"Liberal Queer"

[wendybeth]

Alan Keye's daughter Maya, who describes herself as a "Liberal queer" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6971166/) speaks out on growing up in a conservative family and her relationship with her father.

I admire her strength- it couldn't have been easy growing up in that environment.:rolleyes:

[Tito's Kitten]

she is one tough 19 year old....

[Scrooge McSam]

... not to mention the embarrassment of having Alan Keyes as your father.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I couldn't even imagine having to grow up with him as my father. Her strength is inspirational.

[Gemini Cricket]

This thread title just screamed my name...
:D

[scaeagles]

To quote something from the article:

"Later, Marcel-Keyes told CNN her parents “were not too pleased” when they learned she was a lesbian, but she said she loves them “very much, and they love me. They can’t support my activities.” "

Seems to me like they have a relationship like a lot of families. Parents disapprove of actions taken by their child (speaking of homosexual acts, rather than who she is as a person), they have some conflict over it, but they love each other - her own words. Sounds like a family in which there are differences, but when the child grows to adulthood, the parents love the child even though they may disapprove of certain activities.

I fail to see why this is a tremendous story. Why is it that any conservative individual with a gay child - Cheney, Keyes - can't do anythign right? Weren't there comments about Cheney expointing his lesbian daughter by having her up on the stage with them at political events and the like? I would suggest that if the lesbian daughter was hidden there would be cries that he must be ashamed.

[wendybeth]

To quote something from the article:

"Later, Marcel-Keyes told CNN her parents “were not too pleased” when they learned she was a lesbian, but she said she loves them “very much, and they love me. They can’t support my activities.” "

Seems to me like they have a relationship like a lot of families. Parents disapprove of actions taken by their child (speaking of homosexual acts, rather than who she is as a person), they have some conflict over it, but they love each other - her own words. Sounds like a family in which there are differences, but when the child grows to adulthood, the parents love the child even though they may disapprove of certain activities.

I fail to see why this is a tremendous story. Why is it that any conservative individual with a gay child - Cheney, Keyes - can't do anythign right? Weren't there comments about Cheney expointing his lesbian daughter by having her up on the stage with them at political events and the like? I would suggest that if the lesbian daughter was hidden there would be cries that he must be ashamed.

Oh, gee- maybe it's because of sentiments he's expressed in the past, such as: "Her father, the Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate in Illinois last year, created a stir in August when he said during an interview that homosexuality was “selfish hedonism” and that Vice President Dick Cheney’s lesbian daughter was a sinner."

Pretty strong stuff.:rolleyes:

[scaeagles]

That is heavy stuff. However, I find it interesting that she still describes a loving relationship between herself and her dad. Even though he despises homosexuality, he still loves his daughter. Isn't that what Evangelical Christians profess - to "hate the sin and love the sinner"?

So I would offer that his relationship with his daughter shows exactly the opposite of what many may suspect of Keyes. He is no homophobe and does not hate homosexuals - he thinks homosexual acts are sinful.

[Gemini Cricket]

I say, good luck Maya. Good luck. Join the party. The more the merrier.
:)

[wendybeth]

.....he thinks homosexual acts are sinful.

And lets not forget "selfishly hedonistic". :rolleyes:

I think his daughter has a lot of class.

[SacTown Chronic]

And lets not forget "selfishly hedonistic". :rolleyes:

That's been my sexual style for years. I have no regrets.
















But dammit, it burns!

[Scrooge McSam]

He is no homophobe and does not hate homosexuals - he thinks homosexual acts are sinful.

Awww Keyes is just a cutesy wutesy cuddly bear is what he is. He can call me a selfish hedonist any ole time he wants to.

*Scrooge gives Scaeagles a big ole kiss on the cheek. He hates that, ya know... the whole hate the sin, love the sinner thing... but he loves me so it's alright*

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I can't imagine ever telling my child: "Who you are attracted to, through no fault of your own, makes you morally repugnant. We love you but don't want you to ever experience the feeling of being with someone who you care deeply about. Oh, and we are actively doing everything we can to limit your rights constitutionally to ensure that if you do get into a relationship like that, you will never be able to have the same legal protections that your mother and I do."

[Ghoulish Delight]

So I would offer that his relationship with his daughter shows exactly the opposite of what many may suspect of Keyes. He is no homophobe and does not hate homosexuals - he thinks homosexual acts are sinful.Yeah, I'm sure many of his best friends are gays.

[Gemini Cricket]

I can't imagine ever telling my child: "Who you are attracted to, through no fault of your own, makes you morally repugnant. We love you but don't want you to ever experience the feeling of being with someone who you care deeply about. Oh, and we are actively doing everything we can to limit your rights constitutionally to ensure that if you do get into a relationship like that, you will never be able to have the same legal protections that your mother and I do."
I've got nothing more to add to this thread but to repeat this awesome quote.
:)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Okay, to be fair, there's an angle here I can understand.

Let's say you're a parent. Your child is a thief. Not just been caught shoplifting once beause a friend dared them, but a truly habitual thief. A compulsive robber. Such a thing exists, habitual criminals that are addicted to it just as someone can be addicted to gambling. There are laws against it, you consider it a deplorable act, but they can't help themselves. It's just part of their psyche, who they are. Do you still love them? Do you still not respect their actions?

Now, I in know way compare theft and homosexuality. However, this is where these parents are coming from. They DO believe homosexuality is wrong, just as you would believe theft is wrong. But just because your child does something wrong doesn't mean you don't love them, nor does it mean you don't still think the act is wrong. So while I disagree with the conclusion that the act is wrong, can you at least understand how the seemingly contradictary statements of, "I don't support your actions, and think they should be illegal, but I still love you," isn't as outlandish as it seems?

