Thoughts are now being censored

[Morrigoon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18353425/&GT1=9246

Enough already, jeezus. When I was a kid we used to sing "On top of the schoolhouse, all covered with blood, I shot my poor teacher, with a 44 stud"

Holy ****, imagine if we sang that today?

[3894]

This was probably just a kid pushing the envelope. It wasn't the moment.

[Mousey Girl]

I wrote an essay/speach titled, "How to Kill my Sister's Bird."

[Capt Jack]

wouldnt it have been easier to make him redo the assignment?

"Johnny, this really isnt appropriate for a school assignment. In light of current events, could you try and do this again, but with a little less graphic violent content and fewer necrophilic references? I'm sure you can understand my position."

[blueerica]

It would be easy to make him redo the assignment - however, the assignment was to write about the first thing to come to his mind, and to do so without judging or censoring himself. Rather than punish him, I would have hoped that they'd offer counseling of some sort. Typical irrational over-reaction because of the VT thing, in my opinion.

[innerSpaceman]

I'd get in so much trouble if I were in school these days.

[Prudence]

So, all this hand-wringing over missed opportunities and unread signs with the VTech shooter, and instead of providing this kid appropriate treatment, if necessary, they arrested him? Well, it's nice to know we've all learned our lessons.

[Capt Jack]

agreed. nothing like a good bashing to put someone on the straight and narrow.

/end sarcasm

[alphabassettgrrl]

Ouch. I can't imagine. I'm sure he knew it was going to get him in trouble, but it was the assignment. It didn't seem like he actually meant it, even from the excerpt they printed (calculated to give the worst possible impressions).He was saying what if, and honestly, even I have wondered sometimes what it would be like.

Plus he's 18. So it will never go away if they succeed in charging him.

[MouseWife]

He was saying what if, and honestly, even I have wondered sometimes what it would be like.

Plus he's 18. So it will never go away if they succeed in charging him.

Exactly. Even if he isn't directly effected by the recent shootings, everyone is. In some way or another. They should help kids deal with this.

Being 18, he isn't a little kid and not quite yet an adult. He is probably quite troubled with the events. He needs counseling.

I always ask my son if they talk about certain things at school and the normal answer is no. All of these things are in their heads, on their minds.

They ask 'What if?' about everything. We are supposed to help them find the answers and help them be {feel?} secure in this world.

[Alex]

I'm not clear on why he needs counseling.

[MouseWife]

Counseling over punishment.

He is obviously confused and needs help. Not that he is 'messed up', just confused with all that is going on.

I think back to when I was a little girl, we were fed a lot of things. I remember hearing some sort of alarm {I know my husband remembers what they are called as we've discussed this before} that would go off daily. I think in case of attack? Something
military.

Cancers, other illnesses, wars, drive bys, school shootings....it is pretty heavy stuff for kids. I think he was getting it out somehow.

And, 18 isn't an adult. {not that anyone questioned that}

[Kevy Baby]

Why not just a basic caning?

Corporal punishment is a good thing.

[Alex]

I'm still not sure why he needs counseling?

Thousands of kids write things like that every day. I wrote things much worse than that. I think I've said before that a group of us had actual detailed plans for poisoning the French teacher.

All the article mentions is what he wrote and there is nothing in that to indicate a need for counseling. The teacher should have said "really, do you think you can offend me so easily" and then just kept an eye out for any real signs of problems.

But based just on the that information available in that article I see nothing that warrants any action, be it psychological, criminal, or bureaucratic.

[MouseWife]

Well, yeah, but I was choosing between what they did and what they could have done.

But, I still don't think it would do harm to talk to the kid. Could be nothing, could be something.

Maybe he doesn't have anyone to talk to? Unlike yourself.

LOL Kevy Baby, I had to look twice...I thought you said to 'can' him....:blush:

[Alex]

"Unlike myself"?

The single most destructive thing my high school ever did to me was try and force me into counseling (because the didn't like a decision I'd made, they decided I must be on drugs).

