Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull [use spoiler tags, please]

[Gemini Cricket]

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

This is it. Indy 4 comes out this week. It has already played at Cannes.
And a bunch of critics have already seen it.

rottentomatoes.com rating as of this post:
77% - 20 Fresh, 6 Rotten.

I can't wait to see this one. I'm seeing it on opening nite with iSm... a couple of times...
:D

I can't wait to read our reviews of it, too.
:)

[RStar]

According to the trailer the Crystal Skull is made of pure gold. What's up with that??

I'm looking forward to this as well. :snap:

[Gemini Cricket]

I have a bad feeling about this movie. I think it's going to just be okay. But it's mostly my fault. I have huge expectations for this flick. But I guess casting Karen Allen is a step in the right direction. I would have been less interested if Willie Scott made a return instead. Ugh.

[Alex]

I saw it yesterday, but I am not able to share my thoughts in public until Thursday. Someday I'll be big enough that I can ignore embargoes with impunity.

[Gemini Cricket]

IJATKOTCS just shot up to 80% on rt.com. Interesting.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm trying to separate my excitement from my expectations. I think the movie's going to be MEH, but I'm sooo freaking excited anyway.

I barely like the Indiana Jones sequels, but I have a fondness for the series as a whole. And I'm likely among the world's biggest Raiders of the Lost Ark fans.


I suppose I'd be more excited if George Lucas hadn't demonstrated his total lack of talent in the Star Wars prequels. Still ... this also has the excitement of a great 80's film trilogy revived in the 21st Century ... only this time still starring Harrison Ford.

Even if it sucks, I'm going to have a great time.

[Nephythys]

According to the trailer the Crystal Skull is made of pure gold. What's up with that??

I'm looking forward to this as well. :snap:

Odd-have not seen that in the trailer.

Actually it is based on an actual crystal skull- which is supposed to be amazing in that it was carved and did not crack the crystal- supposedly a mythic feat. (per an article in Entertainment Weely- will find the exact quote later)

It's in a museum somewhere.

[Moonliner]

Odd-have not seen that in the trailer.

Actually it is based on an actual crystal skull- which is supposed to be amazing in that it was carved and did not crack the crystal- supposedly a mythic feat. (per an article in Entertainment Weely- will find the exact quote later)

It's in a museum somewhere.

And it's a fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_skull). At least in regards to it (or any other large crystal skull) being from the pre-Colombian era.

[RStar]

And it's a fake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_skull). At least in regards to it (or any other large crystal skull) being from the pre-Colombian era.

Well, wether they are thousands of years old, or hundreds, they are still pretty amazing that they were able to make them.

I saw a peice on the history channel mentioning that there were about 6 of them known around the world.

[Gemini Cricket]

Anyone want to make guesses about how much Indy 4 is going to make on its opening weekend?
Although this may get confusing because it opens on a Thursday. Not sure how they calculate it then...

I'm guessing $115 mil.

[Alex]

You including the holiday Monday?

[Gemini Cricket]

You including the holiday Monday?
Oops. I didn't. $130.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I didn't know where to post this. Youtubery? One of the zillion Indy threads we've got going? So, here:

Harrison Ford gets deforestation. (http://defamer.com/5010233/harrison-ford-and-the-kingdom-of-the-crystallized-chest-wax?autoplay=true) I mean, he really gets it.

[innerSpaceman]

I keep thinking "Hey, I didn't post that" when I read GC's stuff today. We have similar avatars at the moment.

TeeHee, I'm off to see Indy 4 (which I'm calling "Raiders of the Lost Ark Four") in just a little bit. Gemini Cricket is joining me later. I'll post a spoiler-tagged review tomorrow sometime.


I'm So Excited!!!!

[Gemini Cricket]

I keep thinking "Hey, I didn't post that" when I read GC's stuff today. We have similar avatars at the moment.
Ha ha.
Luckily, I found another hot picture of Mr. Ford.
;)

[lashbear]

He was at his most buffed in "Temple of doom" - I'll have to find a shirtless shot from that.....

[mousepod]

I'm (momentarily) jealous of those going to the arclight tonight. When I bought my tickets for the new theater at the Americana, they suggested that I get there 2 hours early to get a good seat. I'd rather nap and show up at 11:45...

[Gemini Cricket]

I can't wait to see this film!

iSm and I are going to the Mann's Village Theatre in Westwood tonight (technically the movie starts tomorrow morning) and then the Arclight Dome tomorrow night. Tonight we wait in line. Tomorrow we don't. Yay!
:)

[Gemini Cricket]

Just got back from seeing it.
I liked it a lot.
Now it's bedtime.

[Moonliner]

Damn my bones. Why did I HAVE to click on that spoiler GC? Why I ask?

Ahh well what's done is done. Thanks for that review.

[lashbear]

Just got back from seeing it.
I liked it a lot.
Now it's bedtime.
Awwwww... Now I know. Thanks !!

[Moonliner]

Awwwww... Now I know. Thanks !!

Hey! Quite stealing my bit you foreign devil!

[Alex]

Here's my review (http://www.mouseplanet.com/articles.php?art=sr080522as). And here's a recap of my review:

I had enough fun while watching it but it isn't good enough (and there are several actively bad things about it) that I don't ever need to see it again. CGI is way overused, Shia LeBeouf doesn't have what it takes to be Indy: The Next Generation, and the "Crystal Skulls" part of the movie is poorly executed and doesn't really make a lick of sense. However, Harrison Ford still has a lot of charisma as Indy, mixed in with the bad CGI are several very amusing action moments, and the movie contains what may be Harrison Ford's best 2 seconds of acting ever committed to screen.

[mousepod]

I have a new least-favorite Indy movie.

[Gemini Cricket]

I have a new least-favorite Indy movie.
For me, ToD gets the crown for Lease Favorite. But I could see how someone could loathe this film. I really liked it. I didn't love it, but I liked it.
I'm composing a review now. It won't be as good as Alex's, but it will be okay.
:)

[Not Afraid]

I don't want to click on the spoiler tags, I just want to know if it was good or not.

[Gemini Cricket]

I don't want to click on the spoiler tags, I just want to know if it was good or not.
I thought it was good. Not great, but good.

[Not Afraid]

Well, I have tickets no matter what, so I'm going to see it regardless. I just want to set my expectation meter accordingly.

[Alex]

I put mine in a spoiler tag because GC had done so. It doesn't contain any spoilers, just my overall view of the movie.

But the even shorter version:

It was just barely good enough to get me through the screening with a positive opinion. As soon as the house lights came up and I started to think about it my esteem rapidly began to decline. My review includes this line "we better shut up or I'm going to talk myself into hating this movie."

So, a mild pass for a single viewing and to be part of a cultural moment.


Damn, that didn't end up being any shorter than what I had in the spoiler tag. Even though it had less detail. I suck.

[mousepod]

For the record, I agree with the sentiment of Alex's review but feel like he's being a little too generous. Did not love.

[innerSpaceman]

Being that I'm seeing it again in a few hours, I decided not to solidify my opinion, which so far may be based on emotional fan boy reaction.

My preliminary review is...

:D :D :D :) :D :) :D :snap: :cheers: :snap: :D

[BarTopDancer]

I am looking forward to a summer action movie with stuff blowing up and chases. And Harrison Ford looking yummy.

Without reading the spoilers, will I be disappointed? :P

[mousepod]

I loved the Hellboy trailer. And the Spirit teaser.

[Alex]

I'm honestly surprised by iSm's initial response. I was expecting an epic denunciation.

[BarTopDancer]

I'm honestly surprised by iSm's initial response. I was expecting an epic denunciation.

He has to see it 15 more times.

[Gemini Cricket]

Thar be spoilers ahead (a lot of them) so no clicking if you want to be surprised.
:)


SPOILERS! Warning: long post ahead.


One of the reasons I liked this movie so much is that I cut it a lot of slack. It was nice catching up with Indiana Jones and seeing where he is 19 years later. And I have been curious about this film for about 2 years now. But event though I like the character so much and have a huge love for Raiders of the Lost Ark, I can't say that I have the same love for Crystal Skull.
And after thinking about how I would rank the four movies, I'd have to say I'd rank Raiders as first, Skull and Crusade in a tie for second and Temple last. (I consider Raiders to be Spielberg's best film.)
There are a couple of things that you have to get used to in this film from the very beginning:
1. Harrison Ford is old. So is Indy. It took me a bit of getting used to seeing him gray. But I am glad they didn't dye his hair and try to convince us he looked the same since Crusade. Indy makes a good crusty old man.
2. Cate Blanchett's accent. I love her but I kept hearing Natasha from Rocky & Bullwinkle. But after awhile, you get used to it.
I found the beginning to be slow. Too much of the racing scene and too much talking in the warehouse. But thank god we didn't have to sit through Spielberg's version of a Busby Berkley number for the first five minutes. There is a wink to the first movie during this scene and it's right there in your face, no avoiding it.
Indy has a new sidekick but I didn't care about him at all throughout the movie. What a waste of a part. It could have gone to some cool comedian but it didn't and could have been removed from the movie altogether.
Personally, I hated the scene where Indy is walking through a nuclear testing site. I mean they set up mannequins to represent real people, but having these dummies watching Howdy Doody on a TV? How did the government pull that off and why would they do that? To see if TV's survive nuclear blasts? The mushroom cloud? Too much. Too much.
From there, stuff happens (including homages to Denholm Elliott and Sean Connery - that kinda pulled at my heartstrings) and we get introduced to Shia LaBouf's character, Mutt. Spielberg does his damned best to compare him to Marlon Brando, but far from Brando LaBouf is... I didn't buy Mutt's toughness. And there were a couple of times I wanted to see Indy punch him in the nose... Mutt combs his hair, that means he's cool. Meh. We see Mutt's soft side in a scene, but I didn't care enough about him to feel his grief.
Motorcycle chase scene was okay, but something occurs that Spielberg does that pisses me off. He takes things one step beyond believable. Indy being saved by Marcus Brody's statue is funny when the car runs into it. But the head falling off and hitting the driver in the crotch is the step too far that I mentioned. Yuck. The scene in the library was hysterical. I liked that.
I'll skip to the graveyard scene. I liked it a lot. A lot of fun action and fight sequences. But nothing that stuck out as memorable to me. We see the skull and right off I say to myself - aliens. And that made me cringe. How was Spielberg gonna pull that off? Not sure and I don't think he ever does pull it off.
Stuff happens and Indy and Mutt get captured. Cate Blanchett gets to shine here but the character's belief in the supernatural was hard to swallow for me. She's so calculating and precise (she and her clothes look perfect throughout the film) it seems like someone like her would laugh at things not explained as fact.
We get re-introduced to Marion again and her appearance is welcomed. And get used to Marion smiling because she does a lot of it through the movie and it seemed kinda hokey. Marion got a dose of the same treatment Sallah and Marcus got in the 3rd movie. She was turned into just a sidekick with not a whole lot to say.
There's also Ox played by John Hurt who is vital to the plot (is there one?) but he was a forgettable character.
I will agree with Alex that the scene where they meet again is good.
There's a quicksand scene and a revelation that Indy is Mutt's father. Too bad we didn't get to like him all that much. There's a funny scene with quicksand and a snake that made me laugh.
On a side note, one of the things I hate about parts 2-4 is that they are lit too brightly and things (sets, costumes, props etc) are too perfect and clean. I don't know how to express myself clearly on that one, but Raiders used a lot of shadow and existing light in scenes. It made the Indy world more believable.
More stuff happens and we get a jeep chase through the woods that is half awesome, half stupid.
Again, sword fight between Mutt and Blanchett is cool. Sword fight between Mutt and Blanchett while Mutt straddles the two vehicles? Bleh. One step to far, Stevie. And then there's this absolutely ridiculously stupid Tarzan scene involving Mutt. WTF? Lame.
The characters encounter giant fire ants that consume a couple of bad guys. The special effect of the ants is great, but I thought it was kind of hokey. Seeing a guy being eaten alive - cool! Seeing him being dragged to the anthill with lightning speed and mega-strength on the ants part - lame! Eating someone alive should have been the stopping point with the ants.
And then comes the part I despised. What I liked about the first movie was that a lot of the things that happened could happen in real life. Yeah, the magic ark melting people couldn't happen... but it was one of the only times when you had to suspend your disbelief and that's fine. With Skull, you had to do it a lot.
Marion drives off a cliff and the boat/car that they are in careens off of three (two? I forget) waterfalls and everyone is fine after all that. In fact, after one fall of a 100 foot waterfall, everyone's still in the boat. I shook my head at that. Lame.
Attacking natives, yaddah yaddah...
From there, the sequences up until the big reveal I loved. The giant temple at the beginning and how it all worked and moved was classic Indy-ness. Good stuff. (But again, lit too brightly.)
The big reveal: the temple houses a giant spaceship and there are aliens.
That's where the movie went CGI crazy. There was too much of it and it left me feeling meh about the climax. Which is not good.
The Jones Family is finally together and everyone's happy.
Indy married Marion at the end and all is well.
Does the torch get passed to Mutt? Almost, but no. I actually liked that part a lot. Nice try, dinglecheese, start your own series of adventure movies.

I liked the movie but I didn't really love it. And nothing in it made me cheer. Other people in the audience did, but not me.
I would have liked to see a harder Marion like we saw in the first one. Less smiling.
I would have liked to see more grit in this film. More grain, less shiny happy locations and lighting.

But a big thing that would have helped this movie and franchise out was that it deserved the Casino Royale/Batman Begins style treatment. I think if they took it a step away from a campy cartoon-like and to a more serious and (again) gritty feel, it would have been cool to see. Set up Mutt for a more realistic documentary hand-held type romp for his movies which follow. (If they follow.)

The more I think about this movie, the more I don't like it.
But I was entertained and I did laugh at certain places. And I really do love happy endings.

3 stars out of 5 for me.*

*Subject to change after I see it again tonight and on Saturday. :D

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I'm not opening it. I'm not opening it. I'm not opening it. I'm not opening it...

[innerSpaceman]

Don't OPEN IT.


If you are seeing the movie Saturday night, JUST WAIT.



As for the expectations game .... I will concede that some people in our large viewing group last night did not like it at all. Some really liked it a lot. And most were pretty happy with it.


I LOVED it.



That said, I am withholding my final opinion. I remember loving The Last Crusade when it came out, simply because it was mildly good and did not suck nearly as much as Temple of Doom. But it hasn't stood the test of time, and while it has its charms, I don't hold Last Crusade in high regard any more.


But the recent Indy Marathon at LSP and Tom's really helped me enjoy all the films as a series far better than I would as individual movies (with the obvious exception of Raiders of the Lost Ark, which stands on its own as a great film). Perhaps I'm holding Crystal Skull to this less lofty standard. And so what?


But just as mousepod has a new least favorite Indy film, I easily have a new second favorite.


Raiders 4 Rocks. I can't wait to see it again tonight. And I'm really looking forward to seeing it with LoTs of LoT folk Saturday night ... so I can start taking about it!!

[lashbear]

Work is paying for all of us (at work, not you guys) to go see it on Thursday night. with popcorn and drinks. Yay !

[mousepod]

Some thoughts:

1. I don't mind that Harrison Ford is older, or that Indy is portrayed as older. Therefore, setting the movie in 1957 and making the baddies Russian was fine by me. However, Russians murdering a large number of American soldiers on a military base? And no visible repercussions other than the FBI putting pressure on Indy. Please.

2. Indy's hiding in the fridge to escape an atomic blast? Clever. The CGI of said fridge flying hundreds of feet through the air and crashing to the earth without injuring Indy? Stupid.

3. Shia Labeouf as the Wild One made me laugh until I realized that Spielberg wasn't playing him as silly. Everyone should have been laughing at him.

4. The big chase scene and INDY RIDES BITCH? (excuse the horrible sexist slang)

5. The skull was a really obvious telegraph to the Alien climax. Well, that and the fact that the opening sequence involved a recovery of an alien's body. Which makes me wonder...

6. Why did the typical opening MacGuffin have to deviate so far from the original series' concept. Too much real information going on here...

7. How can iSm question the inflatable raft scene in ToD and not have major problems with the 3 waterfalls? Or the baddies car landing on top of the good guys? Or the tarzan scene? Or any of the other ridiculous cartoon-like escapes that are clearly based on CGI and not brilliant stunts?

8. Was there a plot? What was the real goal of the story? For Indy to vindicate himself? That's implied, for sure, but he doesn't seem to be anything more than mildly annoyed that he's been put under scrutiny by the FBI and fired from his job. To save Ox? Unlike saving his dad in Last Crusade, there's not any real reason why Indy would need to go on a rescue mission. For a series that's based on a bunch of setpieces strung together, there's not a lot of stringing going on.

9. The climax was more X-Files than anything else. Indy's typical "It's just a story" line, delivered in the first act is as silly as ever (since he's seen so much supernatural stuff go down in the first 3 flicks he should know better). Is he Mulder or Scully? He's Muldy.

10. I know this is a continuation of the last point - but what did we see happen in the climax? The alien crystal skeletons fused together in some interdimensional thingie and then the flesh and blood interdimensional being gave an angry(?) look at the funny Commie lady and burned her eyes and brain? How come?

OK... I know I have more... but those are some of the biggies.

On the plus side, the action sequences were fun. Harrison Ford was cool as ever. Karen Allen was welcome, not only for her character, but for the fact that once she came into the movie, Shia's lines were dramatically decreased.

I'm looking forward to the next movie, which I hope will be titled: "Indy 5: Old Man With a Hat".

[Alex]

Using spoiler tags until Sunday is going to SUUUCCCK.

One thing I liked -- and by liked I mean "thought was stupidly ill considered -- was that in the jungle the Russians have this giant machine that is cutting a path through the jungle for them. The first thing Indy does when catching up to them is disable that giant machine. Then they go on a multiple mile car chase through the jungle. Apparently that giant jungle eating machine was completely unnecessary and someone at ILM had said "hey, I bought this giant bandsaw machine animation in a clip art package from the sale table at Office Max, is it ok if I use it?"

The Tarzan was extremely stupid.

Yes, the waterfall was bad. Yes, the one car landing on top of the other was bad. But how about the car landing on the tree so that it can be gently deposited in the river and then the tree whipsawing back to slap Russians off the cliff face? How awful was that?

I loved the motorcycle chase through the UofC campus. That was the closest the movie ever came to establishing Mutt as an heir and showing Indy's graceful aging. He was still actively involved but not completely in charge.

I loved the opening up until the refridgerator and then standing on the hilltop to watch the mushroom cloud.

I hate to typecast but the presence of the janitor from Scrubs was a distraction.

Poor, poor Ray Winstone. If he had to plaintively shout "Indy!" one more time I suspect he would have retired from filmmaking.

[Gemini Cricket]

Adding mousepod's thoughts:
And what happened to the flying saucer? Did it fly away? I don't remember seeing that. And if it did fly away, did it leave a rainbow in its wake?

[Gemini Cricket]

Responding to Alex's post above.
The tree cutting thing seemed to me to be a nod to Ford's support of the rainforests. Him destroying the machine that cuts down trees seemed to make it feel that way. But good point on them not really needing it... Ha ha.

[Alex]

My response to GC's response. Unspoilered because it gives no information on its own.

It's interesting that you say that. Lani suggested the same thing and I said "I think that's reaching a bit." But now that two people have said it independently of each other that makes it fact.

[Strangler Lewis]

Query: does the movie explain Indy's ignorance of the fact that he has a son in a way that makes you not go "yuck"?

[mousepod]

In response to GC:

The flying saucer went to another dimension, not outer space. They live between dimensions - whatever that means.

[Gemini Cricket]

In response to GC:

The flying saucer went to another dimension, not outer space. They live between dimensions - whatever that means.
That's right... got it.

Mr. Lewis - Kinda.

[Gemini Cricket]

Here's something I was thinking about. (I'm daydreaming a lot today having had only 3 hours of sleep.) Wouldn't that snake have pulled apart because of Indy's weight? I only ask this because if I were directing it, I would find out. You know, in some humane way...
AND with a forest full of freakin' Tarzan vines, they couldn't find any vines to pull Indy out? Or didn't Mutt have a belt?

[mousepod]

One semi-inside joke that made me chuckle. "Indiana" was George Lucas' dog. "Willie" (from ToD) was Spielberg's dog. "Short Round" was Bill Huyck's dog. And now the new sidekick is named "Mutt".

[Alex]

I mentioned it in my review, but I really did think, up until I confirmed credits while writing the review, that they'd said his name was Mud.

[Gemini Cricket]

Crystal Skull has a solid 80% on rottentomatoes. That's pretty good.

[Alex]

It's a crowd splitter.

63% among "cream of the crop" critics. 85% among everybody else. 22% is, I think, a larger than normal split.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

Our company had an "offsite" meeting at Big Newport this morning.

I think I remember seeing "Mutt" on his jacket.

I liked the movie. At the beginning of the movie I didn't recognize Harrison Ford's voice. I believe it has changed somewhat since the last movies, which is understandable. I am amazed at Harrison Ford, if I read it correctly he is about 6 years older than Sean Connery when he played Indy's dad in the Last Crusade. I can only hope I look half that good when I get to be that age.

One comment that one character made in the movie really stood out for me. When Indy was looking at the pictures of all the people he had lost, his friend said something to the effect of "You are at that point where life quits giving you gifts and starts taking them away". That really hit home for me, I must be getting to be an old geezer.

I was just so happy to have another Indiana Jones movie to watch, I was revelling in the nostalgia, and willing to suspend any disbelief. I was entertained.



Does the Irina Spalko character remind you of Edna Mode (sans glasses)?

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:h0npXKV-VrsJ:briansp.com/blog/wp-content/edna3.jpg

[innerSpaceman]

This is a response to mousepod’s original list post, since he addressed me directly. I’ve not read further than that yet.

1. Yes, Indy is and old man. Older in fact than he would naturally be in 1957, which I understand is the last era they could possibly portray without Indy being absurd (well, more absurd). Indy’s age has always been all over the map. He didn’t look that much younger in Temple of Doom, purportedly taking place 2 years before Raiders of the Lost Ark. He looked way older in Last Crusade, supposedly just two years after Raiders.

For this one where he’s a good ten years older than his character is supposed to be ... well, I figure he’s aging a little faster than normal since he drank from the Holy Grail and then crossed the seal. If I recall the messed up mythos right, the Templar Twins were immortal till they left the cave after 150 years, but then aged rather rapidly. Or so it was sorta maybe implied.

As for the Ruskies ... I don’t know there were no repercussions for them having attacked a U.S. military base. Who says there were not? The movie was following Indy, not the U.S. authorities.


2. Yes, the fridge was clever and the unscathed survival in the flying fridge was crazy. (I loved the shot of Indy and the Mushroom Cloud though). I have long, long ago made my peace with CARTOON action in the Indy series. I don’t like it, but it’s been that way ever since Temple of Doom more than two decades ago. To bitch about it now is pointless. That’s what Indy IS. I prefer the Raiders style, but you either accept Cartoon Action or you don’t enjoy these movies. I decided to accept it. It allowed me to enjoy this film. There’s so much cartoon action, that you either get over that or don’t bother showing up.


3. Shia Labeouf was played enough for laughs for me. I wasn’t aghast in disbelief at him being a tough motorcycle 50's boy. Then again, though he is an appealing actor ... he didn’t light up the screen like Sean Connery or Short Round. Of course, those were much weaker films where the supporting character was the main saving grace. I’d personally rather have the better move with the weaker supporting character.


4. No problem here with "Gramps" riding Bitch. I thought it was one of the better action sequences in the film, and the old man as second fiddle in the action department was to be expected. Frankly, I wish they had stuck with that ... but Indy goes on to be the most virile 70-year-old in the movies!


5. Yes, the Alien plot was "telegraphed" (i.e., revealed) in the opening sequence. Who says it was supposed to be a surprise?


6. I LOVED that the was the McGuffin was employed this time. Ever since Raiders, adherence to the quest for the McGuffin has been a weak spot in the Indy movies. I rather like what they did with it this time around. One of the big plusses of the movie in my book.


7. In 1984, I had a huge problem with the onset of Cartoon Action when Indy and Co. jumped out of a plane on an inflating raft, landed on a mountain top, slid down the snowy slopes ... then fell over the side of a 3,000 foot cliff into a raging river - - and no one fell out of the boat.
In 2008, I’m over it.

Shia fell out of the boat over each of the falls. And everyone fell out of the boat over the last one. I consider the sequence a distinct improvement in realism. But see my comments in Item 2 above re the acceptance of Cartoon Action.

Frankly, though the CGI was obvious in many places, the effects were still better than some of the truly horrid photographic effects in the Indy series, most infamously the aerial dogfight in Last Crusade. And while too much CGI is regrettable, it’s better than when the series routinely went from grand outdoor locations to cheesy studio set-ups whose fake-ness was painfully obvious (the rope-bridge wall in Temple of Doom and the ship propeller tank in Last Crusade spring to mind).

Ok, yeah, too much of Indy 4 succumbed to the Peter Jackson folly of two steps too many over the top. Tarzan swinging and Dual Car Dueling were indeed groan-inducing. But once I decided to accept cartoon action, I decided to just deal. But I’m not saying I didn’t have a problem with the excesses of stupidity.


8. There was more of a plot than in Temple of Doom, but admittedly not much of one. I think the setpieces have been strung together inartfully ever since Raiders, so it’s long past the time to complain about that factor now. Oh the plot is a thin collection of strung together action sequences? Tell me something I didn’t know going in.


9. The climax was almost a direct lift from the X-files movie. I liked it better this time. But since everything in the series is a direct lift, this one didn’t particularly bug me. And although he dissed the concept of mindreading, Indy didn’t ever express scepticism about alien life forms visiting the earth. It seemed to me, for the first time, he’s accepted the paranormal ... and I rather like that about this story - as his disbelief in the earlier films was ridiculous (albeit in Raiders, the absurdity only existed once the mismatching prequel was made).


10. I didn’t need a reason for the aliens to behave menacingly. The trio of 50's paranoia icons of Commie Scare / Nuclear Testing / and Alien Invasion were brilliantly saluted in this film.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm excited to see it again tonight. I am. I love the energy of opening weekend crowds. :)

[innerSpaceman]

The crowd last night was more subdued than I'd hoped. Though I will say ....There aren't really any CHEER FOR INDY moments like there were in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Ugh, in posting about the myriad lame points, I hope I'm not talking my self into intellectually hating a movie I was emotionally loving.

[mousepod]

Thanks for the response iSm... I had hoped you would address those points... glad you did.

I'm thinking that time will mellow me on the movie, and when I eventually see it again (not this week!), I'll like it a whole lot more.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I was bad - I went to see it today. I will save my final judgement for after Saturdays viewing, though I tend to agree with what has been said already. Although I will add this one thing...

George need to hang it up -badly....

[flippyshark]

I found the movie pleasant to watch, but I was never excited. Indeed, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm capable of being excited by action sequences anymore. They all just seem like stitched together collages, bits of animation and live footage manipulated to death, with no palpable sense of peril. And this is all action movies, not just Indy. (Although, the action sequences here struck me as strangely low key. Where is that delicious tension that had me gasping back in 1981? Can it ever happen for me again? Please?)

So, agreeable time killer, but I can tell that thinking about it is going to do the movie no favors.

Oh, and the CGI gophers. They may as well have been hand drawn cel animation by Bob Clampett for how blatantly unreal they came off. Actual gophers are cute and funny without doing anything at all. Could they not have somehow gotten real honest to goodness footage of gophers giving a dramatic stare or just gazing straight ahead and wiggling their noses?

I'm sure to have other thoughts, but these were the non-spoilery ones.

[innerSpaceman]

A repeat viewing does nothing to improve it.

Of course, the emotional reaction I had the first screening can never be repeated. And an enthusiastic audience makes all the difference as well. (Opening Night reserved seating Dome crowd = bleh; First Show general admission fan-packed Village = excitement.)


This may have been a one-trick pony. Well, we'll always have Paris.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I'm sorry, gophers?

I haven't been reading the spoiler tags (or critic reaction or anything) so I am positively perplexed. But don't tell me any more about it!

[Gemini Cricket]

I liked it less the second time around. And yes, groundhogs or gophers or whatever infest the beginning of this film... But there was a very funny dissolve between the Paramount Mountain and a gopher/groundhog hill at the top of the movie...

[Alex]

As with many of the flaws in the movie I would have been completely fine with it as an exception but unfortunately it was not. The prairie dogs didn't bother me but the monkey during Mutt's Tarzan scene did, especially when Irina was fighting with them in her boat-jeep.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't know what about any of the Raiders sequels led anyone to expect anything more realistic than a Road Runner Cartoon.


Go to the film with expectations of live-action Wiley Coyote and ACME products, and you'll be fine.


If you want reasonably realistic, gritty and fantasticly conceived, performed, directed and realized Indiana Jones ... pop in Raiders of the Lost Ark. This new one is no more an equal to that classic movie milestone than either Temple of Doom or The Last Crusade, but it's also no worse than either of those widely-accepted Indiana Jones adventures.

Sheesh.




I can't be a wholehearted defender of Crystal Skull. It's got a laundry list of problems, and a plethora of charms.

[Alex]

I agree those things exist in the other sequels. I just think they are pervasive in this one in ways that they aren't in the others.

And I'm not sure I can buy into the idea that because the Indy series has previously done bad things, that their repetition makes them more acceptable.

[innerSpaceman]

It makes it more acceptable if you purchased a ticket to a revival of a 20-year-old franchise whose tennets, whether desireable or not, are long-ago established.


I'm not trying to make anyone "wrong" for their opinions. Opinions I happen to have shared 24 years ago when the first Raiders sequel was released.

I just want to suggest a frame of mind condusive to enjoying the film (many people here are going to see it for the first time tomorrow night), and to suggest that frame of mind is not out of keeping with what's been established in the Indiana Jones universe.


I'm the first one to decry the absurdity that's been established in the Indiana Jones universe ... but it's been established for decades and acceptance of it is pretty crucial to enjoying your two hours and fourteen dollars spent.

[Gemini Cricket]

$25,041,072 for Indiana Jones on Thursday.

[innerSpaceman]

One sixteenth of that was from me and Gemini Cricket alone!!

[Alex]

Amazingly that is underperforming expectations. But it is still going to make a metric bucketload of money.

[lashbear]

Greg & I have booked seats to see it this Sun (Sat your time) at Gold Class, with the recliner chairs, champagne and cheese-platter.

Now that's swank. Here's hoping we enjoy the movie.

I have a problem with CGI "Stunts" - from the trailers, it looks like the days of massive live-action sets are gone, and that's what used to give these type of movies the "Ooh, he's in danger" feeling... the actor (or stuntman) was dropping down inside a temple on a rope into a pit of (some very real) snakes, or facing being crushed between a truck and a dirt wall, or in a citadel with deadly flesh-eating rats about to be BBQed, and mostly, they were doing it for real, albeit safely, but for real. (Yes, I know there was a bit more CGI in Last Crusade, and I hated that CGI as well...)

Now, thanks to CGI, people can drive alongside the edge of cliffs, swing from massive heights etc, without the slightest risk of danger, and unfortunately, without the slightest hint of audience thrill either (cos we know it's all just CGI)

I'll see if I think different tomorrow afternoon.

[flippyshark]

My "day later" feelings are that I really had a pleasant time watching it, but it's such candy floss, I'm already forgetting a lot about it.

As to lashbears misgivings about CG stunts and sets, a big amen from me, but that's the way of things now. Indy 4 is obviously guilty as charged, but hardly the worst offender. (It wasn't Jerry Bruckheimer ridiculous.) But I can't help thinking that one day, a studio or director will do something truly "the old fashioned way" and make some major bucketloads of money. (And what if it was something original, not a franchise extension of any kind. There has to be a next big thing coming along someday, unrelated to any existing comic book, movie or TV series. Such hopes keep me going during the rough patches.)

[NickO'Time]

The bad things about the film..
There is no way in hell that Indy could step out of a Fridge and not come out unscathed. Total Bull-@#$%

Karen Allen returning didn't do anything for me, She could have been left out.
The Aliens and UFO theme didn't surprise me that it was in the film.
What I did like:
Loved all of 50's detail and loved final scenes with the Alien.
Glad too see they still acknowledged "the Ark of Covenant" in the warehouse scene.
Loved the cars and motorbikes.:)

[Gemini Cricket]

About $31 million on Friday...

[innerSpaceman]

The Bond films do all their stunts the old-fashioned way, and no one notices. I don't see the impetus to keep doing that. Everyone assumes most unrealistic things are done with CGI ... even when they're not.


As for Indy 4's GGI laden-effects ... I have to admit I liked them better than the truly awful photographic effects in the old series (they had particular trouble with airplanes in both sequels) and prefered the CGI-enhanced locations to the horrible switch to fake backlot from grand outdoors in both sequels.


Anyway, keep in mind a mine car jumping the tracks to land squarely on ... the tracks after a leap of 400 feet, or a wingless plane passing a car inside a tunnel, or an inflatable raft falling from a plane, careening down a mountain, falling over a cliff and landing in a river without any harm to the occupants.


I can't believe I'm defending this crap. Actually, I hate it. But it's nothing new in Indy World. Complaints at this point are rather meaningless.



If you'd hoped for a return to the comparatively gritty realism of Raiders of the Lost Ark, you haven't been paying attention to the talent arcs of Steven Spielberg and George Lucas.

[flippyshark]

Anyway, keep in mind a mine car jumping the tracks to land squarely on ... the tracks after a leap of 400 feet, or a wingless plane passing a car inside a tunnel, or an inflatable raft falling from a plane, careening down a mountain, falling over a cliff and landing in a river without any harm to the occupants.


Yeah, all of those things made me roll my eyes. I'm not especially complaining about the presence of such silliness in the current Indy. I've learned to expect it. But if a Raiders-gritty style film did come along, oh what a happy boy I'd be. If Indy four had been that movie, my opinion wouldn't be "pleasant diversion," it would be "I am so happy to be alive right now." (That's how Raiders made me feel.) May never happen again, I know.

[BarTopDancer]

I loved it.

Replying to GCs original spoiler:

Does the torch get passed to Mutt? Almost, but no. I actually liked that part a lot. Nice try, dinglecheese, start your own series of adventure movies.

I actually said "oh hell no", and was super happy that it was averted.

Oh and

Harrison Ford is HOT!!!!!!!

[Promo-Man]

Went today. I wanted to be entertained and I was. I enjoyed it

[innerSpaceman]

But if a Raiders-gritty style film did come along, oh what a happy boy I'd be. If Indy four had been that movie, my opinion wouldn't be "pleasant diversion," it would be "I am so happy to be alive right now." (That's how Raiders made me feel.) May never happen again, I know.

Well, I felt happy to be alive after that first screening of Indy 4. It was no Raiders of the Lost Ark, but I felt pleased with the spirit of the proceedings, and I've since become disenchanted with most of the details.

I've a feeling this one will go down with The Last Crusade, or even Return of the Jedi, with films I was cheered greatly by in spirit when I first saw them ... but now don't care to watch.




Well ... if anything .... a third so-so Indiana Jones film just more firmly fixes Raiders of the Lost Ark in the highest heights of the cinema firmament.

:cool:




* * * * * *

Hey, considering how many LoT swankers are seeing Indy 4 in 4 hours, can we stop using spoiler tags as of tonight????

[Gemini Cricket]

...can we stop using spoiler tags as of tonight????
I see no problem with that.
Although, I guess the title of the thread should indicate that there are unmarked spoilers within...

[scaeagles]

I was bored through most of it when I wen tonight. After the boredom passed I was just embarrassed for those involved with it.

I'm not a picky movie goer. That was aweful.

[Tref]

I saw Indy to-day at the Americana in Glendale. They had the film on so many screens that there was no wait. (It was playing on four screens across the street at a competing cinema, as well.)

I enjoyed the movie, though there were so many missed opportunities and not a single solid kick ass scene, which is sad. I mean, isn't this from the same guy who directed Minority Report? Oh well, Indy was still a lot of fun even if it wasn't totally satisfying. The best summer movie is still, Iron Man.

Tref sez, check it out.

[Moonliner]

I went in fully Ism'ed in that I was expecting Road Runner type gags....

Still. WTF? A nuclear blast knocks him a mile downrange? Come on....

The whole FBI / Fired / Mccarthyism story line was pointless and lead nowhere.

So were talking the Inter-dimensional version of the peach corps. Ahh yeah.

Why exactly did they fry the brain of the person that returned the skull?

If all 13 is all that's needed to bring these guys to life, how did one get stolen in the first place?

Still it did keep true to the Indy motto. Lose the big prize and lay waist to everything else of any historical significance.

I did like the wholesale slaughter of the natives. That's a bit of a rarity in our PC world. The ants were kind of fun too.

If this was the script they waited ten year for I would be truly afraid to read what was rejected.

[innerSpaceman]

Yes, those umpteen rejected drafts were either some of the worst film scripts ever written .... or among them lies the most brilliant Indiana Jones film ever conceived - - alas rejected by the likes of talentless Lucas.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm guessing that some of the lines from the movie where they talked about things Indy did in the intervening time were rejected script ideas.

I haven't read this thread, so I'm sure I'll be repeating stuff but:

Overall, I feel about the same about this one as I felt about Last Crusade. Maybe even liked it a little less. It was fun, definitely better than the disaster it could have been. But they lost me at interdimensional aliens. Bleh.

And a whole host of other issues of course. After Steve reminded me of the ToD raft ride, I conceded to give the triple waterfall thing a pass, but jeep landing on open-topped duck? Fridge ride? Terrible terrible terrible.

And I know they tried to give themselves an out by stressing that it wasn't really "magnetism" (crystals and gold aren't magnetic afterall), but the utter inconsistency was beyond bad. I mean, throw the gunpowder in the air and it immediately gets pulled through the air. So, umm, why weren't the bullets being pulled the moment they walked in there? The magnetism only seemed to work when people were paying attention to it. Lame.

Other than that, good opening scene. I liked the relationships, through the movie, I liked the banter, I liked the characters. I liked some of the action, but the jungle car scene was waaay to drawn out, which just gave plenty of opportunity for the rubbery cgi to stick out like a sore thumb.

So yeah, luke warm. Enjoyable. Flawed.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I cheered at the use of the "Wilhelm."

I think I liked this movie more than I thought I did when I left the theater.

[Ghoulish Delight]

But wait, there's more:

I wanted to mention that I think the reason the fridge thing bugs me so much was that the whole scene was 100% superfluous. Remove it from the movie and it affects nothing. Not that I'm against superfluous scenes for the sake of visual gaggery (e.g., I liked the rocket sled scene), but to have a superfluous scene that ends in an absolutely ludicrous moment? Vomit.

And speaking of the rocket sled scene, anyone else notice that they get launched down the track on the rocket sled, stop, the two of them stumble off the sled...and then within a few seconds the convoy of cars arrives? How exactly did the convoy of 1950s jeeps catch up to a rocket sled that quickly?! I know that's a pretty minor nit to pick, and compared to other things, it didn't actually really phase me. But c'mon, that's just lame

[tracilicious]

Saw it this afternoon. I liked it. It was fun, it was action-y, it had Harrison Ford.

But some things annoyed me. The Russian accent. Indi's sidekick, Mac. So unnecessary. The prairie dogs.

I liked the waterfall scene. It was fun. I'll see it again, but not in the theater.

[innerSpaceman]

Not that I'm against superfluous scenes...

Spoiler tags are now superflouous, GD. (Hey, can you change the thread title to reflect that?)

[swanie]

I'm taking 2 of the lil' swanies to see it this morning at the Cine Capri. It is the closet thing to Westwood as I can get here in AZ ;).

We finished watching the trilogy last night and it is amazing how great the series was in my mind's eye but as an adult seeing it, I don't know how much I would revere the series as a whole. I still love Raiders, suffered through Temple, (surprisingly) really enjoyed Crusade, and am going into Crystal Skull with as much of an open mind as I can. I think I'm more excited to be taking my kids to see such an iconic character from my childhood than anything. :)

Wish us luck!

swanie

[Ghoulish Delight]

The Russian accent. Yes! It didn't connect until the movie that it was Blanchet, but there were several points where I noticed her slipping into a British accent.

[Not Afraid]

Overall, I was entertained and never bored. But, I had quite a few eye-rolling moments.

Quick bullets without spoilers:

Blanchett's Russian accent failed her at times.
Worst line ever "They were archaeologists"
Tarzan scene soooo lame! Beyond lame!
I would have almost believed anything but ETs
Ants were waaay over the top, but I was happy there were not any Scorpians.
The Holy Grail water must have an effect outside the temple and he must've shared with everyone in this film....they were immortal.
Prarie Dogs were a distraction
Come on - a REFRIGERATOR?Ford does have some of the best facial expressions. I really love his reactions to situations.

Loved the Ark

I miss the days before CGI. Just give me a good film with a FEW good effects. I'd much prefer that over a effect-filled film with a flawed story and endless, too-long action scenes.

[Gemini Cricket]

Saturday - $37 mil
Projected Sunday - $33 mil

Total so far - $126 mil

Movie's budget - $185 mil

[innerSpaceman]

Yep, one of the best things about Raiders is its sparse use of effects, to excellent effect.

After that, the series went hog-wild with effects, with increasingly diminishing returns.




It's interesting what nits people will choose to pick with Indy 4. There are indeed so many to choose from.


I've heard "why didn't Indy use his whip to get out of the (non)quick sand?" Um, he didn't have his whip at the time; he'd been disarmed by the Russians.

And I've heard "how can Marion have just driven off the cliff hoping for a tree to break their fall' when she's clearly shown scoping out the cliff and finding the exact spot of the tree. (And by 'clearly,' I mean I finally noticed this on the 3rd viewing.)


Most people are bothered with the Tarzan swinging, some aren't. Just about everyone freaks that he survived a nuclear blast in a flying refrigerator. It never concerned me in the least. When the TV and slip-&-slide water and car-watering hose were all on in the fake town set up for nuclear annihilation ... I had surrealism telegraphed to me quite clearly.


The ants were too big. Three waterfalls were too many.


I can't defend any of this stuff. But there are far larger problems, imo, with a very weak story and underused characters.


If it's just the preposterous nits that are bothersome, I think the movie is pretty good.

[katiesue]

Maddy's reivew "totally awesome dude although I did not understand the plot, but that's just me I don't understand a lot of stuff."

[Ghoulish Delight]

And I've heard "how can Marion have just driven off the cliff hoping for a tree to break their fall' when she's clearly shown scoping out the cliff and finding the exact spot of the tree. (And by 'clearly,' I mean I finally noticed this on the 3rd viewing.)
I noticed her scoping it out, but only because I had caught the "I'm going to drive off it" in the previews so I was aware of it.

If it's just the preposterous nits that are bothersome, I think the movie is pretty good.I disagree. You've correctly pointed out that the other movies have several of the same flaws, so I think it's a sign of the overall weakness of the movie that people are complaining about the little nits. To me it says that it didn't sufficiently entertain enough to distract from those nits.

[Not Afraid]

I was distracted many times by the nits. It took me out of the film and into eye-rolling.

I noticed Marion scoping out the clif, so it didn't surprise me that she knew where the tree was. The fact that that actually worked was the unbelievable part. And the tree swinging back up to cause little CGI people to fall made be cringe.

[Gemini Cricket]

It's interesting what nits people will choose to pick with Indy 4. There are indeed so many to choose from.


I've heard "why didn't Indy use his whip to get out of the (non)quick sand?" Um, he didn't have his whip at the time; he'd been disarmed by the Russians.

And I've heard "how can Marion have just driven off the cliff hoping for a tree to break their fall' when she's clearly shown scoping out the cliff and finding the exact spot of the tree. (And by 'clearly,' I mean I finally noticed this on the 3rd viewing.)
...
If it's just the preposterous nits that are bothersome, I think the movie is pretty good.
So, you're saying people shouldn't complain? The Abbie Hoffman of the LoT wants us me to be as silent as a Geisha and not point out anything that bugs me? Puh-lease! lol :D

I think it's as fair to point out problems with Spielberg and Lucas films. They used to exceed our expectations, why not now? I find it just as fair as pointing out f-ups Disney has been doing for the last 8 years or so.

Nitpicks or not, I think it is possible to make a movie fool proof.

Yes, no whip. But a belt, a leather jacket... A man resourceful enough to pull the whole "gimme your bullets" technique of finding a needle in a haystack at the Area 51 warehouse surely could have unbuckled his own belt.

The drive off the cliff, land on tree branch, tree branch lowers duck into the water, tree branch slams and kills several Russians sequence was dumb. No matter if it was set up before or not. Yikes. A close up of Blanchett saying, "You're despicable!" would have rounded it off all nicely. Or maybe Irina holding up a sign that said "Yipes" as she looks at the camera with a panicked look?

:D

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Mutt combs his hair, that means he's cool

Really? Because I took that to mean that he wasn’t cool whatsoever. That he thinks he’s cool, but as we know, he’s nothing compared to Indy in his prime. It seemed to me that we were supposed to be looking at him through Indy’s eyes, and in doing that, he came across as some kid who thought a lot of himself, and who had no idea what majesty and danger the ancient world held. And this is even before he screamed like a ninny in the graveyard. So, actually, Mutt didn’t bother me at all, and then I developed an affection for him grew once it became clear (though I’d suspected) that he was the fruit of the Marion/Indy loins.

The skull was a really obvious telegraph to the Alien climax. Well, that and the fact that the opening sequence involved a recovery of an alien's body.


It was so obvious, in fact, that I thought we were totally in red-herring territory. Because, I thought to myself, Spielberg wouldn’t be going back to that again, right? So I went merrily on my way to enjoy the film – which I did – as a big, silly, summer movie. Yes, yes, so much action was implausible. Yes, yes, a lot of CGI. Yes, yes, can’t recreate the magic of Raiders. (Which, by the way, I think has a lot to do with having limitations. Limitations, be they technological, budgetary, or otherwise, often makes for a more passionate and ‘real’ work of film art. Stunts are chancy and gritty, so are sets… when you have money, you forget that chancy and gritty are what make your adventure move.) But, you know, I went in expecting that, so I was along for the ride.

It was a fun romp. I loved the graveyard scene, the dry sand (and that terrible snake rope – I actually screamed. By the way, Sophie, who has worked as a lab tech, said that a snake once bent a needle when she was trying to inject it – so maybe they did research it.)

I was particularly happy when Marion came along. She I love her feisty nature, and I thought it was believable that they were still in love after all these years. I found myself caring about their quirky little nuke-you-lar family, and that’s what carried me right up until it became clear that alien-red-herring wasn’t being served for dinner.

And then I was lost. As I told some people last night, I have some angst built up from AI, which fascinated me with its terrible, terrible badness. (My college paper about it was talking about the truly useless and un-Kubrickian use of aliens.) It’s his go-to ex-machina, and I wish he hadn’t gone that way.
I was pulled out right of the movie right on through the wedding finale, by which point I was looking at the seams. (Wow, what glowy backlit halos, what pasted-on grins. Are we in The Muppets Take Manhattan now?) But the excellent pass-the-hat gag made me very happy at the end, and I came out feeling like was entertained plenty.

[Not Afraid]

I was disappointed that Indy and Marion were married at the end. It seemed so unsatisfying and contrived for something that should have been a joyous moment. However, the hat gag was a good one.

[Ghoulish Delight]

What bugged me about the hair combing thing was that it seemed to be a gimmick-for-gimmick-replacement pattern. Whip->Knife. Hat->Comb.

[Gemini Cricket]

Brown leather jacket -> black leather jacket


What made me laugh more than the hair combing was the Brando hat he wore when we first saw him. Oy.

[€uroMeinke]

What I liked about the comb thing was it was used as a moment of recovery - his uncoolness or embarrassing moment happens and the comb comes out as if to say, "I didn't mean it, I was just fixing my hair"

I was also delighted that they went to Peru for personal reasons - seeing Cuzco and Iquitos on the map made me squee and feel a personal connection to this fictitious character and his adventures.

[tracilicious]

I'm still pissed about Mac's character. I was so annoyed in the beginning that Indi had a sidekick. Even moreso when we were supposed to believe that they had a long history as a team. But he was so annoying, and his character was useless. I didn't understand his motivation when he ditched the alien scene and started hunting for treasure and I couldn't have cared less when he flew off into the void. But why would he want to fly into the void? No clue! Asshole.

[BarTopDancer]

I thought the hair combing turned into a nervous habit.

I completely loved it, hokiness and all. It's kinda like 24, you have to suspend reality. In 24 land there is never traffic. In Indy land carboats can survive 3 giant waterfalls.

I also figured that once all the knowledge was transfered from the alien she saw the truth and could no longer be of this world.

[Gemini Cricket]

The moral of the story: the more you know, the more likely it is that your eyes and skull will burn.

[Boss Radio]

When one considers the source material - the cliffhanger serials of the 30s, 40s and 50s - and really examines the different levels of homage both to the serials, and to itself, the film succeeds on almost every level.

Pocorn entertainment that defies every known law of gravity, physics and plausability is exactly that: entertainment.

Gene Autry battled aliens in a serial. Sherlock Holmes outsmarted Nazis, as did Batman. These movies (and Star Wars before Lucas convoluted it beyond recognition) share more in common with Flash Gordon, The Lost City, The Phantom Empire, The Lone Ranger, Frank Buck's Bring Em Back Alive, Spy Smasher, and Zombies of the Stratosphere then they do with Iron Man. As far as Raiders comparisons go, both Star Wars (77) and Raiders succeed in their first chapters because they were both "new" and both offered strong character development, which laid the groundwork for future sequels.



For me, the movie hit all of my checkpoints of greatness:

Atomic test
Area 51
Red Menace
Flying Saucer
Ancient Astronauts
Hot chick villain
Rock n' Roll youth culture
Fonzie

I entered the picture with low expectations, this being the post Phantom Menace era, and was happy.

Was it perfect? No.
Was it fun? Yes.

I could have done without the Close Encounters alien at the end, but other than that and the Tarzan/Jungle Book sequence, I was cool with it.

Since they did have a Close Encounters-shaped alien, Richard Dreyfuss should have poked his head out of the flying saucer and said "Come on, already! Let's get back to that other movie!"

[CoasterMatt]

I had a whole lotta buncha fun.

I'll be seeing it again in a few days.

[tracilicious]

But why is nobody else pissed about Mac?

[katiesue]

What about the motorcycle? Is it still somewhere in Peru? And why Mutt? Was it the dogs name?

[innerSpaceman]

I'm not familiar enough with serials to know how over the top they go in the physics-defiance department .... but I'm willing to give the Indy series the benefit of some doubt because of my ignorance of the genre.


... and because I am tickled by other stuff that I assume and/or recognize from the B-movie / Serial genre, such as the Scientist Gone Native/Madman. For this film set in the 50's, I loved the incorporation of the Commie Red Menace, the Greaser/College Jock rivalry, the Atomic Bomb and, frankly, if Aliens and Flying Saucers had not been the paranormal element of this Indy romp, I would have been disappointed with the thematic exclusion. It may be Spielberg's over-used element, but if the shoe fits ...



Hey, I certainly don't mean to say we shouldn't nit-complain. It's perfectly valid. I just think there are bigger fish to fry in the problem department (though GD linked it nicely when he observed that if you're noticing lots of nits, you're likely not being sufficiently entertained).


And, I guess I'm repeating myself here, but the nits of implausible or impossible physicality are elements long established for this series decades ago ... when I complained about them mightily. I'm not here to deny anyone the same pleasure ... but it does seem a little hollow to be expecting gravity to pull downwards at this point.


Still ... if it pulls you out of the movie, it pulls you out.


Maybe I've complained so much about Indy's physics-bending tomfoolery that I'm over it. Certainly, in this last film, the higher over the top they went ... the less I minded it. I didn't blink an eye at the flying atomic refrigerator of womblike safety. Smaller touches like the Mutt's effortless monkey-vine swinging bothered me more.


(BTW ... did anyone think his name was "Mud?" I didn't notice it was Mutt till the end credits ... which is too bad, since that's a great joke.)


Anyway, though I found it hackneyed even as it happened ... I found myself crying at Indy and Marion's wedding! And I continued to cry through a bit of the credits when I realized I was entertained enormously and that the movie didn't completely suck .... which is all I ever hoped for.



I almost wished I'd left it after that first amazing screening. But it's good to come down to earth and recognize it as a seriously flawed film.

It's still my second favorite in a series of 3 very, very flawed films ... and one absolutely perfect movie.

[mousepod]

There were aliens in A.I.?

[Boss Radio]

I thought his name was Mud until I saw "Mutt" embroidered on his leather jacket in an apparent homage to Laverne De Fazio.

[Ghoulish Delight]

There were aliens in A.I.?
You must have left when the movie ended.

Traci, I can't work up enough emotion about Mac to be pissed.

Count me amongst those that thought it was "Mud". Which seemed pretty dumb. But now that I know it's "Mutt" I wish it were "Mud". So now we've got knife, comb, black jacket, chose a dog's name. Vomit.

[CoasterMatt]

I thought Mac was just a p.o.s. - I think he needed a more visceral, gruesome death.

[lashbear]

OK, the lashpair verdict is in.

We thought it was hugely entertaining. We will be seeing it again.

Main concerns:

Who reset the sand in the stairwell after the previous band of conquistadores?
How come the "magnitism" works through a lead-lined box in an huge warehouse, but when you cover it with a hessian bag you can hold it near guns, jeeps etc without a problem. They should have stored it in the warehouse in a hessian bag, then nobody would have found it.
That fridge landed real hard. BAM!!!! Bounce bounce bounce. No way Indy survived that......and the champagne and cheeseboard during the movie were a nice touch. I like Gold Class (http://www.greaterunion.com.au/goldclass/)

[Boss Radio]

I liked how Mac channeled Daffy Duck in the treasure room (Mine! Mine!) and was consistently drawn to the gaudy costume jewelry that belonged to the ancient pre-Mayan equivalent of Mrs. Roper, therefore proving that he had poor fashion sense as well as a heart of evil, and thus deserved to be vacuumed to death by E.T. and co.

[flippyshark]

Seeing as how the overhead lamps in the warehouse started drifting toward the big lead case as soon as it was moved, shouldn't all of those same lamps have been "pointing" in the direction of the crate to begin with?

Why yes, Boss Radio, while Mac was busily dashing through the treasure room, I thought of Daffy Duck saying,"I may be a coward, but I'm a greeeedy coward!"

[Boss Radio]

Open Sarsaparilla?

[CoasterMatt]

They were just missing "HASSAN CHOP!!"

[mousepod]

There were no aliens in A.I.

The robots at the end of that movie behaved in a way that provided a touching and thoughtful conclusion to that underrated film.

I still have no idea what the aliens (or interdimensional beings) were doing at the end of Indy 4.

[swanie]

Indy tickets $22.50
Movie Snacks $15.50
Getting to hum the Indy theme with two very excited kids as the credits rolled....PRICELESS

:D

Overall the film had its share of flaws, but we had a ton of fun. This film will always stand out to me for being the one that I was able to share with my girls. They loved it and it was a blast being able to see them watch it with the same awe that I did as a kid. :)

swanie

[RStar]

There were no aliens in A.I.

Weren't those aliens that dug the child robot out of the ice and brough his mother back for one day?


I loved the Indy movie. I found very little fault with it (yes, he would have never survived the fridge ride or the door should have popped open on the first impact, but other than that...).

[mousepod]

Weren't those aliens that dug the child robot out of the ice and brough his mother back for one day?

Nope. Robots. That's the point of the ending. It was apparently in Kubrick's original draft, as well.

[Alex]

One thing that has bugged me more than most is that they went out of the way to say that Indy had run out on Marion just a couple weeks before their wedding. And then don't in any way explain why.

Considering that, it seems to me that Marion mooned over Indy just a bit too easily.


What bugged me about the hair combing thing was that it seemed to be a gimmick-for-gimmick-replacement pattern. Whip->Knife. Hat->Comb.

In Indy 6 there the first scene will be a flashback to Mutt's youth. Played by Angus T. Jones there'll be a key scene where he escapes from baddies only by having perfectly combed hair and then stabbing them with a well wielded knife.

On the quirk for quirk exchange I was glad that they didn't give him an animal phobia a la snakes and Indy or rats and Connery.

I swear that when we first saw the ants I leaned over to Lani and whispered the Mutt would be deathly afraid of insects. So, I'm glad that Spielberg and company did pass up one obvious choice.

[Alex]

(BTW ... did anyone think his name was "Mud?" I didn't notice it was Mutt till the end credits ... which is too bad, since that's a great joke.)

I mentioned in my MP review that I didn't realize his name was Mutt until I was confirming the spelling of LeBeouf's name when writing the review.


But why is nobody else pissed about Mac?

Not pissed. Just a completely pointless character. He could have been removed from the movie without changing a single thing. However, the broken nose joke was almost enough justification for it.

[tracilicious]

That's true. The one redeeming moment for that character.

[RStar]

Yah, Mac pissed me off too.

And I went in knowing that his name was Mutt only because I saw it in print a couple of times prior to the movie. I suppose as a critic, you don't want to read much info prior to viewing the film, right Alex?

I just wish they would have spent at least two seconds to tell us why MUTT???:rolleyes:

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I think there is something flawed about a movie where multiple people separately come to the same incorrect assumption about the plot. All of these years and I (and numerous others with whom I've discussed the film) never knew that there were no aliens in AI. Clearly some sort of clearer dialogue, and design that does not LOOK alien, should have prevented this confusion. Though I still wish it ended at the feet of the Blue Fairy.

Damn you, Jesse, I am going to have to watch AI again.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I loved AI, I understood that the "aliens" were some version of AI millenium into the future. I think it's a beautiful movie, and it makes me cry. I remember walking out of the theater and saying, "This movie will be one that is better appreciated in retrospect."

AI viewing on the biggie TV in our living room? Jesse can vouch for our speakers! :D

[lashbear]

Yah, Mac pissed me off too.

And I went in knowing that his name was Mutt only because I saw it in print a couple of times prior to the movie. I suppose as a critic, you don't want to read much info prior to viewing the film, right Alex?

I just wish they would have spent at least two seconds to tell us why MUTT???:rolleyes:
It's the running In-joke

Indiana was the name of Indy's dog.
Willie was the name of Spielberg's dog.
Mutt is a name for a dog with multiple lineage....

Not the sort of thing explainable in the movie.

[MouseWife]

That's right, Lash.

Also, we did not learn the 'meaning' of Indiana until Connery came along, right? Which installment was that?

The things that were unbelievable, well, it is Indi. I loved the things they used in it to reflect with the time/place.

I had heard a review where they didn't care for the relationship between Indi and Marion. Well, that is how his relationships are, cheesy. And, I think the biggest problem with her, which I do not find a problem but I think that it may have looked odd, was because she is 25 years older than she was and such girlie behaviour may have seemed more cheesy. It was cute.

Yeah, they really didn't elaborate about why Indi left but he did say that he just knew it wouldn't work, and when she said they didn't talk about it he said it would only lead to another argument and that he never won them..

I really enjoyed it. What was really cool was sitting there and realizing that I was watching an Indy movie on the big screen again after all of those years!

And, prior to the movie beginning, the theater was noisy. I was getting annoyed because the people who were the loudest sounded like people who would heckle and just make noise. During the movie, it was great, none of that.

Respect. I guess.

{I hope in my late posting I didn't cover something someone else did...}

[lashbear]

That's right, Lash.

Also, we did not learn the 'meaning' of Indiana until Connery came along, right? Which installment was that?
Indy & the [second-]Last Crusade :D

I liked seeing Marion again, and I'm glad they got Married. Now Mutt will have to change his name to Pedigree.

[innerSpaceman]

Hahahaha! Yeah, even though most people don't know about the filmmakers' dogs, the fact that Indy was named for the family dog in the Jones family is explained in the series ... and therefore legit to riff on with humor. A missed opportunity, imo. If they were going to salute Laverne, Mutt should have had a HUGE "M" on the jacket .... because, as it was, I didn't notice it.



And no matter what .... I'm not going to rewatch AI. It is NOT a film with a reputation that has improved with time .... unless you are referring to some of the time spans portrayed in A.I.

[CoasterMatt]

What about the motorcycle? Is it still somewhere in Peru?
GC found it

[flippyshark]

Kubrick fan that I am, I've still not gotten around to AI. (And how fun that it's become such a lively side topic on this thread without really getting in the way.)

Not long ago, I was at the home of HTHBellcaptain, and we were watching documentary footage of the Nevada a-bomb tests, complete with creepy mannequins and furnished houses. I remembered thinking that this was something that belonged in a movie somewhere, and whattya know, there it showed up, in the unlikeliest of releases. I admit this sequence made me smile, silly though it was.

[Alex]

I actually liked AI the first time I saw it (though I've never watched it a second time).

[Chernabog]

Jeepers! This thread is way too long for me to consume it all right now and extrapolate.

However --

I just got out of the movie and I will from this point on, point blank refuse to watch any other visual medium (film, video game, television show, anything) that has the name "George Lucas" attached to it.

This was, by far, the worst of the Indy movies.

I mean, I wasn't outright BORED by the picture (except at the beginning.... too much freaking exposition). But it was truly cringe-worthy (I'm pretty much in complete agreement with NA's assessment of what was totally awful in the movie so I won't reiterate). At the end, all I could think was, that's IT? Where was the plot? How could Indy figure out this ridiculous BS so quickly in a manner that makes the old Batman shows look intelligent in comparison? And why did they purposefully make every single set look like a stage play of Indiana Jones? I've never seen a movie before and thought "oh, there's the wall at the end of the soundstage that the backdrop is painted onto". What awful special effects. What awful lighting and camera work on Harrison Ford, who they keep showing in this bizarre soft focus like he was Lucille Ball in Auntie Mame.

Suspension of disbelief is one thing, but at least in the other films you felt that at least one or more of the characters was in danger (even if Indy would make it through alright). In Temple of Doom (which I did enjoy greatly) there was that implausible raft sequence, sure. But not EVERY SINGLE STUNT IN THE ENTIRE FILM was like -- oh if that happened, they'd all die. Crystal Skull crossed a line there in every single action sequence to a point where every single good character was completely and totally indestructible. "Oh give me a freaking break!" can be a reaction to a few stunts, of course, but not every one, before the movie goes into complete suckage.

Even the trailers before the movie -- that new CGI Star Wars thing looks awful. People (including me) booed and groaned audibly in the theatre. So I refuse. I cannot give Lucas the Hutt any more of my money, not ever again. He's made me feel horrible about one of my all-time favorite series. He makes movies that actually diminish the quality of far superior films in the same series. For the second time.

[Morrigoon]

Well, I thought it was cute.

Maybe I was mentally prepared for it after the "expect cartoon action" reviews. Because I enjoyed it.

Oh, and Mutt DID react to the scorpions, Alex. Not a phobia, per se, but he did fear something.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Sans spoiler tags, per above posts.



The worst thing about Mac is that his constant greedy cowardice makes Indy look like an idiot for being his friend for years. Was he really able to hide his evilness for that long, until this moment when he let it all hang out? :rolleyes:

I thought the kid's name was Mud too, meaning I missed out on the joke until days later. Grr.

One thing that bugs me when people say "I hate CG, bring back traditional filmmaking" is that there are plenty of movies that used CG for good, not evil. The Matrix and Jurassic Park immediately come to mind. CG is a tool, and it can be gaudy or gritty, depending on who wields it.

That said, there wasn't a single stunt in this movie that tops Indy being dragged behind a car in the original. I loved the ants scene, that was classic.

I did like Mutt's character. I thought his attempts at a tough guy front were balanced enough to make him seem vulnerable and yet streetwise. I thought Shia did a great job and he's make a great Indy. (yes I said it)

HOWEVER - they have dug themselves a hole. There cannot be an Indy later than the late 50's, it just doesn't make sense with the shifts in our culture. All the mentions of Indy's exploits in the last 18 years only made me feel like I missed out. Where are THOSE movies? They waited too long, and now we get old Indy and young new Indy but at very tail end of the era when Indy works. Bastards.

The only way out is to do what they did with Superman Returns, with a pinch of Casino Royale. Don't make "sequels" per se. Take Mutt and send him back in time to 1935. Don't explain it, just start over. It's the same character but different, it's the same time but different, alternate universe style. Otherwise, it's not going to work (and even then it won't work because Spielberg and Lucas will be involved).



The moral of the Indy series is that everyone is right - Jews, Christians, voodoo worshippers, and rednecks who claim to have been anally probed. All magic is real, all gods coexist, including the god of "we couldn't have invented this, it must have been godly aliens". Indy is equal opportunity. I kinda like that.

[innerSpaceman]

He makes movies that actually diminish the quality of far superior films in the same series. For the second time.
See, I just don't get how that's possible. Bad Indy films simply point out what's great about great Indy films (of which there is one). I don't see how making a lousy film does anything but highlight the missing quality that was once (and only once) there.



* * * *

By way, the purpose of the Mac character was that a constantly double-crossing traitor pal can have Indy's reversals of fortune turn on a dime, without any story effort whatsoever. It's lazy, but it has a purpose.


* * * *

Oh, I've neglected to mention my favorite bit. Believe it or not, it's a sound effect. At the start of the Peruvian grave-robbing scene, they reprise the distinctive "Yaquoia" bird sound from the Peru beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Not only is it a wonderfully distinctive sound that is a great Easter Egg .... it was a very significant sound for Steven Spielberg. Though he trusted Ben Burtt to do the sound work on Raiders due to his Star Wars brilliance, Spielberg was only convinced his film was in fantastic sonic hands once he heard the bird sound that transformed his Hawaii footage to an evocative South American jungle.

[flippyshark]

The moral of the Indy series is that everyone is right - Jews, Christians, voodoo worshippers, and rednecks who claim to have been anally probed. All magic is real, all gods coexist, including the god of "we couldn't have invented this, it must have been godly aliens". Indy is equal opportunity. I kinda like that.

Exactly! I had similar fleeting thoughts while watching. Everything is true! I've met people who essentially held that very view. There isn't a single mystical, religious or tabloid notion that isn't immediately embraced. One of my current co-workers fits this description, and he is a Born Again Christian. I mentioned to him once that he seemed poly-theistic to me. He basically said, well, there's only one God (or trinity), and all the rest are lesser supernatural beings. I don't believe in any of the above myself, but I did tell him that I would love to be a fly on the wall at a celestial "Meeting of the Gods." Currently, they might be discussing Indy 4, and how that Lucas fellow is on to them.

[Ponine]

I'm confused as to how so many people missed that his name was "Mutt".
I was right there on his jacket, and to whomever asked why didnt we get an explanation, he offered it himself.
Because he picked it.
He had already pieced together for us that he was a half breed sort of guy. THat his father left, he didnt really fit in.

I chuckled to find that so many felt the aliens looked like ET. thats what my nine year old said. Personally, I didnt feel that way. I kept thinking Predator.

I loved the prairie dogs. But, we knew I would. For the young people I saw the movie with, it was a good way to ease them in.

Mac.. whatever.. he built story, move on. I hated him.

Ox... god bless John Hurt... I love him.
Much like Jim Broadbent.

The ants... interesting effect. Didnt phase me in the least.
The monkeys? blegh.

For me, the best moments?
"I have a bad feeling about this" garnered applause in my theatre.
and the first "cave" , "tomb"
yeah, okay, the sand on the steps was fine. I let that go. Wind and all that rot.
but I liked that scene.

[Alex]

Why would he feel like a mutt? Up until the reveal he thought his dad was an RAF pilot that died during the war (if I'm remembering that correctly).

I am only bothered by the prairie dogs in hindsight. Before I knew they weren't an anomaly but rather a harbinger of the bad CGI to come.

I agree that all of the previous Indy's, even the first one, had cartoonish effects and stunts. But want to reiterate (and echo Chernabog) that this time around it felt like EVERY stunt and action sequence was stupidly over the top and inflated by (surprisingly poor) CGI.

Another thing that has been percolating for me is that the movie suffers (and this isn't fair to it, really, but remains so) from feeling like it is no longer trailblazing but simply copying its own imitators. That is no longer a riff on a bygone style of movie making but instead a riff on The Mummy and National Treasure and such things. This was brought home when I saw the ending of Crystal Skull called a mash-up of X-Files and The Mummy Returns.

