Erica's Wild Coffee Tangent

[blueerica]

And I think that where you work is the coffee and tea that you begin to prefer. You prefer the methods that they use because you learn what they tell you. Starbucks will tell you why their coffee is better and their methods are better than Peets. Peets will do the same for Starbucks. I think I make damn good coffee and that Starbucks and Peets taste about the same. I'll drink either and won't sit there and make a fuss about how much xyz sucks. But in the end I prefer where I worked (which is a coffee cart) and private coffee houses (gypsy, coffee que, Natales) over corporate stores.

Yes and no on the coffee preferences. I can see that it's because of where I worked, but a lot of the coffee stuff breaks down into coffee knowledge on the part of the customers and the employees. If you read, I also said that a lot of Peet's employees don't get it right, either. For me, there are temperature differences that account for good flavor and bad - plus, it's a little disturbing to walk into a Starbucks only to see a bunch of milk being made without a barista attending it, only to have them set it on top of the machine for anything over a minute or two. I've seen it time and time again, and that's just not high-quality. It's gross.

Even the employees at the Starbucks I used to love to go to wouldn't know the difference between their coffees. If someone asks what a coffee tastes like (say, Kenyan, for example) chances are, they don't want some made up answer. I'd love to challenge someone from Starbucks on why their coffee's better... though it's been over 8 months since I've worked at Peet's I've probably retained more knowledge than most ever learned about coffees and teas and can tell the differences in regions, countries. Coffee is a sensory experience - even coffee flavored coffee... which isn't what Starbucks excels at.

As for the real differences between Peet's and Starbucks coffee, its mainly in their roasting technique. Peet's is all hand-roasted deep. Starbucks carries a wide variety of flavors and roasts, and most of them are pretty good (if the batch wasn't burned in the machine, as I've had before). It's all in how it's prepared.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yeah, my biggest problem recently with Starbucks has not been the flavor (there are items there I like and items I don't), it's been consistency of preparation. Too many times things come out wrong (too watered down, not mixed well enough, proportions off). I personally don't really care enough to make a stink about it, but it's frustrating and reminds me why I rarely go to any coffee shop at all.

[BarTopDancer]

Consistency is the key anywhere. Even the best of the best can't be consistent 100% of the time.

My problem with what you keep saying is that having never worked at Starbucks you're going based upon your customer experiences there. Not the training or lack there of that you received. Broad assumptions are being made about what they do and how they do it. We have at least one poster here who works at Starbucks. Perhaps said poster will make an appearance and enlighten us.

If Peets were that much better than Starbucks they would have given them a better run for their money. But the fact is, the consumer is happy with Starbucks, with Peets, with whatever is closest. Maybe they don't have the all-knowing insight to either store to make an informed judgment as to why they should like one company over the other. All they know is they like what they like. If Starbucks was that bad people would gravitate to other choices and they would not be around anymore.

It's like fast food. Take a plain ol McDonalds, Wendy's, Carls and BK burger (just the plain basic burger) and put them side by side. The consumer may have their preference but in the end they are all fast food hamburgers. In the end these are all corporate coffee houses.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If Peets were that much better than Starbucks they would have given them a better run for their money.Yeah, that's totally why McDonald's ruled fast food for decades, because it's so much better.

[BarTopDancer]

Yeah, that's totally why McDonald's ruled fast food for decades, because it's so much better.

They're losing ground fast. They keep revamping their menu to keep up.

I'm not saying Peets isn't better in my opinion. I don't care either way. I'm saying that if Peet's were that much better as in they are just as good (if not a little better) than Starbucks.

[Ghoulish Delight]

They're losing ground fast. They keep revamping their menu to keep up.

I'm not saying Peets isn't better in my opinion. I don't care either way. I'm saying that if Peet's were that much better as in they are just as good (if not a little better) than Starbucks.
Do you really think it's because the quality changed? It literally took decades with McDonald's at the top for the others to catch up. So I can't exactly take Starbucks continued dominance to be proof that Peets doesn't have a better product.

