China Olympics

[Ghoulish Delight]

So the French have succeeded where others have failed. The last leg of the Olympic torch's relay through Paris has been canceled due to increasing protests and attempts to snuff it out.

I'm of the opinion that the Olympics should be boycotted. It would certainly suck for many athletes, however, if the Olympics are going to maintain their modern goal of promoting world unity and improved international behavior, then China needs to be sent a message. Some have argued that, because the average Chinese citizen is completely in the dark about what their government is doing, a boycott would simply look to them like a power grab by the US. But the reality is, the average Chinese citizen is going to be fed information from their government that we're evil no matter what we do, so I don't find that a compelling argument.

To my mind, China has failed to uphold their end of the bargain. They are not using the Olympics as a stage to become better world citizens and demonstrate their strides towards becoming a modern, humanitarian government as, for a counter example, Korea did in 1988. They instead have taken a blatant step backwards from where they were (or appeared to be) when they were awarded the games. I can't imagine a more clear case for a boycott.

[innerSpaceman]

It didn't work out so well for the Moscow Olympics. The only big losers were the atheletes.


I much prefer the idea of boycotting just the Opening Ceremonies. Message sent. Years of athletes' lives and hopes and sweat redeemed.

[Strangler Lewis]

I think an Olympic boycott would be meaningless. This Olympics will be a train wreck that should be embraced and widely covered. Watching marathoners keel over in the pollution will be a boon for environmentalism.

[Alex]

I think an Olympics boycott would be hypocritical as world politics now stand.

Make it part of a larger package of official disapproval and punishment and then I'd be more open to it.

If China is an evil that needs to be ostracized, start by telling Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola, Google, and Ford that they can't go to China. Telling a 14-year-old rhythmic gymnast that she can't go seems a silly place to start.

But if any athletes/coaches/etc. decide that they can't, in good conscience attend then they have my respect.

For now, Lani and I have stopped planning a 2009 China trip we had in the penciled in stages.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yes, I surely would prefer more direct and meaningful political sanctions against China, but looking at it independent of other decisions I just can't help but think it's wrong to lend them the credibility of the world stage.

Boycotting the opening ceremonies strikes me as a particularly empty gesture.

[innerSpaceman]

How is that less empty than boycotting the whole thing?

At least with the Opening Ceremony, which is likey watched by ALL television viewers of the Olymics and which is the main propaganda tool of the Chinese for the whole shibang, it will be noticed and widely mentioned that the U.S. (and hopefully other athletes) are boycotting to express their disapproval of the host nation. Wow, for a change, the live commentary can cease describing the live visuals for the blind TV watchers, and actually have someting to say of some substance.

Whereas with individual events, viewed by less people, there will be actual sporting events going on ... with little option or incentive to mention any boycott by atheletes of a particular nation.

[scaeagles]

I have gone back and forth on the issue, feeling strongly about boycotting and then feeling for the athletes that have trained for years to compete.

I was sickened when China was awarded them in the first place. I have even read that China has forced some athletes to sign agreements that they will not criticize the government or policies of China while at the Olympics as a condition to be allowed into the country.

The real problem was them being awarded to China. Right now I'm against a complete boycott, but in 10 minutes it might think completely differently.

[CoasterMatt]

Just put all the athletes in the red robes of Tibetan monks for the opening ceremonies....

[sleepyjeff]

I think an Olympic boycott would be meaningless. This Olympics will be a train wreck that should be embraced and widely covered. Watching marathoners keel over in the pollution will be a boon for environmentalism.


For once we are in complete agreement.

Speaking of enviromentalism......shouldn't we ask ourselves how an Olympic Boycott will affect future Climate Change treaties with China? Because lets face it....if CC is for real(don't get excited, I said "if") and if there is any chance we can stop it China will have to be a part of it. Embarrasing them with a Boycott certainly will not make them more sympathetic to Western Causes.

[Ghoulish Delight]

How is that less empty than boycotting the whole thing?
Because anything short of a full boycott means continuing to engage with their government, legitimizing it on the world stage. To me, it's not about who is watching or what a television audience thinks. It's about our government not engaging with a corrupt murderous government.

I will say that, like scaeagles, I have oscillated and it's only within the past couple of days that I've felt my position galvanize in favor of a full boycott. I do feel for the athletes, but I'd like to think that, were I to have any actual athletic talent and be in the position to be an Olympic athlete, that I'd recognize that sometimes making a statement serious wrongs should take precedent over my individual accomplishment.

Of course, when I've fallen on the opposite side of the argument, I've also realized that I might welcome the opportunity to individually make the decision to not participate, rather than have that decision forced on me, but I keep coming back to the reality that, since the Chinese government isn't exactly allowing the realities conversation to reach the ears of the average Chinese citizen, the only real actions of value can be made by political bodies such us Olympic committees and other US government representatives.

[Ghoulish Delight]

For once we are in complete agreement.

Speaking of enviromentalism......shouldn't we ask ourselves how an Olympic Boycott will affect future Climate Change treaties with China? Because lets face it....if CC is for real(don't get excited, I said "if") and if there is any chance we can stop it China will have to be a part of it. Embarrasing them with a Boycott certainly will not make them more sympathetic to Western Causes.
That's precisesly why I think a boycott is necessary. By playing nice just long enough to win the Olympic bid, and then blatantly sliding back into major human rights abuses on the eve of being under the world microscope, they're sending a pretty clear message that they have no desire to work with the international community. If we just let the Olympics go ahead, we're rewarding them for that two-faced behavior.

[Alex]

No, by giving them Most Favored Nation status, by allowing them unfettered access to our markets, but doing nothing to actually sanction that government we are rewarding them.

Boycotting the Olympics is just saying "I'm very disappointed in you, son, so I've blocked VH-1 on the TV" when the primary watching of VH-1 is by the well behaved daughter.

That's why I didn't label it at meaningless. It mostly would be: two weeks after the brouhaha begins it will become moot when the games end and things go back to the way they are right now. Instead I used the word hypocritical, because it is to essentially say "this is an issue important enough to impose some punishment but it is important that neither the United States government nor China are actually impacted so we'll punish the athletes." That'll learn everybody.

And I don't see how it fails to put China on the world stage unless the U.S. government has the ability to prevent NBC from broadcasting the games. It doesn't and NBC has too much money invested to not air them.

If China doesn't care about the PR leading up to the Olympics, it is hard to imagine that they'll care about the PR during the Olympics

[sleepyjeff]

That's precisesly why I think a boycott is necessary. By playing nice just long enough to win the Olympic bid, and then blatantly sliding back into major human rights abuses on the eve of being under the world microscope, they're sending a pretty clear message that they have no desire to work with the international community. If we just let the Olympics go ahead, we're rewarding them for that two-faced behavior.


Good point, but how will a boycott change their desire to work with the international community? Wouldn't that do just the opposite?

[JWBear]

We all know the Bush Administration was so deeply troubled by the human rights violations in Iraq that they invaded it. (That is still the current reason, isn't it? Goodness knows, it's hard to keep track when the reason changes so much.) Perhaps they should invade China as well. Another big win for Democracy! Oodles and oodles of more taxpayer money for his cronies' companies! Think of the legacy Bush will have.

And while we're at it, can we take our jobs and industry back?

[Morrigoon]

With the human rights violations our own government has been committing, any stand we take would be on weak ground. Sad, but true.

I think I like the idea of tributing the monks for the opening ceremonies though, because any obvious display done by such a large group, especially if the commentators are informed of it ahead of time, would definitely elicit comment. But our government would have to be in on it in order to allow them to alter the team uniform.

[Ghoulish Delight]

No, by giving them Most Favored Nation status, by allowing them unfettered access to our markets, but doing nothing to actually sanction that government we are rewarding them.

......

If China doesn't care about the PR leading up to the Olympics, it is hard to imagine that they'll care about the PR during the Olympics
Again, I don't disagree. And I do understand that it's a tough pill to swallow for an athlete to be asked to not participate due to a gesture that, admittedly, won't do a lick to change anything.

I guess what I really want is for a boycott of the Olympics to signal a sea change in our dealings with China. Use it as a very visible forum to say, "Okay, we gave you guys a lot of rope, you had the opportunity to shine with the world spotlight on you, you blew it. So now we're going to start actually taking steps to sanction you."

I suppose if that doesn't follow along behind it, I'd oscillate back onto the no boycott side. The symbolic boycott of the Olympics definitely needs to have some decidedly non-symbolic action moving forward. And maybe I'm hoping for too much. But to me, accepting the unchangeable fact that we've already missed decades' worth of opportunities to actually sanction China's actions, I see an Olympic boycott as an ideal opportunity to begin to fix that.

[Alex]

Like I said in my first post. If it is part of some larger package then I am much more open to it.

Since I haven't seen any mention of any real sanction against China, then yes, I do think you're hoping for too much. Engagement is the official diplomatic policy of our country when it comes to China and I don't see that changing (and I'm not entirely sure it should change; but without a wholesale change then just boycotting the Olympics strikes me as a truly empty gesture and perhaps more harm than good).

I'm not accusing you of this, but as always there is the kabuki dance of political opponents advocating whatever stance the other side isn't. Prior to the war, there was a large pro-engagement movement on the issue of Iraq (when war became the preferred option that morphed into a pro-sanctions movement). There is one for Cuba and North Korea. In China, where pro-business interests produce a strong pro-engagement movement the engagement people start to advocate sanctions. And I'm not criticizing one side over the other; if sanctions make sense for Cuba, then they make many times more sense for China.

I wholeheartedly support any athlete or team that decides the political issues far outweigh the athletic ones and so decline to participate. But since, I don't think there will be any larger package, asking a group of athletes to be the only symbols of our disapproval and the only ones put out by it, I am definitely anti-boycott.

So, I don't think we necessarily disagree. I just have no hope or expectation of anything larger happening unless China does something much worse than it already has.

[Strangler Lewis]

I would, however, support leaving the decision up to individual sports. I would certainly support, indeed, encourage, a boycott by the world's rhythmic gymnasts. Also a boycott by the competitors in badminton, baseball, basketball, soccer, handball, ping pong, tennis and beach volleyball.

[Kevy Baby]

Just put all the athletes in the red robes of Tibetan monks for the opening ceremonies....A voice or reason!

So the French have succeeded where others have failed. The last leg of the Olympic torch's relay through Paris has been canceled due to increasing protests and attempts to snuff it out.So, the French surrendered? I see some things never change.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ibaseball, You'll get your wish on that one come 2012.

[Gemini Cricket]

I think our country should make some sort of statement about China whether it's Bush boycotting the opening ceremony or the US withdrawing from the event totally.

[Sub la Goon]

Nuke the Olympics.

That's a statement.

[€uroMeinke]

I don't know, we went to the 1936 Games, that would seem to give all others a pass - is there a Goodwins Law on this?

I'm an Olympic idealist in that I think the games should go on and not be politicized, even if that's all what they're for now. Boycott Chinese products would be something everyone could do (until they realized what they'd be giving up).

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I think the athletes should get the opportunity to shine in thier sports. It blows that it happens to take place in China and since I"m not really interested in the Olympics I don't know what else I can do beyond continue voicing opinions against China and boycotting thier products. (and I like Chinese food damit!) I would, though, admire an athlete, company or country that refuses to take part or boycott China during the event. I think if I were a "fan" I would refuse to watch the event and encourage others to do the same.

IMHO.

[Not Afraid]

I hate the idea of using young athletes - who only get a chance to shine like this once every 4 years - to prove a political point. It think it would be very unsportsmanlike to boycott the Olympics. But, I'm an idealist when it comes to the games.

[Sub la Goon]

I agree with NA ^^

If you want to send a message to China, don't punish our athletes.

Boycott Wal-Mart!

[Not Afraid]

Boycott Wal-Mart!

I've got that one in the bag.

[Gemini Cricket]

Boycott Wal*Mart? Then where will one go then for full-screen airline versions of films?
:D

[€uroMeinke]

China?

[BarTopDancer]

I think the "Made in the USA" campaign needs to be given new life.

I'm completely conflicted on the Olympics. On one hand, it's ridiculous that China was awarded them to begin with. On the other hand, it doesn't seem right to punish the athletes who worked so hard to get there.

The Chinese people are not going to know the real reason we boycott. It would need to be a boycott on a larger level. Sadly, with our current global reputation, I don't think we can muster up support for a larger boycott.

[scaeagles]

Really? I think freedom loving countries would see it as something worthy of following and perhaps would help us redeem our reputation (a concept which I find ridiculous anyway. because what is right is not always popular).

[BarTopDancer]

Really? I think freedom loving countries would see it as something worthy of following and perhaps would help us redeem our reputation (a concept which I find ridiculous anyway. because what is right is not always popular).

In theory, I agree with you. But the USA isn't in the good graces of many of those freedom loving countries these days. What's right isn't always what's popular. But we'll have to agree to disagree (which I think we already do) that what put the USA on so many countries sh*t list is right or wrong.

[JWBear]

I still say we bomb the hell out of them in the name of peace.

[Stan4dSteph]

I'm watching the coverage of the torch relay in SF and it's sadly hilarious. The Chinese are trying very hard to exert the sort of control they are used to in their own country, and are failing miserably.

"Where's the torch? Is it in the warehouse? In the van? On the train? In a plane?"

They're playing hide the torch in SF. Wink wink.

[Alex]

Isn't the world of modern communications grand? Steph is watching it live from 10,000 miles away and I'm 3 miles away and haven't a clue what is going on with it.

[Stan4dSteph]

Isn't the world of modern communications grand? Steph is watching it live from 10,000 miles away and I'm 3 miles away and haven't a clue what is going on with it.Hehe. That's awesome.

[Not Afraid]

I'm watching the coverage of the torch relay in SF and it's sadly hilarious. The Chinese are trying very hard to exert the sort of control they are used to in their own country, and are failing miserably.

"Where's the torch? Is it in the warehouse? In the van? On the train? In a plane?"

They're playing hide the torch in SF. Wink wink.

I also found this whole series of events quite amusing. They're playing keep away with the torch.

[Snowflake]

And they did a very good job of it, too. Of course, seeing the ring of motorcycle cops and the inner ring of cops with billy clubs out (not to mention the motorcades) I'm shocked any people were let in the city limits.

When I drove by the Chinese Embassy on the way home today, the street parking was nixed, a lone NBC news van across Geary by the hotel and not a soul to be seen protesting. Usually there is someone chained to one of the Chinese Lions, on any given day.

Me, I'm boycotting the Olympics because NBC will be covering it again. Call me sentimental, but I still miss ABC Wide World of Sports and Jim McKay.

[Kevy Baby]

Call me sentimental, but I still miss ABC Wide World of Sports and Jim McKay.And Vinko Bogataj

[innerSpaceman]

I love that the torch ceremony has been moved to an "undisclosed location."


Um, remind me again which country is the totalitarian regime?

[scaeagles]

Well, I suppose we could arrest anyone who, based on online surveillance, has even suggested about protesting....or arrest anyone who is protesting and sentence them to years of prison for crimes against the state.....I could go on, but why? I sure hope you said that tongue in cheek.

[Strangler Lewis]

I also found this whole series of events quite amusing. They're playing keep away with the torch.

My impression of the day's events. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spz8_rpE0e0)

[Snowflake]

And Vinko Bogataj

Only during the Winter Olympics!

[innerSpaceman]

No, I didn't say that tongue in cheek. To say we're not as bad as China is like saying we're not as bad as Nazi Germany (there, I godwined ... deal).

I'm sick and tired of our right to peaceful protest being made meaningless by the police state. First protestors are blocked from being within miles of the political or financial events they want to object to, and now the events themselves are being moved away from the protestors.

Add up all the other civil liberties lost in the last 8 years and you have, mr. scaeagles, a situation not at all unlike Germany at a quarter to third reich, eastern bloc time.

[Alex]

While I deplore free speech zones and all of that. I'm not really seeing where any civil liberties were abridged today. The right to protest is not a right to have the object of your protest be where you expect it to be.

[innerSpaceman]

I didn't say they were the same thing. I'm implying they are symptomatic of the same thing.


Facism. In teeny, weeny, baby steps.


Sure, maybe night. Probably even probably not. But this is the road, alright.

[Alex]

Afraid I don't see it on this one (though I'll spot you dozens of other tiny steps), but we don't have to agree.

[innerSpaceman]

Though nothing unconstitutional or illegal, per se, I find the Free Speech Zones to be completely chilling in a 1984/Animal Farm fashion. Traveling Free Speech Zones and Public Events at Undisclosed Locations seems to take this concept one step creepily further. Me hates it.


And I find it an unpleasantly ironic thing to do with protests against China.

[innerSpaceman]

Not that any mob is a good mob ... but a Chinese American holding both a Chinese and Tibetan flag and talking about how it was possible to be supportive of both was roughed up and intimidated by a bunch of pro-China demonstrators at yesterday's San Francisco stuff.


Yeah, way to make China look even better. What nimrods.

[sleepyjeff]

Though nothing unconstitutional or illegal, per se, I find the Free Speech Zones to be completely chilling in a 1984/Animal Farm fashion. Traveling Free Speech Zones and Public Events at Undisclosed Locations seems to take this concept one step creepily further. Me hates it.






http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0408/borowitz041108.php3


In order to keep the new location a secret, Wu revealed that China had not even disclosed it to NBC, who has a contract to televise the 2008 summer games.


This decision drew an outraged response from NBC chairman Jeff Zucker, who told reporters in New York, "If NBC doesn't know where the Olympics are, no one will watch them."


Wu took exception to Mr. Zucker's comment about no one watching the Olympics, responding, "That sounds like a typical NBC show to me."





On the campaign trail, Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) blasted China's human rights record, telling an audience in Pittsburgh, "I have always fought for human rights in China, which is why I risked my life in Tiananmen Square."

Read the whole tounge in cheek article at the link above:)

[Morrigoon]

I wish someone could go log the number of hours of coverage the protests and objections to the games have been getting and compare across stations. I wouldn't be surprised if NBC had the lion's share of coverage. It would make the games that much more watchable, wouldn't it?

[PanTheMan]

I was sickened when China was awarded them in the first place. I have even read that China has forced some athletes to sign agreements that they will not criticize the government or policies of China while at the Olympics as a condition to be allowed into the country.

The fault lies with the Olympic Organizing comittee for giving the games to China, i agree. And yes, Athletes who criticize China while there or make political gestures will be told to leave the country.

Another thing that sickens me is from a few months back when Congrss passed a resolution sayng that no one from the U.S. Government should in anyway represent the USA in any official capacity as a protest to China's human rights record. THEN later that day Bush deliberatley makes his announcement he will be going to the games and praised China. ( Doing it the same day, just in spite of congress) What a scum sucking Pig.