[Not Afraid]

No, the issue here is the parents wrongly confusing their believe that theivery is wrong with something that is purely natural and good as wrong.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Again, I don't disagree that their conclusion that homosexuality is incorrect. But, the attitude of, "I dislike what you do, but still love you," is neither unheard of, nor misguided.

[scaeagles]

Well said, GD.

[Scrooge McSam]

K then

The bible says eating shellfish is an abomination. Let's say a set of parents truly believes this and forbids their kids to eat same.

Let's also say these parents feel so strongly about this that they're trying to pass laws to prevent everyone from eating shellfish.

This has ceased to be a parent or set of parents trying to guide their children to a better life. It has now become a set of know it all busybodies trying to decide how everyone else lives their life.

Misguided

[scaeagles]

My point in defending Keyes is not to get into morality issues regarding homosexuality. This was about the relationship between Keyes and his daughter, right? My point is that their relationship is not so uncommon - a loving parent child relationship where the parents disapprove of actions taken by their child.

It is not about Keyes' activism. The story was about his relationship with his lesbian daughter.

[Scrooge McSam]

The only reason this is a topic on these boards is Keye's activism.

[Gemini Cricket]

I've got nothing more to add to this thread ...
:)
I lied.

There are so many things wrong with Keyes's stance on his daughter. He's using his religious beliefs to judge his own daughter. These same type of beliefs were used by politicians against equality for people of color back in the 60s. How can he use the same logic to make judgements against his own blood? Skin color and sexual orientation are not a choice, religious beliefs are. He needs to rethink his 'logic'.

GD - I understand his logic, but it's half-assed logic. He's trying to say he loves his daughter but hates what she is. That makes no sense.

Keyes and other politicans like him, and religious leaders as a matter of fact, need to stop playing God.

And again, why are people like Keyes and Cheney in political leadership roles when they support legislation against their own children? If they can do that to their own children, they would do it to anyone.

And might I remind people that Obama blew Keyes away in their race. There's a reason that happened. One's an idiot, the other isn't. ('Jesus wouldn't vote for Obama.' ~ Keyes quote. :rolleyes: )

[SacTown Chronic]

I lied.

GC lied. Nobody died.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics. It's who they are, it's as natural to them to be alcoholics as it is for you to be gay, but that doesn't mean I like that alcoholism exists, or that I don't want to help them deal with their alcoholism. There's no difference, on that side of things. If you feel the trait is destructive to them, you can still love them while disliking the trait. I might theoretically support legislation to force alcoholics into some sort of treatment (not really because that's a terrible way to address it, but it's a hypothetical analogy). I support laws that punish habitual violent criminals. These are all things that punish people for who they are.

Of course, where the divide occurs is the definition of destructive. Clearly I disagree with Keyes that homosexuality is destructive, that it shouldn't be legislated against or dispised. That I'm not arguing. That's a completely separate debate. Talk about that all you want, but I can't fathom questioning his love for his own daughter.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Well said, GC. Although you pretty much negated the long post I just wrote, you said it more elequently than I was going to. Glad you chimed back in. :)

I've never been able to buy into the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" philosophy. It's great for the person espousing it because, in their mind, it absolves them of doing any harm. "We love you even though your thoughts and actions are evil" just doesn't cut it however. It puts extreme pressure on a person to try to become something that they can never be so that they can be accepted by their family. Imagine yourself in that position.

[Gemini Cricket]

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics.
You aren't born an alcoholic.
A man doesn't become gay because you OD on sleeping with too many men.

I'm lost on your comparison...

[Ghoulish Delight]

It puts extreme pressure on a person to try to become something that they can never be so that they can be accepted by their family. Imagine yourself in that position.But how would you compare it to alcoholish? Everyone seems to agree that it's everyone's best interest for an alcoholic to pretend to be someone they can never be. People understand the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner" there. Why is it so much different for homosexuality (other than the disagreement about it being a sin, but like I said, that's a separate question).

[Ghoulish Delight]

You aren't born an alcoholic.
A man doesn't become gay because you OD on sleeping with too many men.

I'm lost on your comparison...Actually, most studies show that you ARE born an alcoholic, that alcoholism runs in the family, and they have isolated some genes that seem to contribute to it.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics. It's who they are, it's as natural to them to be alcoholics as it is for you to be gay, but that doesn't mean I like that alcoholism exists, or that I don't want to help them deal with their alcoholism. There's no difference, on that side of things.

Here is the difference that I see. Alcoholism is destructive, not only in the eyes of God (if that is what you believe) but in the physical well-being of someone who drinks. By getting someone to stop drinking, you are doing a service to them and possibly saving their life.

Trying to pressure someone to stop being gay is destructive. Being gay isn't. And for those that say that God says it is, I would ask that they stop assuming that they have the right to speak for, and judge on the behalf of God.

edited to add: I posted before I saw your most recent post, GD. Still, I think this may somewhat serve as a response to your later post.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Okay, I'll say it again...that' NOT what I'm arguing. I KNOW you don't believe homosexuality is destructive, and you know I don't believe that. But people like Keyes do. And whether you agree with him or not, that's where he's coming from. So while I find his basic premise completely off-base, I do NOT question his love for his own family. That's the topic. That's the "hate the sin, love the sinner" that you say you don't understand. If you see someone you love doing something that you think is desctructive, you are going to continue to dislike the trait, that doesn't preclude you from loving that person anymore.