[blueerica]

Actually, Peet's development has more to do with the long-standing beliefs of those who started the company. They didn't want to go global. Starbucks was a first with that, and has used incredible marketing skills, much to their credit.

In fact, there is a lot that coffee drinkers have Starbucks to thank for. After all, had it not been for Starbucks, gourmet coffee wouldn't even be on the map. It would be relegated to a handful of small shops in random places around the world.

By the same token Starbucks has lot to thank Peet's for, as it was Alfred Peet who inspired the idea to take the coffee to another level. Jerry Baldwin, one of the founders of Starbucks was trained by Peet in the art of roasting coffee.

While my experiences with Starbucks have only been from a consumer standpoint, it seems as though Starbucks doesn't actually enforce and quality controls - and that has nothing to do with Peet's, or any coffee company for that matter. If Starbucks did enforce quality control, drinks would be consistently of at least one quality, not varying so wildly from barista to barista.

I could go on a Dietrich's tangent as well. The company changed and went downhill as it became increasingly corporate, lending itself to the very spotty quality one finds in Dietrich's. They used to have some of the finest coffee in the Southland, and now - you don't know what you're getting when you walk into one of their stores. In fact, it got to the point that Martin Dietrich left and started up a new coffee business, Keane - which, by the way, makes the best coffee ever and has the most knowledgeable staff on the planet.

[BarTopDancer]

In the end all we're doing is throwing around opinions on what we think is a better product. I used the hamburger reference because it applies. In the end Peets, Starbucks and even Dietrichs are the *fast food* of the coffee world. Mass production of a consumable. Not because I think McDonalds is best. I don't like McDonalds and went nearly 4 years without eating at one for no other reason then I don't like their food.

We also have to keep in mind that we have educated palettes. We have the luxury of having hole in the wall restaurants, independent coffee places and the like at our fingertips. I doubt we are the majority.

[Ponine]

There again, you have a great many people like me.
I was never a coffee drinker... couldnt tell one roast from another. (still cant)
BUT... they built a starbucks or two on my way to work.
Now, I drink coffee-like beverages.

I know where there is a Deithrichs, and a Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf.
(Alas, I have no idea where a Peets is)
I also frequent two hole in the wall coffee shops.

Why? Because they are there. Becuase they wake me up.
One of the hole in the walls has a great pesto bagel.
One has a great coffee called a Chocolate Candy Bar.
I dont go for the coffee... I go because I lack the initiative to make myself breakfast.

Is it about the quality of the coffee? No.
Can I tell you if a Starbucks barista made my beverage wrong? Only if they forgot a flavoring.

McDonalds was a great example from a marketing aspect. (as is Starbucks) There was a time anywhere you went you saw the Golden Arches.
It was predictable. You knew what you were getting no matter where you were.
A four piece nugget in So Cal is a four piece nugget in Indianapolis.

A Peppermint mocha will be the same.

I'm not sure what started this thread,but I agree with a great deal of what BE is saying.
Marketing, and education is what put these companies where they are.
They are the Joneses the rest of world is keeping up with.

Yes, McD's is revamping their menu. But they are still one of the most recognizable brands in the industry. And truly, werent they changing to keep up with the healthy choices being offered by the other chains?

(I've now totally lost my train of thought)

[AllyOops!]

Here's the deal, folks. If I can't tell a coffee bean from a lima bean, do my opinions & taste suddenly "not count"? I likes what I likes and there you have it. Juan Valdez & his trusty burro could show up at my door & educate me and I'd still offer to take them to Starbucks for frappy's. Well, maybe not the burro. I'd give him fresh carrots & cuddles but dammit, this isn't about the way I feed and love our burro friends, people. This is about COFFEE. I think. I never know when I start to ramble. :p

I ♥ Buck Bucks. I also ♥ Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf. Peet's. Seattle's Best. The Folger's I brew in my pot. Bring it on 'cause I like it all! Unless Starbuck's operates entirely on the funds of coffee loving serial killers or donated heavily to the OJ defense, I'm still goin'. I mean,The friggin' burger dances on my friggin' tastebuds with delight. Whether it comes from Mc Donald's or not is beside the point (FYI- I don't touch fast food since it wigs me out so I should really shut up now- but you aren't gettin' that lucky.) :p

In the end it's all opinion, not gospel. Unless of course, it's my opinion. My opinion is gospel & fact. But you already knew that. :p ;)

[Strangler Lewis]

There is definitely a time and place for a bad cup of coffee. Usually when one is dining alone and the waitress (CM?) brings you a mug of coffee with the coffee spilling over the side and the spoon already in the mug. In the same vein: the doughnut shop. Pulling an all-nighter. In your parents' house: anyone up for a Sanka with CoffeeMate?

