Man Commits Suicide at DLH

[Disneyphile]

Just found this story on MousePad:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-disneyland2-2008may02,0,1715506.story
:(

And, a parking tram has also crashed (edit: apparently only into a sign)

http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?t=100956

[Moonliner]

No sir, I'm sorry but the pixie dust in the rooms does not actually enable you to fly.


Sir?


Sir?!?

[Ghoulish Delight]

You know the mood of the nation's bad when the happiest place on earth sees suicide. :(

It's sad that anyone has to feel that they've got no other options.

[Disneyphile]

You know the mood of the nation's bad when the happiest place on earth sees suicide. :(

It's sad that anyone has to feel that they've got no other options.No kidding, and nothing more selfish either. I really feel for his family and the people who had to witness it, especially any kids.

[Morrigoon]

Well, so much for any hope that the new towers will have sliding glass doors you can open.

[Alex]

Frankly, I'm amazed it doesn't happen more often.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

There are more private ways to commit suicide, but not more polite. Someone is going to have to find the body, be it a shocked stranger or family member, etc. I don't think someone jumping out of a hotel window at Disneyland is all that more shocking than doing the same someplace else, despite the irony. People can feel miserable anywhere, even (or maybe more so) at the "happiest place on earth."

I don't know. Yes, it's a selfish act. Yes, it's sad the person saw no other option, and in some cases medication would have helped. Family and friends of suicides are dealt a terrible blow. And it's awful that some people commit suicide publicly. But, I also believe a person has a right to stay in this life or exit it at their leisure. Living isn't for everyone.

[scaeagles]

But, I also believe a person has a right to stay in this life or exit it at their leisure. Living isn't for everyone.

I have been so wishy washy on this this topic I have no idea really even how to organize all of the varied thoughts I've had on it over the decades.

There have been three times in my life I've had serious thoughts of suicide. I believe everyone has passing thoughts once in a while, but I did dwell on it for a long period of time. When I considered it, all three times would have been acts of selfishness.

Because of my own personal experiences with those thoughts, in which the situations varied widely, I am typically one who considers all suicide an act of selfishness. While the life does indeed belong to the person living it, the ramifications go far beyond the one life taken.

Then I think of the terminally ill, which included my mom, who died when I was 15 of Lupus, and I have to say that often times suicide in those cases would be considered unselfish. Good lord knows I went for years wishing it would just be over both for her and for the family.

This is one of those issues that I've never really been able to formulate a strong opinion on.

[Gemini Cricket]

Really sad.
I keep thinking about the person(s) who found his body.
If my kid had happened upon the body with me, I think I would take the Life is Beautiful cue and try not to hit the child with the stark reality of what it actually was. It would be so freaking hard, but I would tell the kid (you know, if he was young enough to buy it) that someone was sleeping or had just passed out or something, make a joke maybe... I can't imagine tramatizing the kid by freaking out.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I have been so wishy washy on this this topic I have no idea really even how to organize all of the varied thoughts I've had on it over the decades.

There have been three times in my life I've had serious thoughts of suicide. I believe everyone has passing thoughts once in a while, but I did dwell on it for a long period of time. When I considered it, all three times would have been acts of selfishness.

Because of my own personal experiences with those thoughts, in which the situations varied widely, I am typically one who considers all suicide an act of selfishness. While the life does indeed belong to the person living it, the ramifications go far beyond the one life taken.

Then I think of the terminally ill, which included my mom, who died when I was 15 of Lupus, and I have to say that often times suicide in those cases would be considered unselfish. Good lord knows I went for years wishing it would just be over both for her and for the family.

This is one of those issues that I've never really been able to formulate a strong opinion on.

Very well stated, scaeagles. I do think it is a very personal topic. Suicide is, in most cases, a very selfish thing to do, but I'm also not sure a person should have to suffer a life he doesn't want for whatever reason. You had the presence of mind to measure your unhappiness against the consequences, and you chose life. That's a very brave and kind thing to have done, and obviously it's not a choice everyone is capable of making in the thick of depression.

I'm not a suicidal person, in that I've never been miserable enough to consider it as the best possible option. And if someone I loved was considering suicide, I'd certainly want to help him or her to see an alternative if I knew what was going on, because things do have a way of getting better. I also assume for many medication would help, if only they sought the help. At the end of the day, though, I stand by my belief that a person has a right to choose for herself life or death. Selfish, yes. Criminal, no. Sad, regardless.

[innerSpaceman]

I can't really think of suicide as a selfish act. I'm kinda thinkin' someone who's really doing that has a few more pressing concerns than the effect of their actions on other people.


Yes, I agree the effect of one's actions on other people is very, very, very important. But the end of your own existence kinda trumps that in significance.


The priority of "manners" might be a little skewed in someone who's so distraught they're going to end their own life, huh?

[Prudence]

So it's selfish to commit suicide because of the effect it might have on others, but it's not selfish to require someone to stay alive against their will?

[Moonliner]

So I sorta missed the pulse of the board on this one.

I guess it's easy to be cavalier from 3,000 miles away. I can certainly see where you all feel closer to this event. My apologies if I offended anyone with my earlier post.

[Alex]

I want to point it out that I am not the one who right turned the thread to issues of morality, right vs. wrong, etc.


But I agree with EH1812 for the most part. However, if I am going to grant that suicide can be a rational choice then I have no issue with saying one should take certain other rational considerations into account, such as trying to minimize the impact of the act on others.

[Disneyphile]

Ok, how can I say this -

If someone is knowingly very ill (be it mentally or physically), and the family knows this as well, then I don't really see it as selfish, because their loved ones are considered in the decision.

However, I do see it as selfish when someone doesn't consider their loved ones at all, leaving those loved ones to blame themselves for the rest of their lives, and aren't discreet or at least private about it.