Writing bad things is not a sign (all on its own) of problems. And if ever there is a group of people who act on the philosophy of "if you're going to treat me like I did something wrong, I might as well do something wrong" it is teenagers.

[MouseWife]

"Unlike myself"?

The single most destructive thing my high school ever did to me was try and force me into counseling (because the didn't like a decision I'd made, they decided I must be on drugs).

Writing bad things is not a sign (all on its own) of problems. And if ever there is a group of people who act on the philosophy of "if you're going to treat me like I did something wrong, I might as well do something wrong" it is teenagers.

"I think I've said before that a group of us had actual detailed plans for poisoning the French teacher." Unlike yourself who had a group to discuss this 'plan' with. That is what I meant, not judging you on any level. Or being sarcastic.

Group talks can work out problems. That is why talk shows are popular.

That is unfortunate about them trying to force you into counseling. I still say, over punishing this kid, at least attempt to see if there is a problem. If they have to do something, which, with what has been going on so frequently, they probably have to.

Did I ever mention I have 3 kids? Been there sooo done that. Wait, doing that. My son turns 13 tomorrow....

When my kids have written some off the wall things, I have talked to them. Had them explain it to me. That is what a parent is for, to help guide them in their thoughts, they don't always understand why they do and say things.

Sometimes these things have been signs of other things, sometimes not.

[Morrigoon]

It just strikes me as an overreaction.

Granted, an 18-year old should be old enough to realize how sensitive everyone is about shootings and that writing that might be a really stupid idea, however, it's also young enough to be obnoxious and actively break the rules in order to make a point.

[MouseWife]

Well. Hmm. Having kids in public school, I find they have a tendency to over react. Or, under-react when they should do something.

I could list a lot of things I've dealt with. Some being what pushed me to homeschool when I did.

They do try to control the kids, their thinking, and peer into what is going on at home. I just today had to deal with some issue that I felt unfair to my son, some of their 'rules'.

[blueerica]

Yeah, I think it's a matter of choices. They're trying to throw an 18 year old in jail, as opposed to the many other options they could pursue. Counseling is a far kinder option, IMO, if they feel like something "needs to be done." Given that, I don't think anything needed to be done, but clearly, they thought something did. I'm just surprised that they went straight for arrest.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Well, yeah, but I was choosing between what they did and what they could have done.How about this - they could have given the kid his A and not made it seem bad for him to articulate where his imagination takes him.

He is obviously confused and needs help. Not that he is 'messed up', just confused with all that is going on. Huh? I wrote and thought about things like that when I was a teen. Isn't thinking about doing crazy things what being a teenager is all about?

I'm with Alex on this one.

Perhaps I shouldn't post what I still sometimes daydream about...


Group talks can work out problems. That is why talk shows are popular. I just have to point out that just because something is on TV, it doesn't make it true. I do hope you're kidding. (Not that there's anything wrong with group talks.)

[scaeagles]

If you don't think like the masses, you need help.

If you think things that the establishment thinks are harmful, you need help, and God help you if you put those thoughts on paper or say them.

It is nothing different than the Imus thing or a campus speech code. It makes me sick.

Words are deemed to have special power regardless of any accompanying action.

I wonder if anyone thinks the kid to be disturbed, or if they just don't want to be held accountable should he shoot someone and the media begins probing them as the why they didn't reach out to the obvious cries for help as denoted in his writings. It's a CYA.

It's this way in politics. God help you if you don't believe in man made global warming (and even if you say you do, you can go ahead and fly on your private jets to political debates because you're important, damn it, but that's another story), or if you go onto a campus with protesters who have no desire to hear what you say or even let others hear what you want to say.

What separates this from the VA Tech incident is this kid hasn't done anything illegal. Leading up to the VA Tech incident, the shooter had been detained and ruled unstable, but in an odd twist, he couldn't be stopped from going to school.

How about we start holding people accountable for what they do and not for what they think? If that had happened at VA Tech, those 32 people would still be alive.