[scaeagles]

There are all sorts of genetic issues coming out, such as a predisposition to alcoholism, obesity, whatever. Someone very close to me is obese. Not completely her fault at all (note completely), as she exercises and tries to eat right, but she does have a certain genetic disposition to it (family history, etc). This does not absolve her, however, from the times she overeats or eats things that are poison to her system.

MBC, I have never understood why acceptance of someone as a person means acceptance of their activities. Should I surmise that you do not accept me because I choose to participate with Republicans and support their campaign efforts? Certainly not. While my political standing is most likely not genetic (though the side effects of me going liberal would be something like organ transplant rejection, I'm sure), I choose to do such a thing, and you find the things that I believe in to be....unacceptable a lot of the time.

The "love the sinner, hate the sin" does nothing for me in terms of absolution. I have a friend - and evangelical Christian, no less - that is divorcing her husband. The Bible says the God hates divorce. Do I think she is making the right choice? No. I am not in her shoes, though, and would not care to be (hmmm....that would make me gay and a proponent of gay marriage if i were married to her husband....), but i can still call her my friend and our family is doing our best (in limited fashion - she isn't living with us or anything) to help her through the emotional devastation. We most certainly love her, but are saddened by her choice.

My 11 year old daughter makes choices all the time that I disapprove of. I love her to death, and it's part of the learning process for her. You know how hard it is for me to let her not study and get a poor grade on a test? Drives me nuts. Ayway, I most certainly intervene if there is a possibility of harm. When I was not a parent, parenting was so easy. I would not suggest that anyone who does not have children cannot comment on the Keyes situation, but parenthood adds a certain perpective that non parents do not have. Who else involved here has kids? Please do not read into my statements that I believe my opinion is of more value because I have kids. I just have a perspective that many here do not. I will also add that I am not gay, so that is a perspective that many here have that I do not.

[Gemini Cricket]

Actually, most studies show that you ARE born an alcoholic, that alcoholism runs in the family, and they have isolated some genes that seem to contribute to it.
I'm not an alcoholic. I know a few. But my father is, my mother is, my grandfathers were... I'm not well versed on alcoholism, but with my background, should I or my sisters be? We're not...

I wanted to reiterate that I know you're not saying being gay is destructive. I get that.

But being a rainbow flag waving sista, I do raise an eyebrow when I hear gay, alcoholic, mental illness, pedophile and AIDS used in the same sentence.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm not an alcoholic. I know a few. But my father is, my mother is, my grandfathers were... I'm not well versed on alcoholism, but with my background, should I or my sisters be? We're not...Are your parents gay?

[Chernabog]

But being a rainbow flag waving sista, I do raise an eyebrow when I hear gay, alcoholic, mental illness, pedophile and AIDS used in the same sentence.

Seriously. There's a reason why being gay/bi doesn't often get compared by these so-called Christians to "having blue eyes".

And "love the sinner hate the sin" with regard to being gay is homophobic. Though I need to get into that whole debate later since I am late for work, d'oh :D

[Gemini Cricket]

Are your parents gay?
The jury's out on dear mama, but if I'd have to make a call, I'd say yes for her.
:)

[Ghoulish Delight]

AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me. I'm not disagreeing that he's a homophobe and that his views on homosexuality are wrong! All I'm saying is that it's not unfathomable that this man still loves his freaking daughter. While I find his message and political goals distasteful, that doesn't mean he hates her.

My father-in-law is a hate filled man. He's a homophobe, he's a racist, and he's a bigot about just about anything. He's the most judgemental SOB I've ever met. I know for a fact that he hates some of the decissions that CP has made. But while I cannot respect his beliefs, I never question that he loves his daughter, or that she loves him.

[Gemini Cricket]

The jury's out on dear mama, but if I'd have to make a call, I'd say yes for her.
:)
I know I wrote that like a joke, but seriously. I think she is.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The jury's out on dear mama, but if I'd have to make a call, I'd say yes for her.
:)Whatever, the point is genetics don't work that way. It's chance and probability. (here's one for you, Chernabog). Everyone in CPs immediate family has brown eyes. That's 2 parents, and 3 brothers. So by your genetic logic, if she doesn't have brown eyes, that proves that eye color isn't genetic at all. Well, she's got blue eyes. Does that mean eye color isn't genetic? No, it just means that different genes were expressed in her genome than her parents. She still go the genes from them, they just weren't the dominant genes in their chromosones. So having 2 alcoholic parents does not guarantee alcoholic children, it just increases the chances.

[SacTown Chronic]

So having 2 alcoholic parents does not guarantee alcoholic children, it just increases the chances.

But are the increased odds due to genetics or is it because they watched mom and dad slug down the booze day after day and they know no other way?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

FYI - GD is right about my father. He can be a total pompus prejudiced ass. We've had some doozy arguments about the big issues. I know he loves me, yet thinks that I'm part of the problem with the world today, calling me a yuppie liberal behind my back, a grevious offense in that house. :rolleyes: And conversely, I don't like his attitudes or behavior, in fact believe he's a hate-mongerer, yet I still love him, regardless. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

[Gemini Cricket]

AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me.
Try being Keyes's daughter. Imagine how frustrating that would be. Conflicting stances, the uncertainty of a father's love, being in the public eye, coming out, lack of support, being okay with yourself...