Does that make sense now?

I know surviving loved ones in both scenarios.

[alphabassettgrrl]

My only experience of suicide is of considering it as a teen but realizing what I really wanted was attention.

Then in 1995 my dad ended his life. No warning, out of the blue. I wish he'd said something, got some help. But he didn't, couldn't, wouldn't; something. It's sad.

That's different from someone who's got a terminal disease. I could see it if I had Alzheimer's or something.

I feel bad for anyone who is hurting enough to want to kill themselves. I wish they could get help so they don't have to feel that anymore. Selfish? Maybe. Not really their consideration at that point though. Immoral? Hard to say.

[CoasterMatt]

I have seen suicide from a different angle - I was a peer counselor in high school, and worked a suicide prevention hotline through most of college.

I don't know anymore if it's a selfish act. Is it anymore selfish than the grieving loved ones left behind, who often times say "How could you do this to ME?" I do know, it's important for people to take care of each other, before they feel that they have no other course.

There's always somebody out there to listen, just keep talking.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

So it's selfish to commit suicide because of the effect it might have on others, but it's not selfish to require someone to stay alive against their will?

I would say "want someone to stay alive" rather than require (though I suppose the law "requires"?), but I think they're both selfish to a certain degree. I just don't think all selfish acts are bad.

[€uroMeinke]

What's wrong with being selfish?

[innerSpaceman]

All hedonism considered, I don't think self-interest is a bad thing. But the word "selfishness," I believe, tends to imply self-interest that purposefully hurts others in the process. I don't know where the moral ground is on that, but i find hedonists and others swankier if that hurtful brand of selfishness brings them no pleasure. And so selfishness would be to avoid selfishness, if you get my drift.



* * *

ETA: i love discussing the moral implications of suicide ... then scrolling down to change forums, and seeing we're currently in "Disneyland and All Things Disney"

:)

[Isaac]

Disneyland and all things Disney (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
The first stop for swank hedonism


That says it all :)

[scaeagles]

But the word "selfishness," I believe, tends to imply self-interest that purposefully hurts others in the process.

Quite thought provoking, actually.

Perhaps, then, suicide involves self absorption rather than selfishness. (ona side note, I had to edit for spelling....who would have thought that absorb becomes absorption???? Learn something new every day.)

[Moonliner]

Quite thought provoking, actually.

Perhaps, then, suicide involves self absorption rather than selfishness. (ona side note, I had to edit for spelling....who would have thought that absorb becomes absorption???? Learn something new every day.)

I think "Selfishness" is an external judgement others place upon your actions. Your internal motivations be they self absorption, thoughtlessness or even well meaning are largely irrelevant to a judgement of "Selfishness" by others.

[€uroMeinke]

is it selfish then or malicious (hurtful to others)?

[BarTopDancer]

It's very sad that this man felt he had no other options.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Free will: "I can do anything I want to do."

In the end, aren't all acts selfish at the core? Every decision we make is the synthesis of all of our competing needs and wants, resulting in performing the action that carries the most self satisfaction, or the least self dissatisfaction. Even an outwardly "selfless" act requires the actor to WANT to perform it.

I don't agree that selfishness necessarily is a purposeful hurtful act towards someone else. It can simply by a complete lack of account for others. I think we've all had moments where we're distracted by our own problems that we temporarily forget to consider others, I don't find it too hard to imagine that getting to the point where your thoughts are so clouded and distracted that nothing else makes it through.

In the end, I'm skeptical that all suicides can be boiled down to a single word like "selfish" or "malicious" or "cowardly". The only thing I know they have in common that doesn't require being in the person's head is "sad".

[scaeagles]

Free will: "I can do anything I want to do."

In the end, aren't all acts selfish at the core? Every decision we make is the synthesis of all of our competing needs and wants, resulting in performing the action that carries the most self satisfaction, or the least self dissatisfaction. Even an outwardly "selfless" act requires the actor to WANT to perform it.

I disagree. I do so many things I don't want to because they are the right thing to do or they are beneficial to someone else. I have no desire to throw wiffle balls so my son can practice batting EVERY STINKING DAY FOR THE LAST 3 WEEKS. But I do.

However, I will admit that often times doing things I don't want to do are a direct result of things I do want to do. For example, I don't want to go to work, but I do want to feed my family.

[Disneyphile]

I think there are two types of selfishness - that which intentionally hurts others and that which doesn't. I completely think the latter is fine.

And note I say "intentionally" in this case. To me, a person committing suicide knows damn well it will negatively affect others. Even if the person is a total jerk whose demise might be celebrated, but it still affects the people who have to clean up or witness the mess. I think that's a "bad" selfish.

In the case of say, showing up early for a good parade spot, which then blocks the view of people who choose to arrive later, is a perfectly "fine" selfish act in my book. However, vice versa - being shoved out of the way by latecomers is "bad" selfish on their part because they know the other people have been obviously waiting a longer time for that spot.

Does that make sense?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I disagree. I do so many things I don't want to because they are the right thing to do or they are beneficial to someone else. I have no desire to throw wiffle balls so my son can practice batting EVERY STINKING DAY FOR THE LAST 3 WEEKS. But I do.
But you have the free will not to. You choose to because, balancing everything out, your want for your son to have fun and love you outweighs your want to not toss the ball. In the end, the balance of the equation has you doing what you want to. You always have the choice not to, it's just a question of what price you're willing to pay not to. Which is just another want.


However, I will admit that often times doing things I don't want to do are a direct result of things I do want to do. For example, I don't want to go to work, but I do want to feed my family.
Exactly my point.

[tracilicious]

I've heard depression described before as "a cult of one," and I find that very appropriate. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone that commits suicide is so deep into depression that they consider their death a good thing for all involved. I've heard people say who have been in that spot before that they felt that their mere presence was toxic.