With the first three Indiana Jones movies, even when they weren't sterling works of craft I still felt like they were defining themselves and a genre. I didn't feel that at all this time. Is that fair to the movie as a standalone object? No, but then it isn't like it is being presented as a standalone object
but rather a segment in a generations spanning adventure. So I don't really feel bad for considering it within that larger context.

[Ponine]

He did say that, later. But he also knew he didnt have a father anymore, and had used Oxley as a father figure.

But I dont think I so much meant that he was a mutt in the sense of mixed breed.

He knew he wasnt the IN crowd.
But either way, he said he picked it. And questioned why Indy might think it a poor choice.

However, this was MY interpretation.

[Morrigoon]

iSm: what Cherny's getting at with the "diminish the quality" remark can be summed up by looking at what the prequel storylines did to diminish the character of Darth Vader in Star Wars Episodes 4-6. Vader was the ultimate evil, and we relished that. Now that he's just a crybaby who missed his mommy, not so much.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm in agreement with everyone who thinks Lucas should throw in the towel. I'm also thinking Spielberg should as well in regards to making any more movies based on his past movies. If there ever is an E.T. II, I would be very sad.

I was listening to a summary of the animated Clone Wars film on NPR last night in NA's car. Yoda's quote in the clip went something like this, "Jabba the Hutt's son has been kidnapped." It made me laugh. Close the door on the whole Star Wars thing now, Georgie.

[innerSpaceman]

iSm: what Cherny's getting at with the "diminish the quality" remark can be summed up by looking at what the prequel storylines did to diminish the character of Darth Vader in Star Wars Episodes 4-6.
Ok, but how does the craptasticness of Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back (where he's a COMPLETE CARTOON CHARACTER, btw) go back in time to diminsh his badassedness in Star Wars? I think the same can be asked of the lametard prequels. They may depict a previous chronology, but they don't really reach back in time to decrease the quality of earlier-produced films.

Similarly, it's not fair at all to say that Indy 4 is derivative of movies that were derivative of Raiders of the Lost Ark.


Um, by the way, there was no cartoon action in Raiders of the sort on display in every one of the subsequent Indy movies. Though his lashing himself to the submarine periscope may have been preposterous (and, btw, was not even shown in the film), it was not a cartoon action stunt that Indy couldn't have survived.


EVERYTHING in Raiders was reminicent of graphic design comics and certainly reminiscent of Saturday-morning serial action ... but it was NOT cartoony on the order of Road Runner in the least.

That changed with the first sequel (a mismatching prequel) ... and while I'll admit Indy 4 brings cartoonism to the fore as never before, it's simply continuing the trajectory unfortunately established by its predecessors.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ok, but how does the craptasticness of Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back (where he's a COMPLETE CARTOON CHARACTER, btw) go back in time to diminsh his badassedness in Star Wars? I think the same can be asked of the lametard prequels. They may depict a previous chronology, but they don't really reach back in time to decrease the quality of earlier-produced films.
The "diminishes previous versions/episodes" argument is all about audience reception and how future viewers will perceive it. When you really really like a movie or series of movies, especially one that had the kind of profound effect on movie making and storytelling that Lucas and Speilberg used to be capable of, you hope that they become classics and continue to positively influence movie making and movie appreciating audiences. When a remake or sequel comes out that A) you think is vastly inferior and B) despite being inferior is popular enough to replace the original in the minds of the general movie audience, it can definitely dilute the future impact of the original.

If, in 10 years, the icon of Indiana Jones is a death-defying fridge instead of escaping a boulder via fancy whip-handling skills, then it's definitely changed the influence the Indy franchise has on our culture. While you may still enjoy the originals, you can't deny that it alters how the originals are perceived going forward. Whether it's for the better, for the worse, or a wash remains to be seen, but I do believe that a bad sequel has the power to hurt the perception of the original.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

To answer Ponine - I thought his name was Mud because it sounded like he said Mud. I did not notice his jacket.

[Ponine]

Ah. This makes sense.
next time, sit in the back row under the speakers to avoid drunk teenagers. Sound, is not an issue. :rolleyes:

[Moonliner]

The only way out is to do what they did with Superman Returns, with a pinch of Casino Royale. Don't make "sequels" per se. Take Mutt and send him back in time to 1935. Don't explain it, just start over. It's the same character but different, it's the same time but different, alternate universe style. Otherwise, it's not going to work (and even then it won't work because Spielberg and Lucas will be involved).


Oh pleeezzee! The only way that would work is if there was some sort of inter-dimensional rift or trans-dimensional ship hanging around and there is no way.... Errr....

Oh. Please God no.

Still I don't know why you would say that about the series not working:

Indiana Jones and the 18 min gap.

Indiana Jones and the Grassy Knoll

Indiana Jones: Tunguska

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I loved it. I will probably love watching it again. Despite its flaws (and I agreed with the bulk of ism's assessment of those flaws), I enjoyed it immensely. Whatever The Temple of Doom had going for it (Short Round!), the story didn't interest me that much and I HATED Kate Capshaw. And I didn't hate her just because Karen Allen brought moxie to the love interest role and I adored her in Raiders (and Starman - hah!), but that did play a part.

And I really, really enjoyed The Last Crusade, and not just because I love it when Indy fights the Nazis, though I DO love it when Indy fights the Nazis. Heh. I'm pretty sure I enjoyed The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull as much as the 3rd Indy film, and I'm also pretty sure it's because it made me feel like a giddy elementary school kid while watching it. I could have done without some of the CGI effects (Tarzan, to name one), but didn't mind others (the waterfalls). But I loved the plot. I liked that it was made very clear at the beginning that this was the direction they were going to take, so I went with it. And it seemed perfectly tailored for an Indy flick, though I wish they showed less at the end. Too much information.

I especially loved the Red Scare / 50's paranoia sci-fi combo.

No, it cannot touch the goodness Raiders of the Lost Ark. Considering that Raiders might be my favorite movie next to Safety Last!, few movies can for me. But I was happy to have a 4th installment, and wasn't disappointed by what we were given.

[innerSpaceman]

Um, by the way, there was no cartoon action in Raiders of the sort on display in every one of the subsequent Indy movies. ... it was NOT cartoony on the order of Road Runner in the least
I must offer a partial retraction. There was one throw-away gag of total cartoonity in Raiders. During the attack on Indy and Marion in the streets of Cairo, Indy is about to get sword-stabbed, but jumps out of the way just in time ... leaving another atacker to be skewered instead. When they cut back to the two Arabs, it's shown that the stabbing apparently happened so fast that two mangos were also skewered in mid-air.

It's completely Road Runner. Not done to excess in that movie ... but it's there.

I do believe that a bad sequel has the power to hurt the perception of the original.
I used to feel that way as well. But sequels have become so ubiquitous in society ... and along with that I've noticed a general understanding that sequels are usually pale shadows to the great original film which financially spawned them.

So I think the tables have turned. Now I'm of the opinion that crappy sequels serve mostly to highlight the brillance of the film they so poorly reflect.

But I see your point. Both effects are probably happening.

Considering that Raiders might be my favorite movie next to ...
Is it possible I could fall even more in love with EH1812???

[Alex]

I especially loved the Red Scare / 50's paranoia sci-fi combo.

I would have loved to see this exhibited to a greater degree, but after the first 20 minutes did "50's paranoia" ever get even a nod? And same for the red scare. Other than having a Russian accent, there was nothing Russian or Communist about the threat and since the movie quickly moved away from anything resembling modern culture there was no Red Scare stuff either.

But after 10 days of living with this movie in my mind I've pretty thoroughly shed what enjoyment I had while watching it (which barely survived the closing credits anyway) so it is probably best that I just put it in a mental box and forget about it like I have National Treasure 2 (though this was much better than National Treasure 2; which might be like saying that drinking cat pee is much better than eating cat poop).

[€uroMeinke]

Other than having a Russian accent, there was nothing Russian or Communist about the threat and since the movie quickly moved away from anything resembling modern culture there was no Red Scare stuff either.

Well, the thirteen crystal skeletons were referred to as making up a "collective" which I took to imply that they had red sympathies.

[Alex]

Good point. I retract my comments.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't exactly know what the Nazi threat was after the first 10 minutes of Raiders. That's not the best example, because the Nazi threat and how that threat would never be a threat were all wrapped up in the really cool McGuffin that pervaded the movie.

I guess a better example is the Nazis in The Last Crusade. They were a threat because they continued to harass and threaten our heroes, not because they were going to invade Poland, or even because Adolph Hitler might become immortal.


The Russians in Indy 4 were less threatening, but they were still Indy's adversaries. I don't think it was any more necessary for them to be spreading communism along the Amazon than it was for the Nazis in Last Crusade to fill the armoured Tank with deadly gas once Brody and Professer Jones were captively onboard.

[Alex]

No, but the actions by the Nazis in the in those films were placed within a context of why they were a larger threat to society success for them would make them even worse. And Indiana Jones preventing them from getting the object of their desire was given relevance beyond simply the adventure at hand. No, the Nazi threat wasn't explicit throughout the movies but they were implicit and gave things more weight.

While I admit that some attempt was made at accomplishing this at the beginning of Crystal Skull I feel they failed to establish it ("oh, I'm being blacklisted, I guess I'll take a train trip...le sigh") and ultimately it was just two groups of people chasing the same object.

[innerSpaceman]

But by that token, perhaps the adversaries who were the biggest threats were the Thuggies, because they were really nasty to our hero characters, despite having little potential effect on the outside world.

And I think the Nazis in Raiders were shown to be bigger baddies because they were prone to torture Marion Ravenwood. I guess, by extension, that reminded audiences of what butchers the Nazis were. And even though Stalin was arguably a bigger butcher than Hitler, the Nazis just have a much more horrible rep that --- yes, absolutely make them a better movie villain than the Ruskes.

But, being that they had to deal with Indy's age, I think they were wise to fast-forward to the Soviets ... and perhaps it would have been better to make them nastier ... but I think they played to their stereotypes just as "faithfully" as earlier Indy films played to Nazi stereotypes.

In any event, I think it's the threat of danger to the characters we like that makes a villain villainous ... and not so much the danger that group of villains poses to society at large.

I'll admit, Indy 4 comes in dead last by both standards.



But now at least we're getting at weaknesses that I think hold more water than whether the action was believeable.

[€uroMeinke]

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.

[CoasterMatt]

The aliens from Indy 4 are the Sleestaks from Land of the Lost.

[innerSpaceman]

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.

Joking maybe, but that would be awesome. I really think the aliens should have been shown as more of a 50's style threat, much more sinister and scary than the Russians ... who were played mostly for laughs and sex appeal.

Too bad Spielberg or Lucas or both couldn't seem to bring themselves to posit truly vicious and ill-willed aliens. But a 50's-themed Indy adventure calls for that treatment just as validly as did War of the Worlds ... and I wish Spielberg would have caught on to that.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I would have loved to see this exhibited to a greater degree, but after the first 20 minutes did "50's paranoia" ever get even a nod? And same for the red scare. Other than having a Russian accent, there was nothing Russian or Communist about the threat and since the movie quickly moved away from anything resembling modern culture there was no Red Scare stuff either.


I'f they'd delved into it too deeply, I would have been irritated. Cate B's "you'll wake up and be us without even knowing what happened" touched nicely upon Commie phobia, I think. I was pretty punch pleased.

[Alex]

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.

Not quite but there is a short story in last month's Asimov's that is vaguely along those lines.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

And I think the Nazis in Raiders were shown to be bigger baddies because they were prone to torture Marion Ravenwood. I guess, by extension, that reminded audiences of what butchers the Nazis were. This point reminds me of all the stuff in Crusade that alluded to Nazi evil, such as the book burning (which was not only shown, but mentioned by both Henry Jr. and Sr.), and the part where they try to buy off the ruler of the made-up nation where the grail is hidden using gold trinkets "donated by some of Germany's finest families", ie Jews. Both of those bits gave me the shudders as a kid, and was plenty to remind me that this wasn't just about chasing an artifact, but about true evil getting some serious power.

[innerSpaceman]

What a let-down, then, that the power turned out to be you can live forever if you just stay inside this tiny room of a cave in the middle of nowhere.

Since that "rule" was never stated, I prefer to think that Indiana Jones cannot be hurt or killed except by extraordinary means, and so he can survive a nuclear flying refrigerator ride. But, er, since he crossed the seal ... he ages at an alarming rate. By the 70's, he will be a living skeleton.


They don't say how Professor Henry Sr. died, so I'll just imagine he was shot through the heart with a cannon ball at close range and thus could not survive even though equally immortal. Just to be sure, they cremated his remains.

[Ghoulish Delight]

and was plenty to remind me that this wasn't just about chasing an artifact, but about true evil getting some serious power.
Hrmm, actually, they rather explicitly said that wasn't the case. When Indy confronted Elsa about being a Nazi she said, "Are you kidding, they just want to find the grail for bragging rights. I want it for the immortality!"

[Ponine]

I would have loved to see this exhibited to a greater degree, but after the first 20 minutes did "50's paranoia" ever get even a nod? And same for the red scare. Other than having a Russian accent, there was nothing Russian or Communist about the threat and since the movie quickly moved away from anything resembling modern culture there was no Red Scare stuff either.


First let me say, the cat anology... omg.. funny.

I wonder how much of this plot line is on the cutting room floor.
Since we knew why she wanted the crystal skull, yet much of the WHY we had to glean ourselves.
It wasnt laid out. Now, what I would think is that even had they TOLD us straight out, it wouldnt have moved the story along. hence, cut it out, and let us see the Tarzan scene.

What I want to know, was there a REASON we saw the ark?

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

What a let-down, then, that the power turned out to be you can live forever if you just stay inside this tiny room of a cave in the middle of nowhere.

Since that "rule" was never stated, I prefer to think that Indiana Jones cannot be hurt or killed except by extraordinary means, and so he can survive a nuclear flying refrigerator ride. But, er, since he crossed the seal ... he ages at an alarming rate. By the 70's, he will be a living skeleton.


They don't say how Professor Henry Sr. died, so I'll just imagine he was shot through the heart with a cannon ball at close range and thus could not survive even though equally immortal. Just to be sure, they cremated his remains.

I heart you so!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Hrmm, actually, they rather explicitly said that wasn't the case. When Indy confronted Elsa about being a Nazi she said, "Are you kidding, they just want to find the grail for bragging rights. I want it for the immortality!":confused: I found a script (http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/Indiana3.txt) and I thought maybe you were referring to the exchange at the book burning, but it's not there...I dont' remember her saying this.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I know she said it, though I was paraphrasing, I don't recall the exact quote.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I know she said it, though I was paraphrasing, I don't recall the exact quote.

This scene?
Elsa: I believe in the Grail, not the Swastika.
Indiana Jones: You stood up to be counted with the enemies of everything the Grail stands for. Who gives a damn what you believe?
Elsa: You do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elsa: Don't look at me like that. We both wanted the Grail. I would have done anything to get it. You would have done the same.
Indiana Jones: I'm sorry you think so.

And the elder Jones later said this about her:
Professor Henry Jones: Elsa never really believed in the grail. She thought she'd found a prize.
Indiana Jones: And what did you find, Dad?
Professor Henry Jones: Me? Illumination.

[mousepod]

:confused: I found a script (http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/Indiana3.txt) and I thought maybe you were referring to the exchange at the book burning, but it's not there...I dont' remember her saying this.

Yeah... it was Donovan who said:
"Nazis?!-Is that the limit of your vision?! The Nazis want to write themselves into the Grail legend and take on the world. Well, they're welcome. But I want the Grail itself. The cup that gives everlasting life. Hitler can have the world, but he can't take it with him. I'm going to be drinking my own health when he's gone the way of the Dodo."

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Yeah... it was Donovan who said:
"Nazis?!-Is that the limit of your vision?! The Nazis want to write themselves into the Grail legend and take on the world. Well, they're welcome. But I want the Grail itself. The cup that gives everlasting life. Hitler can have the world, but he can't take it with him. I'm going to be drinking my own health when he's gone the way of the Dodo."

I loved a lot of the dialog in that film and only recently read on Wiki that Tom Stoppard provided uncredited rewrites of the script.

[Moonliner]

What a let-down, then, that the power turned out to be you can live forever if you just stay inside this tiny room of a cave in the middle of nowhere.

Since that "rule" was never stated, I prefer to think that Indiana Jones cannot be hurt or killed except by extraordinary means, and so he can survive a nuclear flying refrigerator ride. But, er, since he crossed the seal ... he ages at an alarming rate. By the 70's, he will be a living skeleton.


They don't say how Professor Henry Sr. died, so I'll just imagine he was shot through the heart with a cannon ball at close range and thus could not survive even though equally immortal. Just to be sure, they cremated his remains.-

But it was stated.


You have chosen wisely. But the
Grail cannot pass beyond the
Great Seal. That is the boundary
and the price of immortality.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Grail Knight
You have chosen wisely. But the
Grail cannot pass beyond the
Great Seal. That is the boundary
and the price of immortality.

That's clear enough for me.
That is the boundary of immortality. That is the price of immortality.

[innerSpaceman]

Ok, then how does Indy survive, without a scratch I might add, being nuclear-blast blown in a household refrigerator, with a crash landing of 7 bounces?


AHA! He can't! The Grail Knight was WRONG!!!

[Morrigoon]

What I want to know, was there a REASON we saw the ark?

Couple theories on this:

a) Because it was cool

b) Because that whole warehouse scene was (per Sohrshah) a tribute to the matte painting that had been done for the first movie, which had over 30 seconds straight of screen time, and apparently this was something worth tributing - and the ark was being put away into that warehouse for that scene, so it was appropriate that we realize Indy was in the same warehouse.

I'm at least going with a :)

[Ponine]

I agree with both, truly.

Though I didnt know about B. It just seemed like it was so intentional there might have been a reason I missed.
Like I am sure there was something in the "cave of wonders" worth seeing.

[innerSpaceman]

Um, Hello. The Ark was not necessary to demonstate Indy was in the same warehouse. It was apparent from the first shot inside the building, and everyone recognized it with a happy gasp at every screening I saw.


Referencing the Ark is a new rule for each Indy film after Temple of Doom (there was an Ark reference in Last Crusade as well), to point out how infererior all the sequels are to Raiders of the Lost Ark.




It's the truth. :cool:

[Alex]

Not that it really matters, but could that warehouse really have been the one with the ark? That area was definitely the site of super secret government programs by the early 1950s (the U-2 program was out of there) but did it exist in 1936-7 when it would have been stored by the government?

Edwards Air Force base was founded in 1933 but I"m not finding a founding date for the Nevada Test and Training Range (of which Area 51 is a part).


This is the type of historical inaccuracy (if it is) that I don't really care about. I'm just curious now that I thought about it.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

And this only increases my appreciation of the film.

From boingboing.net, "This crystal skull from the British Museum was once believed to have been ancient Aztec handiwork." (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/05/27/national-geographic-3.html)

Even if it doesn't sound like it increased David Pescovitz's. Heh.

[Moonliner]

Ok, then how does Indy survive, without a scratch I might add, being nuclear-blast blown in a household refrigerator, with a crash landing of 7 bounces?


AHA! He can't! The Grail Knight was WRONG!!!

Aha! Obviously you were not paying close enough attention. That was no ordinary fridge. It was lead lined! So not only was he safe but not even superman could have found him in there.....

Although if pressed, I would have to admit that he never said dad was dead. I believe he said "Lost" which in the Jones family could mean a great many things....

[Moonliner]

And this only increases my appreciation of the film.

From boingboing.net, "This crystal skull from the British Museum was once believed to have been ancient Aztek handiwork." (http:/http://www.boingboing.net/2008/05/27/national-geographic-3.html)

Even if it doesn't sound like it increased David Pescovitz's. Heh.

There is a problem with that link: Here is the correct one (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/05/27/national-geographic-3.html).

[Ponine]

Not that it really matters, but could that warehouse really have been the one with the ark? That area was definitely the site of super secret government programs by the early 1950s (the U-2 program was out of there) but did it exist in 1936-7 when it would have been stored by the government?

Edwards Air Force base was founded in 1933 but I"m not finding a founding date for the Nevada Test and Training Range (of which Area 51 is a part).


This is the type of historical inaccuracy (if it is) that I don't really care about. I'm just curious now that I thought about it.

at which point someone would respond with, they moved it.

[Moonliner]

at which point someone would respond with, they moved it.

I would respond with: The warehouse was there first. Isolated location, low humidity, room to grow, a safe distance from anywhere. The perfect place for a super secret warehouse for super secret stuff. The air force showed up later....

[Alex]

Like I said, not important, just curious.

I still can't find exact dates but it appears the first military installations were build at Groom Lake during WWII abandoned after the war and the super secret stuff didn't begin until the early 1950s.

But yes, that is the beauty of super secret stuff. You can always posit further secrets as yet unrevealed. Though what exactly the government had so much of in 1936 that they'd need to store acres of it in about the most remote possible location I don't know.

Interestingly, I always interpreted the warehouse at the end of Raiders as not some super secret facility but rather a bureaucratic dumping ground. I found this result much more interesting. Not that the government knew what it had and was hiding it and protecting it but rather that it just got lost in the bureaucratic morass of the federal government. Filed away and then never thought of again.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I never pictured it that way either, though I loved having it show up again, albeit re-purposed.


Of course, I pictured Indiana Jones as someone who didn't believe in hocus-pocus or magic in 1936, but sequels proved me wrong.

[Gemini Cricket]

Pssh.
Guess what?
I told my dad to go see Indy 4. I told him that some of Ford's expressions and actions reminded me of him. He saw the movie and agreed. BUT you'll never guess what his new nickname for me is...

:rolleyes: :D

[katiesue]

Interestingly, I always interpreted the warehouse at the end of Raiders as not some super secret facility but rather a bureaucratic dumping ground. I found this result much more interesting. Not that the government knew what it had and was hiding it and protecting it but rather that it just got lost in the bureaucratic morass of the federal government. Filed away and then never thought of again.

That's what I always thought as well. It ended up being just some crate (with no markings) lost in a vast warehouse.

[innerSpaceman]

BUT you'll never guess what his new nickname for me is...

Mutt Fag? Queen Poodle? Natasia Buttfucski???

[Gemini Cricket]

Mutt Fag? Queen Poodle? Natasia Buttfucski???
Close. He calls me Marion now.
:D

He called me "Mutt", you dinglecheese.
:D

[Ponine]

I agree with that assesment, of the original warehouse being a dumping ground.
Lets put it here and forget about it was what I got initially.

[innerSpaceman]

But the Ark crate DID have markings. They made a rather big point of it in Raiders. "TOP SECRET" and some numbers.


(I think "Do Not Open Before The Apocalypse" was on there, too.)

[Gemini Cricket]

I always interpreted the warehouse at the end of Raiders as not some super secret facility but rather a bureaucratic dumping ground.

That's what I saw it as too.
In fact, doesn't Indy say something like "bureaucratic fools, they have no idea what they have there" or something like that on the stairs at the end?

[katiesue]

But the Ark crate DID have markings. They made a rather big point of it in Raiders. "TOP SECRET" and some numbers.


(I think "Do Not Open Before The Apocalypse" was on there, too.)

But didn't the Ark burn the markings off the crate? or am I delusional?

[Gemini Cricket]

But didn't the Ark burn the markings off the crate? or am I delusional?
Off of the first crate it was in.
They took it out of the crate to carry it to the spot where they did the ritual.
The box at the end seemed to be unburned.

[katiesue]

Well then I'm not totally senile then.

[innerSpaceman]

Message: Jaweh and his angels of death like America, and hate Nazi Germany. Yay!!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Message: Jaweh and his angels of death like America, and hate Nazi Germany. Yay!!Just wait until he discovers some long lost Muslim relic and tries to put it in an American Museum...

[Gemini Cricket]

Jeepers H. Crackers!
$305,962,923 Worldwide so far.

Wow, that's a lotta clams.
:eek:

[lashbear]

I'm 2 hours off seeing it with everyone from work. We're seeing it in a giant cinema "E-max" with Big Booming Sound like it should be !! *yay*

And Pokkorn !! and Choke-a-coalie !!! W00T.

I'm excited.

[innerSpaceman]

I honestly wish I'd only seen it once.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I saw it a second time yesterday (it's what Mom wanted to do for her birthday) and enjoyed it immensely! I didn't love it, walking out of the theatre on Saturday, but, by Sunday evening, I'd decided I was being too critical. I went back, and just enjoyed it for the sheer fun. Too much CGI? Sure, especially fencing on cars and Tarzan. Otherwise, setting physics and logic aside, lots of fun!

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, all the nitpicking got to me. But, aside from that, and though I liked the goofy spirit of the proceedings ... there was really nothing to it. Raiders of the Lost Ark is as complex as War and Peace in comparison to Indy 4.


So ... it still remains my second favorite. But Last Crusade is now a close third. Indy 4 has been demoted in my mind from my rapturous first viewing. Too bad.

[flippyshark]

I'm actually wanting to go back, which is rare. Perhaps I'll check it out at my nearest drive-in. (The Silver Moon in Lakeland, Florida) That way it will be a double feature with Iron Man, which I've not seen.

[innerSpaceman]

Another comparison in which Indy 4 will come out on the suck side.

[€uroMeinke]

I think what I enjoy about this movie is that one's opinion on it seems to move about from viewing to viewing and conversation to conversation.

[flippyshark]

I think what I enjoy about this movie is that one's opinion on it seems to move about from viewing to viewing and conversation to conversation.

Cognitive dissonance at work!

[innerSpaceman]

Nah, for me, it's totally consistent with my initial Euphoria over Return of the Jedi, The Last Crusade, and Attack the Clones. I enjoyed each one immensely at the opening show. I thought each one saved the series from a horrible predecessor. And I find each one pretty "meh" now, and don't care to ever see any of them again.


Indy 4 was, alas for me, the equivalent of a one-hit wonder band. But, like those others I mentioned, though I won't watch them, I will always think fondly of them.

[Gemini Cricket]

There you go again not knowing things.
:D
Empire was the best of the series.
:rolleyes:

[innerSpaceman]

That's what they all say. They should "all" watch it with me, and see if they can discount any of my zillion things wrong with it. Makes Indy 4 look like a masterpiece of flawlessness.

[Gemini Cricket]

Who would have thunk it?
Sex and the City is predicted to take this weekend with $55 mil while Indy will get $46.
I thought for sure Indy would have been #1 again this weekend...

[LashStoat]

Well, Lashbear and I saw Indy 4 – in fact we have now seen it twice. I’m glad the film exists, as I have always enjoyed “the wild ride” nature of the Indy series. A bit of “suspension of disbelief” is not in itself a bad thing – unless it’s done …umm… badly.

These things come to mind (in order of badly first):

The Tarzan scene. Fvck that was bad.
Nazca gets 0.75” of rain/year. That’s why the glyphs have survived all this time. With three waterfalls, it must have been the CGI rainy season. In fact, it was the CGI everything season. Glyphs, forest and temple in the same shot.
Selective magnetism controlled by a hessian sack, but not a sealed metal crate.
How does one reset those 2 billion ton sand-controlled obelisks?
Secreted natives dropping from (irreplaceable?) carvings in the ceiling. Do they get fed through a straw on mashed bugs and moss juice?
Angry natives in general – who, what, where, why?
Thirteen crystal skeletons do not equal one fleshy space geek.
Poison darts have poison tips, not poison shafts.
A lead-lined refrigerator. WTF? I want cold food, not heavy food.
Jeeps as fast as a rocket sled (as spotted by G.D)
TV being played to fiberglass dummies.
Running water outside, but not inside “Kaboom Town”.I’m sure that your list will be the same but different to mine. That’s OK though – different strokes for different folks. Except for the Tarzan scene. Fvck that was bad. Perhaps I'll wait for a "Directors Cut" version before I buy the four-disc trilogy, and hope the vines are the first to go...

Love and hugs,

The Stoat.

[Moonliner]

Well, Lashbear and I saw Indy 4 – in fact we have now seen it twice. I’m glad the film exists, as I have always enjoyed “the wild ride” nature of the Indy series. A bit of “suspension of disbelief” is not in itself a bad thing – unless it’s done …umm… badly.

These things come to mind (in order of badly first):

The Tarzan scene. Fvck that was bad.
Nazca gets 0.75” of rain/year. That’s why the glyphs have survived all this time. With three waterfalls, it must have been the CGI rainy season. In fact, it was the CGI everything season. Glyphs, forest and temple in the same shot.
Selective magnetism controlled by a hessian sack, but not a sealed metal crate.
How does one reset those 2 billion ton sand-controlled obelisks?
Secreted natives dropping from (irreplaceable?) carvings in the ceiling. Do they get fed through a straw on mashed bugs and moss juice?
Angry natives in general – who, what, where, why?
Thirteen crystal skeletons do not equal one fleshy space geek.
Poison darts have poison tips, not poison shafts.
A lead-lined refrigerator. WTF? I want cold food, not heavy food.
Jeeps as fast as a rocket sled (as spotted by G.D)
TV being played to fiberglass dummies.
Running water outside, but not inside “Kaboom Town”.I’m sure that your list will be the same but different to mine. That’s OK though – different strokes for different folks. Except for the Tarzan scene. Fvck that was bad. Perhaps I'll wait for a "Directors Cut" version before I buy the four-disc trilogy, and hope the vines are the first to go...

Love and hugs,

The Stoat.

Ahh but don't you see? They got you! You were so swept up in these details that you apparently failed to notice the entire lack of a story.

Lucas and Spielberg should get SusieAnne Krellingshaw to pen the next installment.

[LashStoat]

SusieAnne Krellingshaw, aged 11.5, of Arkansas, is currently studying script writing at the Arkansas Heights lower junior school. Topping her class with the well-renowned article she wrote on “Whale Bacon”, SusieAnne is tipped to be the screen writer for the next Indiana Jones blockbuster.

In her own words, SusieAnne says that “Indiana Jones in the Archeological Monument and Object with Mystical Powers will depart from the previous four titles in that the 'Object' will in fact be a soft burrito"…and she’s insistent that it be a real one.

Even at the tender young age of 11.5, Ms. Krellingshaw “sees the world as a rather aggressive, silicon-obsessed place”. To counter this, Indiana will grace our screen sporting a soft burrito in most scenes – including the most romantic scene where his walking frame snags the edge of a rug and Marion catches his burrito in her false teeth.

As for the “Archeological Monument” – SusieAnne isn’t saying much…but yours truly is laying money on the Mexican Stand at L.A Airport.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'm so glad the Stoat is around :)

[LashStoat]

Howdy Ms. Pallor,

Thanks for the mojo. Mr EuroMinke gave me some too. I've responded to heaps of threads to day. Check out the "Treadmill as a desk" thread. SusieAnnes' been hard at work today.

Love and hugs,

The Stoat XXX

[Not Afraid]

Stoat, you just made my day better.

[LashStoat]

Smooch XXX

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Not so long ago, on May 24th, IMDB message board participant beachedblonde coined a new phrase: nuke the fridge. Here's the definition from the Urban Dictionary...it's roughly equivalent to jumping the shark:

A colloquialism used to delineate the precise moment at which a cinematic franchise has crossed over from remote plausibility to self parodying absurdity, usually indicating a low point in the series from which it is unlikely to recover. A reference to one of the opening scenes of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, in which the titular hero manages to avoid death by nuclear explosion by hiding inside a kitchen refrigerator.

Sample usage:

Man, when Peter Parker started doing the emo dance in Spider-Man 3, that franchise officially nuked the fridge.

Since then, things have progressed quickly. The original posting seems to have been deleted but the phrase caught on, infected other message boards and web sites, and is now a full-blown meme on the verge of nuking the fridge itself. Google currently returns close to 16,000 results for variations on the phrase. Some participants in the IMDB forums have already grown tired of the phrase's repeated use. A Wikipedia page was created and has already been deleted (reason: "Protologism with no RELIABLE sources evidencing more than extremely limited usage"). A web site dedicated to the meme is available at nukingthefridge.com, not to be confused with the movie review blog at nukedthefridge.com. And of course, no meme these days is complete without the proper new media accoutrements: Facebook page, MySpace page, t-shirt, YouTube page, an auction to sell the domain name, and a post on a large-ish general interest blog way after the whole thing's already played out. I only heard it for the first time an hour ago and I'm already sick of it. Memes seem to be spreading so rapidly now on the web that they burn out before they can properly establish themselves. It'll be interesting to see if nuke the fridge makes it through this ultra-virulent phase and somehow slows down enough to jump to casual mainstream usage.

Their sample useage is pitch-perfect.

[mousepod]

Apparently there's a movie from 1963 called "Ladybug, Ladybug" where a character hides in a fridge to seek protection from a nuclear blast. I haven't seen it (and it's not on video), but I like the other movies I've seen by the director (David and Lisa, Mommie Dearest, Diary of A Mad Housewife). I've read several blogs that talk about all the different obscure films that Crystal Skull refers to. I think Boss Radio was on the right track with his original comments. I'm looking forward to watching it again on home video with this perspective.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't know why, but the fridge nuke thing barely bothered me when I first saw Raiders 4. I just took it as a silly joke, and went on from there.


Seriously, after the hijinks of Raiders 2 that everyone seemed fine with, I completely accepted anything without batting a Mara's Eyelash.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I really didn't mind the fridge, either. Plausible? No. Popcorny summer moviey? Absolutely.

(I just loved the reference to Spider-Man 3 in that quote, mostly. The emo bangs/dance took the movie from milquetoast to mess in two seconds flat.)

[LashStoat]

Dear LSpoor...LEyeor...LPyor...awe forget it,

Dear LSPE,

I've seen the movie three times in (almost) as many weeks, and I'd rather be with it than without it.

That said, it'll be a sad day when we go to the movies and walk away without any opinion at all. Unless it has Tom Cruise in it, in which case silence is totally acceptable.

Hugs,

The Stoat.

[Boss Radio]

I forgot exactly what I said, but I stand by Mousepod.

What did I say again?

[Alex]

Stupidity is not improved for being a reference to previous stupidity. At least not in my book. And the stupidity here isn't hiding in a lead lined refrigerator (actually probably the best hiding place given the circumstances) but rather what happened to the refrigerator.

But like I've said (I think) I'd have been fine with the refrigerator if it were relatively isolated. Instead it was just the thin leading edge of a continuous onslaught of poorly conceived and terribly executed garbage.

[mousepod]

I don't disagree with your point, Alex. I was terribly disappointed when I saw the movie, and my first post in this thread reflects that.

However, I've been listening to and reading some comments from people whose opinions I value, such as Boss Radio Glenn Erickson (http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2555indy.html), and I can't help but be reminded of my Gunga Din defense of the Temple of Doom.

I'm certainly not going to reevaluate this movie in hindsight, but I know that when I inevitably see it again, this is the filter through which I'll view it.

[Alex]

But looking at that list I don't necessarily see homages as simply ideas that have been used before (and sometimes a lot). For example:

Sexy Russian super-agent: curvaceous Janet Leigh as a Soviet air ace in JET PILOT (1957)

An individual with telepathic talent can read the minds of others: THE POWER (1968)


Sexy Soviet lady is a Jet Pilot reference? Does that mean that Natasha from Rocky & Bullwinkle was a Jet Pilot reference? Telepathy is a The Power reference? Does this mean that What Women Want is just a big tribute film?

If anything, if that article is accurate I think it further undermines the film. It turns Crystal Skull from being its own things with an eye towards the history of a genre to simply being a "best hits" clip reel of films from the 1950s (though 1980s). A less comedic entry in the Scary Movie franchise.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I'm not buying that either. The elements were enjoyable (to me) because they were archetypes. The sexy, mind-reading Soviet schemetress may be from this movie or that, but the point is she's from this movie and that movie, and that other movie, and already spoofed in that cartoon and that movie and that TV show and that other movie.


To say she's a specific homage to Jet Pilot is puny, and misses the boat by a wet mile.



Similarly, I don't find any of the Temple of Doom elements references specific to Gunga Din, when they are hoary old archetypes used, yes, in Gunga Din, and a hundred other films and stories.


Perhaps Gunga Din was the best repository of those elements .... heheh, before Temple of Doom came along.

[mousepod]

Aaah... f*** it. Of course it was a stinker. I guess I'm trying to pre-justify my seeing it again.

[Gemini Cricket]

What would have been funnier and a bit more Indiana Jones-ish was if he hid, the bomb hit the ground and no explosion. But, Indy has now locked himself in the refrigerator and a bunch of sheepish Army guys have to get him out. A mile away from the site, on their way to take Indy to jail (Jones recently free from the fridge), the bomb suddenly and unexpectedly explodes. The car gets thrown, Indy survives the car crash but he and the Army guys get doused with radiation. While he is in the shower getting scrubed down, Indy turns to one of the cleaners and grumpily says, "You should have left me in the refridgerator."
:)

[Alex]

Though now I am having fun finding tributes and homages.

Driving a truck through the jungle: Sorcerer (1977)
Male protagonist: The Thief of Baghdad (1924)
Raft type vehicle down river with rapids and waterfalls: River of No Return (1954)
Monkeys: Project X (1987)
Professor goes all weirdly native/crazy: Krippendorf's Tribe (1988)

[JWBear]

What would have been funnier and a bit more Indiana Jones-ish was if he hid, the bomb hit the ground and no explosion. But, Indy has now locked himself in the refrigerator and a bunch of sheepish Army guys have to get him out. A mile away from the site, on their way to take Indy to jail (Jones recently free from the fridge), the bomb suddenly and unexpectedly explodes. The car gets thrown, Indy survives the car crash but he and the Army guys get doused with radiation. While he is in the shower getting scrubed down, Indy turns to one of the cleaners and grumpily says, "You should have left me in the refridgerator."
:)

Not to mention seeing hot naked army guys getting scrubbed down with indy... :D

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Monkeys: Project X (1987)
Heh. I don't remember Matthew Broderick swinging through the trees...

Regarding the fridge - it would have been fine if the fridge didn't bounce and bounce and bounce, rendering a more human Indy into a blood and bones milkshake. I felt the exact same way when we saw Superman Returns and Lois survives serious plane turbulence being knocked around the cabin like a pinball, then an actual plane crash landing sans seatbelt or anything else, all with only a few bumps (I don't think she even bruised). Good thing seatbelts and oxygen masks are totally unnecessary. :rolleyes: Stupid.

I'm going to start using "nuked the fridge", and I hope it lasts. :)

[innerSpaceman]

I hated the Superman Lois thing even more, because it SHOWED her being bashed around, like bone-breaking bashed, on camera.

But yeah, I hate the crap you are supposed to just accept in a comicbook movie. And sadly, it was decided with the first sequel that the Indiana Jones films were going to be comic book movies.




I Frelling HATE sequels.

[Tref]

Regarding the fridge - it would have been fine if the fridge didn't bounce and bounce and bounce, rendering a more human Indy into a blood and bones milkshake.

I don't mind that so much except that it was so, uh un-thrilling. Consider the abuse "Ash" was put through in Raimi's Evil Dead II -- he was beat up in a hundred different ways but kept on getting up for more and you never once questioned it because it was so cleverly done. The Indiana Jones ice box scene had all of the abuse but none of the fun. Why not include a shot of Indy inside the fridge being bounced around? If there is another Indy movie hand it over to Sam -- that guy knows cartoon action. Spielberg did a great job with Minority Report but he really dropped the ball with the new Indy.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Minority Report is garbage, but that's another conversation.

[Chernabog]

Minority Report is garbage, but that's another conversation.

Wooooooaaaaaaahhhhhhhttttttt! Minority Report was brilliant. I'd like.. NO! I demand another thread. ;)

[Boss Radio]

And did we mention the three Niagra-sized death-defying Splash Mountain thrill ride waterfalls yet? Because there would be nothing left but his hat, the car keys, some dental fillings and red foam.

[Deebs]

And did we mention the three Niagra-sized death-defying Splash Mountain thrill ride waterfalls yet? Because there would be nothing left but his hat, the car keys, some dental fillings and red foam.

Yep.

The fridge set the tone. By the time Splash Mountain times 3 happened, I wasn't even concerned for their safety. At all.

[Boss Radio]

I was. Older people have less bone density.

[Deebs]

We're quite fragile then.

Off topic, sorry.

[Tref]

Minority Report is garbage, but that's another conversation.


On the contrary, MP is a great film with a lousy final act. But then ALL Spielberg films have lousy final acts.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Nope. MR was garbage from beginning to end. Garbage.

[mousepod]

You're just asking for a pile-on, GD.

Minority Report was a very good movie. As was A.I. :p

[Boss Radio]

I liked Minority Report, but always had trouble with the fact that the little bathtub that the bald ESP chick was in had a human-sized drain that led to safety.

Same architect as the Death Star?

[JWBear]

I liked AI too (and Bicentenial Man). Hated MR.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

You're just asking for a pile-on, GD.

Minority Report was a very good movie. As was A.I. :p

You are simply incorrect, sir. On both counts!

[innerSpaceman]

This means war! (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthread.php?t=8089)