I consider myself ignorant on what you're saying about alcoholism and I will research that and get back to you. But I doubt Keyes could even say that when it came to his daughter. So if they do want to take this conflict public, then we're allowed to discuss what we think about him and his daughter. I don't think we should judge their love for one another, we don't know them personally, but we can discuss, agree and disagree... Right?

I'm not meaning to be frustrating and I don't know anything about genetics. All I do know is that I DO know what it's like to have parents judge you as Keyes is doing...

:)

[Gemini Cricket]

FYI - GD is right about my father.
Your views can/could change. So could his. But if he had a problem with you if you were a lesbian, could you still love him? I know a little about you and I think you could. However, I am not that strong of a person to say I could.

[Nephythys]

Seems to me she is certain of her fathers love.

I still love how quick people are to call people homophobes because they disapprove of the lifestyle/behavior/whatever- I don't think they are in the least bit afraid of gay people.

And how fast some people are to label, when they themselves shrug off labels angrily when they are applied to them- and judge when they claim to think that judging others is wrong-and make assumptions, but are angry when people assume about them-

[Motorboat Cruiser]

So while I find his basic premise completely off-base, I do NOT question his love for his own family. That's the topic. That's the "hate the sin, love the sinner" that you say you don't understand. If you see someone you love doing something that you think is desctructive, you are going to continue to dislike the trait, that doesn't preclude you from loving that person anymore.

I understand where you are coming from, GC. I really do. I don't question that they love their daughter either. That's never been my position. Parents want what is best for their child. I get that.

I do understand the concept of "Love the sinner, hate the sin" as it would apply to something like alcoholism or thievery. I also understand that in their mind, there is no difference between those examples and homosexuality.

My frustration comes from the fact that when the concept "LTS, HTS" is applied to being gay, it can actually do more harm than good, IMO, even if that harm isn't deliberate.

[Gemini Cricket]

I understand where you are coming from, GC.
Did you mean GD, by any chance?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

.

I still love how quick people are to call people homophobes because they disapprove of the lifestyle/behavior/whatever- I don't think they are in the least bit afraid of gay people.



Just wanted to point out that the definition of homophobia is a fear or hatred of homosexuality. You don't have to be afraid of a gay person to be a homophobe.

[scaeagles]

But are the increased odds due to genetics or is it because they watched mom and dad slug down the booze day after day and they know no other way?

That's the question on all of these issues. Are they learned behaviors, genetics, or a combination?

That's scary territory if you ask me. If you have parents that are obese, can insurance companies charge you more for health insurance? Can health insurers refuse coverage if you are unwilling to be "genetically screened" in the future? What if insurers refused to give coverage to gay men because the rate of AIDS is higher? What if a "genetic therapy" could be offered to any gay person who no longer wants to be gay? There are hundreds and thousands of such questions.

I don't think I want them answered.

[Ghoulish Delight]

But are the increased odds due to genetics or is it because they watched mom and dad slug down the booze day after day and they know no other way?I'm not going to get into this. The same arguments of nature vs. nurture can be had for alcoholism, homosexualtiy, philanthropy, disney fan-dom, gambling addiction, philately (no, not that), or any number of personality traits. It's becoming more and more clear that the answer lies somewhere in between, that genetics lays out a path of possibilities and predispositions and environment/experience shapes which paths are taken. But neither is a guarantee of anything and it's a complex interaction.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Did you mean GD, by any chance?

Ummm, yeah. :blush:

[wendybeth]

I can see both sides here, but as a parent, I would never ever say what he has said, even if I believed it. Never. It's a public condemnation of your own child, and to do that, yet say you love them.......Doesn't sound like love to me. I'm not in their place, so I can't say what they really feel, but I just know I will always love my daughter, no matter what, and I would never say or do what he has. Perhaps he is able to reconcile his feelings with the "Love the sinner, hate the sin", stuff, but personally I think that whole mode of thinking is a crock. Kind of along the lines of "I'm not perfect- just forgiven", which many Christians take as a license to do rotten things to others, so long as they say "WHoops- sorry, God!" in their prayers at night.

[SacTown Chronic]

and judge when they claim to think that judging others is wrong

Judge me based on your morals and beliefs and I'll just shrug. Try to legislate my behavior based on your morals and beliefs and you'll have a fight on your hands. Understand the difference?

[MouseWife]

But are the increased odds due to genetics or is it because they watched mom and dad slug down the booze day after day and they know no other way?

Well, I have a little experience in this catagory and in this question in particular.

The odds of becoming an addict are stronger if it is in your genes, according to the many counselors we've 'chatted' with. In this family, in particular, the Indian issue comes into play but we won't go there as I don't know enough to substantiate it.

Another issue that we dealt with was depression and that perhaps in the past the 'alcoholics' were actually depressed people who self medicated.

I think, from what I have experienced in my own life, showing the kids that you don't drink or that you drink in moderation and keep your standards up in as many areas as possible {honesty,working, etc.} when/if they do start to drink and maybe start to become addicted, they are less likely to just say 'There is nothing wrong with this'. I don't know that having parents drink around you increases your chances but it lowers your resistance and sometimes your ability to see right from wrong. And your ability to pull yourself out of the addiction if the people around you aren't trying or don't see a reason to try.

[scaeagles]

I can see both sides here, but as a parent, I would never ever say what he has said, even if I believed it. Never. It's a public condemnation of your own child, and to do that, yet say you love them.......Doesn't sound like love to me.

Keyes has been around a lot longer than his 19 year old daughter has been a lesbian (assuming this wasn't an issue until maybe 6 years ago? Don't know when it was "discovered"). He has been saying the same thing for a long time. So it's OK to say something is wrong until someone you know and love - like your child - participates in things that you have long professed are wrong? That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."