There are also times and places when a bad cup of coffee, like a bad house wine, is very disappointing though perhaps not surprising.

What was that waiter's name again?

Jean-Luc.

[Gemini Cricket]

One of the things I heard working at Borders' Seattle's Best Cafe was that Starbucks resteams their milk. Apparently that's not a good thing. (It's kind of funny that they mentioned this because Starbucks owns SBC...)

[Not Afraid]

There are also times and places when a bad cup of coffee, like a bad house wine, is very disappointing though perhaps not surprising.

What was that waiter's name again?

Jean-Luc.

My brain is being tickled. I feel like I should know of this reference, but, like a sneeze that just won't happen, i can't get the memory to surface.

[Alex]

Considering I think all coffee is vile so this thread is kind of like discussing the best way to prepare piss, I still get the reference.

Old ('80s) International Coffee commercial.

[€uroMeinke]

One of the perks of my new job is all you can drink coffee - which happens to be Starbucks' House Blend. I'm fine with that becasue it's a far cry better than what usually gets served in a Corporate environment.

Of course, I miss the Peets I would bring in to my old workplace and prepare it in a French Press. Yeah the beans are important, but French Press is the best preparation for good beans. In fact, one of the things I'm really looking forward to about camping is having some French Press Peets in the middle of the Sequoia's - That will be a moment of Coffee-Bliss.

[Gemini Cricket]

There's a coffee machine at my workplace's break room. You put a unopened package of coffee/tea/cocoa in the hopper and in a couple of seconds you have a cup of coffee. The bag goes away and everything. It's the coolest thing.

[€uroMeinke]

There's a coffee machine at my workplace's break room. You put a unopened package of coffee/tea/cocoa in the hopper and in a couple of seconds you have a cup of coffee. The bag goes away and everything. It's the coolest thing.

They have those in our Chicago Office - with a good selection of beans and flavors.

[BarTopDancer]

There's a coffee machine at my workplace's break room. You put a unopened package of coffee/tea/cocoa in the hopper and in a couple of seconds you have a cup of coffee. The bag goes away and everything. It's the coolest thing.

We had one of those in my old company. They were fun to play with and make creative drinks.

When it was just technology in our suite I would bring in my mini-espresso maker and we'd have a mini-espresso/coffee set-up. That was fun.

[Stan4dSteph]

Part of going to Starbucks is the experience though, not just the coffee. They actively market themselves as the "third place," after home and work. I like to go there and get a coffee, maybe a pastry, and hang out with my book. In the winter there might be a fire in the fireplace. The Peet's I've been to have very limited lounging spaces (Town & Country in Palo Alto is one). That's just not their thing. That's cool, but if I want to hang out at the coffee place, Peet's isn't my first choice.

Of course, I don't have the choice of Peet's. Here it's Dunkin' Donuts vs. Starbucks. I don't like DD and I'm always tempted to get one of their muffins until I remember that they have about 30g of fat in them.

[Strangler Lewis]

Yeah the beans are important, but French Press is the best preparation for good beans.

Making a good cup of espresso is like assembling a fine watch or performing microsurgery; minor mistakes and slight contamination ruin the finished product.

I always start by thoroughly brushing the old grounds out of my grinder. I favor sable paint brushes because the old oil adheres to them better. I've also come to the conclusion that one must sacrifice a scoop of beans to avoid having to push necessary amounts of finely ground beans into the basket with my fingers, thus contaminating the coffee with skin oil.