[wendybeth]

The teacher encourages the kids to write without fear of being censored, then turns his writings over to the principal, who then turns the essay over to the cops......Judas priest. So much for not censoring. How ironic that his plans to become a Marine are now in jeopardy as a result of this little exercise.

[RStar]

First of all, I think it was wrong fro the teacher to turn the paper over to authorities. It doesn't say if she first went to the school counsler or principal for advice. But she broke the trust with her students by doing that.

Second, I don't know if that line was taken out of text. Was it a quote of some character in a short story? If not, the statement that it would be funny if he had sex with dead bodies he had just shot was very sick and demented. I never had thoughts like that when I was his age, and never will. If that is what is going through his head, then yes, he needs counseling.

[MouseWife]

How about this - they could have given the kid his A and not made it seem bad for him to articulate where his imagination takes him.

But that isn't what was decided, we are not talking about what should or could have been done. But what they decided to do after the fact.

Huh? I wrote and thought about things like that when I was a teen. Isn't thinking about doing crazy things what being a teenager is all about?

To quote scaegles "I wonder if anyone thinks the kid to be disturbed, or if they just don't want to be held accountable should he shoot someone and the media begins probing them as the why they didn't reach out to the obvious cries for help as denoted in his writings. It's a CYA."

Sounds to me why this teacher did what she did.


I'm with Alex on this one.

I am actually not against him. As a parent, if my child were facing these issues {which he is, we can't go back and give him that 'A'} I would rather he have counseling than go to jail. Ultimate 'rather', being of course, to drop the matter completely. Perhaps the 'counseling' would do that? But, I haven't heard that being an offer, to drop the whole thing?

Perhaps I shouldn't post what I still sometimes daydream about...

LOL Around here? You're kidding, right? ;)

I just have to point out that just because something is on TV, it doesn't make it true. I do hope you're kidding. (Not that there's anything wrong with group talks.)

You can point that out but I didn't say anything about believing people on t.v. And, I'm not kidding. I know that certain subjects on certain talk shows can really help. You are not considering the masses of people who don't have groups to talk with. People to talk to.

Everyone doesn't have a group of friends to debate with, laugh with, or to bounce jokes/ideas like that off of. That is reality.

If his parents can fight any of it, I would. But, if they only have two choices, well, you know mine.

[Alex]

Perhaps I shouldn't post what I still sometimes daydream about...

I still develop a suicide plan almost daily. Just something I think about in quiet movies; not at all suicidal, just curious how I would do it.

"Today...how would I do it so that Lani is caused minimal anxiety..."

"Today...how would I do it so that makes the news..."


Anyway, if I were the kid and given the choice between facing these charges and going into counseling (and I don't feel I need counseling, it may well be the case that this kid has exhibited a suite of problems that aren't mentioned in the article), then I'd face the charges. There's (should be) no way they'd get a conviction and if they get you into counseling against your will they've won.

[3894]

1. Eh, it was a bad assignment, especially in the light of the VA Tech murders. When you teach, you learn not to do this kind of stuff, just like you learn not to assign anything about families and on and on and on.

2. What purpose did the assignment serve? Just putting down the first thing that comes into your head is not creative writing. It's automatic writing and the Surrealists loved it for getting in touch with the subconscious. Ask someone to do automatic writing and turn it in and you're going to get all kinds of violent and sexy stuff. Automatic writing is far more a clinical tool than an artistic one. Actual creative writing requires far more discipline and skill than just writing the first thought that comes into your head.

[blueerica]

Oh hell, guys... I had pages upon pages in my journal devoted to how I was going to kill my stepfather. I'm okay today, he was an abusive asshole, and yeah - I probably needed help. If someone found that book, I would hope that I got help instead of a prison sentence.


Who knows what's going on in this kids life? Not you, nor I, nor likely his teachers. If it's cause enough to do anything at all (and I'm not saying it was), wouldn't it be more logical to have the situation evaluated before jumping the gun and arresting him?

[Strangler Lewis]

I don't know what Illinois's disorderly conduct statute says, but in California it's fairly clear that actual threats of violence to a targeted person or his family are criminal. On the other hand, the statute "is not violated by mere angry utterances or ranting soliloquies, however violent. One may, in private, curse one's enemies, pummel pillows, and shout revenge for real or imagined wrongs--safe from section 422 sanction.”