[innerSpaceman]

Yes, we all do what we want to self-satisfy. Even our most Mother-Teresa-like "selfless" acts are done primarily from the motivation to satisfy ourselves with ... pride, empathy, warmheartedness or any other good feelings associated with good acts.

It's precisely this kind of selfishness that I don't think the word selfishness or the term self-centered is meant to imply. Sure, all acts are self-motivated.

It's when that gets out of balance, just as when anything does, that the "bad" judgment of "selfishness" gets applied, and perhaps rightly so.


Most things are fine in moderation. Pride may be one of the seven deadly sins if it's out of balance, and a fine human attribute if it's within a certain range. That's one example out of far more than seven.


Does suicide get out of the acceptable range of self-interest? Impossible to say, I think. Case-by-case basis, likely. But I continue to grant the benefit of the doubt that far greater things are tragically out of balance to expect anyone's sense of self-motivation/selfishness range to be within society's acceptable limits when they are in the state of mind to end their own existence.

[Chernabog]

I've heard depression described before as "a cult of one," and I find that very appropriate. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone that commits suicide is so deep into depression that they consider their death a good thing for all involved. I've heard people say who have been in that spot before that they felt that their mere presence was toxic.

This, I agree with. While suicide is ultimately a selfish act, those who are doing it out of depression or a feeling that there's no way out (as opposed to, say, to get attention or to "get back" at someone) is probably thinking suicide IS for the best -- for themselves and for everyone around them. There's a chemical f**kup that tells them that their temporary condition/mental state/circumstances are permanent, and that there's no way out. And that they're a burden and embarrassment to others, so they're actually helping others. Of course that isn't rational thinking, but someone who has that kind of an imbalance isn't thinking rationally or in a particular sane manner anyway.

[Not Afraid]

I don't find anything wrong with being selfish. No one else is going to make the decisions you want for you, so you may as well do it yourself. It's your life.

My father committed suicide. He was suffering from the effects of a disease that rendered almost completely without ay muscle control. There was no getting better and, by the time they figured out what disease he was suffering from and were able to but a hold on the deterioration, he was very damaged. He decided he didn't want to live in this way nor did he want to inflict this type of suffering (and the care he would require) on the rest of us.

While it was an awful thing to go through - having your father or spouse die is never easy - I ended up respecting his decision. It would've bee selfish of me to make him live in his deteriorated state just so
I could have him around. And, in this case, his selfishness trumped my own selfishness.

I don't know the details and reasons why the man chose to jump off the DLH, so I can't make any judgements about his reasoning. I do think he could've done the act a bit more "quietly" and I feel deeply for the person or persons who witnessed the act for found the body.

Personally, I would not be opposed to making a decision for suicide for myself if I became so ill that it was a complete burden to live. I believe life should be a joy to experience and when the capacity for joy is gone life is no long worth the effort. What's difficult is know what the capacity for joy has gone.

[Isaac]

No sir, I'm sorry but the pixie dust in the rooms does not actually enable you to fly.


Sir?


Sir?!?


You can die
You can die
You can diiiiiiiie

[splat]

[scaeagles]

Yes, we all do what we want to self-satisfy. Even our most Mother-Teresa-like "selfless" acts are done primarily from the motivation to satisfy ourselves with ... pride, empathy, warmheartedness or any other good feelings associated with good acts.

I'm afraid this is something I can't subscribe to. I do believe that selfless acts are possible and I believe I may have partaken in some myself throughout my existance. I really don't believe that selfless acts (of course, some are) are done from the standpoint of the primary motivation being self serving.

[Nephythys]

I find it most interesting to see what the opinons are of those whose lives have been touched by suicide and those that have not.

[Alex]

Are you assuming that because I didn't share personal experiences with suicide that this means I haven't had any?

[Nephythys]

Alex I can honestly say you did not even cross my mind when I posted my comment.

[Alex]

Ok, let me ask more generally. Since I don't think I've seen anybody say "I've never had personal experience with suicide but my opinion is..." how are you determining who hasn't had such experience?

[Nephythys]

I'm not.

[Alex]

Ok, then I apparently misunderstood your post. C'est la vie (or mort).

[Kevy Baby]

I'm not.Um, yes you are:

I find it most interesting to see what the opinions are of those whose lives have been touched by suicide and those that have not.

[Nephythys]

Um, yes you are:

Um, no I am not.

I did not say I knew who had experience and who did not- I made no assumptions, no judgements on who had what experience.

I was just commenting that it is interesting to me the difference (in general- not just with the LoT group)- because experience can certainly change your view.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I've had personal experience with a family member committing suicide - my uncle, in 1985. He was my favorite uncle and it was very formative in my development.

I'm still saddened, baffled, angry about his death. Sometimes one more than another. He was an alcoholic (though we didn't know this) and had some trouble with his school board (he was one of those 'inspirational' teachers they write movies about) and his death, by self-inflicted gunshot, came as a complete shock to all of us. But then, my father's side of the family was taught never to discuss their feelings.

As a result, I find that my patience with alcohol abuse and people who do not seek help for (or communicate about) depression is limited (though my compassion is not.) Also as a result, my nuclear family began to seek counseling, and to discuss how we were actually feeling instead of pretending happiness or stiffupperlippery - and I believe that this has really improved our lives. I feel very sad for people who feel that they have no choice.

On the other hand, watching a parent's health deteriorate into consistent misery over twelve years is very difficult. If my mother was making a different choice than she currently is, I would not feel the sort of anger that I felt toward my uncle. Sadness, sure - but I would understand.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I have yet to post here, although some of you may remember that a couple of years ago, my roommate took his own life.

I still vividly remember all of it as if it were yesterday, all the anger, all the sadness, all the questions that would never be answered. And yet, looking back on it, selfishness doesn't quite seem the right word. Helplessness seems more accurate.