The other thing I've started to do is take a damp paper towel and wipe down the heads of the espresso maker itself. Why clean the grinder if the water is going to be pumped through heads caked with yesterday's grounds?

Now comes the tricky part. Paper towels contain acid; small flecks of paper will inevitably stick to the expresso heads, and the fact that they are wet means that some of that acid will leech out onto the espresso heads, ruining the Ph balance of the coffee.

So what I do is I take one of those Sharper Image minivacs, the kind men use to vacuum dead skin cells out of their pubic hair, and I hold it close to--but not against--the espresso machine heads. This does the trick and yields a perfect cup of espresso every time.

The minivacs are a bit pricey, but it's worth it. Of course, if you live with someone, you'll probably have to buy two just to keep the peace. Much in the way that when I started going through a quart a day of stewed tomatoes for prostate health, my wife made me buy my own baster.

[blueerica]

The Peet's I've been to have very limited lounging spaces (Town & Country in Palo Alto is one). That's just not their thing. That's cool, but if I want to hang out at the coffee place, Peet's isn't my first choice.


Observant. Nice.

Yes, it's actually the intent in the Peet's store design. They get their coffee, they get their information, they go. It's even directly stated in one of the training sessions.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I don't really consider myself a coffee snob. I'm likely to drink what is available to get my coffee fix, whether it be Starbucks or ::shudder:: 7-11. Given the choice, however, I want the best flavor I can get and that means Peet's. I'm fortunate enough to live next door to one so this isn't a problem. When I am away from home though, I still drink coffee, I just don't enjoy it as much.

Starbucks is good at what they do, which is really all about specialty drinks. I have had many a fine pumpkin latte in my day. I think they excel at that sort of thing. But, I'm not really into those drinks. I just want a good, pure, cup of coffee, and in that regard, Peet's is the best I've found. The flavor nuances and subtleties are something that I can't get anywhere else. And for all their spiffy concoctions, Starbucks is pretty inferior when it comes to a simple, good-tasting cup of coffee.

[Betty]

Oh come on - no one is going to comment on that post by Strangler. That was hilarious! ;)

[Alex]

It was once said that Starbucks is not in the business of selling coffee, they're in the business of selling milk.

[SacTown Chronic]

Much in the way that when I started going through a quart a day of stewed tomatoes for prostate health, my wife made me buy my own baster.Smart woman, your wife.

[blueerica]

His post was brilliant, yet, frighteningly... close to the truth when it comes to espresso purists. Vacuum cleaners are great for cleaning grinders and espresso machines - I would imagine a mini-vac would be great for personal machines.

On a side note, I did go through the Starbucks drive through that's a block away from our old Starbucks, BTD. And I got a cup of coffee - which, like I said, is about all I can get from them - well, maybe iced coffee and tea. Sure, specialty coffee drinks are what they do best, but I'm still unconvinced on the quality.

I'll still go there, simply because it's convenient. And Peet's won't be getting drive-thrus any time soon... Actually, a Peet's drive-thru would really make life awesome for me...

[Alex]

My problem with Peets is twofold.

1. It smells more strongly of coffee than is my general experience with coffee shops and I hate the smell of coffee (before you ask I'm only ever in there when Lani is getting some).

2. At least for the few shops that seem to be the only ones where we end up there not only isn't room for lounging (a reasonable business decision) but there generally isn't room for the people in there ordering. The one on Lakeshore in Oakland is about 4 miles deep but only 18 inches wide. You literally (literally used metaphorically) have to crowd surf to get from the door to the back of the line and then again to get from the register to the condiments bar. And there's only 15 people in there.

[alphabassettgrrl]

It was once said that Starbucks is not in the business of selling coffee, they're in the business of selling milk.

That's because I can't drink the coffee. Needs to be diluted beyond recognition. :)

I'm a fru-fru coffee girl. I drink it heavily polluted with milk and sugar. Flavored syrups if they're available. But Starbuck's is just too bitter for me, generally.

[Moonliner]

Amusing aside.....