Actually, I think it takes strength of character on the part of Keyes to maintain his stance in with the incredible public scrutiny.

[Gemini Cricket]

Judge me based on your morals and beliefs and I'll just shrug. Try to legislate my behavior based on your morals and beliefs and you'll have a fight on your hands.
I was thinking this would be great for a sig line...
:)

[Nephythys]

Just wanted to point out that the definition of homophobia is a fear or hatred of homosexuality. You don't have to be afraid of a gay person to be a homophobe.


I'm sorry- but you also can't make the judgement that "hating" the "sin" (as defined by Biblical terms as I am sure Keyes uses) means hating the person.

Leo had a great point- most people here can seperate between his conservative politics, which many of you consider potentially damaging, and Leo himself, whom I know you like and respect- is it so hard for you to see that we on the conservative side see it the same way?

I am as tired of the unfair generalization of conservatives or Christians as being hate mongers, as I am sure you are of being labeled unnatural or perverse.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Your views can/could change. So could his. Sorry babe, you don't understand. My father sees the world in black and white. He spits out the word "liberal" only as an insult, even though GD has always used the word to describe himself (and he really does like GD). He talks freely of how it was homosexuality that brought down Greece and Rome and that it will bring down America. His views on Arabs are so racist I'm totally embarrassed to even recount them. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that disagrees with his world view is to be yelled at and told that they are for death and destruction. He's condescending and judgemental and cruel in arguments. He's said all kinds of horrible things about my views, asserting that I'm anti-American, that it's people like me that are undermining freedom, that I have no morals....

The fact that he thinks I'm completely fooled by the liberal media and swayed by a bad crowd hurts a lot. Especially since I've always shown myself to be pretty smart. In essence, he doesn't approve of my life, or at least, the underpinnings of my life. It hurts.

But we've worked around it.

Believe me, he's done his worst. And yet, he loves me, that much is abundantly clear. We don't talk politics often, really. I do love him and love being with him, as long as the conversation stays away from certain topics. He can be so much fun. We both know that there are ways for us to get along and that it's definitely worth it.

I hate his sins. But I love him. I know he'll never change, he'll breed hate and fear wherever he goes...but I love him anyway.

[Nephythys]

Judge me based on your morals and beliefs and I'll just shrug. Try to legislate my behavior based on your morals and beliefs and you'll have a fight on your hands. Understand the difference?


I don't think legislating morals was even part of this discussion-

I understand perfectly- as long as you understand that I am equally sick of people trying to force acceptance on me and mine in the name of their brand of tolerance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."Well, for many people it becomes a moment of, "Oh wait, you mean that these aren't evil people and the downfall of society?"

[Gemini Cricket]

My father sees the world in black and white...
I hear ya. Both my parents are like that.

But like you said, you can turn it off the political talk when you two are together. But when someone doesn't like who you are, you can't just turn that off and it's very hard not to talk about it. I mean, if I tried, I'd have nothing to talk about without mentioning something Ralphie and I did together.
I'm not sure if I'm being clear.
Let's say your dad wanted you to be a boy. Black and white again. Resents you every time he sees you cause you're not a boy. How do you make that work? I see being me as being the same thing.

[scaeagles]

Just wanted to point out that the definition of homophobia is a fear or hatred of homosexuality. You don't have to be afraid of a gay person to be a homophobe.

I learned something very interesting based on this post.

I went to dictionary.com. I looked up the following -

acrophobia - irrational fear of heights
arachnophobia - irrational fear of spiders
hydrophobia - irration fear of water
(a whole bunch of others, including clown phobia, blah, blah, blah)
homophobia - fear or contempt for lesbians or gay men

Now, I did not find one phobia, with the exception of homophobia, that was defined with "contempt for". In fact, the definition of homophobia stands out because it is different. The definition of this word has evolved for what I believe are political purposes - allowing the word to be used for anyone who does not like homosexual behavior. It allows a wider use of the word to label people. No other phobia I found says anything but fear, because of the word origins.

Edited to add - Had a thought. Looked up xenophobia. It also uses the word contempt.

[wendybeth]

Keyes has been around a lot longer than his 19 year old daughter has been a lesbian (assuming this wasn't an issue until maybe 6 years ago? Don't know when it was "discovered"). He has been saying the same thing for a long time. So it's OK to say something is wrong until someone you know and love - like your child - participates in things that you have long professed are wrong? That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."

Actually, I think it takes strength of character on the part of Keyes to maintain his stance in with the incredible public scrutiny.

I get what you are saying, but it's easy to take a stance on something and to see only black and white, until the subject strikes closer to home. That personalizes it, and one would be expected to revaluate in this situation. I know, because it has happened in our family. A very close relative belongs to a religion that demands you turn your back on homosexual family members. SHe did not, and refuses to. She admits she doesn't understand it, but she'll never turn her back on this person, and she loves her with all her heart. She is also much more sensitive about others comments on the subject. This person changed her mind on how she viewed homosexuality, largely due to the fact that it became personal.

At the same time, if this is truly how he feels, then he has the courage of his convictions and I respect that.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

No other phobia I found says anything but fear, because of the word origins.Isn't homophobia a word made up by popular culture, unlike the other phobias, which are scientific terms?

[scaeagles]

Isn't homophobia a word made up by popular culture, unlike the other phobias, which are scientific terms?

Could be.....

[Chernabog]

I'm not going to get into this. The same arguments of nature vs. nurture can be had for... disney fan-dom

Dammit, I was BORN a Disneyfag :D

(OK that adds nothing to the argument but I'm in a goofy mood today.) :p

[Scrooge McSam]

I learned something very interesting based on this post..

On that same site, check out the def for "phobia"

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

[Nephythys]

shall we define this phobia? Hatred of the BEHAVIOR or the PEOPLE??? For political and socieological purposes it is used to beat people over the head and accuse them of hating the people- not the behavior- therein lies my quibble with it. I do not have to accept and like everything someone does to like the person.

I suspect that where we lose each other is that I can see the difference, whereas being gay defines who you are- and so in your mind, someone disliking one seems to naturally lead to them disliking the other-

[Scrooge McSam]

I suspect that where we lose each other is that I can see the difference, whereas being gay defines who you are- and so in your mind, someone disliking one seems to naturally lead to them disliking the other-

I do appreciate your attempt to understand, but I disagree. Being gay is a part of who I am, not my defining characteristic.

[Nephythys]

I do appreciate your attempt to understand, but I disagree. Being gay is a part of who I am, not my defining characteristic.
I'm glad to hear that, I was grasping at straws trying to figure out why people are so sure that disapproval of the action equates to not loving the person.

[Gemini Cricket]

Being gay is a part of who I am, not my defining characteristic.
So true. Sometimes I let it define me because people are so into labels. But heck, there's a lot more to me than just being a friend of Dorothy (or more recently the Wicked Witch of the West... Love that 'Wicked' Soundtrack...) :)

[Scrooge McSam]

How do you react when someone else tells you how to live your life?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I do appreciate your attempt to understand, but I disagree. Being gay is a part of who I am, not my defining characteristic.Which is why I said what I said above.

I KNOW there is such a thing as seperating the sin and the sinner. I do it to love my dad. :(

[Gemini Cricket]

I KNOW there is such a thing as seperating the sin and the sinner. I do it to love my dad. :(
And how lucky is he? Very.
:)

[Nephythys]

How do you react when someone else tells you how to live your life?

I guess that depends on the person and their motivation. I don't assume that they are all doing it for the same reasons-

[Scrooge McSam]

OK Some pious soul chooses to belittle you because you've had a divorce. They don't know your situation or your motivations. That have just their idea, narrowly defined according to the bible or their own beliefs, on when divorce is suitable and when it is not. They then proceed to define for you through legislation when it would be OK with them for you to get a divorce.

How likely are you to rebel against their narrow mindedness?

[Nephythys]

OK Some pious soul chooses to belittle you because you've had a divorce. They don't know your situation or your motivations. That have just their idea, narrowly defined according to the bible or their own beliefs, on when divorce is suitable and when it is not. They then proceed to define for you through legislation when it would be OK with them for you to get a divorce.

How likely are you to rebel against their narrow mindedness?

Legislation keeps getting dragged into this when it had nothing to do with it- the discussion is about a father who has always disapproved of homosexuality, and has not changed his stance despite his daughter being gay. It was a debate about the quality of his love and the stance of his disapproval.

I am going to leave legislation out of this- this has nothing to do with government or laws-

I DID have someone tell me how to live my life after my divorce in regards to their view of the Biblical stance on divorce- they were wrong. I chose to not fight them, nor to follow their advice. Not everything comes with some malicious intent- sometimes you just have to stand by and say "thanks but no thanks"

I could not assume they hated me, and their disapproval did not matter to me because they knew nothing about it- nor did I think they were applying Biblical knowlegde to it appropriately.

My best friend married a horrible abusive cheating man- I told her many times how much I hated it- but I loved her. In a way I told her how to live her life, but it was out of concern and love for her-

I am also trying really really hard to not get ticked off about the comment- "it must not have been easy growing up in that enviornment :rolleyes:" because I find that comment to be remarkably intolerant of those who choose to raise their children in a conservative Christian home. I am raising my kids that way- I find them to be very tolerant and accepting kids, who don't see color or sexuality when they look at people. They see the people- not the extra stuff that causes all this stress. So tell me, is the enviornment my children are growing in horrible???? Because it sure seems that is the assumption here-

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I'm sorry- but you also can't make the judgement that "hating" the "sin" (as defined by Biblical terms as I am sure Keyes uses) means hating the person.

Leo had a great point- most people here can seperate between his conservative politics, which many of you consider potentially damaging, and Leo himself, whom I know you like and respect- is it so hard for you to see that we on the conservative side see it the same way?

I am as tired of the unfair generalization of conservatives or Christians as being hate mongers, as I am sure you are of being labeled unnatural or perverse.

Just wanted to say that in hindsite, I regret that the definition I posted only gave the choice of fear or hate. As Sam pointed out, the definition of "phobia" itself includes aversion and dislike. In my experience, there are far more people that possess feelings of aversion and dislike towards homosexuality than actual hatred, which is an awfully strong word.

And for the record, I would never make the generalization that all Christians are hate-mongers. I'm surrounded by examples that prove otherwise.

[Gemini Cricket]

And for the record, I would never make the generalization that all Christians are hate-mongers. I'm surrounded by examples that prove otherwise.
I'd like to go on the record and say the same.
:snap:

[Nephythys]

again- glad to hear it

(I did not think MBC would stalk me if I was a hate monger LOL) ;)

[Scrooge McSam]

I am going to leave legislation out of this- this has nothing to do with government or laws-

I can appreciate how you would feel this way. Your way of life is not under attack. Mine is. Can you give me the same understanding?

I DID have someone tell me how to live my life after my divorce in regards to their view of the Biblical stance on divorce- they were wrong.

Kinda like I feel about those pushing for a gay marriage amendment.

I chose to not fight them, nor to follow their advice.

That worked for you. That course of action does not work for me. If I (and others) just accept Keyes and his ilk and don't rail against what they're trying to do, we'll have a gay marriage amendment before long.

Not everything comes with some malicious intent- sometimes you just have to stand by and say "thanks but no thanks"

That only works if they have no power over you.

I could not assume they hated me, and their disapproval did not matter to me because they knew nothing about it- nor did I think they were applying Biblical knowlegde to it appropriately.

Check

[Nephythys]

I can appreciate how you would feel this way. Your way of life is not under attack. Mine is. Can you give me the same understanding? Kinda like I feel about those pushing for a gay marriage amendment.


My way of life is not under attack? I'm sorry, but you are wrong. There are many people who want to silence me and my beliefs too-

But I am trying to understand- though I still fail to see why this is being interjected into this conversation. I thought we were talking about hating the sin and loving the sinner- not gay marriage ammendments.

I don't mean to be trite- but given how strongly bans on gay marriage passed, then I would say there are alot of people you are labeling Keyes "ilk"-

[Gemini Cricket]

I can appreciate how you would feel this way...
You make a lot of good points here, Mr. McSam.
:cheers: :snap:

[Scrooge McSam]

But I am trying to understand- though I still fail to see why this is being interjected into this conversation. I thought we were talking about hating the sin and loving the sinner- not gay marriage ammendments.

Because "hate the sin, love the sinner" is one of the first points that always gets trotted out in these little discussions. And as I stated to Leo earlier, we wouldn't even be enjoying this thread so amiably were Keyes not so well known for his public pronouncements on gays in general, his gay daughter and the gay marriage amendment.

I don't mean to be trite- but given how strongly bans on gay marriage passed, then I would say there are alot of people you are labeling Keyes "ilk"-

I sense your taking the word "ilk" as a slur. It simply means "like" or "kind", as in "Mr Keyes and his like" or "Mr. Keyes and his kind".

[wendybeth]

Mr. Keyes has run for office, and likely will again. Should he get into office, then his views can and probably will show in the types of legislation he supports or proposes. As a commentator, he also wields influence on current and future lawmaking. This thread is not just about the relationship between a father and a daughter, but also between two people who are politically active in their respective areas of interest.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I am also trying really really hard to not get ticked off about the comment- "it must not have been easy growing up in that enviornment :rolleyes:" because I find that comment to be remarkably intolerant of those who choose to raise their children in a conservative Christian home.That comment, as I read it, was not directed at all people who choose to raise their family with conservative Christian values. It was aimed specifically at this situation, with a father actively working towards legislation that would make it illegal for his daughter to be happy.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

That comment, as I read it, was not directed at all people who choose to raise their family with conservative Christian values. It was aimed specifically at this situation, with a father actively working towards legislation that would make it illegal for his daughter to be happy.

Not to mention a father who characterizes gay people as nothing more than "selfish hedonists".

[Nephythys]

I was not aware that happiness required the right to marry

[Scrooge McSam]

Well, I'll admit you might not be the right one to bounce that idea off of. ;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

I was not aware that happiness required the right to marryNot a requirement, however if you were someone for whom marriage DOES lead to happiness, it sure would suck if you were legally prevented from doing it.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I was not aware that happiness required the right to marryHappiness doesn't require the right to eat ice cream either.

[Nephythys]

Well, I'll admit you might not be the right one to bounce that idea off of. ;)

LOL- no kidding! (CP- I also don't eat ice cream ;) )

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I was not aware that happiness required the right to marry

No, but various legal protections do.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Well, for many people it becomes a moment of, "Oh wait, you mean that these aren't evil people and the downfall of society?"
That's one of the larger reasons behind being visibly gay - people might see us and realize that we are not what they had been told. We are people, just like anybody else, just who we love is different. You get to know your neighbor, and you like them, and when they turn out to be gay, it's not what you were told "they" were like. Suddenly "they" have a face. So you have to either believe your loved neighbor is suddenly a bad person, or you recognize that maybe the propeganda was wrong. We hope people start to see that the propeganda is incorrect.

I'm not sure quite what it is that is supposed to be so wrong, but whatever.

Why does homophobia hurt so much? Yes, it's only one characteristic, but for me it's a fairly large one. Not a primary one, but it's high on the list. It *does* help define who I am, and for someone to attack me for it, hurts. I can't decide if it's good or bad that for me it's not a choice (though I've had it argued both ways). It isn't a choice, though I wouldn't change this even if I did have a chance. I like me.

**hugs**
-kerry, babbling some...

[MouseWife]

I think it hurts, and I am only going by my own relationship with my now husband where in the beginning we were made to feel as if we were doing something terribly wrong being together~

It hurts because, while that is only a part of you, it is the intimate part of you. Something no one should have the right to judge. Something you have every right to feel just as you wish, naturally and wholly.

It is what is in your heart and soul and no one has the right to enter those places with malice and judgement.

Tolerance isn't what we need, it is acceptance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I can't decide if it's good or bad that for me it's not a choice (though I've had it argued both ways). Yeah, that's an ugly argument either way, and proving either true will disuade no one. On the "nature" side you have "We were born like this, why should we be judged and ridiculed for how we were born," vs., "People with genetic diseases are born that way too, so should we just let them be without intervention as well?" And on the "nurture" side you have, "America is about freedom of choice, if it doesn't affect other people then you have no right to legislate," vs., "Since it is a 'choice' and therefore influenced by your environment, then it's our moral reponsibility to not promote an environment that promotes immoral choices."

So in the end, whether it's genetic or environmental is completely moot as the dichotomy runs far deeper than that.

[just to be perfectly clear, nothing stated above represents my view point on anything. They are just examples of the divisive stances that people take on all sides of the issue, no matter what the facts are]

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Absolutely, GD.

I'm not sure if it is genetic or environmental or a combination of both. I just know that it wasn't a choice that I consciously made. Quite the opposite in fact, I did everything in my power to try to be straight (for way too long). It wasn't possible to do that and have any semblence of a happy life though. Most importantly, it wouldn't have been fair to the other person and it wouldn't have been fair to me.

As is often mentioned, I don't think that anyone who is straight would have any better luck than I did at changing their sexual orientation. We are attracted to who we are attracted to, period.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Oh, and alphabassettgrrl, that was a wonderful post.

[wendybeth]

Our family member moved clear across the country, after trying to be married, etc, and it not working out. She did everything she could to sublimate herself, and then she gave up her family, job and friends and moved far way. She finally came out a few years ago, and after the initial surprise things settled down remarkably fast. She's been with her partner for over eight years, and that person is now family to us.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

It's always nice to hear about someone who's life takes a turn for the better after coming out. Thanks for sharing, Wendy.

[Gemini Cricket]

It's always nice to hear about someone who's life takes a turn for the better after coming out. Thanks for sharing, Wendy.
Even though my life was disastrous after I initially came out, I'm glad I did it. In the end, it improved my life and helped me sift out the garbage people that were no good for me.
:)

[Scrooge McSam]

Same here. A family member was ejected from my family before I was born. I used to hear about him only in brief snatches before the subject was changed. For the longest time I was absolutely convinced that I had stumbled upon the big family secret. I finally got to meet this guy at the funeral of my granddad, his father. I'd already been warned about him (and consequently was already dealing with my future ejection) so naturally I'm all eyes and ears when we hit town. Nothing. He hadn't arrived yet, and I also learned that he certainly wouldn't be staying with us, so just get that idea out of your head right now. I saw him only from afar at the funeral. He was a handsome, well dressed businessman and it became my mission to find out that he owned a small string of hotels across southern Louisiana and was by all accounts quite successful. And don't forget the handsome... uh... business associate that stood ever so uncomfortably by him through the whole thing.

That was one evening my uncle was quite openly discussed at the dinner table... bringing that MAN to his father's funeral. I had all I could stand and went outside to play with the dog.

Things changed that day.

[Gemini Cricket]

I had all I could stand and went outside to play with the dog.

Things changed that day.
You decided you weren't into pu ssy cats. I hear ya.
;)

[alphabassettgrrl]

Yeah, that's an ugly argument either way, and proving either true will disuade no one.
<<snip>>
So in the end, whether it's genetic or environmental is completely moot as the dichotomy runs far deeper than that.
Exactly.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Just wanted to update this with a little more info.

From the Washington Post:

She says her parents -- conservative commentator and perennial candidate Alan Keyes and his wife, Jocelyn -- threw her out of their house, refused to pay her college tuition and stopped speaking to her.

[Nephythys]

Just wanted to update this with a little more info.

From the Washington Post:


and........????? There must be more to that..it seems truncated.

[Gemini Cricket]

and........?????
Wasn't what he did enough? That post seems a little heartless to me.
:(

[Scrooge McSam]

Well... They didn't tell us how FAR they threw her ;)

[Gemini Cricket]

Well... They didn't tell us how FAR they threw her ;)
Seriously.
:rolleyes:

[wendybeth]

I registered just so I could read the article. Yes, what was posted was a synopsis paragraph, but the article elaborates on the statements made in that paragraph. Here's another part:


"During his failed campaign last fall against Barack Obama (D) for the Illinois Senate seat, Alan Keyes lashed out at Mary Cheney, the lesbian daughter of Vice President Cheney. Keyes told a radio interviewer that Mary Cheney was a "selfish hedonist." Then, without having been asked anything about his own family, he volunteered that "if my daughter were a lesbian, I'd look at her and say, 'That is a relationship that is based on selfish hedonism.' I would also tell my daughter that it's a sin and she needs to pray to the Lord God to help her deal with that sin."

Maya heard the comments and recoiled. "It was kind of strange that he said it like a hypothetical," she says. "It was really kind of unpleasant."


He knew at the time that his daughter was gay, yet he makes a statement like that? It get's even better- worth registering to go there and read it.


The man doesn't deserve a great kid like that. What a creep.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Sorry, I should have posted a link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20005-2005Feb12.html) to the story.

For those that don't want to register, here is a bit more:


The end of the campaign brought no respite from the tensions at home. Two weeks ago, her parents said she would have to make her own way. "After all the arguments and tensions over the years, I always hoped it would never actually get to this point," Maya wrote, "although I suppose given our vastly divergent political beliefs, it was inevitable."

But her friends told her no, there was nothing remotely inevitable about the break, that political differences and even sexual orientation ought not result in being kicked out. Maya wrote: "They say most parents would be thrilled to have a child who doesn't smoke, have sex, do drugs, hardly drinks. . . , does well in school, gets good grades, gets into the Ivy League. . . , goes regularly to church, spends free time mentoring kids."

[scaeagles]

I will certainly say this this info changes my opinion drastically. While I have just read it I don't have much to offer, except that.