If the question is could an assignment be deemed the opportunity for a student to make an actual criminal threat, the answer would have to be yes, although that would be a jury question. There's a California case where a student in art class painted a picture of himself shooting his teacher (not his art teacher) in the head. Of course, he was convicted, but the court of appeal reversed because there was no evidence that the student anticipated showing the painting to the teacher in question or that he knew that the teacher would see the painting.

I don't think what the kid wrote can be interpreted as an actual threat. Even if it could, then you'd get into interesting issues of entrapment if school teachers are now effectively agents of law enforcement for purpose of ferreting out antisocial thoughts.

Life is a law school hypo.

[innerSpaceman]

Eh, whatever. If the incident saves the kid from his own assholery of wanting to be Marine, maybe it was the best thing that ever could have happened to him.

If he wises up a bit (sorry, but I assume everyone who wants to go to war to be either a retard or the sick fvck his creative writing assignment implies) ... he will sue the school district and be independently wealthy in a decade or so.

[MouseWife]

2. What purpose did the assignment serve? Just putting down the first thing that comes into your head is not creative writing. It's automatic writing and the Surrealists loved it for getting in touch with the subconscious. Ask someone to do automatic writing and turn it in and you're going to get all kinds of violent and sexy stuff. Automatic writing is far more a clinical tool than an artistic one. Actual creative writing requires far more discipline and skill than just writing the first thought that comes into your head.

This really struck an idea into my head. Perhaps the teacher/principal felt that they needed to do this to see what was going on inside the kids' heads. I don't know.

[scaeagles]

Some of the greatest people I've known and some of the greatest kids I've coached have gone to serve in the military and I admire them for wanting to serve and protect their country. No military, no U.S.A. Granted, that's somewhat off topic, but I had to say it.

[wendybeth]

Just think, that kid was ready to lay his life down to protect the freedoms of the very people who are sticking it to him. Actually, I don't think what you point out is off-topic, Scaeagles. That's the thing I find so ironic about this.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Just think, that kid was ready to lay his life down to protect the freedoms of the very people who are sticking it to him. Eh, anyone in the military is always restricted from certain freedoms.

But that isn't what was decided, we are not talking about what should or could have been done. But what they decided to do after the fact. I still maintain that someone at any given point should have said "this is ridiculous, give the kid his A and let's forget about the whole thing." But as scaeagles said, in our litigious, finger pointing society, this just isn't possible anymore. Anyone with a brain is going to get shouted down for not "taking every precaution."

Hmm, which country to move to...

I still develop a suicide plan almost daily. God bless Alex Stroup. :) I've done this a-plenty, but not lately.

Things I daydream about:

Punching people and smashing things (born of pure frustration)
My own death and the deaths of others, often including funerals (always very dramatic accidents)
What I'd do if someone ran the red light at the next corner/pulled out of the driveway up ahead/slammed on the brakes in front of me on the freeway. Sometimes these are so vivid, I flinch.

[wendybeth]

I think everyone has weird or disturbing thoughts, especially at this kid's age. I'm far more disturbed by the teacher reneging on the amnesty offer at the outset of this assignment.

CP- wait until you have a kid. Nothing you can imagine can surpass the awful, fantastic imagery one can conjure up with regards to their kids. Everything from 'what if the babysitter snaps!" to ways to do yourself in should the worst happen to your child. You think you want to murder the guy who cuts you off on the expressway? You should see what I'd like to do to the bastard who caused Tori's hearing loss, or the kid who makes a snide crack about how she speaks, etc.


I have a very good imagination.:evil:

[blueerica]

Though I don't have kids of my own, most have no idea what I'd like to do to the doctors that botched my sisters' surgery on her ear. Knowing what we know now, she should never have undergone anything, now she's deaf in one ear, and growth of the ear is stunted. She has nerve damage, and has gone through phys therapy to gain some of her smile. Unfortunately my dad and her mom didn't have their *crap* together enough to do the right thing before, during and after.