A friend of mine is in marketing. A few years back he was working with Burger King. While driving around with an executive VP ultra-mucky muck for the company they decided on a whim to hit In-and-out for lunch. The VP had never been to one and thought he should try it given that BK was getting killed anytime an In-and-out opened near them.

When the VP commented how good the burger was my friend inquired why BK, the much larger company, could not make a burger as good or better. In short his reply was that In-and-out really cares about their food. BK on the other hand is really more of a real estate company than a food store.

[Snowflake]

I go to Starbucks because it is the McDonald's of coffee spots, you fall over one every other block. I also go because my boss is addicted and I pick up a drink for her when I am on the way in to the office.

I'm primarily a tea drinker myself, I like the chai latte from Starbucks, but I drink not too many of them, even with non-fat milk, too much sugar for me (see the calorie counts for SB drinks on their site, it's horrifying and as bad as McDonalds burgers in comparison)

I feel SB pretty much burns the beans, but I felt that way about Peets, too (used to be our office coffee many moons ago). I'm not a coffee snob, I drink it rarely, enjoy a good latte or cappuccino every so often. My little stovetop bialetti uses Illy decaf.

[katiesue]

I have a very limited sense of taste. I think it's from years of allergies making me unable to smell things very well, and smell is a component of taste. So coffee is coffee to me. I can tell if somehting is stronger but I can't taste any subtelty in the flavors. My boss can go on and on about the hints of this and that but it's just coffee to me. Which is why I hardly ever frequent any coffee establishments. I have whatever we make at work and occassionally I make it at home. Otherwise I don't go out of my way. I can get my cafiene from my Tab if I need it.

[Kevy Baby]

It was once said that Starbucks is not in the business of selling coffee, they're in the business of selling milk.I went to a presentation on one-to-one marketing. One discussion was about the evolution of a cup of coffee and what it meant. It has been a while, so I know some of the details will be screwed up, but you will get the gist of it.

During the time that we were a primarily an industrial economy, coffee meant that you got it for a nickel in a paper cup.

Later, when we became a "Convenience" economy, you could get pre-ground coffee at the local supermarket (think about those large tins of Folgers) and use your percolator at home. Coffee was about a quarter per cup.

As we shifted to a "Service" economy, and offices had a coffee machine with two or three pots and a person would come in from the vending company to restock the premeasured packets, filters, etc.


Now (the speaker argued) we are shifting into an "Experience" economy where we are paying for the experience. In the case of Starbucks (which was the natural evolution of the train of thought), one is paying for the "experience". Jerry Baldwin had been to France and fell in love with the Bistros there. He loved the "neighborhood meeting place" feel of the Bistros. He basically wanted to recreate that experience here for his customers and built the Starbucks experience around that idea. They have always tried to make the stores (at least most of them - there are a lot of exceptions now) a place where one could go and relax, meet with friends and enjoy a relaxing cup of coffee.

Not making argument one way or the other about Starbucks; I just wanted to share the story.

(BTW: the speaker was Tim Sanders, director of Yahoo's in-house think tank. He is also the author of an interesting book, Love Is the Killer App: How to Win Business and Influence Friends (http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1400046831/ref=s9_asin_title_1-serq_g1/002-2380405-8143264?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-4&pf_rd_r=10J4CTHBJP41N2H68K4Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=288448701&pf_rd_i=507846).)

[FEJ]

My 2 cents:

Starbucks made it big by marketing to youth. They even say so on their website.
They do not have the best coffee, but the most convenient. "We always figured that putting people before products just made good common sense. So far, it’s been working out for us. Our relationships with farmers yield the highest quality coffees. " link (http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/)

Speaking of comparing McDonalds to Starbucks, their coffee beat Starbucks for flavor in a recent test.Link (http://mcd.bloggingstocks.com/2006/10/02/mcdonalds-coffee-tastes-better-than-starbucks/)

My favorites are Keane' and Home Brewed.

[blueerica]

I really need a trip to Keane right about now. Never been to Home Brewed.

[FEJ]

I really need a trip to Keane right about now. Never been to Home Brewed.

