This is mostly a problem when it envoles addictions. But this holds true with all addictions, and their inherant objectiveness. I took Oxycodine for my neck nerve pain before my surgery. I classifyed it as a needed medication. Some would call it a high and reclassify it. So, should it be sold legally in bars? No, because it may have an unhealthy response in our society.

If I'm not making much sinse, I opoligize, as I currently have a cold and I'm taking cold medicine. :D

[RStar]

Damnit it €
BTW, how do you make that "C"? I've been wondering that....

Also, Tracy, I hope this thread has helped, as it seems to have wondered into a slightly, though interesting, area. :D

[RStar]

Dang! I don't know why it won't let me edit sometimes. It just sits there with the circle going 'round after I hit enter like it's thinking about it but never does it!

I men't the "E", not C though it looks like a C with two lines in it....

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Dang! I don't know why it won't let me edit sometimes. It just sits there with the circle going 'round after I hit enter like it's thinking about it but never does it!



I have had that same problem a few times. It is frustrating.

[Alex]

Yes, it is the same problem that happens with Quick Reply (there is a thread about it somewhere).

If it does hang, just click the Go Advanced button, remake your change and submit. That page (like the Advanced Post page) does not use Ajax and doesn't seem to have the same problem.

[RStar]

If it does hang, just click the Go Advanced button, remake your change and submit. That page (like the Advanced Post page) does not use Ajax and doesn't seem to have the same problem.I thought about trying that. Thanks Alex!

[tracilicious]

Objectification of women is not a primal instinct. Your son has had an early lesson in the values of our society.

Hmmm. First of all, I want to say that I had never seen a live belly dancer before, so I assumed that putting money in clothing was some sort of traditional thing. Now that, I've read this thread, I'm a bit annoyed that that isn't the case yet they were encouraging it at this restaurant.

As for objectification, who was objectifying her? No one in the restaurant went to see her dance, people went to eat food and there happened to be dancing there. She was using her body in a sexual way. Does that make her an object? Does the fact that my nearly four year old son got turned on to whatever extent an young boy can when he saw a woman using her body in a mildly sexual way make him a product of our culture? He's never been exposed to anything like that before, so I'd say no. I call it human nature. Does the fact that people were tipping an entertainer make her an object? I certainly didn't give her three or four dollars because I thought she was hot, but because she was dancing for our entertainment.

Which is to say that our society doens't always have the best intentions with their values, and I would discuss that with your son at times like this.

I think this may be above his head, but I'll keep that in mind for the future. For now we just want to model respect for everyone.

That girl was just working, and tipping her was just like tipping a waitress, in a way. But the fact that her dancing was enough to make a small child want to see her nakid tells us what was wrong with it.

Does that make something wrong with it? She was belly dancing. Big deal. I think it just may be that Indi is experiencing the very earliest of sexual feelings. I don't think there is anything wrong with having feelings like that at any age. It's part of being human.

I would be sure to let him know that it's an exotic part of another culture, but it can be taken two ways. The proper way is that it is an interesting dance. Just like the two ways the human body can be viewed. There's a "dirty" way, and a "clean" way (terms a pre-schooler may understand).

What is the dirty way? I don't want him thinking that his feelings were somehow "dirty" because he got mildly excited by a woman doing a sexy dance. I'm not sure how imposing my judgement of how a human body can be "dirty" or "clean" will give him a healthy view of the body and of sexuality.

The human body is a beautifull thing, a wonder in all it's atributes. The fact the we have our senses, can reproduce, and the differences between male and female (although he brought this up, it still may be a little soon for the birds and the bees, but you're the best judge of that) makes it a wonder to behold. And viewed that way in art, like the David sculpture, there is nothing wrong with it.

So it's only ok to view a body in a sterile medical or artistic way? Why is it not ok to view the human body in a sexual way?

I also wonder why he said that to you in the first place. I'm sure he doesn't understand what sex is, so had he heard it somewhere before? Like with some older boys that looked at a girl and said "Wow, I'd like to see her nakid!" and so he thought it is what should have been said at the time? Or perhaps he was trying to be a "grown up"? However at his age I'm sure he most likely didn't know what he was saying, and I wouldn't worry too much about it as kids do repeat what they hear withought knowing it's meaning. And if things like this continue, I'd gently nudge him the right way with life lessons. That is our job as parents, to mold our children and guide them along the right path.

No, there is no possible way he had heard that before. We hang out with other families and our TV is limited to Playhouse Disney and PBS. Michael and I don't even watch TV. He was just telling me what he wanted. He said it in a very genuine, matter of fact way. I'm pretty sure it was just the earliest signs of human nature. And what is "the right way?" Supression of sexual feelings? I definitely want him to view sex as a very normal thing that all humans have, but it is best when shared by two people that feel a commitment to one another (my judgement, I know). But I also want him to know that it is ok to have whatever feelings he has.

I was absolutely satisfied with her answer. I knew where babies came from, but the concept of sexuality was foreign to me. I was less concerned with the specifics of what the older kid had told me than the fact that he was wrong.

Thanks for that example. The concept of sexuality is foreign to him too, though he is familiar with male and female anatomy and the very basics of reproduction (as in he knows that a sperm and an egg form a baby, but he hasn't asked how the sperm gets to the egg yet).

Hmmm - I'd like to dig a bit deeper by what you mean here. The "objectification of women" is such a cliché phrase with a lot of negative connotations attached.

If I put my Existentialist hat on, all human interactions are a struggle between being subject and object - and when I'm one I can't be the other. Sure the woman is being an object, but so is the wait staff, the other patrons, and probably at least partly mom and dad.

But I suspect you're going anthropological with this one, which also makes me curious as your comment to me suggests there are cultures where concepts of beauty and desire are not intertwined, or that cultures exist that where there is no objectification and my existentialist self doubts that to be the case.

I really liked this response. :cheers:


This activity comes from Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean cultures (esp. Turkey and Syria) and not from Greece. It's culturally inauthentic for a Greek restaurant to hire a belly dancer to go around from one table to another. So our discussion is not about the validity of Greek culture. It's about what this particular restaurant chooses to do to attract customers. This particular restaurant decided that a belly dancer going around to tables would probably increase their business.

I think it was more like they thought they would make a few bucks off the people already in the restaurant. It's a hole in the wall place. We had no idea there would be dancing there, and I'm pretty sure no one else did either. And thanks for validating that they don't belly dance in Greece. I was trying to make that point last night.

We have an inauthetic quasi-Mediterranean practice that reminds Americans of something in their own culture, namely a striptease act where commodification of the body is clearly going on.

I don't see it that way. It's an interesting, and yes, sexy dance. I've tipped many entertainers, and if there had been a guy playing violin I would have tipped him too. I wasn't tipping her because I saw her body.

Are there cultures where the concept of beauty and desire are not intertwined? Probably not. That's not the question. If attractiveness brings about physical desire, that's one thing. Paying to see the commodification of the body is something else.

Again, no one paid her to see her body. People were eating, she came out and danced, people tipped. I'm convinced that they would have done the same regardless of what she was wearing.

Please add this to the above ...

Striptease joints are clearly delineated from other kinds of venues. It's too bad that this restaurant decided to combine this two somehow, even though children are being served.

I would have more patience for the bellydancing in the Greek restaurant if the woman had not gone from table to table encouraging tips put in her clothing.

This was nothing like a striptease. I've been to strip clubs, and this wasn't it. It was belly dancing. I could have taken him to a high school dance recital and seen more overtly sexual moves. And yes, the whole thing was pretty tacky.

"Ask her, if she is fine with it then it is ok since the important thing is that all parties consent. Though if you end up with a disease the cost of the medicine is coming out of your future allowances."

Lol, I'll remember that for the future.

Finally, I don't see what's wrong with objectifying people. It is the only way we can incorporate into our awareness people and things of whom we have no intimate (platonic, of course) personal knowledge. Sexual objectification is just a subsection of that. Of course, acting on objectification is where you run into issues.

It is very much a primal instinct, I'd say. And we do it to hundreds of people in hundreds of ways every day, male (see the Annie Leibowitz thread) or female.

I'm going to mostly agree with this. I have no problem with strip joints as long as the women are voluntarily stripping and the men are voluntarily watching (and the audience is of age of course). Who's to say that the women aren't empowered by this?

I think the problem is when a society says it is ok to objectifying people, you are lowering their worth as a whole to some people. While that may be the exception for most people, it also says something about our society, don't you think?

Who is this "society" and where can I find out everything they think and when it's ok to act against that? If some people think a person's worth is lowered by stripping, that sounds like their problem. If a stripper feels empowered by it then who's to say that she's now worth less because her job involves feeding others' lust? What's so bad about lust?

[Strangler Lewis]

Re empowerment: off the top of my head, Aileen Wuornos was in the minority.

[Kevy Baby]

BTW, how do you make that "C"? I've been wondering that....The easiest thing to remember is copy and paste - it is your friend. I can tell you on a Mac it is option-shift-2. On a PC, press and hold ALT while you type in the numbers 0128.

This activity comes from Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean cultures (esp. Turkey and Syria) and not from Greece. It's culturally inauthentic for a Greek restaurant to hire a belly dancer to go around from one table to another.This is not true. While we Americans might more readily associate belly dancing with Persian countries, it is not exclusive to them. Belly dancing in Greece has been around for a long time. In Greece, the dance is known as "Tsifteteli" or "Cifte Telli." It also has historic origins that extend into France as well. If you like, there is some information at this link (http://www.chryssanthi.com/en/01ba1695820370601.html) and this link (http://www.bdancer.com/history/BDhist1.html).

This was nothing like a striptease. I've been to strip clubs, and this wasn't it. It was belly dancing.

<snip>

I have no problem with strip joints as long as the women are voluntarily stripping and the men are voluntarily watching (and the audience is of age of course). Who's to say that the women aren't empowered by this?Very true T - the two are not the same. Susan (my wife) took belly dancing lessons a while back. In discussing the history, one of the points they covered was that the belly dance was a demonstration of the woman's power - SHE is the one in control. Further, the history of the dance is partly based on religious beliefs of appeasing the Gods towards issues of fertility: not only of women but also of the earth itself.

And in a strip club, it is the woman who is in control. The main "exploitation" that is happening is done by the women exploiting the men and their money!

What is the dirty way?That's the fun way :evil:

[Prudence]

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming. I have nothing more interesting to contribute to this discussion.

[CoasterMatt]

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming.

I've never seen a belly dancer dressed like Joel Grey.

[tracilicious]

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming. I have nothing more interesting to contribute to this discussion.


Is there something else they wear? This was an ok costume I thought. Legs were covered, boobs were covered, stomach was not.

[3894]

Thanks for the links, Kevy Baby. I have a Turkish BIL so I'm unfortunately well aware of how the Turks feel about the Greeks. There's a huge gulf between the two cultures. The belly dance may be performed in Greece and France but it's not indigenous to Greece and France.

Does the fact that my nearly four year old son got turned on to whatever extent an young boy can when he saw a woman using her body in a mildly sexual way make him a product of our culture?

tracilicious, think in behavioralist terms. I'm assuming that only men were stuffing money into the belly dancer's costume? Your son learned that if he did X, then Y would happen. If a male put money in the lady's costume, she'd shake her money maker provocatively. He tried it - it worked!

Our culture commodifies sex. Your son had a little introduction to it. I have two kids and I can't say I'd have handled it differently than you did. The difference is I have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer (over)analyzing what happened to someone else.

[tracilicious]

tracilicious, think in behavioralist terms. I'm assuming that only men were stuffing money into the belly dancer's costume? Your son learned that if he did X, then Y would happen. If a male put money in the lady's costume, she'd shake her money maker provocatively. He tried it - it worked!

Our culture commodifies sex. Your son had a little introduction to it. I have two kids and I can't say I'd have handled it differently than you did. The difference is I have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer (over)analyzing what happened to someone else.


Actually, women were giving her money too. When the tips were slow in coming in the beginning a female waitress came out and put money in her waistband.

Having these new perspectives I can't say if I would do the same thing over again. At the time it really didn't seem like a big deal (and I'm still not sure that it was) and I didn't want to give the act more power by making it a big deal.

[bewitched]

1. Belly dancing may not be endemic to Greece, but it nonetheless has become part of their culture.

2. I see nothing wrong with "objectifying" anyone...as long as they choose it freely. I mean, is there really a functional difference between me watching a hot actor or a male (young or old) watching a belly dancer?

3. We're all assuming that he wanted to "see her naked" because he had budding sexual feelings. Traci, clearly you know your son better than anyone...but it seems to me that a more likely explanation is something like he thought that seeing her whole body shake would have been funny. And sticking something in an adult's pants? What adult lets you do that when you're a little kid...and how funny might you think it is? Not to mention that you get extra attention when you give her a dollar. Little kids' paradise...you get to do something you would usually get in trouble for AND you get positive feedback! (Not to mention the fact that I'm assuming he has no idea that strip clubs even exist; let alone that men go there and stick money in the strippers' "pants")

I think as adults, we have a tendency to view some behaviors and comments from children as "sexual" because we, as adults have learned that is how society at large views them. Children (generally) are not nearly that complex.

A (funny) example:

DH was in the bathroom at the mall using the urinal. There was another man in there with his little girl (maybe 5ish) she looked at DH and at her dad and said, "Daddy, that man's penis is bigger than yours."

One way to view this is from an adult, sexual perspective. The little girl "knew" that large penises are generally more desirable and was doing a comparison about who was better equiped...or, (more likely) she was making a simple observation. Granted, one that probably still haunts her dad to this day.

My point is, at 4, it seems pretty unlikely that sexual feelings were Indi's motivation for his comments or his actions.

[€uroMeinke]

1
My point is, at 4, it seems pretty unlikely that sexual feelings were Indi's motivation for his comments or his actions.

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

[bewitched]

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

Which, in my mind is a different question than, when did you become aware that you liked members of your own sex?

DD, Olivia-6 has liked boys since she was about 4. She differentiates between "nice" boys and "spittin'" boys. :D

[Prudence]

Is there something else they wear? This was an ok costume I thought. Legs were covered, boobs were covered, stomach was not.

There are different styles of dance and a variety of costumes associated with regional variations. In the US, we generally see a combination of styles, but probably more Turkish than anything, particularly in costuming.

[Kevy Baby]

I am fully willing to be objectified by an comely females who so desire.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

I'm not gay. I'm not even male. But I know that I was drawing pictures of naked people, and occasionally making with the hand party, by the age of five. Children are curious about sexuality-- some more than others, but there's nothing wrong with that. While I'm irked at the mothers who let their children buy low-cut vinyl pants (seriously, they were selling them at The Children's Place a few years ago) or visit build-a-whore for their birthday, but the natural progression of sexual awakening starts early. Traci, I think your goal of not suppressing him-- but teaching him respect-- is an excellent one.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I am fully willing to be objectified by an comely females who so desire.Anyone got an extra-large belly dancing outfit? I have some dollar bills I need to dispose of.

[Gemini Cricket]

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?
6 yrs old.
:)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Hmm, I don't know that playing with ones bits is the same as sexual awareness. I know I was always "hands on", but it was a purely physical/fidgety kinda realtionship (oh, look, if I poke it it gets all long and hard!). I didn't connect any of that to anything sexual until much much later (probably in the 11-12 range).