Granted, I honestly don't know what he was thinking and won't profess to. What I do know is that he had a 9-year-old daughter that he absolutely adored. That much I know for certain. And I honestly believe that his feeling that nothing was ever going to get better was so strong that it even outweighed his knowing that his death would devastate her. I often wonder if he truly thought that his absence would be less hard on her than if he stuck around. His life was spiraling downward quickly and I think he was just completely overwhelmed by the circumstances.

And I suppose that my point is, it's very easy to feel anger towards people that end their own life. Not so easy to recognize that, in most cases, their mind's chemistry has led them to believe that this is the only solution. And to subscribe that to selfishness only really works if they are, in fact, in their right mind to begin with - which most of them aren't. It is asking someone who has lost the capability for rational thought to act rationally, and that often isn't possible.

In my particular case, the anger eventually faded away, only to be replaced by profound sadness. He was a good person, a loving father, a friend to many. He just lost his ability to recognize that in himself. He lost the ability to seek out rational solutions. He lost the ability see things as they really were. And I just can't hold any anger towards someone because they lose their ability to cope.

[Not Afraid]

While instant death is an "instant solution" for some, others choose the slow death way of killing themselves through drugs, alcohol, obesity, anorexia and other bodily abuses. The big difference between these suicide attempts and the man jumping off the DLH is that there is a solution and a path to recovery while one is still alive - if it hasn't gone too far and the damage isn't too great.

[Strangler Lewis]

The quick solution is seldom the best or moral solution. If you have responsibilities and personal ties, suicide is just another form of running out on them, so it is selfish in the bad way. However, I think suicide in the "rational" sense only happens in overly philosophical plays and novels. One has to be awfully pained, or awfully confused, to think seriously that there's no better solution.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

It is interesting that, when someone is suffering from enormous physical pain, such as from a terminal illness like cancer, suicide is often seen as a justifiable route. And yet, if that enormous pain is mental, rather than physical, their inability to cope is often viewed as weakness, selfish ... the easy way out.

I think that sometimes we forget that such mental anguish is often no easier to live with in the overwhelming pain-sense, but because it is less (for lack of a better word) tangible, there is often a more "suck it up and deal with it" attitude from outside observers.

The difference, of course, is that in many cases, there are resources, medication, etc. that might be able to truly help the mental sufferer. And we can't understand why they don't take better advantage of those resources. And yet, from my experience in dealing with a person who was severely depressed, telling them that there is help available is something that they perceive as absolutely inconceivable. It is quite possible to get to the point to where you think your problems are so severe that you are completely beyond being helped.

Making matters worse is that, quite often when someone tries to tell us that they are severely depressed, the only thing we can think of saying is "things will get better." But to a sufferer of extreme depression, those words of hope are absurdly simplistic.

[innerSpaceman]

I've never had to, but what I would do in such a case (assuming the person is, say, older than 30) would be to guide them through the events and phases of their lives to point out that EVERYTHING changes ... in the hopes they grok that, even though it seems their misery cannot change, it will nonetheless whether they like it or not.


This has helped me thru "suicidally-contemplative" (though not suicidal) times when it really seemed to me that the future was unwaiveringly bleak.



AND public mojo to MBC for his views on this subject. We do not give the same consideration to the mentally afflicted as we do the physically, and there 's no way we can expect rational behavior from someone in the irrational state of suicidal.

[Nephythys]

My current question is- is the tendency to consider or commit suicide potentially genetic?

My son attempted suicide- his father lost a brother to suicide and now a second brother is considering it due to his divorce.

[Not Afraid]

It is interesting that, when someone is suffering from enormous physical pain, such as from a terminal illness like cancer, suicide is often seen as a justifiable route. And yet, if that enormous pain is mental, rather than physical, their inability to cope is often viewed as weakness, selfish ... the easy way out.

Personally, I see no difference between mental illness and cancer other then the part of the body they effect. If you have diabetes, you treat your insulin levels, if you have depression you treat serotonin levels (simplified, but you get my point). Why is the brain and it's complex chemical workings any different than those of the liver, kidneys, blood, etc?

[Gemini Cricket]

Someone asked me once if I ever considered suicide. And I thought about it and said, "Why should I be the one who goes?"

:D

[I swoop my black cape and twirl my handlebar moustache.]

[Alex]

I think about suicide all the time. I find it odd when people say they don't (not that I don't believe them, it is just such a common train of thought for me -- without ever coming close to being acted on -- that it is hard to imagine that others don't do it as well).

Nephytys: There is some evidence of genetic commonalities in populations with a family history of suicide. But I don't know if that is a direct genetic impulse to suicide or just a genetic inclination towards syndromes (such as bipolar disease or manic depression) that make the act more likely.

And of course, there is the complication of separating out genetic influences from social influences (if someone close commits suicide it might make the option seem more palatable, particularly if they saw the outpouring of grief and attention that resulted).

[BarTopDancer]

My current question is- is the tendency to consider or commit suicide potentially genetic?

My son attempted suicide- his father lost a brother to suicide and now a second brother is considering it due to his divorce.

I think the genetic trait lies with depression. With depression can come suicidal thoughts that can turn in to actions.

I also think suicide due to depression falls under a different category than self euthanasia.

[Kevy Baby]

It is interesting that, when someone is suffering from enormous physical pain, such as from a terminal illness like cancer, suicide is often seen as a justifiable route. And yet, if that enormous pain is mental, rather than physical, their inability to cope is often viewed as weakness, selfish ... the easy way out.There is a huge difference: mental/emotional pain is not terminal. At worst, one can be lobotomized, but the majority of mental and emotional afflictions can be dealt with through drugs and/or therapy.

As one who will probably be on medication for the rest of my life for depression, I do not see a parallel between a painful terminal illness and spirit killing emotional pain.

[Kevy Baby]

I think the genetic trait lies with depression.Historically, I believe the psychiatric community says that there is no genetic pre-disposition to depression. But having examined four generations of my maternal side of the family, I say bullshyt. But that's just me.



ETA: I guess things have changed: according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression#Genetic_predisposition), the National Institute for Mental Health says "there is some evidence that depression may run in families. Most experts believe that both biological and psychological factors play a role."

[Morrigoon]

Pffft. No kidding.

[innerSpaceman]

If you have diabetes, you treat your insulin levels, if you have depression you treat serotonin levels (simplified, but you get my point). Why is the brain and it's complex chemical workings any different than those of the liver, kidneys, blood, etc?
Because, as MBC pointed out, mental afflications can affect your mental ability to seek treatment. Physical afflications that have no mental component do not. Rarely do serious physical afflications have zero mental component, however ... so those, too, can affect the ability to seek treatment.

Not nearly so much, I would suggest, as a mental afflication as serious as imminently suicidal.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I find it most likely that depression can run in families. My friend is on antidepressants, as are both her siblings. Her mother should be but isn't. Something's up.

The other thing is that family patterns replicate themselves just as much as DNA. If those patterns create a suicidal ideation once, it can create it again.

Some of our societal freak-out I think is because we can't deal with death. We can't talk about it, we can't think about it, and gods bless it, we can't face it head-on. I wish we could talk with terminal patients, and those who choose their exit date ought to be accepted. I wish we could talk about pain. I wish my dad could have talked about whatever drove him to suicide (we have no clue why or what happened).

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Personally, I see no difference between mental illness and cancer other then the part of the body they effect. If you have diabetes, you treat your insulin levels, if you have depression you treat serotonin levels (simplified, but you get my point). Why is the brain and it's complex chemical workings any different than those of the liver, kidneys, blood, etc?

Well, ISM pretty much said what I would have, but since this was addressed to me ...

Treating those insulin levels is a rational response to the problem. Treating serotonin levels (simplified is fine :) ) is also a rational response. Unfortunately, you are asking someone who has, in many cases, lost the ability for rational thought, to seek out, and stick to, this treatment. And that just doesn't always work.

We found out later that my roommate, unknown to everyone else, had been taking anti-depressants for the past year. He stopped, without telling anyone, when he was laid off and was no longer able to afford them. When the choice was between rent and medication, he chose rent. It wasn't a good choice to make and a month later, he wasn't able to pay rent either. At that point, he was looking at not having a place to live and his need for medication had taken the backburner. Were there other options available to him? Most likely. Was he able to think clearly enough to seek out this help. Apparently not. And since he didn't know us all that well, he apparently didn't feel comfortable enough to cry out for help.

The last day I saw him, he was in the best mood I had seen him in for quite some time. Looking back, I think he had finally found something to be happy about, which was putting an end to his suffering. And I think he found the only solution that he thought might actually work.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

There is a huge difference: mental/emotional pain is not terminal. At worst, one can be lobotomized, but the majority of mental and emotional afflictions can be dealt with through drugs and/or therapy.

As one who will probably be on medication for the rest of my life for depression, I do not see a parallel between a painful terminal illness and spirit killing emotional pain.


With all due respect, the treatment worked for you because you had enough rationality, or at least enough of a support system to convince you of what course you needed to take. Many people who are severely depressed cannot conceive of the idea that it is "all in their head." To them, it is the world that is being merciless; they are the same person that they have always been. The idea that a pill could make a cruel world easier to deal with is a completely foreign concept that they are often unwilling or unable to grasp.

I am obviously very happy to hear that you had the ability to seek out treatment and even more happy to hear that it has worked for you. Were mental illness better understood by people in general, those that are tackling severe depression might have a better chance at weathering the storm, so to speak. You are one of the lucky ones. Many are not - and, I can't help but feel that often it is a result of their support system not truly understanding what depression is or how it can affect someone.

I alluded above to having some experience with someone who was severely depressed. I wasn't talking about my roommate, but rather my mom. At first, my father and I thought that we could simply "talk her out of it" and we gave as many pep talks as we could muster. It wasn't until we actually learned more about the disease through books and such that we started to really grasp the situation. And once we were able to get her to a hospital (completely against her will) they found a major potassium deficiency, based in part by the effects of terminal cancer and a failed liver that were previously undiagnosed. She still only had very little time left in this world, but within a day of treatment, her mental capacity had returned to the point that she was an entirely different person, her old self. And with that treatment, she was finally able to think clearly again and face the fact that she was very sick. When I saw how something as simple as a lack of potassium could completely unravel a person mentally, I started to understand better that brain chemistry can affect a person much more than I ever truly realized.

Due to her severe depression and diminished mental capabilities, she had been hiding from us how sick she really was. Now, she was willing to face it and start treatment. Unfortunately, she was too far along for anyone to be helped by that point. But, at least for those few remaining weeks, her family was once again able to have a rational conversation with her. And I'm very grateful for that fact.

I know I'm rambling, but this is a topic that still hits very close to home.

[Kevy Baby]

With all due respect, the treatment worked for you because you had enough rationality, or at least enough of a support system to convince you of what course you needed to take. Many people who are severely depressed cannot conceive of the idea that it is "all in their head." To them, it is the world that is being merciless; they are the same person that they have always been. The idea that a pill could make a cruel world easier to deal with is a completely foreign concept that they are often unwilling or unable to grasp.I think we really are on (for the most part) the same side of the argument. I think where I had the issue was with the position of similarity between someone with a terminal illness taking there own life vs. someone with a mental illness taking their own life.

A person with a terminal illness is in their rational mind and the decision to end their own life IS a difficult and painful decision. There is no amount of help that a doctor, loved ones, or anyone can provide that will take away that person's pain. This person is usually faced with only two realistic options: a (typically short) life with nothing but pain, etc. or an end to that life.

A person with a mental illness is NOT in their rational mind (I know: I've been there). Deciding to take one's own life due to depression, that person has decided to chose the easy way out. They have not looked at their options and chosen to take the easiest way out (and one could argue that they do not have the capacity to look at their options - they can only see one). But that person still made that decision and yes, I argue that they have taken the easy way out due to a weakness. That the weakness is out of their control does not mean it is not a weakness.

Yes, I was lucky enough to have people around me that were able to help me and the hardest thing I've ever done in my life was to acknowledge that I had a problem and needed help. Even accepting that I needed to take drugs to be able to live life drove me deeper into a depression. I view my road to recovery much like an alcoholic views their illness: it is an affliction that I will never be rid of and I must spend the rest of my life working to overcome it.

And I am never hesitant to discuss mental health issues. I believe we need to lessen the stigma often attached to it. It is my hope that the more I talk with people about it, the less of an issue it becomes in our society.

[Tom]

Not directed at anyone in particular, just my thoughts/experience:

What I didn't grasp, or at least fully understand, untill my depression worsened was that for people with depression (and, I assume, other mental illnesses), the world in which they perceive themselves as living, and which is the source of their depressive feelings, is as real to them as the "regular" world is to those without mental health issues. The actions they take, be they suicide or obsessive hand washing or talking to the voices they hear, are to them the logical and rational responses to what they experience. It is easy for us to say that they should do this or that, but they can't be expected to react to the world in what we see as a rational (or moral) way when the organ with which they perceive that world is broken.

Luckily, my depression was mild (relative to what it could be), and I had the capability at a certain point to step back and say "this isn't how things are supposed to be," and get help. But I experienced that other world for a little while, and I know that it's not as far away as it seems and very easy to get lost in.

[innerSpaceman]

Deciding to take one's own life due to depression, that person has decided to chose the easy way out. ... and yes, I argue that they have taken the easy way out due to a weakness.

The EASY WAY OUT???


I find it hard to believe you ever seriously contemplated suicide.





Perhaps that was a cavalier thing to say ... but no moreso than to describe a suicidal person's concept of ending their own existence as "the easy way out." Sheesh.

[Prudence]

This is a difficult issue for me because in some respects I teeter on the brink of suicide myself on a regular (sometimes daily) basis.

I know that my depression is related to a chemical imbalance of some kind. I know this because for many years I was able to take an anti-depressant that worked for me. It was great. I still had my various hang-ups and issues, but most of the time it freed me to just be myself. Not walk around in a medicated haze, not exhibit some kind of chemically induced euphoria - just be myself without the constant barrage of self-criticism.

Unfortunately, this wonder drug was pulled from the market several years ago and my pathetic HMO has not been interested in finding a suitable replacement. This leaves me in a tough spot - I feel the emotional pain I used to and I'm back to seeing nothing but fault in everything I am and do. At the same time, I've had a pretty solid glimpse of the other side so I know, intellectually, that what I'm feeling isn't the only reality out there.

Thus, I'm a bit of a split personality. On the one hand, I know that I'm probably doing better than I give myself credit for. I know that it's possible for me to be happy - or at least happier. And I have some hope that one day I'll be able to feel that way again. My emotional side, however, struggles on a regular basis to fight through a fog of negative that just won't quit. I can do things to reduce and alleviate that fog - and I do so to the best of my meager ability - but I have not managed to make it go away.

It's an interesting position. Some days I simultaneously *know* that 1) any sadness my family might feel at my passing would be short-lived and eventually outweighed by relief that I was out of their lives forever and 2) that the previous thought is complete crap manufactured by my malfunctioning brain. And maybe it's just the general utilitarian bent of my personal philosophy that those who have committed suicide don't necessarily share, and I'm sure that some do the deed out of revenge or whatnot, but I have a hard time seeing all suicides as selfish. "Selfish" is the word we apply, from our perspective, based on our sense of loss. If I didn't have experience to tell me my emotions are "wrong", I might not be here now - and I would have done it with the firm belief that, after the dust had settled, friends and family would agree that it was for the best.

[Kevy Baby]

I find it hard to believe you ever seriously contemplated suicide.Contemplated and attempted.

Perhaps that was a cavalier thing to say ... but no moreso than to describe a suicidal person's concept of ending their own existence as "the easy way out." Sheesh.I stand by my comments. It is MUCH harder to acknowledge a problem and accept help. I speak from experience. I even acknowledged to myself at the time that it was the simplest way out of my situation.

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, i'm sure for the vast majority of those who actually commit suicide, that option was the best one thought available. That does not make it the easy way out.

You needn't answer this, because it's getting very personal, but i have to wonder if seemed "simple" or "easy" for you to to end your own life.


Sorry to be nitpicky on words. If you had said "it seemed the most simple solution," I would not have jumped on it. But too many call it the "easy way out." And especially coming from someone who purportedly got very, very close the snuff point, I find that very offensive.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

But that person still made that decision and yes, I argue that they have taken the easy way out due to a weakness. That the weakness is out of their control does not mean it is not a weakness.


I would argue that, according to their perception of their life and problems, they aren't taking the easy way out, but the only way out, as they perceive it. As I see it, the "decision" part is completely out of the equation, as they are not of sound mind. We wouldn't allow a person with a mental illness to enter into a legally binding contract, and yet, we expect them to be able to make a decision in regard to their treatment? That makes no sense.

And I can't understand at all why a mental illness should be seen as a perceived weakness. With all due respect, it is that kind of thinking that often prevents people from getting the help that they need. I hope that I am misunderstanding your position because I find it hard to believe that someone who has been there would be quick to assign, what I perceive to be, blame. Certainly, that isn't what you are suggesting, is it?

[Kevy Baby]

Oh, i'm sure for the vast majority of those who actually commit suicide, that option was the best one thought available. That does not make it the easy way out.I cannot speak for others; I can only speak from my own experience. As I said above, it was the EASIEST way out. I even acknowledged that fact to myself. And I have heard that from others. I just wanted to the pan to be over.

But this is not a cavalier statement. It is a point that I and others make to emphasize a point. In dealing with someone contemplating the same thing, I say the same thing: suicide is the easy way out. And there aren't many things where the easy way is the better way.

I am educated and it affords me an opportunity to have things in life that I probably wouldn't have had I taken the easier way of not getting an education.

I enjoy a long-term relationship because I work hard at it. I could choose to take the easier way and just bail out when anything challenging comes up.

I am alive today because I chose to work hard to overcome my depression. Had I taken the easy way out, you would not be reading these words.

[Morrigoon]

And I can't understand at all why a mental illness should be seen as a perceived weakness.
What would you call it?

With all due respect, while I understand your reasons for objecting to it, it IS a disadvantage aka a weakness. The problem comes when people are unwilling to accept weakness in themselves and therefore live in denial instead. Not that I'm passing judgment on on them for it, since we all do that to some degree about at least a few aspects of our lives, but the fact remains, that mental illness is hardly counted amongst one's strengths.

[Prudence]

What would you call it?

With all due respect, while I understand your reasons for objecting to it, it IS a disadvantage aka a weakness. The problem comes when people are unwilling to accept weakness in themselves and therefore live in denial instead. Not that I'm passing judgment on on them for it, since we all do that to some degree about at least a few aspects of our lives, but the fact remains, that mental illness is hardly counted amongst one's strengths.

With all due respect, we don't generally tell people with cancer that they have a "weakness."

[Morrigoon]

This is true. But again, wouldn't call it a strength.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

What would you call it?



An illness, plain and simple.

Weakness, IMHO, implies a fault, a flaw, and ultimately ... blame. And I don't think that someone who is mentally ill is at fault or to blame. Yes, they lack the tools necessary for rational thought, and in that respect, I suppose that I could semantics-wise see your reasoning. And yet, it is precisely that lack of rational thought that makes cringe at the word "weak."

[Motorboat Cruiser]

This is true. But again, wouldn't call it a strength.

Perhaps it isn't either.

[Not Afraid]

My earlier comment in response to this:

Motorboat Cruiser][/B] http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthread.php?p=208612#post208612)
It is interesting that, when someone is suffering from enormous physical pain, such as from a terminal illness like cancer, suicide is often seen as a justifiable route. And yet, if that enormous pain is mental, rather than physical, their inability to cope is often viewed as weakness, selfish ... the easy way out.

was addressed to the view from the "outside" and how it is seen a justified under one condition and not justified under another when, in fact, both situations involve physical diseases they just effect different parts of the body.

I agree that the effects of diseases differ greatly. The effects of your liver hurting is different than the effects and outcome of your brain not functioning properly. However, they are both illnesses. We, as a society, just seem to be more accepting of certain malfunctions of the body than of others.

[Strangler Lewis]

If you look at the DSM--and who wouldn't want to--most of the disorders, especially the milder ones, are defined with respect to the outer boundaries of a perceived norm and/or to the extent they inhibit day to day functioning. In this respect, mental illness is a weakness, the same way my asthma is a weakness, but that certainly doesn't make it blameworthy.

I think the stigma attaches because if we acknowledge that our mental disturbances and responses to them can be attributed to our genetic structure, we have to acknowledge that our finer personality traits are beyond our control as well.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

My earlier comment in response to this:



was addressed to the view from the "outside" and how it is seen a justified under one condition and not justified under another when, in fact, both situations involve physical diseases they just effect different parts of the body.

I agree that the effects of diseases differ greatly. The effects of your liver hurting is different than the effects and outcome of your brain not functioning properly. However, they are both illnesses. We, as a society, just seem to be more accepting of certain malfunctions of the body than of others.

Well, in that case, I certainly misunderstood your post. I agree completely.

[€uroMeinke]

The problem with the term "weakness" is it's a comparator and not really a fact. There are many who have turned their perceived weakness or disabilities into strengths so I'm not sure what is gained by characterizing such things as a weakness since any trait can be portrayed as such depending on the circumstances.

[Morrigoon]

An illness, plain and simple.

Weakness, IMHO, implies a fault, a flaw, and ultimately ... blame. And I don't think that someone who is mentally ill is at fault or to blame. Yes, they lack the tools necessary for rational thought, and in that respect, I suppose that I could semantics-wise see your reasoning. And yet, it is precisely that lack of rational thought that makes cringe at the word "weak."

See, our problem is one of definitions. I view something as a weakness but accept it on those terms. Weakness does not require the assignation of blame in my book, it just is what it is. If something makes life more difficult, it's a weakness, as it robs you of resources (mental, emotional, physical) that you would otherwise allocate towards your goals.

But if you have a weakness, that doesn't mean you're to blame for it. If someone is born with a bad lisp and they dream of becoming a news anchor, guess what, it's a weakness. Maybe not an insurmountable one, but it means they are going to have to allocate extra personal resources toward the goal just to make them equal to their competition.

Being able to identify and accept your weaknesses is how you equip yourself to overcoming them.

But again, I think we're using a different definition of weakness. I view weaknesses as something you accept for what they are, without passing judgment on their origin.

[Tom]

It is MUCH harder to acknowledge a problem and accept help. I speak from experience.

My experience was different. For me, once I recognized that I had a problem, seeking help was fairly easy, possibly because I had seen a psychiatrist before so I had experience in telling myself that I had a mental issue that I couldn't handle on my own. What was most difficult for me was recognizing that I had a problem. Not acknowledging it as such, but simply realizing that something was not as it should be.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

See, our problem is one of definitions. I view something as a weakness but accept it on those terms. Weakness does not require the assignation of blame in my book, it just is what it is. If something makes life more difficult, it's a weakness, as it robs you of resources (mental, emotional, physical) that you would otherwise allocate towards your goals.

But if you have a weakness, that doesn't mean you're to blame for it. If someone is born with a bad lisp and they dream of becoming a news anchor, guess what, it's a weakness. Maybe not an insurmountable one, but it means they are going to have to allocate extra personal resources toward the goal just to make them equal to their competition.

Being able to identify and accept your weaknesses is how you equip yourself to overcoming them.

But again, I think we're using a different definition of weakness. I view weaknesses as something you accept for what they are, without passing judgment on their origin.

But I think that there is judgment being passed here, although perhaps not intentionally. You have written that you see weakness as the opposite of strength. I think most people would deem strength to be an admirable quality, wouldn't you? And in that regard, it stands to reason that weakness isn't something that is neutral. It is undesirable, and what seems to be implied in some of these posts is that, if only people tried harder, they could fix this undesirable defect.

You can make yourself stronger but you can't really make yourself not have a mental illness. And not only can you not usually combat it on your own - in many cases, you don't even recognize that it exists. With a lisp, at least the problem is staring you in the face and you can make rational decisions on how best to remedy it. With mental illness, often you are fooled into thinking that you aren't the problem - it is the rest of the world that has turned upside-down. Rational decisions don’t even come into play. So, how do you "equip yourself to overcome that?"

[innerSpaceman]

To play the semantics game a little further, I posit that people with cancer do have a weakness. We just won't be rude enough to say so. But if an antelope had cancer, that would be a weakness that might get them picked off by a puma. We just don't particularly care about hurting the antelope's feelings, so we call a spade a spade.

Funny how the same word, weakness, can tend to imply some sort of personal failing when we apply it to a human. But it's possible for Morigoon to have meant it, as she said, in very clinical terms. Too bad so many words are freighted with human judgment. They needn't be.



Oh, except for "The Easy Way Out." That comes with judgment included free. :p

[€uroMeinke]

I think "weakness" is fine but it requires contest when used alone as an absolute it becomes a problem even in the most Darwinian examples. Certain "diseases" (e.g. Sickle Cell Anemia) while a potential weakness today were a strength before modern medicine caught up with the genetics.

Saying something is a weakness does nothing to further the dialogue on what to do or react to a particular condition, Rather it comes off as a dismissive way of saying, "that's not my problem."

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I think I bristle at the word in the context of disease - mental or otherwise. MBC's answer ("I'd call it an illness") was exactly what I said out loud before I scrolled down and saw it.

Sure - if you want to reduce things to objectivity, an illness can make things harder for someone. So if you want to call that "weak," that's probably apt, in a way.

But I would argue that you can't separate implications from some words - and in this case, even if it's not intended, the word sounds cold, and harsh, and lacking in compassion. And I believe that it's the opposite of the kind of thing someone who, say, is battling depression, needs to hear. Would you say "I'm so glad you're getting treatment for your weakness" or "I'm so glad you're getting treatment for your illness"?

Also, while in Cindy's strictest terms, the patient might be "weak" compared to someone who is not ill... the most strength I've ever seen in people has been in those who were fighting one illness or another. Even in those strict terms, I would never, ever, ever call my mother "weak" after twelve years of fighting. Because I've often said I can't imagine lasting a fraction of that time with her "weakness" - and her strength.

[Nephythys]

I think I bristle at the word in the context of disease - mental or otherwise. MBC's answer ("I'd call it an illness") was exactly what I said out loud before I scrolled down and saw it.

Sure - if you want to reduce things to objectivity, an illness can make things harder for someone. So if you want to call that "weak," that's probably apt, in a way.

But I would argue that you can't separate implications from some words - and in this case, even if it's not intended, the word sounds cold, and harsh, and lacking in compassion. And I believe that it's the opposite of the kind of thing someone who, say, is battling depression, needs to hear. Would you say "I'm so glad you're getting treatment for your weakness" or "I'm so glad you're getting treatment for your illness"?

Also, while in Cindy's strictest terms, the patient might be "weak" compared to someone who is not ill... the most strength I've ever seen in people were in those who were fighting one illness or another. Even in those strict terms, I would never, ever, ever call my mother "weak" after twelve years of fighting. Because I've often said I can't imagine lasting a fraction of that time with her "weakness" - and her strength.


That was on my mind too-

I had an "illness" I had cancer- it took strength to fight it, to make it to every treatment and deal with the toll on my body.

I have also fought depression- it takes strength.

Damn right it's strength when you fight those things- mental or physical.

[innerSpaceman]

Yes, lacking in compassion. Which is why you ascribe it to an antelope, but not to a person. Out of politeness, compassion, warmth and kindness.

I had the same reaction to "the easy way out." Language is a funny thing. That you can't apply the word "weakness" to humans, but can to animals reminds me of nothing so much as languages where certain references must be feminine and some must be masculine.


Anyway, here on the 'net, even with our vast array of smilies :) :cool: :blush: :( :D :rolleyes: :eek: , words matter most when body language, facial expression and vocal intonation are all absent.


Of course, we know so much about each other, we can use personalities as a guide, too. Which is why I'm willing to cut Cindy some slack ... and why I won't do the same for Kevy. :evil:

[Not Afraid]

Weakness is a judgement expression even in the most banal terms as in "he's got a weak chin". I was never so strong or pulling from my reserves of strength as when I was recovering from disease.

[Prudence]

I have also fought depression- it takes strength.


Damn skippy.

I had something else to say, but it's too personal.

So I'll just repeat: damn skippy.