I meant what I brew at home :)

[blueerica]

Oh man, I'm laughing so hard right now - Thank you Fej

[Not Afraid]

Hey, I was with Erica on this one.

[blueerica]

Someone should open a shop called "Home Brewed." Maybe I'll do it!

[Not Afraid]

My home brew is Peets.

[BarTopDancer]

I have no idea what my *home brew* is since it's brewed via a peculator in my second home and not by me. But it's the only coffee I'll drink black.

[Ghoulish Delight]

For my money, I've found Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf to be the most consistent at delivering drinks that I like. And I just noticed today that they've finally started selling loose leaf tea instead of just tea bags. Yay!

Of course, I say "for my money" in a mostly figurative sense since 90% of the time that I'm in there, I'm using a gift card.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

My home brew is Peets.

As is mine. I usually just pick up a half-pound at a time, pre-ground for a french press and I'm good for the week.

I know I should probably grind my own for better freshness but cleaning the french press is time-consuming enough for me.

Today, I have a fresh new bag of Sumatra calling to me and we are about to have a rendezvous. :)

[blueerica]

Mmm... I'm tempted to pick up a half pound since I'll be right by a Peet's in a few minutes...

[blueerica]

So, yum...

After going to the movies, I dropped by Peet's and found a manager I knew from a different store, Scott, who's an awesome manager. Plus, he gave me my drink for free.

I normally don't go for fancy drinks, but I was practically dreaming about their iced lattes. They lay down milk foam, then ice, then pour the espresso and milk at the same time, giving it that familiar latte foam head... MMmmm! Mmmm! Iced soy latte! Fantastic!

[lizziebith]

We get free Peet's at work, and it's okay, but I still prefer certain Starbucks varieties. Granted the Peet's is pre-ground, which horrifies me!

I worked at Starbucks in the VERY early 1990s. Back then, you had to attend a week of coffee school before you were allowed to become a barista. We learned how to taste the different components in the flavor of coffee on different parts of our tongues. We learned the characteristics of the 26-odd regional and blended whole bean selections we typically sold. We learned all about temperatures, acidity, pressure...well you get the picture! It was hardcore and I loved it!

I recently asked a barista if Starbucks had them go to coffee school still, and the kid looked at me like I had eye-stalks! And you can tell from their menu that they don't require knowledge anymore -- they mostly offer blends. Phooey!

I can still taste the difference between an Ethiopian coffee, and Indonesian coffee, a Mexican coffee...and usually to the area too. Stupid skill to have really... :blush:

Anyway, coffee school broke me of the habit of putting cream in my coffee -- now I like it pure!

[blueerica]

Yeah, it did seem that Starbucks employees used to really know their stuff... It sounds funny to most, but I think I'll always be able to tell the difference now, because of all the time that I spent learning about the differences. I think if all these places took the time to do even half the amount of training you had to do to become a barista, the quality of coffee drinks would skyrocket!

That and I pretty much never put cream in coffee, also... Interesting...

[FEJ]

I used to listen to the Coffee Geek (http://www.coffeegeek.com/) podcast all the time.

There is an art to being a barista..lost at starbucks.
They opened another one recently...now 3 on 17th street...and the kids are nothing more than cafe cashiers it seems. Even the espresso has it's own spout on the machine..no longer have to tamp it out, etc...

Sigh... I do miss a good cup of Jamacian Blue Mountain, or a zinging Sumatra...

[blueerica]

Jamaican Blue Mountain - that stuff is FANTASTIC.

Not only was Katrina devastating to the populations down there - it messed with one of the finest coffees in the WORLD!

[Stan4dSteph]

I thought that the people in the black aprons at Starbucks were the ones who had gone to the coffee class and were the experts. I think to be a manager you have to do that.

Y'all need to go to New Zealand. They don't even really drink regular drip coffee. It's all about espresso drinks. They have a National Barista Awards (http://www.nationalbaristaawards.co.nz/index.php?sk=758371402b454f46dcb365f3a5105d22&wt=news#000000012), although apparently not this year for some reason. The coffee festival (http://www.coffeefestival.co.nz/) is coming up in August. :coffee: