How fvcking stupid do you have to be...

[Ghoulish Delight]

...to wear a "Free Michael Vick" shirt...

...On a national broadcast?

Story (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3149600).

The dude plead guilty to his crimes. He's not some political prisoner, with trumped up charges. He's a freaking criminal.

Homer: I was a political prisoner!
Marge: How were you a political prisoner?
Homer: I kicked a giant mouse in the butt! Do I have to draw a diagram?

Perhaps the NFL should suspend the idiot for supporting an admitted felon.

[Snowflake]

Clearly, pretty stupid, I'd say.

[blueerica]

Lame.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If it had just been the dude who painted Vick's # on his face fine. They were teammates, likely friends, and convicted felon or not, one can still support a friend. But "I support him and wish him the best" is different than "Free the criminal!"

Dumb jocks.

[Alex]

Recognizing that someone was guilty of a crime does not mean you can't feel that the crime shouldn't be illegal.

I'll happily wear a t-shirt that says "free all non-violent drug offenders." And I'll do it on national TV if given the chance.

Personally, I have a hard time fitting animal cruelty laws into my fundamental ideas of government and criminalization. For purely selfish emotional reasons I want the act criminalized but I admit to having to twist myself into a bit of a pretzel to justify it without simply saying "because I think so." A lot of people don't think dogfighting should be a crime and that even if he admitted to it Vick didn't really do anything wrong.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm with you on supporting convicted felons of crimes you don't think should be criminal (drug offenses a great example).

But can you really come up with no rational reason for crimilizing harm to animals? What is the difference between that and harm to humans that's not simply anthropocentric "I want it so" rationalization?

[Ghoulish Delight]

What is the difference between that and harm to humans that's not simply anthropocentric "I want it so" rationalization?
Probably the same anthropocentric "I want it so" reason that keeps farming humans for food illegal.

I can understand the arguments against animal cruelty laws to a point. But somehow I doubt Mr. White wore that t-shirt as a statement against affording protected status to animals and the moral ramifications of such laws.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Well, I'm personally against dog-fighting.

I do have to say that some cows are kept in pretty horrible conditions. Some people even consider it to be torture. And your hamburger isn't a crime.

Not that I'm saying "go ahead, torture the dogs." Of course not. I just think it's kind of a gray territory, particularly if you eat meat. (Which I do - fish at least. And yes, I wrestle with the ethical issue of it.)

[Alex]

But can you really come up with no rational reason for crimilizing harm to animals? What is the difference between that and harm to humans that's not simply anthropocentric "I want it so" rationalization?

Yes, I can come up with some. But it takes work and, in my opinion, fudging. For me the primary bases on which criminalization emerge have to do with social contracts (implicit and explicit) and violations thereof. Animals do not participate in this contract themselves and I primarily view domesticated animals as property.

But I've worked abound it to some degree to get the result I want rather than necessarily the result that is more appropriate to my starting axioms. But I'm uncomfortable with that.

Yes, you'll be able to say that my fundamental axioms aren't anything other than a form of "I want it so" rationalization and you'd be correct. That is always true; there is no objective morality. I just generally try to resist violating those axioms just because another set of "I want it sos" are more appealing in fringe situations.

[Alex]

I can understand the arguments against animal cruelty laws to a point. But somehow I doubt Mr. White wore that t-shirt as a statement against affording protected status to animals and the moral ramifications of such laws.

Perhaps not, but it seems pretty clear that he doesn't think that what Vick did should put him in jail.

I'd see the stupidity of it if the shirt says "Vick's Innocent!" or "Vick Didn't Do It!" I'm not so much seeing the stupidity of saying "Vick shouldn't be in jail!"

[mousepod]

I agree with Alex, but still think it's a moronic statement to wear the shirt.

On the other hand, we were out in Los Feliz on Sunday and saw this shirt:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/ekay_1975_14076397

[Not Afraid]

http://images.cafepress.com/product/61313622v9_240x240_Front_Color-Black.jpg
Even better.

[Strangler Lewis]

"Because I think so" works for me. I think dog fighting is just too much naked violence and cruelty and indulging it can only foster cruelty against humans. I doubt you'll see anything along the lines of HBO hooker documentaries about what solid citizens the dog fighters otherwise are and how they're only doing it to support their families and, of course, for the glamor.

Not that I'd do away with all such things, but I like my violence and cruelty sublimated, preferably with helmets and shoulderpads. I'm also a longtime boxing fan, at least when the competitors behave honorably. That's why I can't stand MMA. The competitors and the fans all look and act like characters in a prison movie.

[wendybeth]

This is probably going to seem like a huge stretch, but to me the practice of dog fighting (that sounds so benign, when in reality it's so horrific) is not so very far removed from slavery. Those animals are bred and trained for one thing only- to provide entertainment and make their masters money. They lead a horrid life of deprivation and abuse. Just because they are animals doesn't give Vick and his ilk a pass. There was a time when slaves were considered less than human. Shame on him, and all his apologists. This whole subject is beyond disgusting.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I don't like c0ck fighting... vagina fighting is cool...

[SacTown Chronic]

Actually, it's the anti-gambling laws that Roddy White wants abolished. Roddy knows the feds wouldn't give two sh*ts about those dogs if gambling wasn't involved.



And it's funny that Roddy White, of all people, wants Mike Vick to be free. If I had a dollar for every time Vick's poor mechanics caused White to get crushed while jumping for yet another over-thrown pass, I'd have money to go to the vagina fights with Bornieo. White's career has really taken off with Vick behind bars. But as I said, he really hates those anti-gambling laws.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

So, what's this vagina thing you all keep talking about?

[Disneyphile]

I want a "Free Willy" shirt. Someone should still fight for that whale, even posthumously.

[SacTown Chronic]

I wear my "Free Willy" shirt to the vagina fights. It's always good for a few laughs and several dirty looks.

[Kevy Baby]

My Willy is free.

[Disneyphile]

I thought One-Eyed Willy buried his treasure in a cave.

[ozron]

I thought One-Eyed Willy buried his treasure in a cave.

Okay....

There are just WAY too many directions to go with this one....

:eek:

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I just heard a song called "Santa Got Stuck in my Chimny" by Ella Fitzgerald. wow. "That was the last time he came" she sings.

wow...

[Disneyphile]

I have that song! It came on my "Double Entendre Christmas Collection" album by Ronco, not sold in stores.

It was well worth the $99.99 on 25 full-length CDs. :D

[ozron]

Do you have "I've Got Some Presents for Santa" from Mark & Brian's Christmas CD?

[Kevy Baby]

Do you have "I've Got Some Presents for Santa" from Mark & Brian's Christmas CD?I do

[Gemini Cricket]

The thing that bugs me is that "high profile sports celebs" are writing letters in Vick's defense. And I'm saying, 'So what?' I bet anyone convicted of a crime could get some shmoe to write them a shining letter begging for clemency... I don't think these letters should sway anyone.

[3894]

Don't confuse me with the facts!