Help me understand the Super Hero genre

[€uroMeinke]

So everyone's talking about Batman and I have no desire to see it. Same as Superman, Spiderman, The Incredible Hulk, etc. for some reason this genre just doesn't speak to me. So I ask this question in two ways;

1) What is it you like about super heros? What's your personal appeal - the fantasizing about super powers? the tight pants? secret identities?

2) What do you think it is that makes this such a popular genre from a more sociological position. Has 9/11 left us feeling more vulnerable and fearful? Are we more willing to have faith in the unseen?

I know I grew up in the era of sitcoms followed by crime dramas - the first perhaps a bit of escapism from the War in Vietnam and social upheaval of the 60's. The second, a fear of crime.

I have to say though, I did love the Increadibles, and the Bond franchise has always been a favorite (though I never liked it when Bond seemed to have super human powers). What do you think?

[wendybeth]

I'm not into the whole Superhero thing myself, but I imagine it fulfills some sort of innate desire to experience invincibility or some such thing. Most Superheros are totally emo, so they kind of get on my nerves. I loved Ironman, but not because it's from a comic- I just liked the character and thought RDJ did a fantastic job. Eric and Tori are the ones who love Spideyman, etc, so perhaps they can answer this better than I.

[Isaac]

I'm not into all of them but I enjoy Spider-Man, Batman and others, in part, cause I like the story of someone being given some type of special power, or being put in an extraordinary position and have to decide how to manage the privilege (or curse) without doing wrong to others, while using it for good reasons/ intentions, yet try to live a somewhat normal life and not crack under pressure.

[Boss Radio]

Superheroes are our culture's modern take on mythology. The concept of godlike beings with awesome powers that walk among us, like Superman, brings us comfort on a near religous level. Superman first appeared during the great Depression and was an American symbol of hope. Other heroes like The Flash, Wonder Woman and Batman followed. Some had powers. Some had masked identities. Batman was nothing more than an urban Lone Ranger, as was Green Hornet and the Spirit.

When Marvel revitalized the sagging genre in the 1960s, the "flawed" hero was introduced - Spider-Man was ultra-nerd Peter Parker, the Fantastic Four bickered like a real family, etc.

Comic books were always the domain of young boys. So is Hollywood. As the modern comic book evolved, so did the marketing of the formerly fringe but now mainstream genre film. Witness Comicon - once the domain of a few busloads of geeks where awkward and socially inept men outnumbered females of any stripe 10:1, is now a spectacle second only to Cannes.

Good vs Evil. Mythology. The same Joseph Campbellian myth-driven story of gods punching each other to high heaven.

I personally am tired of the spectacle, unless it is a story that has not been told before. That being said, I am very excited to see Frank Miller's take on The Spirit, who is a 1940s noir Lone Ranger masked detective with girl trouble.

The Lone Ranger is still the best, because he was constantly explaining his view of frontier justice to Tonto, a scenario that would later play out with Batman and Robin.

But I digress.

[BarTopDancer]

I'm not into them, usually only go to see them if someone else wants to. Went to see DK because I heard it was one of those movies to see in the theater, and I wanted to see Ledger's portrayal of the Joker sooner rather than later.

But it's hard for me to not like a movie with good guys vs. bad guys and stuff blowing up.

I do have a graphic novel written from the super hero's perspective of 9/11. I've read it twice and it's in a box with the rest of the stuff I have from that day.

[CoasterMatt]

I like to see s*** blown up.

[JWBear]

It's the tight, clingy outfits. Oh yeah... :D

[MouseWife]

The movies that I've gone to see, I have enjoyed. But, I have gone to go as a family or with the Hubster.

I finally get to see chick flicks when I see them at work cheap. I only recently saw 'The Holiday'. I thought it was cute. I don't like watching $h*! blown up.

I like firemen. :D

[€uroMeinke]

Good vs Evil. Mythology. The same Joseph Campbellian myth-driven story of gods punching each other to high heaven.

I personally am tired of the spectacle, unless it is a story that has not been told before. That being said, I am very excited to see Frank Miller's take on The Spirit, who is a 1940s noir Lone Ranger masked detective with girl trouble.

The Lone Ranger is still the best, because he was constantly explaining his view of frontier justice to Tonto, a scenario that would later play out with Batman and Robin.

But I digress.

I like your take and I think maybe you identified the thing that irks me most - the Good and Evil morality tale that plays out. I tend to respond more to characters with more moral ambiguity - perhaps I'd like the flawed hero's more, but I think the genre paints them into that good and evil paradigm.

[Boss Radio]

Which is why, ultimately, people identify more with the traumatized, conflicted Batman and the traumatized conflicted Spiderman more than the Godlike Superman.

A very interesting spin on the genre will be the upcoming Watchmen movie, which, if it is faithful to the graphic novel, should have a lot of moral ambiguity.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I like your take and I think maybe you identified the thing that irks me most - the Good and Evil morality tale that plays out. I tend to respond more to characters with more moral ambiguity - perhaps I'd like the flawed hero's more, but I think the genre paints them into that good and evil paradigm.The good ones have a lot of ambiguity.

Batman has always been my favorite. The appeal of Batman is twofold. 1) He's traditionally portrayed as "just a man". A really really really ridiculously skillful man, but mortal with no mutation, magic, or alien power. 2) He's morally ambiguous, mistrusted by the people he has given his life to protect, pushing the boundaries of just how far the ends justify the means.

The superhero stories that appeal to me do not have clear good vs. evil. They explore the themes and pressures that add up to good and evil, but I don't buy into it if it tries to make a black and white point. I'm much more interested when it explores the nuanced psyche of real people. Batman Begins I think is a good example. It tackled the subject of fear, making the point (among others) that while fear is a tool often used for evil ends, fear itself is amoral, turned evil only by those that choose to use it for such.

I'm not a huge fan of the genre, I haven't really been exposed to a whole lot of it. But from what I have seen, Batman is by far my favorite. It's always morally ambiguous, Batman possesses a highly damaged psyche. He's always struggling to separate what he wants from what he knows is right. I'm sure there are others as well that I'm just not familiar with, but that's what does it for me.

[Gemini Cricket]

I've enjoyed reading the X-Men comics since I was like 8 or so. I didn't know it back then, but there are a lot of gay themes that play throughout their comix, cartoons and movies. Mutant discrimination = homophobia.
:)

In fact, in a recent take on the X-men (Ultimate X-Men) Colossus is gay. He and Northstar from Alpha Flight are dating...

[Strangler Lewis]

I enjoy the "familiar" super hero movies well enough. On the other hand, it's something of a guilty pleasure. I don't see much meaningful difference between the super hero (and Bond) movies that this crowd anticipates and flocks to and Stallone/Schwarzenegger/Bruce Willis movies that I doubt inspired similar reactions. It's all tough guys kicking ass while spouting extremely tiring one liners.

What really gets my goat, though, are the recent TV shows like Heroes and all the Profiler-type shows where the cop sees dead people, or the future, or ten seconds into the future, or into the victim's mind (all the while with a shocked quizzical look on their face). I like my Hollywood liberal, skeptical, secular and anti-war. If I want to watch a war show, give me a good episode of JAG or Rat Patrol over a p**ssified, me-too-kind-of show like Heroes.

[3894]

EuroMeinke, you would have made a hell of an anthropologist. Nice questions. :snap:

[scaeagles]

Why am I not surprised the Heroes is one of the only shows I make it a point to watch and Strangler hates it?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Boss Radio made some great points. Mythology, yes, and I'd extend that to the Jesus story as well. Movies like Star Wars and the Matrix also push the "super hero" button.

I think it does all boil down to Good vs Evil, especially in the conflicted ones. The battle is played out from top to bottom - Peace vs Anarchy, Crime vs Justice, Justice vs Vengeance, Helping others vs Helping yourself, Guilt vs Redemption...decisions decisions decisions.

Peter Parker didn't stop a criminal because he didn't care, and that criminal killed the only father he'd known. Wrong decision, which he attempts to right forever. In the various Batman incarnations, he always gets to blame himself for his parent's death in some way (though he was only a kid and really wasn't his fault).

It also has to do with Trial by One Person vs Trial by Committee. There's a good reason Batman rises up only in a Gotham that is corrupted, with cops on the take. Bureaucracy vs individual decisions is another choice where we get to weigh pros and cons. There's something very satisfying in a universe where the guy that saw the criminal perform a crime is totally justified to beat the sh!t out of him. But this leads to the whole "won't kill the supervillain, even after countless attempts by the supervillain to kill the good guy." Good vs Evil again - controlling your base instinct and letting true justice prevail. That is, if the villain doesn't kill themselves somehow.

Addendum - I love the idea of doing a Civic Good but without having to join a Committee. Hmmm.

I push this out to One Person (or small band) against The System. Luke and the Rebels vs The Empire. Neo and Zion vs the Matrix. You can't control me, muthafckas.

Good bad good bad good bad....though I'm no comic book person I think that pretty much describes the genre, and every other compelling story ever written. ;)

[Alex]

I think there is also a lot of appeal in the idea that in being different/unique you are actually superior to everybody else and not the opposite.

Personally, I'm not much into super hero stories except in movie form. I haven't read a comic book since I was a pre-teen and then it was mostly the Scrooge McDuck comics my dad had.

For me, while it isn't the only thing I love about movies one aspect is the ability to create visually convincing non-realities. And the abilities of the medium have finally begun to catch up to the ideas behind fantasy (which I enjoy in written form) and comic books (which I don't). I have no real interest in the old Spider-Man movies, the Batman TV show, early Superman, etc.

[3894]

I think there is also a lot of appeal in the idea that in being different/unique you are actually superior to everybody else and not the opposite.


Good point. Why does the superiority have to be secret do you think?

[Alex]

Because when you're 13 and feel like you're completely different than anybody else and they hate you for it, the superiority apparently isn't obvious. It must manifest in some way others don't easily see.

[Boss Radio]

Boss Radio made some great points. Mythology, yes, and I'd extend that to the Jesus story as well. Movies like Star Wars and the Matrix also push the "super hero" button.

I think it does all boil down to Good vs Evil, especially in the conflicted ones. The battle is played out from top to bottom - Peace vs Anarchy, Crime vs Justice, Justice vs Vengeance, Helping others vs Helping yourself, Guilt vs Redemption...decisions decisions decisions.

Peter Parker didn't stop a criminal because he didn't care, and that criminal killed the only father he'd known. Wrong decision, which he attempts to right forever. In the various Batman incarnations, he always gets to blame himself for his parent's death in some way (though he was only a kid and really wasn't his fault).

It also has to do with Trial by One Person vs Trial by Committee. There's a good reason Batman rises up only in a Gotham that is corrupted, with cops on the take. Bureaucracy vs individual decisions is another choice where we get to weigh pros and cons. There's something very satisfying in a universe where the guy that saw the criminal perform a crime is totally justified to beat the sh!t out of him. But this leads to the whole "won't kill the supervillain, even after countless attempts by the supervillain to kill the good guy." Good vs Evil again - controlling your base instinct and letting true justice prevail. That is, if the villain doesn't kill themselves somehow.

Addendum - I love the idea of doing a Civic Good but without having to join a Committee. Hmmm.

I push this out to One Person (or small band) against The System. Luke and the Rebels vs The Empire. Neo and Zion vs the Matrix. You can't control me, muthafckas.

Good bad good bad good bad....though I'm no comic book person I think that pretty much describes the genre, and every other compelling story ever written. ;)

I tried to mojo you, but the mojo machine was not having it...so, yes, beautifully stated.

I think that in the fantasy of swift justice being dispensed by a masked vigilante, we feel a sense of vindication, whereas in the real world when someone takes the law into their own hands, we view it with more suspicion than admiration.

Costume + superpower = Justification of vigilantism.

[innerSpaceman]

I just like a good fantasy movie. Also something about basically the same story over and over again, but seeing how it's told by different artists in slightly different forms. The origin story especially is the same same same thing, over and over ... but the others also boil down to three or four tales told repeatedly, in slightly different styles.


I like the mythos stuff and good vs. evil boiled down to basics stuff. But not so much that I'd ever read a comic book.

Nope, it's the fantasy film fantastic stuff and visuals that appeals to me, and the superhero / comic book movie is just a subset of that.



BTW, the best movie for comic book superhero mythos understanding and exploration - which gave me a new appreciation for the movie genre I was into for different reasons - is M. Knight Shyamalan's underseen Unbreakable with Samuel L. Jackson and Bruce Willis. Fantastic.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Just to be clear - I was never into super hero comics, had a couple as gifts but never liked them, read one girly comic series...but I've always dug the movies. I was so in love with Christopher Reeve.


ETA - just wait until Borneio gets here

[innerSpaceman]

I love that Singer's Superman Returns was so reverential and referential to the Christopher Reeve Superman series, but the Nolan Batman series is its own animal.

Chris Reeve's 1978 Superman started this whole thing. You can hardly make a Superman movie without acknowleding it. So many Batman flicks by so many different artists make that one more of a free reign zone.

And, of course, there were no previous Spiderman or IronMan movies to have to deal with.


I didn't see this summer's The Incredible Hulk - did it pay homage to the Ang Lee original?? :p

[Kevy Baby]

I like to see s*** blown up.I still believe this is the best answer :)

[Strangler Lewis]

The good ones have a lot of ambiguity.


I was always moved by Archie's eternal dilemma: Betty or Veronica.

The best pro wrestling story lines also have a lot of ambiguity. There are very few pure heels or faces anymore.

Why am I not surprised the Heroes is one of the only shows I make it a point to watch and Strangler hates it?

I don't hate it. I've never seen it. I just hate the idea of it. If I watched it, I'd probably get into it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't hate it. I've never seen it. I just hate the idea of it. If I watched it, I'd probably get into it.We gave up before the end of season 1. Started out great but the dialog got way too exposition-heavy and the acting left a lot to be desired.

[innerSpaceman]

Season Two was supposedly a disaster that began to right itself just as the righting writers went on strike, so it ended with a promising whimper. I haven't seen it. Season 3 is supposedly better.

Hmmm, to rent or not to rent?

[JWBear]

Season Two was supposedly a disaster that began to right itself just as the righting writers went on strike, so it ended with a promising whimper. I haven't seen it. Season 3 is supposedly better.

Hmmm, to rent or not to rent?

It's got a lot of hot guys in it! :D

[innerSpaceman]

OMG, one-track mind.





(But, I like to take a few laps around that track myself)

[JWBear]

OMG, one-track mind....

Yes, like every male on this planet.

[NirvanaMan]

They're fun.

[Kevy Baby]

I like to see s*** blown up.

They're fun.Now TWO very excellent reasons to watch.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I'm not sure where to start. I fully agree with Boss Radio, I think that is an accurate discription.

I always believed that the Super Hero "red letter" was always paper thin. Although it is a good 60% of what is published in comics, its not the all definite. SImilar to the other genres like Comedy, Action or Drama, there are other variations.

I got into comics as a kid because of Star Wars - I was a big fan and one day at a garage sale I found SW comics and i was hooked. When I moved to Colorado, the local 7/11 and Market sold comics and I picked up all the Star Wars I could find. I loved the medium of comics, so I branched out into other titles and it eventually motivated me to want to do comics myself. It wasn't about tights or powers, it was about characters and the stories and how I related to them and felt after reading it. SImilar to a good film or book where afterwords you feel a certain satifaction. One thing i think nails what "Comics" are, and this is a bit of a loose quote that I've heard many times, is that they do what no other medium can do - the can tell the stories no other medium can - they can create an imagination that no other medium can, because they combine what's best in "entertainment" - it is PROSE, it is ART, it is CINEMA and it is IMAGINATION. No other medium can really posess and give you all those things and not caring where its a guy in underwear or Bond or Star Wars or Care Bears. Its a medium that deals directly with your emotions on many levels.

Like with Watchmen, I am hoping this will do what Dark Knight has done because it will turn "Suprehero" movies of the past on its ear.

Anyway...

[Gn2Dlnd]

I didn't see this summer's The Incredible Hulk - did it pay homage to the Ang Lee original?? :p

I don't know about the Ang Lee version, I didn't see it. But two, count 'em, two references to the TV show! :snap:

[€uroMeinke]

Comics I get as well as graphic novels - my challenge there is being overwhelmed by the explosion of the genre. But even as a kid, I read Archie and Dennis the Menace never taking to the Super Hero comics.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

Comics I get as well as graphic novels - my challenge there is being overwhelmed by the explosion of the genre.

Well, like everything in movies, each genre has it's day. We all know once one movie does extremely well, it leads to more and more of the same. Its not any different with Super Hero films. I think its a vastly untapped genre and has about a 3% ratio of excellence. Most of the films have sucked and have totally missed the mark on many levels. I think the genre has always been with it, just the massive success of Spider-Man and Dark Knight have shined a light on it and with good reason because they're fantastic films. I think if "hollywood" had chosen to do well made, written, acted and faithful films, we'd have seen this explosion along time ago.

[innerSpaceman]

I dunno ' bout that. Superman was a huge hit in 1979. Batman a sensation a decade later. Why not till circa 2000 for the genre to explode?

[NirvanaMan]

Still haven't seen Superman.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I dunno ' bout that. Superman was a huge hit in 1979. Batman a sensation a decade later. Why not till circa 2000 for the genre to explode?

Well, those were huge hits but that's about 1 in the 70's and 1 in the 80's. Other super-hero films were made but flopped. Captain America (1989), Fantastic Four (1990 - Not released), Punisher (Dolph Lungren version), Nick Fury (TV Film), Generation X (TV Movie) . Some did ok like Dick Tracy, Ninja Turtles, The Crow, all in the 90's. Then in the new millennium,there were many more that did big boxoffice - Spider-Man 1-3, Superman Returns, Dark KNight, Batman Begins, X-Men 1-3, Hulk, Iron Man Hellboy, Blade 1-3, Daredevil, Elektra, the Incredibles, etc etc.

What we saw, i think, was a ton of really terrible super-hero films early on that didn't make any money so Hollywood lost interest. Now with the huge boxoffice started by Spiderman and X-men, Hollywood noticed the $$ rolling in so they're following the explosion of the genre.

[NirvanaMan]

The Crow was from a comic? Damn. Maybe I secretly do like comics. Or just film noir.

[Alex]

I think we're seeing comic book movies explode for the same reason we are seeing every children's fantasy book that manages to sell more than 5 copies turned into a movie:

The technology has finally caught up with the vision.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

The Crow was from a comic? Damn. Maybe I secretly do like comics. Or just film noir.

Dude! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow

[NirvanaMan]

Dude! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow


Just teasing dude. :)

Just the same, I have never read a comic book. But it is in my top fave movies.

In no particular order

1. Batman (keaton/burton)
2. The Crowe
3. A Clockwork Orange
4. The Matrix
5. Dusk till Dawn
6. Back to the Future (entire series)

Though I do love a number of new personal exposures as of late:

1. Batman Begins
2. The entire Desperado series

[Strangler Lewis]

You have to be kidding about From Dusk till Dawn. I didn't believe a single "f*ck" that came out of George Clooney's mouth, or his ridiculous tattoo.

[alphabassettgrrl]

"Dusk til Dawn" was a good couple of movies. Ok, maybe not good, but they were entertaining. I was entertained. :)

[ToriBear]

SuperMan I think is kinda dumb, I don't know why, just is. Maybe 'cause his underwear is on the outside or something.

And the Hulk is a guy who whenever he gets mad turns into this big green thing. Really dumb.

Spiderman one is great, two, good, three, eh fine but not great.

Batman I'm getting back into again and want to see the new one.

Iron man I really liked, like WB( Or as I like to call her, the dork, Lol, jk) said. The guy who played him was great, I would so go see it again.

[Kevy Baby]

I was going to bring up the Richie Rich abomination, but since this is about Super Heroes and not just Comic Book movies, I won't.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Tori - have you seen the 1979 Superman, or the 1989 Batman?