It's these reasons that I'm hesitant to have kids. I know how much I love my three (much) younger sisters. I couldn't imagine how it would be to have kids of my own.

[blueerica]

Apparently I typed up something last night and never sent it. I got a phone call and must have just closed the window.

One of my favorite teachers, Ms. Slaughter, changed my life in the 5th grade. I think it was for the better, but she was about as unconventional as it got in the middle-of-nowhere Michigan. Of course, with a name like Slaughter, she'd heard just about everything. She was different from the other teacher. On the more pop-side of music, she was into Depeche Mode, and she liked bands I'd never even heard of - though they were punk... of sorts. She was cool, with her flaming red, curly hair that was cropped short, but in an avant garde style. My... She wore a lot of black and her eyes were a blue green. Wow, I'm surprised I remembered so much.

She helped me in an early rough time in my life. My grades were slipping, to the point that I might have had to re-take 5th grade if something didn't change. She changed it, worked with my organization, worked with handling school work and talked to me about my homelife, which was awful at that time.

But, one thing I do remember, and I wish I knew how we got onto the topic. I can't remember now if it was the whole class or just a handful of us. Maybe it was even some time when I was talking to her on my own, but I doubt that. We were talking about punishment, death... that sort of thing. We were discussing "what would be the worst way to die?" I know, it sounds strange, but we talked about all kinds of things. They were childish, but it was fun, in a different way. It really got us to think outside of the box, I guess. Oh, and we decided a razor blade slide heading into a lemon-juice filled pool would be the worst.

To my knowledge, no one in my 5th grade class turned out "bad" from the experience. And if anything, I remember we all ended up being pretty good, brainy students. We were put into the class because it was something new the district was trying with a group of us kids - Instead of being in the same class all day like the other students, we had a rotation where it would be art focused, science focused, and "social studies" focused. I remember playing chess, there was even a bracket system. It seemed like we had a lot of free time to explore in that class.

Wow, now that I'm thinking back, she was even better than I thought.

[3894]

a razor blade slide heading into a lemon-juice filled pool

I hate it when that happens.

[MouseWife]

I still maintain that someone at any given point should have said "this is ridiculous, give the kid his A and let's forget about the whole thing." But as scaeagles said, in our litigious, finger pointing society, this just isn't possible anymore. Anyone with a brain is going to get shouted down for not "taking every precaution."

Hmm, which country to move to...

Things I daydream about:

Punching people and smashing things (born of pure frustration)
My own death and the deaths of others, often including funerals (always very dramatic accidents)
What I'd do if someone ran the red light at the next corner/pulled out of the driveway up ahead/slammed on the brakes in front of me on the freeway. Sometimes these are so vivid, I flinch.


Sure, of course, if he'd have received an 'A' we wouldn't be here discussing this.

That is a bit of a wide range lable to say people with brains are shot down for not taking every precaution. Everyone can justify whatever they do, or don't do, after the fact.

You do have to learn from mistakes.{previous school/workplace shootings, etc.} They shouldn't have taken it this far. If they did indeed do this assignment to 'test' the kids, they should have had the school psychologist talk to the kid. Believe me, they do this all of the time and parents probably don't even know. And, that could have solved the whole mess.

Some teachers are overzealous and use their positions to be a-holes. My nephew told his teacher 'You suck!' and the teacher said he was going to file a sexual harrassment type of complaint against this 12 year old kid. My sister told him he was the one with the dirty mind and perhaps he shouldn't be working with kids.

Oh yes, where the imagination takes us when someone hurts our kids.

Road rage???? Sure, the imagination goes a bit wild while driving. Especially after a really good work out, I feel totally pumped. Ready to get out and act upon my urges. But then I laugh and remember I am not really so tough. :D

But, the imagination can bring about precautions. Thinking about what could happen makes you think about what you should/could do in those instances.

blueerica~ your teacher sounds really cool. A bit like Not Afraid, even with the hair. :cool: