All About McCain

[innerSpaceman]

Are there any other countries that are relatively warm and have a better political system and general standard of living than the U.S.? I'm really wanting some alternatives right about now.


I have been loathe to move away from my wonderful network of friends, but if it can work for Gemini Cricket ... I can somehow make it work for me. I want OUT of the United States, and I want to renounce my citizenship. Ugh, I need to take a shower every ten minutes in this country.


Please let's just have the election tomorrow.

[Alex]

Any chance of putting that picture in spoiler tags so it doesn't force horizontal scroll?

[sleepyjeff]

Are there any other countries that are relatively warm and have a better political system and general standard of living than the U.S.? I'm really wanting some alternatives right about now.


I have been loathe to move away from my wonderful network of friends, but if it can work for Gemini Cricket ... I can somehow make it work for me. I want OUT of the United States, and I want to renounce my citizenship. Ugh, I need to take a shower every ten minutes in this country.


Please let's just have the election tomorrow.

http://www.12retireinmalaysia.com/

Don't let the door ....well, you know:D

[3894]

Thank you, Sen. McCain, for not choosing Mitt Romney as your running mate. :snap: His financial expertise would have made you look better during this crisis. Instead, your running mate is making you look worse.

[BarTopDancer]

Are there any other countries that are relatively warm and have a better political system and general standard of living than the U.S.? I'm really wanting some alternatives right about now.


I have been loathe to move away from my wonderful network of friends, but if it can work for Gemini Cricket ... I can somehow make it work for me. I want OUT of the United States, and I want to renounce my citizenship. Ugh, I need to take a shower every ten minutes in this country.


Please let's just have the election tomorrow.

The grass is always greener...

Or maybe that would be a good thing ;)

The problem with immigrating to another country is their immigration laws (yes, other countries actually enforce them). Also, a lot of countries give job preference to those who have citizenship/born there, so unless you have a specialty that is in high demand there you may find yourself without sustainable income.

Trust me. The snow of Nova Scotia seems really tempting sometimes... ;) but the job availability of a small fishing town is not good.

[Ghoulish Delight]

T

The problem with immigrating to another country is their immigration laws (yes, other countries actually enforce them). Also, a lot of countries give job preference to those who have citizenship/born there, so unless you have a specialty that is in high demand there you may find yourself without sustainable income.
New Zealand's got no employment requirement.

[BarTopDancer]

There ya go Steve.

And now we'll all have a place to stay!

[innerSpaceman]

Hmmmm.

[tracilicious]

A New Zealander expat I know says that NZ govt is becoming more and more like US repub govt. I was talking about moving there to get away from here as well.

[3894]

Why's he bothering to show up for the debate when he's apparently already won:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/images/26Sep_Friday_WSJ.JPG

:rolleyes:

God totally told him he’s going to win.

[Snowflake]

God totally told him he’s going to win.

No, no, no, it was Sarah Palin's ex-pastor! ;)

[Gemini Cricket]

Jumping ship is giving up. You may just hit the water, look at the boat and say, "Hey, it's really not sinking and I'm all wet." Meanwhile, the people you left behind are contending with the issue that made you jump with one less person to help them.

While we're at it, I greatly dislike it when people say, "If you don't like America, then get out" or "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." It's okay to be unhappy with aspects of your country. That's where equality begins. No one owns the truth. Who are they to say you should leave? The response should be, "It's my country too. I want things to change."

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Our friends who are currently living in Scotland (only temporarily, they'll be back here early next year) are also mentioning New Zealand if McCain wins.

To be honest, I don't know what I'd do in that possible event. I do still feel that blues should stay and fight to keep America balanced....but if in the wake of the Bush Admin we still can't elect a Democrat to the White House......???

[JWBear]

I'm just afraid that after four years of McCain/Palin, there won't any place left in the civilized world that we won't be at war with...

[Gemini Cricket]

Our friends who are currently living in Scotland (only temporarily, they'll be back here early next year) are also mentioning New Zealand if McCain wins.

To be honest, I don't know what I'd do in that possible event. I do still feel that blues should stay and fight to keep America balanced....but if in the wake of the Bush Admin we still can't elect a Democrat to the White House......???
So positivity, hope and change have expiration dates of 11/04/08?

The world continues on the fifth of November no matter what the outcome is. Life goes on... rah!

:)

[sleepyjeff]

Our friends who are currently living in Scotland (only temporarily, they'll be back here early next year) are also mentioning New Zealand if McCain wins.

To be honest, I don't know what I'd do in that possible event. I do still feel that blues should stay and fight to keep America balanced....but if in the wake of the Bush Admin we still can't elect a Democrat to the White House......???


Might I offer a 3rd way;

If you want to stay and fight move to a swing state. Otherwise might as well leave. I mean..... What can you do in California that you can't do from New Zealand or Malaysia?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Might I offer a 3rd way;

If you want to stay and fight move to a swing state. Otherwise might as well leave. I mean..... What can you do in California that you can't do from New Zealand or Malaysia?Actually California is pretty much a purple state. As Alex has pointed out, local politics is red, national politics is blue.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm not leaving.
But I am moving as far away as I can from Washington DC and still be in the US of A.
:)

[sleepyjeff]

I'm not leaving.
But I am moving as far away as I can from Washington DC and still be in the US of A.
:)

Um, wouldn't that be Alaska:D

[sleepyjeff]

Actually California is pretty much a purple state. As Alex has pointed out, local politics is red, national politics is blue.

Fair enough. But if the reason you are leaving or staying be because of the Party who is in charge of the White House........would it not be more effective to live in a swing state such as Ohio, or even Nevada?

[JWBear]

Ex-Adviser: McCain "Blinked," (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/26/ex-adviser-mccain-blinked_n_129611.html)

Shirley added, "My guess is that plasma units are rushing to the McCain campaign as we speak to replace the blood flowing there from the fights among the staff."

[Ghoulish Delight]

Um, wouldn't that be Alaska:D
Actually it would be the US embassy or military base nearest to the islands St. Paul and New Amsterdam.

[sleepyjeff]

Maybe living in Georgetown would be nice....how about Miami Beach?

http://www.penangproperties.com/

[Ghoulish Delight]

Fair enough. But if the reason you are leaving or staying be because of the Party who is in charge of the White House........would it not be more effective to live in a swing state such as Ohio, or even Nevada?
You assume the impetus is to fix things. I believer her point is that if the perceived disaster of the Bush administration isn't enough to prod a national course correction, perhaps it's time to give up.

[Morrigoon]

iSm: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You'll only be trading some problems for others.

[sleepyjeff]

Actually it would be the US embassy or military base nearest to the islands St. Paul and New Amsterdam.

I suppose that's true.

[Snowflake]

The viability of polling has been discussed, but I will find it interesting to see what changes, or doesn't after the debate and spin this evening.

The latest polls here (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/)

[Gemini Cricket]

Um, wouldn't that be Alaska:D
I hear you can see Russia from there.
:D

[Snowflake]

I hear you can see Russia from there.
:D

And Putin rears his head over there, too.

[sleepyjeff]

You assume the impetus is to fix things. I believer her point is that if the perceived disaster of the Bush administration isn't enough to prod a national course correction, perhaps it's time to give up.

She mentioned staying and fighting....I was offering her a way to do that more effectively.

You're just afraid that this discussion could land your but in Toledo:cool:

[Ghoulish Delight]

Um, wouldn't that be Alaska:DUnless you go to the very tip of the Aleutians, nope. And even there it's only about the same distance as Hawaii, not further.

[Ghoulish Delight]

You're just afraid that this discussion could land your but in Toledo:cool:There's a Jewish community group offering $50k to move to Alabama...

[sleepyjeff]

I hear you can see Russia from there.
:D

On a clear day......maybe someday they'll build a bridge. Imagine that, you could like drive from New York to Berlin via Russia:cool:

Are we there yet:eek:

[sleepyjeff]

There's a Jewish community group offering $50k to move to Alabama...


There you go.....although I wouldn't consider Alabama a swing state just yet; maybe you and CP could be the vanguard.

[Gemini Cricket]

There's a Jewish community group offering $50k to move to Alabama...
GD & CP,

Don't.

Move.

To.

Alabama.

:D

[innerSpaceman]

G. Cricket, I'm curious ... technicality aside, does it feel like you're in the United States when you're living in Hawaii???

[Ghoulish Delight]

GD & CP,

Don't.

Move.

To.

Alabama.

:DPhew, thanks for posting that. I was already packing my bags!

[sleepyjeff]

And remember; if you get pulled over by the Alabama Highway Patrol, just try to have a little fun with the officer, tell a few jokes, make fun of his hat....they like that kind of stuff;)

[BarTopDancer]

Succession!

[sleepyjeff]

Succession!

No, no, no....then I'd have to move to Idaho.


I don't want to live in Idaho.

[BarTopDancer]

No, no, no....then I'd have to move to Idaho.


I don't want to live in Idaho.

Then convert and move to Alabama.

[Gemini Cricket]

G. Cricket, I'm curious ... technicality aside, does it feel like you're in the United States when you're living in Hawaii???
In all honesty? Not really. I don't know how to describe it, but it feels like it's its own country. Maybe Lani knows how to put it...
Phew, thanks for posting that. I was already packing my bags!
You're welcome. That was a close call.
:D

[Alex]

Um, wouldn't that be Alaska:D

Nope, even out at the end of the Aleutians (http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/World_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Washington%20D ulles%20International%20Airport%20%28Virginia,Loud oun%20County,US%29%20%5BAirport%5D&toplace=Adak%20%28Alaska,Aleutians%20West%20Census %20Area,US%29&fromlat=38.9445551&tolat=51.88&fromlng=-77.4552668&tolng=-176.6580556) you're about 800 miles closer to Washington, D.C., than when you're in Honolulu (http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/World_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Washington%20D ulles%20International%20Airport%20%28Virginia,Loud oun%20County,US%29%20%5BAirport%5D&toplace=Kekaha%20%28Hawaii,Kauai%20County,US%29&fromlat=38.9445551&tolat=21.9708333&fromlng=-77.4552668&tolng=-159.715).

Blame Mercator.


Of course, if you include territories then Guam (http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/World_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Washington%20D ulles%20International%20Airport%20%28Virginia,Loud oun%20County,US%29%20%5BAirport%5D&toplace=Guam%20International%20Airport%20%28,Guam% 29%20%5BAirport%5D&fromlat=38.9445551&tolat=13.4830556&fromlng=-77.4552668&tolng=144.7958333) wins.

[JWBear]

Succession!

Governor Palin is all for that!

[sleepyjeff]

Nope, even out at the end of the Aleutians (http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/World_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Washington%20D ulles%20International%20Airport%20%28Virginia,Loud oun%20County,US%29%20%5BAirport%5D&toplace=Adak%20%28Alaska,Aleutians%20West%20Census %20Area,US%29&fromlat=38.9445551&tolat=51.88&fromlng=-77.4552668&tolng=-176.6580556) you're about 800 miles closer to Washington, D.C., than when you're in Honolulu (http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/World_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Washington%20D ulles%20International%20Airport%20%28Virginia,Loud oun%20County,US%29%20%5BAirport%5D&toplace=Kekaha%20%28Hawaii,Kauai%20County,US%29&fromlat=38.9445551&tolat=21.9708333&fromlng=-77.4552668&tolng=-159.715).

Blame Mercator.





As the crow fly's....but what about a true straight line right thru the Earth itself?

[Alex]

Well, the difference in distance in that case won't be as large but by mathematical definition, assuming a perfect sphere, the line to Hawaii would still be longer.

And since the earth bulges slightly at the equator that would actually add to the Hawaii difference.

[Moonliner]

I'm trying very hard not to think of this as the "How far can we get from Moonliner" thread.

[sleepyjeff]

Well, the difference in distance in that case won't be as large but by mathematical definition, assuming a perfect sphere, the line to Hawaii would still be longer.

And since the earth bulges slightly at the equator that would actually add to the Hawaii difference.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[sleepyjeff]

Then convert and move to Alabama.

I'd need a bit more than $50,000 to move to Alabama......are there any similar programs for Lutherans to move to Rhode Island?

[JWBear]

Ant antipodeal map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Antipodes_LAEA.png

[sleepyjeff]

Wow, I am impressed by the size of your, um, map.

[JWBear]

Wow, I am impressed by the size of your, um, map.

Well, the world is a big place...

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I would dig moving to Ohio to help with blueness. At least, I'd move to a blue county there. ;)

Of course, I only say this because I know nothing about Ohio. They have the Rock 'N Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. Yup, that's all I know. I don't know what a Buckeye is...

Reality check - I don't think I could live in the US and be that far from my family. Even San Fran would be too far.

[Gemini Cricket]

In all honesty, I think I would rather live in a purple state than a red only or blue only state.

[Snowflake]

I would dig moving to Ohio to help with blueness. At least, I'd move to a blue county there. ;)

Of course, I only say this because I know nothing about Ohio. They have the Rock 'N Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. Yup, that's all I know. I don't know what a Buckeye is...

Reality check - I don't think I could live in the US and be that far from my family. Even San Fran would be too far.

Well, with the depressed state of Ohio's economy, not to mention your proximity to beaches and any Disney park. That would scotch it, I think! ;)

[innerSpaceman]

oh, and that pesky "Winter" thing.

[Gemini Cricket]

I vow never to live anywhere where it snows again.

AND to prevent the inevitable correction, yes, I know the Big Island has snow. But I mean like the Boston winter snow... which I hear is not as bad as Ohio's, Wisconsin's etc.

[3894]

I would dig moving to Ohio to help with blueness.

My daughter goes to college in Ohio. This will be her first presidential election and she's voting in Ohio. Every drop in the bucket helps.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Of course, I only say this because I know nothing about Ohio. They have the Rock 'N Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. Yup, that's all I know. I don't know what a Buckeye is...
Don't forget the football hall of fame in Canton.

[CoasterMatt]

Ohio has Cedar Point, King's Island, and not a single other redeeming quality.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Snow? Ah right, I forgot, I'm a spoiled Southern CA child.

I'm also too lazy to move anywhere. I like our place.

[Morrigoon]

On a clear day......maybe someday they'll build a bridge. Imagine that, you could live drive from New York to Berlin via Russia
If you haven't heard about the roads in Russia, I recommend you read a book called "Investment Biker" or the follow up "Adventure Capitalist". By a guy who's actually driven around the world... twice.

[Morrigoon]

I'm trying very hard not to think of this as the "How far can we get from Moonliner" thread.

Not to worry, Moonie. I'll stay here and fight. Sometimes on your side. (Just not right now ;))

[Gemini Cricket]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM3iWlTiEGc) is from Cafferty's show on CNN. He rips Palin a new one. The clip he shows made me cringe. I thought watching Bush was bad!

[Betty]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM3iWlTiEGc) is from Cafferty's show on CNN. He rips Palin a new one. The clip he shows made me cringe. I thought watching Bush was bad!

Definately cringe-worthy.

[Strangler Lewis]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM3iWlTiEGc) is from Cafferty's show on CNN. He rips Palin a new one. The clip he shows made me cringe. I thought watching Bush was bad!

She can always go back to pageants, er, scholarship competitions. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww)

[bewitched]

If she weren't running for vice-president, I'd almost feel sorry for her.

What I find inexcusible is that it is becoming clearer and clearer that she is not only lacking in experience but that she also seemingly has no knowledge of current events. Does she ever read a newspaper? Does she ever watch the news (even FOX)? She should, at the very least, be marginally informed. Watching her being interviewed gives the impression that she barely even knows what is going on...let alone has any breadth of knowledge about current events. Read a damn newspaper for God's sake! :rolleyes:

[CoasterMatt]

Chuck Hagel for President!

[3894]

Chuck Hagel for President!

Waaaaaay cuter, that Chuck Hagel. McCain is ugly and his mother dresses him funny.

[Tenigma]

Radio talk show host Ed Schultz reports (http://www.wegoted.com/):

Capitol Hill sources are telling me that senior McCain people are more than concerned about Palin. The campaign has held a mock debate and a mock press conference; both are being described as "disastrous." One senior McCain aide was quoted as saying, "What are we going to do?" The McCain people want to move this first debate to some later, undetermined date, possibly never. People on the inside are saying the Alaska Governor is "clueless."

Ouch. Seriously ouch. I almost feel sorry for Jeff and Sceagles.

[scaeagles]

I never take "unnamed" sources seriously.

However, it could be orchestrated to lower expectations and make any performance that isn't completely clueless into a victory. Very common to lower expectations.

[wendybeth]

I never take "unnamed" sources seriously.

However, it could be orchestrated to lower expectations and make any performance that isn't completely clueless into a victory. Very common to lower expectations.
Interesting- I seem to recall you taking the Enquirer's story on Edwards pretty seriously, and it was chock-full of 'unnamed sources' and 'close friends'.

(They are now reporting that Sarah has a secret lover!)
;)

[scaeagles]

No - nothing unnamed about the Edwards story. It was photograpahic evidence and a reporter catching him.

[sleepyjeff]

Radio talk show host Ed Schultz reports (http://www.wegoted.com/):





Be honest. Would you take something I linked to from a radio talk show host even remotely serious?

[BarTopDancer]

Be honest. Would you take something I linked to from a radio talk show host even remotely serious?

Be honest. Do you actually believe that after watching her interview with Couric that Palin remotely knows wtf she's talking about?

[bewitched]

Interesting- I seem to recall you taking the Enquirer's story on Edwards pretty seriously, and it was chock-full of 'unnamed sources' and 'close friends'.

(They are now reporting that Sarah has a secret lover!)
;)


I read she had an affair with her husband's "business associate."

More here. (http://www.worldpress.org/feed.cfm?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/2680018/Sarah-Palin-affair-rumours-are-false-says-John-McCains-team.html)


True or not, the McCain/Palin public relations problems just keep getting worse and worse.

[wendybeth]

No - nothing unnamed about the Edwards story. It was photograpahic evidence and a reporter catching him.

Oh, really?

National Enquirer Edwards story (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/john_edwards_cheating_scandal/celebrity/64271)

John Edwards is caught in a shocking mistress scandal that could wreck his campaign, The NATIONAL ENQUIRER has learned exclusively.

Sources have come forward to charge that the "other woman" previously worked on Edwards' campaign and followed the 54-year-old candidate on trips across the U.S.

A source close to the woman, whose name is being withheld by The NATIONAL ENQUIRER, says that she confessed to having an affair in phone calls and emails, saying that her work with Edwards soon exploded into romance. The shocking allegation — if proven true — could devastate the Democratic (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/john_edwards_cheating_scandal/celebrity/64271#) hopeful's campaign, especially because John's devoted wife Elizabeth is locked in a desperate battle with breast cancer.

"The affair started about 18 months ago," a friend says the woman confessed to her. "When they met at a bar, sparks flew immediately."


:D

[JWBear]

Oh, really?

National Enquirer Edwards story (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/john_edwards_cheating_scandal/celebrity/64271)

John Edwards is caught in a shocking mistress scandal that could wreck his campaign, The NATIONAL ENQUIRER has learned exclusively.

Sources have come forward to charge that the "other woman" previously worked on Edwards' campaign and followed the 54-year-old candidate on trips across the U.S.

A source close to the woman, whose name is being withheld by The NATIONAL ENQUIRER, says that she confessed to having an affair in phone calls and emails, saying that her work with Edwards soon exploded into romance. The shocking allegation — if proven true — could devastate the Democratic (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/john_edwards_cheating_scandal/celebrity/64271#) hopeful's campaign, especially because John's devoted wife Elizabeth is locked in a desperate battle with breast cancer.

"The affair started about 18 months ago," a friend says the woman confessed to her. "When they met at a bar, sparks flew immediately."


:D

Republicans never let the truth get in the way of a good smear.

[wendybeth]

I read she had an affair with her husband's "business associate."

More here. (http://www.worldpress.org/feed.cfm?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/2680018/Sarah-Palin-affair-rumours-are-false-says-John-McCains-team.html)


True or not, the McCain/Palin public relations problems just keep getting worse and worse.


The Enquirer has gone out on a legal limb and named names:

Palin's Affair (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/65481)

"Palin has vehemently de*nied cheating on her hus*band, and Hanson insisted to The NATIONAL ENQUIRER that he was never romantically in*volved with the 44-year-old Republican vice presiden*tial candidate.

However, Hanson family insider, Jim Burdett, has gone on the record and passed a rigorous polygraph test, revealing de*tails of the affair to The NATIONAL ENQUIRER in a world exclusive interview."


This time, they actually name a source......

[bewitched]

Hmmm.

Affairs, drunk driving (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/65443), drug use, vandalism, underage drinking (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/65407), teenage pregnancy...

Nothing like a good, God fearing, conservative family that lives their lives based on biblical principles. :rolleyes:

And the ultra-conservatives love this woman why?




And lest you knock the fact that it's The National Enquirer reporting these stories, even The National Review (http://media.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZjZhMzkyYzBiYTZhMDQ3MmMzODk3OTRiZGJiMjk2YmU=) admits that NE seems to get it right most of the time.

[scaeagles]

Named sources always mean more to me than unnamed.

Regarding Edwards - the reason I mentioned the story was that they had a reporter at the hotel and had cornered him in a bathroom stall after he came out of her room. I don't believe - though I might have - that I went into anything about the time line. Only that he was caught.

And JW - how is it that Edwards was smeared? Was he not caught doing exactly what he was accused of? Are you suggesting that the Enquirer has a republican slant and try to smear dems?

There have been plenty of smears regarding Palin. I guess dems never let the truth get in the way of a good smear.

[3894]

Every time Palin says she’s a maverick/ McCain is a maverick/ she's a reformer or mentions the word or concept of reform/ she wags her finger, I donate $5 to Obama's campaign.

[flippyshark]

Hmm, yeah, I guess it isn't a smear seeing as Edwards was guilty as charged. So was McCain, so was Clinton, so was Newt Gingrich, so have been so many of our cherished leaders. If it ends up being the case with Palin, it won't have the slightest effect on my opinion of her qualifications as VP/ potential P. really, it won't even be that much fun to snicker about. People in power fvck around - that's not very surprising or interesting. Still, I will give her the benefit of the doubt for now, while I go make a BACON lettuce and tomato sandwich.

[scaeagles]

You are right, Flippy.

I do wonder, though, but haven't the time to look for a study.....do the wealthy and/or powerful typically have affairs more often than a middle calss working Joe? Probably. I'd be curious as to the percentages.

[flippyshark]

I've heard it said that power is an aphrodisiac, so I bet that people with power have far more opportunities (and invitations) to stray than us working class shmoes.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Finally remembered to respond to this.
I've explained it several times. People like to have high ideals. They very much enjoy falling short of them. They like to elevate their failures to the level of sin, and they take refuge in the promise of salvation. It's why sinners and shortfallers like W, Clinton and Reagan do well, while fellows of comparative rectitude such as Gore, 41, Dukakis, etc. fail to sustain appeal.My next question would be - what about the days when people were ostracized for such behavior? I know that tell-all rags have been around for as long as America has existed, and that tea-rooms have been filled with lewd gossip forever...but still, when these indiscretions were aired in the newspapers, it means certain career death for those involved.....didn't it?

[Betty]

According to Tom Leykis - that's what women are into. Power and money.

And I have to agree to some extent - a guy can get away with being less good looking if he's got money and power. Those can definately add a certain amount of sexiness that's lacking in overall looks. So can a slight edge of danger. Or maybe that's just me the whole bad boy thing.

[flippyshark]

Lessee, I got no power, no money, I'm average looking at best - Yeah, I've really got to shake this nice guy crap. (I could start acting more like Tom Leykis - he's a real jerk.)

[innerSpaceman]

So, with all the debate prep she's being subject to, how come the brilliant Ms. Palin can't seem to get the Ticket's Talking Points thru her pretty skull?

In response to a question asked by a civilian on Saturday, "Do you think we should cross the border into Pakistan to fight terrorists there," she said (and I heard this in her own voice), "Absolutely. If the terrorists are in Pakistan, we should absolutely go in there and get them."


Did she not bother to watch the debate on Friday where McCain exoriated Obama for saying he'd make cross-border raids into Pakistan? Forget for a moment that he misrepresented Obama's stance, he made a big deal about what a mistake it was to SAY that OUT LOUD. Then his running mate goes and says that out loud the very next day.



She didn't even qualify it, as Obama did, to say that "if Bin Ladan, if top lieutenants of al Queda or the Taliban are in our sights, and Pakistan is unwilling or unable to act, then we should ..." No, Palin said unqualifyingly, "Absolutely, we should go in there and get them."




Go ahead, kool-aid drinkers, defend that. I dare you.

[JWBear]

Steve, you and I both know that they'll just dismiss it or explain it away with some lame excuse; or they'll try and smear the source. That's how Republicans work nowadays; never admit you are wrong, and the truth must bend to support the party's position.

[scaeagles]

I can't. Poor thing to say. And wrong.

Although, I will admit to trying to come up with some justification just becuase you wrote "I dare you". I'm not one to shy away from such things.:)

Edited to add - and after posting this and reading JW's post, I REALLY REALLY want to say something to justify it.

[BarTopDancer]

Edited to add - and after posting this and reading JW's post, I REALLY REALLY want to say something to justify it.

Do it. I double dog dare ya.

[Gemini Cricket]

Can a candidate dump their VP choice once the early voting beings? ie. I hear Ohio can start voting tomorrow.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Aside from Tina Fey's compulsory Palin impersonation, Saturday Night Live has sucked, imo, thus far in its first few episodes.

There have however been a few bright spots. Weekend Update is one. But there was a sketch in the James Franco show that is getting a lot of ink that I thought was hilarious and I think is getting a raw deal.

It's getting a lot of flack because it supposedly implies that Palin's husband is engaged in incest with their daughters. If you've seen the sketch, you'd know that the reality is they were trying to make fun of the NY Times, and others, for shoddy, sensationalist reporting. Unfortunately the writing for that particular joke was REALLY bad and it came off totally wrong. Dumb that people can't figure out what they really meant, but I understand what the confusion is.

But what really sucks is that the rest of that sketch was hilarious and, ironically, a pretty good jab at us liberal city dwellers. The basic premise was that the reason Palin was vetted so poorly by the media before McCain announced her was that reporters from the lower 48 were too scared to go to Alaska and survive without their lattes for 2 weeks and the absurd sterotype image they've got of Alaska. But because people have decided it's offensive to have suggested incest (even though it was really trying to show how retarded it was to suggest incest), the clip isn't available anywhere. :(

[innerSpaceman]

...or they'll try and smear the source. That's how Republicans work nowadays; never admit you are wrong, and the truth must bend to support the party's position.

Yep, that's why I loved hearing it in her own voice, and the question came from a voter, not from the press.


Anyway, I appreciate scaeagles' response (as well as the urge to challenge the dare ;) )

[3894]

reporters from the lower 48 were too scared to go to Alaska and survive without their lattes for 2 weeks and the absurd sterotype image they've got of Alaska.

Palin pretty much returns the favor. She absolutely does not represent rural people all over the United States.

[Gemini Cricket]

I enjoyed both Fey skits and the Bill Clinton skit during Weekend Update last Saturday. But I gotta tell ya, I didn't like anything else. SNL is stinking right now. I got what they were trying to do with the NY Times skit, but I didn't find it funny. And it had nothing to do with the subject matter, it was just dull.

I can't tell if Tina Fey's portrayal of Palin is helping her or obliterating her.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I got what they were trying to do with the NY Times skit, but I didn't find it funny. And it had nothing to do with the subject matter, it was just dull.
Maybe it's because I've been to/have family in Alaska that I connected with it. I mean, they had me laughing immediately with, "Okay, how many of you don't know how to drive a stick shift?" Seriously dude, NY Times reporters would be toast in two days in Alaska.

But yes, really really crappy writing overall on the show. Except for the final sketch on that James Franco show (the Willem Defoe sketch). That was damn funny and I gotta wonder how much truth there was to it.

Oh, and the Of Mice and Men alternate ending. Hahahah.

I can't tell if Tina Fey's portrayal of Palin is helping her or obliterating her.She doesn't need Fey's help, she's obliterating herself quite efficiently.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'd love to go to Alaska. Unfortunately, I can't take a cruise up there. But I'd love to see it.

The debate sketch was just okay, too. The McCain guy was dead on, the Obama guy not so much. He got the 'start every sentence with "look"' thing down but that's about it. And there was a ton of things they could have made fun of when it came to the first pres debate. 1. The whole 'I have a bracelet too' thing. 2. McCain and his Sharpie. 3. Jim Lehrer's looks to each candidate. I found a couple of them comedic. 4. McCain just barelling through not letting anyone else talk. 5. McCain's bad tie. 6. Obama's huge smile. 7. McCain's tribute to Kennedy could have been milked... So much material there unused.

[Strangler Lewis]

I think Fred Armisen's impression was contrived during the primary season with the intention of making Obama look stupid in order to boost Hillary. Now, they're stuck with it.

[tod]

Can a candidate dump their VP choice once the early voting beings? ie. I hear Ohio can start voting tomorrow.

I would say yes, because technically a vote is for electors committed to a particular presidential candidate, not the actual candidate.

--t

[Snowflake]

724


:D

[wendybeth]

Great one, Snow!:snap:

[Gemini Cricket]

So I was reading up on the 2nd Tina Fey sketch and heard that she used actual quotes from Palin. So, I looked at (listened to, actually) the full Couric/Palin interview. It was painful, painful to experience. I was so embarrassed for Falin' Palin.

[Gemini Cricket]

Yeah, you know, I think I've finally fallen in love with a chick. Her name is Tina Fey. I want to have her babies or how ever that works.

[sleepyjeff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD4P5uD0f_w

[bewitched]

Because I'm awake, bored and well, it's damn funny:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/wbewitched/0903_palin_07_full.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/wbewitched/0905_mccain_lookalike_04_full.jpg

[Betty]

The Time Quote of the Day today is a picture of Palin with this quote:

I'm looking forward to meeting Joe Biden. I've been hearing about him since the second grade.

[flippyshark]

Yeah, you know, I think I've finally fallen in love with a chick. Her name is Tina Fey. I want to have her babies or how ever that works.

I've had a crush on Tina Fey for a long time now.

[3894]

The Time Quote of the Day today is a picture of Palin with this quote: "I'm looking forward to meeting Joe Biden. I've been hearing about him since the second grade."

And he's looking forward to meeting you, Palin. Of that I am super sure.

[Snowflake]

The Time Quote of the Day today is a picture of Palin with this quote:

I'm looking forward to meeting Joe Biden. I've been hearing about him since the second grade.


Of course, Karl Rove told her to say this.

Particularly funny given the age of her running mate, when did she hear of John McCain? The snark in me thinks, not before June 2008. ;)

[bewitched]

Of course, Karl Rove told her to say this.

Particularly funny given the age of her running mate, when did she hear of John McCain? The snark in me thinks, not before June 2008. ;)

The snark in you makes a very funny observation. :D

[bewitched]

And he's looking forward to meeting you, Palin. Of that I am super sure.



Aren't we all...aren't we all?

I'm popping a big bowl of Orville Redenbacher's. :D

[JWBear]

Um.... Why would a second grader in Alaska have heard about a (very) Jr Senator from Delaware?

[Not Afraid]

Oh, don't be silly. Palin is just trying to audition for her role as a member of the SNL cast.

[bewitched]

Um.... Why would a second grader in Alaska have heard about a (very) Jr Senator from Delaware?

Because being up to date on current events has been a passion of hers since she was a young girl. :p

[BarTopDancer]

Viral Email raises money for Planned Parenthood in the name of Sarah Palin (http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10564322).

An anonymous viral e-mail is circulating nationwide asking people to donate to Planned Parenthood in the name of Sarah Palin. When donors do so, Planned Parenthood sends Palin a thank-you card informing her that donation has been made in her honor.

Dear Friends:
We may have thought we wanted a woman on a national political ticket, but the joke has really been on us, hasn't it? Are you as sick in your stomach as I am at the thought of Sarah Palin as Vice President of the United States?

Since Palin gave her speech accepting the Republican nomination for the vice presidency, Barack Obama's campaign has raised more than $10 million dollars. Some of you may already be supporting the Obama campaign financially. None of you, however, can be happy with Palin's selection, especially because of her position on women's issues. So, may I suggest the following fiendishly brilliant alternative?

Make a donation to Planned Parenthood. In Sarah Palin's name. And here's the good part: When you make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name, they'll send her a card telling her that the donation has been made in her honor.

Cut and paste to the Planned Parenthood website: www.plannedparenthood.org.
You'll need to fill in the address to let Planned Parenthood know where to send the 'in Sarah Palin's honor' card. I suggest you use the address for the McCain campaign headquarters, which is:
McCain for President
1235 S. Clark Street
1st Floor
Arlington, VA 22202
Feel free to send this along to all your friends and urge them to do the same.

[JWBear]

I do love me some Mark Morford... (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/09/19/notes091908.DTL)

[Not Afraid]

Diagraming the Sentences of Sarah Palin. (http://www.slate.com/id/2201158/?from=rss)

In conclusion....
In a few short weeks, Sarah Palin has produced enough poppycock to keep parsers and diagrammers busy for a long time. In the end, though, out of her mass of verbiage in the Sean Hannity interview, Palin did manage to emit a perfectly lucid diagram-ready statement that sums up, albeit modestly, not the state of the economy that she was (more or less) talking about but the quality of her thinking:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/122953/2180638/2201304/081001_GW_sentenceDiagram3.gif (http://www.slate.com/id/2201305/)


:)

[Tom]

An exchange from the most recent Palin-Couric exchange:

COURIC (to Palin): Do you think there's an inherent right to privacy in the Constitution?
PALIN: I do. Yeah, I do.
COURIC: The cornerstone of Roe v Wade.
PALIN: I do. And I believe that --individual states can handle what the people within the different constituencies in the 50 states would like to see their will ushered in in an issue like that.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm so excited about tomorrow. :D

[Tenigma]

Ridicule amongst the rest of the world....I hardly care. Most of the rest of the world is run by dictators and would be considered second or thrid world.

Sceagles, I thought of you when I ran into the following article from Spiegel in Germany (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-581502,00.html):

America Loses Its Dominant Economic Role

George W. Bush has grown old, erratic and rosy in the eight years of his presidency. Little remains of his combativeness or his enthusiasm for physical fitness. On this sunny Tuesday morning in New York, even his hair seemed messy and unkempt, his blue suit a little baggy around the shoulders, as Bush stepped onto the stage, for the eighth time, at the United Nations General Assembly.

He talked about terrorism and terrorist regimes, and about governments that allegedly support terror. He failed to notice that the delegates sitting in front of and below him were shaking their heads, smiling and whispering, or if he did notice, he was no longer capable of reacting. The US president gave a speech similar to the ones he gave in 2004 and 2007, mentioning the word "terror" 32 times in 22 minutes. At the 63rd General Assembly of the United Nations, George W. Bush was the only one still talking about terror and not about the topic that currently has the rest of the world's attention.

"Absurd, absurd, absurd," said one German diplomat. A French woman called him "yesterday's man" over coffee on the East River. There is another way to put it, too: Bush was a laughing stock in the gray corridors of the UN.

The American president has always had enemies in these hallways and offices at the UN building on First Avenue in Manhattan. The Iranians and Syrians despise the eternal American-Israeli coalition, while many others are tired of Bush's Americans telling the world about the blessings of deregulated markets and establishing rules "that only apply to others," says the diplomat from Berlin.

But the ridicule was a new thing. It marked the end of respect.

...

This is no longer the muscular and arrogant United States the world knows, the superpower that sets the rules for everyone else and that considers its way of thinking and doing business to be the only road to success.

A new America is on display, a country that no longer trusts its old values and its elites even less: the politicians, who failed to see the problems on the horizon, and the economic leaders, who tried to sell a fictitious world of prosperity to Americans.

Also on display is the end of arrogance. The Americans are now paying the price for their pride.

Gone are the days when the US could go into debt with abandon, without considering who would end up footing the bill. And gone are the days when it could impose its economic rules of engagement on the rest of the world, rules that emphasized profit above all else -- without ever considering that such returns cannot be achieved by doing business in a respectable way.

This stuff is horrendous... horrendous what has happened to us. This is a GLOBAL world. We have GLOBAL markets, GLOBAL issues. We've been the last superpower, and we've been squandering it away. You might not personally care what some Gaston thinks in Paree, but all of this affects all of us in the U.S.; our economy, our influence, world politics, etc.

I have to say, if you still think that how we are viewed by the rest of the world is not relevant, then you sir, are living in the 20th century, as a Monroe doctrine isolationist.

What will the rest of this planet think of us when we elect a 72-year-old senior citizen with his hottie trophy VP who appears to be completely disengaged from the world?

[scaeagles]

Indeed. It is a global world. I find all of this amusing, because the European housing and credit markets are in largely the same condition. In fact, I beleive we're going to be getting healthier long before they do, as is evidenced by the amazing surge recently of the dollar against the Euro. If Americans are paying the price for their pride (which is not all together untrue), what are the Europeans paying the price for as they experience much of the same?

I am most certainly not an isolationist, and to call me such is rather ignorant of my views that have been clearly stated over the years on this board because I have always supported US influence in the rest of the world. I am pro NAFTA, pro Gulf War I and II, pro free trade (NAFTA being north American only I am listing this separately), pro Israel, pro NATO, Russian expansionist aims concern me....I could go on and on and on.

I make NO apologies for not being concerned about what "Gaston thinks in Paree" when they have so many bass ackwards policies there, which if I am critical of I seem to be a target of ridicule and accused of being too nationalistic....yet criticism of American problems (when a large portion of the free world is experiencing the same thing) is gospel when coming from Gaston.

No apologies whatsoever. What the rest of the world thinks is not what concerns me overall, because I think the rest of the world is more often than not screwed up in their thinking.

[innerSpaceman]

But there you go again, scaeagles. Trying to excuse the problems of the United States by crying to mommy, "but Europe did it, too."



For all you know, "Gaston" could go on in the next sentence to ridicule Algeria, Japan, Malaysia and then his native France. But it doesn't matter if he does or not. If everyone is a thief and a liar, does that make it ok for me to be a thief and a liar??

[scaeagles]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

In my post there is NOTHING about excusing the US at present, nor have I portrayed it as such. I am simply saying that their criticism of the US in this current fiscal crisis is laughable when they are experiencing their own crisis in the same financial markets.

We have problems of our own making. Europe has problems, too. So I am to take the criticism of Europe seriously when they have the exact same thing going on? NO WHERE did I justify ANYTHING going on. I'm laughing at the criticism from them because of it.

I did not say our problems are excusable because of their problems. I said their criticism of our problems is laughable because of their own.

[innerSpaceman]

Why are you obsessed with the source of the criticism? How does the source make or not make criticism valid?


People often ridicule the pot calling the kettle black ... but it's almost always the pot who knows best about the blackness it sees in kettle.

[Strangler Lewis]

Scaeagles, your criticism of Gaston seems a little dishonest now that the Republicans have a VP nominee who uses antlers in all of her decorating.

[scaeagles]

My point, ISM, is that I don't know why I'm supposed to care about what the Europeans (or whomever) think about us because of the current situation when they are in fact in the same situation.

It is not that I consider criticism of our situation to be invalid,nor have I said so. I'm just wondering why I should care about what others think about us because of it when they are doing the exact same thing. It's like a heroin addict pointing at another heroin addict talking about how pathetic they are. Both are pathetic and the one talking about how pathetic the other is might need to realize they are no better.

Yes, we're both heroin addicted and pathetic. But I don't care if the other pathetic losers think we're pathetic losers, too.

[Gemini Cricket]

Scaeagles, your criticism of Gaston seems a little dishonest now that the Republicans have a VP nominee who uses antlers in all of her decorating.
That was just brilliant, SL! Visible mojo.
:D

[Ghoulish Delight]

My point, ISM, is that I don't know why I'm supposed to care about what the Europeans (or whomever) think about us because of the current situation when they are in fact in the same situation. ...
Yes, we're both heroin addicted and pathetic. But I don't care if the other pathetic losers think we're pathetic losers, too.
Except it didn't use to be that way. It used to be that when other markets were faltering, they'd be looking to us for help. I think it IS significant to note that the rest of the world appears to have diminished respect for our economic stature, especially in a world where we are increasingly reliant on world consumer confidence. It's not about whether we're having the same problems as everyone else, it's about whether we are still perceived as the economic leaders of the world. Economics is 100% perception. Money has no value unless people think it has value.

That's not to say that a few individual opinions are absolute proof of anything, but if we want to get back on a path to recovery, you have to look at more than market indexes and exchange rates. The dollar may have gained a bit of strength in recent weeks, but if there's a growing perception of weakness it will not last.

[Morrigoon]

scae: because no matter how much we think their opinion doesn't matter, it does, and it does affect us, financially, militarily, and otherwise.

Case in point - when Poland is perceived as weak, it gets invaded.

[innerSpaceman]

Really, scaeagles. We're not saying you should necessarily care because of the FACT that our reputation has sufferered, but rather because there are tangible effects of that diminished reputation.


Set aside that you don't care about what the pot thinks of the kettle. Does it bother you if the pot won't cooperate with the kettle in the kitchen because the kettle's turned black (and no one recognizes black quicker than the pot)??

[Morrigoon]

Except it didn't use to be that way. It used to be that when other markets were faltering, they'd be looking to us for help. I think it IS significant to note that the rest of the world appears to have diminished respect for our economic stature, especially in a world where we are increasingly reliant on world consumer confidence. It's not about whether we're having the same problems as everyone else, it's about whether we are still perceived as the economic leaders of the world. Economics is 100% perception. Money has no value unless people think it has value.

That's not to say that a few individual opinions are absolute proof of anything, but if we want to get back on a path to recovery, you have to look at more than market indexes and exchange rates. The dollar may have gained a bit of strength in recent weeks, but if there's a growing perception of weakness it will not last.
Excellent post.

There are many experts who have been bearish on the US economy in the long term. Knowing that, and seeing it come true, bothers me, because they also didn't see much hope for us regaining our stature.

[scaeagles]

I don't believe for a second that the pot isn't going to work with the kettle. This is all opportunistic bluster, IMO.

Europe in particular has been openly trying to challange the US as the economic leader of the world.... I believe the some french official said they wanted to be a counter balance to the US. Thus the Euro, the European Union, etc, etc, etc. This is a chance for them to play international politics and criticize that which they wish to replace. You will counter that this isn't about the leadership of Europe, but about the people, but the leadership sets the policies.

This is why I lend no credence to it. They want to be in the position we have occupied, so of course they will criticize us.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The position we occupy? In massive debt to the rest of the world, unable to afford our own labor costs, and an insurmountable trade deficit? Oh yeah, I'd sooooo envy us too.

[BarTopDancer]

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/political-pictures-sarah-palin-john-mccain-look-shiny-object.jpg

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/political-pictures-sarah-palin-palindrome-forward-backward.jpg

[Ghoulish Delight]

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/political-pictures-sarah-palin-john-mccain-look-shiny-object.jpg


BTD for VP!

[BarTopDancer]

BTD for VP!

But I can't see Russia from my house!! Though I've been to Canada and Mexico.


Someone has to update the debate on twitter, or text me. This is going to be bad. More Couric Interviews (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=31004)

[mousepod]

I like this one:
http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/political-pictures-abraham-lincoln-inexperienced-illinois-senator.jpg

[Snowflake]

Top Ten Things Overheard at Sarah Palin's Debate Camp


10 "Let's practice your bewildered silence"

9 "Can you try saying 'Yes' instead of 'You betcha'?"

8 "Hey, I can see Mexico from here!"

7 "Maybe we'll get lucky and there won't be any questions about Iraq, taxes, or health care"

6 "We're screwed!"

5 "Can I just use that lipstick-pit bull thing again?"

4 "We have to wrap it up for the day -- McCain eats dinner at 4:30"

3 "Can we get Congress to bail us out of this debate?"

2 "John Edwards wants to know if you'd like some private tutoring in his van"

1 "Any way we can just get Tina Fey to do it?"

Or, watch it here (http://lateshow.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/index/php/20081001.phtml#)

[JWBear]

I like this one:
http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/political-pictures-abraham-lincoln-inexperienced-illinois-senator.jpg

Funny, but inaccurate. Lincoln was never a Senator. He served one term in the House.

[Tenigma]

Except it didn't use to be that way. It used to be that when other markets were faltering, they'd be looking to us for help. I think it IS significant to note that the rest of the world appears to have diminished respect for our economic stature, especially in a world where we are increasingly reliant on world consumer confidence.

While it's not directly related to the global economy, one thing I want to mention is the little personal anecdote Obama gave during the first debate, about how his father did everything he could to come to the U.S., and how the U.S. is no longer looked upon as the beacon for people to come to.

I caught a snippet of the Laura Ingraham show, where a female caller said Obama was absolutely wrong, because we still have a ton of illegal immigrants trying to cross into the border.

I agree we still have a lot of people wanting to come here, but I think a lot of what's driving that is economic. What Obama was talking about was people wanting to come here for ideological purposes; people seeing America as the home of the free, where you can make your dream come true. When other countries snort and disrespect our country, we lose footing as the "beacon of freedom" that people want to flock to.

Some might think that's a good thing--less immigrants. But I'd like to continue to think of us as the good guys. Not the scary fundamentalist Christianist country so afraid of terrorists that our government thinks it's OK to ship suspects to foreign countries to be tortured.

Oh one thing... I give McCain credit for being expressly against torture, but I bet Obama will be much faster about closing GITMO, stopping extraordinary rendition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition), stopping "advanced interrogation techniques" and other horrendous things we do to people, many of whom aren't even formally charged. How does that stuff make us the good guys?

[innerSpaceman]

Well, with all due respect, we were NEVER the good guys. We simply fooled the rest of the world and our own people into thinking so.

The armed forces, the spy agencies, the government on every level have always been corrupt and evil.



It's just no longer a secret.

[Snowflake]

or so her campaign people are saying

Palin’s new plan: Go after Biden
Mike Allen
ST. LOUIS — Sarah Palin plans to go on the attack in tonight’s debate, hitting Joe Biden for what she will call his foreign policy blunders and penchant for adopting liberal positions on taxes and other issues, according to campaign officials involved in prepping her for tonight’s showdown.

The Palin camp is projecting surprising self-confidence in the pre-debate hours, despite the vice presidential nominee’s uneven — and, at some points, peculiar — performances in recent television interviews, the officials say. Top advisers to John McCain privately say Palin’s recent CBS interview was a borderline disaster, especially since it played out in several segments over several days. Tonight will be different, they say.

“This is going to finally put her back into a position where we see her like we saw her the first couple weeks,” a McCain official said. “She was herself. She was authentic, and people related to that. ... Tonight, she’ll get into a rhythm. You’re going to see her in a way that you haven’t seen her yet.”

Full story with Biden's plans, etc. is here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/14220)

[Tenigma]

Hey guys, don't forget to print up your very own "Sarah Palin Bingo" cards for the debate over at http://palinbingo.com

There's a guy who came up with more cards if you need, too:

http://davidgrenier.com/palinBingo.php

[Tenigma]

Wow, where IS everyone?

What did you guys think of the debate?!?!?

I think she was able to recite her memorized lines real gud!!!!

[innerSpaceman]

We have a debate thread, but I don't think you'll see much action there either.

It was a snoozefest.


Actually, the person I was most disappointed with was Gwen Ifill.

[Gemini Cricket]

I thought McCain's comment about Biden being "ready to gaffe" was pretty funny. But Biden didn't, which made it funny in a different way.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It seems that immediately after watching debates, I have no urge to dissect it online. I don't even log on to the LoT that night. They wear me out, blech.

[Tenigma]

Making its rounds on the internets (click for a bigger piccie):


http://pics.livejournal.com/scoobiedoggie/pic/000teswx/s320x240 (http://pics.livejournal.com/scoobiedoggie/pic/000teswx)

[Tenigma]

Posted in my LJ:

I realize Rolling Stone doesn't have nearly the impact it did say 20 years ago, but this article is a real eye-opener.

Apparently the there's buzz in conservative circles of this being McCain's swift boat:

"Make-Believe Maverick: A closer look at the life and career of John McCain reveals a disturbing record of recklessness and dishonesty (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain/)"

This article is long, but I encourage you to read it. It's a pretty detailed history of McCain. It names names, and actually has quotes from these named people (military colleagues and the like).

I found his attitude about war and violence to be the most surprising. It's one thing to hear that they want to "win the war" and another to read that he actually encourages going to war. Ouch ouch ouch. If you aren't scared yet, you should be.

Time to make sure everyone you know is registered to vote. Including your dog [pit bull, of course].

PS: I'm seeing quite a few comments from people on the right who say the Rolling Stone should stick to reporting about music. Apparently these people are utterly clueless about the societal/political articles the magazine has been publishing for decades.

[scaeagles]

I have come to the conclusion that I will not be voting for McCain. I will be abstaining.

It isn't for any reasons the people here despise the man or his running mate, though some of the criticisms certainly come into play. Those have little effect on me, and anti McCain rhetoric is everywhere. It is rather what he says and does all by himself. I didn't mind his call to end the campain and go to Washington to work on the economic bailout (which sickens me in what it became, though that in't his fault - it is the fault of the despicable politicians everywhere, and the fault of Bush who is so deperate to sign anything that I don't know if I can truly blame the pack of scavengers out to get what they think will get them reelected by bribing their constituencies).

I don't think I can point to any one thing. He is no conservative. Palin may be, but that is of little concern to me, regardless of how well I thought she did overall in the debate. He will be just as bad for this country, if not worse, than Obama (please do not interpret this as in any way being supportive of Obama). I fear for this country no matter which of these men wins because they are both so horribly misguided.

My hope is that, in an Obama victory, the true conservatives will once again have a revival of the conservative ideology. I only hope that irreparable socialist damage is not done to the country prior to that.

The last straw? When he said he would ask Al Gore to head up the US efforts in working with the world on climate change. That is just one offense of far too many for me any longer.

Believe me, Obama and Biden make me sick as well. I just cannot bring myself to vote for McCain. Something may happen to change my mind, but I doubt it. He will win AZ so it amounts to a protest vote for me. Or more properly a lack of a vote in protest.

I can not bring myself to even think about politics anymore. While I'm sure I'll end up in here anyway, I don't know if I can even bring myself into these political discussions anymore. I can find almost nothing to be supportive of McCain on, and my criticisms of Obama have been typically not welcome.

May God bless the USA, because I don't have one ounce of optimism about where this country is headed. There is no one whom I believe is capable of leadership that is in or potentially in the position to do so. Not Obama, McCain, Pelosi, Reid, Gore, Clinton, any nameless republican leader (I can't even name one off the top of my head) in the house or senate....they are all crooks, liars.....politicians. All power hungry and against each other in bitterness and spitefulness, wallowing in their pathetic 9% congressional approval ratings and 30% Presidential.

Forgive my vomitous rantings. I truly am sick and defeated. I used to care. I just don't anymore.

[wendybeth]

I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from, Scaeagles- I really can. I still have a little bit of hope- not a lot, but enough to see me through one more campaign, barring any unforeseen occurrences. I'm sickened by the whole pork laden mess of a bailout, and everyone I know (Republican or Democrat) is as well. These politicians are in for a surprise come re-election. Our country is a mess, and I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. I have a feeling the next president is going to have a horrible time of it, regardless of who wins the election.

[innerSpaceman]

Wow, scaeagles and i are both protestation abstaining from voting for our respective party's candidates in state's where they each have a total lock.


The similarities are eerie.

[dlrp_bopazot]

hey here in France we've got French friies and Pizza with Mc Cain brand

http://picnic.ciao.com/fr/14182932.jpg

would you like to eat a Mc Cain tonight to taste . I can ship a Mc Cain if you d like lol

[Tenigma]

Wow Sceagles. I can really hear the anguish in your voice. It must have been heart-wrenching to have to come to your conclusion.

[Strangler Lewis]

What if they gave an election and nobody came?

(Actually, there's probably an answer for that in each state's rules for choosing electors in case of a tie.)

[3894]

What if they gave an election and nobody came?


I think the decision not to vote is boneheaded. This election is not about the candidates themselves. It's about the war, health care reform, and economics. Surely you can vote about those, even if you can't get behind a candidate.

Now back to my favorite subject: Gov. Palin. Don't you hate that term "Joe Six Pack"? Especially since her state of Alaska has dismal stats on alcohol abuse and its Medusa-hair of related problems: drunk driving, suicide, sexual assault, fetal alcohol syndrome ...

As my husband says, "Six beers is drunk, Governor Palin".

[innerSpaceman]

Don't you hate that term "Joe Six Pack"?
Nah ... i always think of a dude with good abs. :cool:





And I respectfully disagree about abstaining to vote for president, as I will be doing. That's NOT the same as abstaining to vote. I WILL be voting in this election, just not for the candidate I support from the choice of two. Since there's no way Obama can lose my state, I can "afford" for the sake of the war, healthcare, etc., to vote my conscience. BTW, I do not support Obama's stance on lots of important issues, the War first amongst them. He cannot get my vote when that vote won't matter a whit.

[3894]

I WILL be voting in this election, just not for the candidate I support from the choice of two.

Now I remember you're a Biden fan, iSm. Me, too.

[€uroMeinke]

The choice not to vote is also a choice. Election Boycots happen all over the world, especially to protest sham choices.

[3894]

The choice not to vote is also a choice.

I see your Jean-Paul Sartre and raise you an Albert Camus. :snap:

[JWBear]

Ugh... Just, ugh. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/05/palin.obama.terrorist.claim/?iref=mpstoryview)

Proof that a vote for McCain is a vote for the same Republican nastiness we've seen for the last 8 years.

[Gemini Cricket]

I see JW's ugh and I raise him a Fey (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/). And when I say 'Fey' I don't mean my mannerisms.
:D

[scaeagles]

A decision not to vote is just as valid as voting for either candidate. It is not the same as apathy. It is saying that both these choices are so aweful that they are not worthy of my vote.

I am not boneheaded. ISM is not boneheaded.

Should I come on here and say the decision to vote for Obama was boneheaded, even without mentioning anyone specifically, I would be called out, so I am calling 3894 out for calling both ISM and me boneheaded.

[JWBear]

That was hysterical. (The SNL bit, not Leo's post.)

[3894]

I am not boneheaded. ISM is not boneheaded. <snip!>

I am calling 3894 out for calling both ISM and me boneheaded.

Here's what I posted:

I think the decision not to vote is boneheaded.

There is a difference between saying a decision is X and saying a person is X. I consciously worded my post like that because, although I believe your decision is boneheaded, I do not believe that you are. You as a person and your political beliefs are not the same thing. My wording was not an attempt to weasel in a personal insult.

I do understand if your feelings are hurt. That was not my intent. I am very interested in why/how anyone could possibly not vote in this presidential election. This one is for the soul of America.

[scaeagles]

My feelings weren't hurt, 3894, but I certainly appreciate what you are saying and do thank you for your clarification. I just have no doubt that should I say the decision to vote for Obama was boneheaded, the posts in response would be vitriolic.

By not voting for either, what I am saying is that I'm tired of the crap choices we're supposed to support. What would make an INCREDIBLE statement is if the country as a whole had the attitude ISM and I do now (good lord, no wonder I'm depressed.....:) ) that we are going to vote but not support either candidate. Can you imagine what it would say if voter turnout at the polls was 70% but only 35% of those who voted made a vote for President? THAT would shake things up mightily.

This may very well be an election for the soul of America. I believe each of the candidates takes the soul straight to hell, and so by not voting, I make a(teeny tiny though it may be) statement that I am sick of the crap I'm supposed to vote for. That's more an indictment of the republican candidate from my standpoint than it is the dem.

[Strangler Lewis]

When both of you guys move to a state that's actually in play, then it will be a principled stand. You each have a possible worse outcome in mind between the two main candidates. Your principles are free riding on the efforts of others who make that outcome in your state unlikely.

[3894]

I just have no doubt that should I say the decision to vote for Obama was boneheaded, the posts in response would be vitriolic.

Which would be okay, IMO. This election inspires passion. Right now, this country is polarized.

The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/opinion/05rich.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin) has an interesting opinion dealio about Palin by Frank Rich. Apparently, there is some talk about flipping the ticket, making Palin the top and McCain the vice-president. Quick quote: She wants to be president, she thinks she can be president, she thinks she will be president. And perhaps soon. She often sounds like someone who sees herself as half-a-heartbeat away from the presidency. Or who is seen that way by her own camp, the hard-right G.O.P. base that never liked McCain anyway and views him as, at best, a White House place holder.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

When both of you guys move to a state that's actually in play, then it will be a principled stand. You each have a possible worse outcome in mind between the two main candidates. Your principles are free riding on the efforts of others who make that outcome in your state unlikely.True, the situation in their own states does affect their decision, and that decision in a state like Florida means something different. They have luxuries the others don't have, and I am glad you mentioned this. It's a good thing for non-voters to keep in mind.

Yet, we don't vote in a vacuum. Their decision makes sense for them in their states, and I can dig that, as I've been an abstainer for many years...though with the situation kinda flipped, as I leaned red but didn't worry about my state going blue.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Which would be okay, IMO. This election inspires passion. Right now, this country is polarized. You condone vitrol? I'm not a fan, myself.

Visible mojo for scaeagles, since I can't mojo you. I'm surprised that tapping Al Gore was the last straw....but I admit my inability to understand your politics. :) I agree, your decision not to vote is a decision, as is iSm's.

To anyone who is feeling down about the future...I suggest you read the book I'm reading (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthread.php?t=8637), about the next generation of politics. Hmm, actually, probably not good for scaeagles. But in the perspective of history, maybe it will make you feel better anyway.

[Alex]

It may be a good read but be wary of books that find patterns in history and then project them into the future. That is a very popular type of book/research, but the success rate at successful prediction is low.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It may be a good read but be wary of books that find patterns in history and then project them into the future. That is a very popular type of book/research, but the success rate at successful prediction is low.I am fully aware I sound pretty gullible, but the book talks about prior generational predictions and shows how they have borne out. This concept has been popular for study from the "Dewey Defeats Truman" moment onward, and analyzes why people felt they didn't work....but yeah, I'll stop now.

[scaeagles]

When both of you guys move to a state that's actually in play, then it will be a principled stand. You each have a possible worse outcome in mind between the two main candidates. Your principles are free riding on the efforts of others who make that outcome in your state unlikely.

This was actually rather thought provoking for me (not the usual just skip over want Strangler has to say :) ). You are indeed correct. I do have a possible worse outcome, but I think the victory of Obama is better in the long run for the conservative movement. I believe McCain will clearly be better in one area than Obama, being national defense, and that is the only reason I am not voting for Obama. I see Obama right out of the Jimmy Carter book of destroying the military, and in these times, that cannot be allowed to take place.

Convince me that Obama won't destroy our military capability, cut vital weapons programs, cut the size of our forces, or capitulate in the name of getting along.....and perhaps I'd vote for him. This is how far McCain has fallen in my view.

By the way, hell is still a very hot place, from what I understand, regardless of my last few posts, this one in particular.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Convince me that Obama won't destroy our military capability, cut vital weapons programs, cut the size of our forces, or capitulate in the name of getting along.....and perhaps I'd vote for him. This is how far McCain has fallen in my view.The case has been made, you choose not to believe the case. Biden made the case in the debate. Obama and the people who advise him have demonstrated time and again over the past decade that they understand the concept of consequences. They accurately predicted the result of the war in Iraq (sectarian violence, significant commitment and sacrifice on our part, and a bolstering of Al Quaeda in Afghanistan/Pakistan due to our resources being tied up elsewhere). Wheras McCain and those that advise him said it would be easy, that we could just ignore Afghanistan since we've already clearly won there, and that it would be a war against Al Quaeda.

So who's ideas have done more to weaken our military? The camp that seems to have a pretty good handle on where we should be fighting and what those fights might look like, or the camp that thinks war is a game that's won by running in as fast as you can and blowing sh*t up, who cares if you're actually fighting the right enemy, or if you're adequately prepared, or have any idea of what might be involved in running that war.

[scaeagles]

The case has been made, you choose not to believe the case. Biden made the case in the debate.

Biden lied a few times regarding that as well (I can list them specifically if I need to). Obama was against the surge, poor judgement indeed. Biden was adament that Obama was not prepared to be commander in chief prior to joining the ticket. Politics then? Perhaps. But true nonetheless.

Weakening the military also includes cancelling weapons programs, which I don't believe McCain would do.

Choose not to believe them? Well, considering they are poorly presented arguments, yeah, I don't believe them.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'll let GD defend his arguments.

I suppose you wouldn't be one to listen to the idea that we should spend less on the military than we do now. The comparisons in how much we spend in Iraq and how much we spend building infrastructure in Afghanistan are ridiculous. Biden alluded to this, not sure if you'd call them lies.

[3894]

Obama was against the surge, poor judgement indeed.

According to Bob Woodward's new book The War Within, so was the president's advisory committee, which included James Bakker, Lee Hamilton, Sandra Day O'Connor, some retired generals.

[bewitched]

I saw a bumper sticker today that said:

Palin
McCain


Yep, Palin was bigger and on the top...:rolleyes: :confused:

[scaeagles]

I'll let GD defend his arguments.

I suppose you wouldn't be one to listen to the idea that we should spend less on the military than we do now. The comparisons in how much we spend in Iraq and how much we spend building infrastructure in Afghanistan are ridiculous. Biden alluded to this, not sure if you'd call them lies.

He alluded to this, yes, and his numbers were way, way off from what I've read. I did include that in my thinking of what he lied about.

I will never accept the argument of spending less on the military with an increasingly aggressive Russia, China developing newer technologies and spending on military through the nose, and the fact that national defense is one of the only specifically constitutionally mandated functions of the federal government.

[scaeagles]

According to Bob Woodward's new book The War Within, so was the president's advisory committee, which included James Bakker, Lee Hamilton, Sandra Day O'Connor, some retired generals.

Right (well I assume so. Bob Woodward isn't someone I necessarily take at his word, but that's another story). And Bush didn't support it either, for far too long a time. McCain, though my vote post still stands, got this exactly right and was pushing for a surge long before it happened.

[bewitched]

Wow, scaeagles and i are both protestation abstaining from voting for our respective party's candidates in state's where they each have a total lock.


The similarities are eerie.

I'm not abstaining, but I am writing in the person I thought would be a far better choice to run our country at this moment in time, Hillary Clinton. Like scaeagles and iSm, I can afford to do this because Kansas is a lock for McCain; if I thought it would be close, I'd vote for Obama. I think he will be fine but he wasn't my choice.

Another thing influencing my decision is my 8yo daughter. She caucused with me (for Clinton) she has been interested in the election and was excited by the idea of a woman president (although that was not the reason I supported Clinton, just a bonus). She has always gone to vote with me and, since she was old enough, has actually pushed the pertinent buttons (or filled in the circles if I voted early). I want her to know that you don't HAVE to tread the party line. That in this country, you are free to vote for whomever you believe in; that we have a 2 party system but it is not the be all end all of how (or for whom) you must vote.

So, this election, I will vote my conscience and in doing so, teach O a little about the political process along the way. (And then we'll move onto the electoral college which oughta really screw with her head.)

[Betty]

I will never accept the argument of spending less on the military with an increasingly aggressive Russia, China developing newer technologies and spending on military through the nose

Wouldn't you agree that with the war in Iraq we too are "spending on military through the nose"? Yes - unlike Russia and China, how much benefit are we really seeing with that money by comparison?

I guess that depends on how much you feel the war is benefiting us.

[scaeagles]

No. You have to spend what it takes to get the job done. This is not intended to get tinto a discussion as to if we should be there or not - that has been discussed ad infinitum here. It is simply that you have to finish what you start.

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, like the War on Drugs? That can NEVER be finished. Or the War on Terror, that can likewise NEVER be finished.


Don't like the concept wars? How 'bout that War in Vietnam that was never really finished ... just pretty much abandoned. So why "can't" we do that when retreat proves to be the better part of valor?

[scaeagles]

Concept wars are indeed not what I was speaking of, and I think that's obvious.

As far as Vietnam, yes, we never finished the job there....but it look at what happened in Vietnam after we left. What would be good about that? Retreat was certainly not the better part of valor. The Vietnamese were slaughtered by the thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands - I'm not exactly sure how many perished in the reeducation camps) and who knows how many Vietnamese boat people died.

[innerSpaceman]

Yes, it was horrible. We do not have the power to stop history, or to stop evil. It may be stupid to get into areas were a power vacuum or our or another element's causing results in regional hatreds, slaughters, and unspeakable atrocities on an unimainable scale. But it's stupider, imo, to then have to ...what?... stay forever to now prevent those forces from being unleashed? Our finger in the dam forever and ever because of our international military blunder? Commitment to drain our country's treasury and young human resources to pay for such militadventurism mistakes for all time?

[scaeagles]

I suppose we view the current situation differently, because it is improving and it is not an indefinite thing we are facing. We will always have a military presence there, but I view that as the same thing as having a presence in Japan or Germany or South Korea.

Regardles of that, I am not one for abandoning commitments. We can debate the price being paid, but in the long run, I believe the price is higher should we stop (a great example over the long term is Reagan and Afghnaistan after the Soviets pulled out).

[Tom]

I am asking, because I don't know, but did Japan, Germany or Korea before their respective wars have internal conflicts like the Sunni/Shiite/Kurd conflicts in Iraq, conflicts between different ethnic or religious groups within the country that were violent and centuries old? Because if they didn't, it would seem to me likely that our long-term military presence in Iraq will be very different than in those other countries.

[scaeagles]

Not to my knwledge, but Japan and Germany had those loyal to their fallen leaders and governments and fought for years after the end of WWII. Japan might be considered a bit similar to the current situation in that the populace had viewed their emporer as a god, so the religious aspect comes into it. Germany....nothing like it, really.

[3894]

I suppose we view the current situation differently, because it is improving and it is not an indefinite thing we are facing.

It depends on how you define victory. If victory is a stable, basically uncorrupt, representative, non-repressive government, then we're talking about a sea change. Who knows how long that will take.

This idea about victory and defeat is one of the things I find most frustrating about McCain. He never defines victory, yet postures a lot about it. It is only a feeling but it seems to me that in the Iraq War McCain is reliving the unfinished business of Vietnam 40 years too late.

[scaeagles]

If victory means a basically uncorrupt government than we should overthrow our own.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If victory means a basically uncorrupt government than we should overthrow our own.
So define victory. Because no one else has.

[innerSpaceman]

If victory means a basically uncorrupt government than we should overthrow our own.
When do we start?


Seriously, the biggest thing gone wrong with our government is we can no longer overthrow it. Setting up a future overthrow was endemic to the Declaration of Independence ... and technology has progressed to the point where the populace of our nation could never mount a successul insurrection against our tyrannical government so long as the military and police powers remain under their control.

[JWBear]

The ability of the populace to stand up to a tyranical government was the main reason for the second amendment.

[scaeagles]

You are indeed correct (oringially meant for ISM but it applies to JW as well).

Victory....my definition doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Establishment of a constitutional democracy (whether parliamentary, direct, representative, whatever) in which the elected government has the capability militarily to protect itself and the people from the overthrow of that government.

This is as far as I am comfortable defining it. Do I hope it goes beyond that? Certainly, in terms of establishing an ally and a US friendly democracy in the region.

Go ahead. Rip it apart. I'm sure it will be.

[JWBear]

...Victory....my definition doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Establishment of a constitutional democracy (whether parliamentary, direct, representative, whatever) in which the elected government has the capability militarily to protect itself and the people from the overthrow of that government.

This is as far as I am comfortable defining it. Do I hope it goes beyond that? Certainly, in terms of establishing an ally and a US friendly democracy in the region.

Go ahead. Rip it apart. I'm sure it will be.

But, who defines what it takes to meet that goal? And who decides when it has been met? The military? Congress? The Iraqis? The President? The UN? Bush's horoscope? The casting of bones?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Regardles of that, I am not one for abandoning commitments. We can debate the price being paid, but in the long run, I believe the price is higher should we stop (a great example over the long term is Reagan and Afghnaistan after the Soviets pulled out).
I don't disagree. And I don't think Obama disagrees, though there's some disagreement with the best method to succeed. I have never been for a summary troop draw down. I AM in favor of setting more concrete goals and forcing the Iraqi government to stand up and take care of its own sh*t. I believe Obama will do that. Suggesting that Obama wants to just abandon Iraq with no plan at all is as absurd as suggesting he wants to sit down and have tea with Ahmedinejad. It's a grossly distorted interpretation of his position. All he wants is to stop playing nanny in Iraq and start putting the responsibility on Iraqis to take control of their own country.

No. You have to spend what it takes to get the job done. This is not intended to get tinto a discussion as to if we should be there or not - that has been discussed ad infinitum here. It is simply that you have to finish what you start.Again, I do not fundamentally disagree. But as much as you don't want it to be about whether we should be there or not, that IS a crux, if not the crux, of the discussion. Because to me the question is, who has the clarity of judgment to make the right decisions going forward, whether it be on how to finish the job we stumbled blindly into, or whether to wage more war elsewhere. And I believe Obama to possess better judgment.

You can point to the surge all you want. There is no proof that the surge is the only reason things have improved there, or that they wouldn't improved without the surge. But hey, I'll give the administration that one, let's say the surge was the difference maker. That's one good decision after boatloads of awful ones, and the first time that Bush actually decided to listen to the generals on the ground. And it's one that's about controlling a specific situation in the short term. It's not remotely on the same scale as deciding whether to invade another country and understanding the large scale ramifications. I believe Obama (and his advisors) have better judgment on that scale. And perhaps Obama doesn't have the chops for handling the smaller scale day-to-day combat decisions (as if Bush does), but I expect him to defer to those that do. For instance, Patreus's replacement, Odierno, who has already said he expects to start calling for significant troop reductions of the next year, that weak, unpatriotic bastard.

A strong military is important. However, I do not think that throwing money down the military drain, using force to shove democracy down the world's throat, and threatening countries with invasion are signs of a strong military.

[scaeagles]

Just to briefly address one point - yes, Bush did not make good decisions. We're not talking about Bush, though, and his judgement, which is the grand strategy of Obama.....to say McCain = Bush. I don't think they are equivalent. Again, I think McCain would have run this vastly differently, as his push for the surge....18 months was it? ...before it happened.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Perhaps McCain may have run the war on the ground differently, I don't doubt that he would have done a far better job than Bush/Cheney at listening to the commanders rather than try to run it himself. Which is exactly what Obama will do.

I'm far more worried about the large scale world politics decisions, and in that regard, McCain is very much in line with Bush, and very much a "war first" mentality. He has demonstrated time and again that, with all the time we've been there, with all the knowledge he supposedly has by visiting Iraq, he has a very poor grasp of who the people we are fighting are. "How well do we have to know a people before we can bomb them?" John Stewart asked, facetiously, recently.

It's the job of generals to run wars. Obama can listen to generals as well as anyone. It's the job of the President to shape global policy and to understand the consequences of our country's actions beyond simply "me shoot enemy, me bigger country". McCain has not demonstrated that capacity, Obama has.

[Gemini Cricket]

I was curious to read what everyone's reaction was to Obama's "Keating Economics" documentary. McCain and the Keating Five.

Is this a smart move by the Obama camp? Will this affect McCain votes?

Link to video. (http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/keatingvideo)



***I wasn't sure whether to post it in the McCain thread or the Obama thread. So I posted it here since the subject of the doco was McCain.***

[Ghoulish Delight]

My reaction is that it's as much of a red herring/distortion as McCain's coming attempts to link Obama to various nefarious characters. Which makes it a very smart move. It keeps the conversation on the economy, something McCain desperately wants to change, and it serves as a perfect counterpoint to the bogus swift-boat attempts Obama's already been subject to. I don't like that he has to do it, but I think he's doing it well.

[Tenigma]

I'm far more worried about the large scale world politics decisions, and in that regard, McCain is very much in line with Bush, and very much a "war first" mentality.

Did you read the Doonesbury from yesterday (Sunday) (http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/db/2008/db081005.gif)? You see some soldiers in Iraq, chatting about McCain. One of them says, "Mac sees Iraq as a chance to re-fight Viet Nam, to show that we really CAN win an open-ended war regardless of cost."

That hit me like a ton of bricks, because I never really quite thought of it that way.

The path of the Iraq war for McCain is, in my opinion, highly personal for him. As someone who was held captive as a POW in Viet Nam, which was a very unpopular war that we didn't win, I can really how "winning in Iraq" could be so important for him. People used to joke about George W. Bush wanting to go and "finish the job daddy didn't finish" in Iraq and I think it's something akin to that.

With that in mind, do any of us REALLY want McCain in charge? Do we REALLY want to spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives just so he could deal with his personal feeling of inferiority or incompetence due to whatever residual issues he has from Viet Nam? Hell no!

I was curious to read what everyone's reaction was to Obama's "Keating Economics" documentary. McCain and the Keating Five.

One thing I think was both really smart on the part of as well as extraordinarily fortuitous for the Obama campaign, is that this the scandal happens to be about the financial industry. I mean, had McCain's scandal been that an affair two decades ago, then Obama airing a video about it would be kind of silly. But this is directly related to what's relevant NOW. So in that way I think they have the upper hand.

It keeps the conversation on the economy, something McCain desperately wants to change, and it serves as a perfect counterpoint to the bogus swift-boat attempts Obama's already been subject to. I don't like that he has to do it, but I think he's doing it well.

Exactly.

Camp McCain: Rezko!!! Ayers!!! Wright!!! = Old news, mud-slinging

Camp Obama: Keating 5. Savings and loan debacle. Fraud. Taxpayer dollars. Economy = Relevant, timely.

Obama wins either way.

Such pwnage makes me happy.

[Ruthie]

My reaction is that it's as much of a red herring/distortion as McCain's coming attempts to link Obama to various nefarious characters. Which makes it a very smart move. It keeps the conversation on the economy, something McCain desperately wants to change, and it serves as a perfect counterpoint to the bogus swift-boat attempts Obama's already been subject to. I don't like that he has to do it, but I think he's doing it well.

Exactly my reaction!

[Ghoulish Delight]

There goes that maverick, Palin (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/06/palin-goes-against-mccain_n_132187.html), shootin' off her mouth again.

"To tell you the truth, Bill, I don't know why that association [between Obama and Rev. Wright] isn't discussed more, because those were appalling things that that pastor had said about our great country, and to have sat in the pews for 20 years and listened to that -- with, I don't know, a sense of condoning it, I guess, because he didn't get up and leave -- to me, that does say something about character. But, you know, I guess that would be a John McCain call on whether he wants to bring that up."

Real class act, that one.

[Not Afraid]

Palin is akin to a smarmy high school girl.

[Snowflake]

Palin is akin to a smarmy high school girl.

Gidget Goes to Washington

[Tenigma]

Palin is akin to a smarmy high school girl.

I don't know about smarmy, but a number of people have referred to her as "the mean girl."

[Gemini Cricket]

There goes that maverick, Palin (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/06/palin-goes-against-mccain_n_132187.html), shootin' off her mouth again.

Real class act, that one.
While we're at it, let's bring up Palin's minister and witchcraft...

[Morrigoon]

Heathers?

[Ghoulish Delight]

McCain's got two winners to choose from - Hagee and Parsley.

[Not Afraid]

Heathers is perfect!

[Snowflake]

and I've not seen it posted here. Damned funny in a tiara!

(Of course, my own high school pics, no doubt if they saw the light of day, would spark fits of laughter so long and loud, you'd die of laughter)

743

[Gemini Cricket]

There's just no way to look cool playing a flute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0OZ9W2K_z0).

[The Lovely Mrs. tod]

Well, being a sucker for talent competitions I not only stayed through the whole performance on You Tube I then, being very busy at work, decided to wander around for awhile until I came across Palin and Charlie Rose. As I'm giving a fairly decent impression of someone who's actually doing something for her check I couldn't have the sound up too loud, so the substance of what she was saying wasn't easy to hear.

But I could hear her, and see her. And she wasn't winking, she wasn't talking to YOU, Joe Sixpack, and she wasn't doing a bad impression of Frances McDormand in "Fargo."

So now I'm wondering, who's bright idea was THAT?

[Strangler Lewis]

"Maverick" McCain Does The Bidding Of The Oil Industry. (http://www.jibjab.com/view/237370)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'm sure you guys heard about this (http://keatingeconomics.com/). The one basic concept - that McCain took money from Keating, then defended him, and ended up in front of the ethics committee - is plain enough.

[bewitched]

I've decided that the constant referral by Palin to "our great country" is only slightly less annoying than "Maverick"

:rolleyes:

[JWBear]

Enjoyed Palin Bingo? Now there's McCain McLiar bingo! (http://pinocchiopolitics.org/bingo.htm)

[3894]

Enjoyed Palin Bingo? Now there's McCain McLiar bingo! (http://pinocchiopolitics.org/bingo.htm)

Oh, I wish I'd had that for last night! :snap:

Edited to add:

From Cecile Richards, President of Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Sarah Palin: The Gift that Keeps on Giving
By now probably everyone in the greater Planned Parenthood family knows that a viral e-mail campaign was started a couple of weeks ago, suggesting that folks make a contribution to Planned Parenthood Federation of America in the name of Sarah Palin, and sending them to www.plannedparenthood.org to do so — and they did.
By last Friday, more than $1,000,000 had been donated. More than 38,000 folks made a contribution to Planned Parenthood in the name of Sarah Palin. The good news is that, because the contributions came in online, all the money is shared with PPFA affiliates, so this viral campaign will have the affect of benefiting virtually every affiliate in the country — PPFA has had contributions from every single state! This morning PPFA began shipping the acknowledgment cards — 8,000 cards were boxed up and sent out just today, and all week PPFA will be sending more.
And it doesn’t stop there — after hearing that her song, “Independence Day,” sung by Martina McBride, was used to introduce Sarah Palin at a rally, singer/songwriter Gretchen Peters took matters into her own hands. Gretchen will be joining all those who have so far responded to the viral e-mail by donating her royalties from “Independence Day” to Planned Parenthood.

If you want to check the song out for yourself, it’s on YouTube: here - safe for work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYENO6r5vVo)

[Gemini Cricket]

The latest McCain gaffe:
"My fellow prisoners" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYFm5kK4f1k&eurl=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/08/mccain-calls-americans-hi_n_133037.html)
:D

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, so tell me he's not trying to re-live Vietnam and correct everything that went so horribly wrong.


I admit it, I'd like to do that with my life, too.



But my hat's not in the ring to run the prison camp, er, the country.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Maverick. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/weekinreview/05schwartz.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

[innerSpaceman]

Say it, John. Moooooo.

[Gemini Cricket]

John McCain and Sarah Palin were backstage, and Lehigh County GOP Chairman Bill Platt was warming up the crowd of 6,000 at a rally here for the Republican ticket.
"Think about how you'll feel on November 5 if you wake up in the morning and see the news, that Barack Obama -- that Barack Hussein Obama -- is the president-elect of the United States," Platt said. The audience at the Lehigh University arena booed at the thought of it.
Cindy McCain implied that Obama was trying to harm her son. "My son . . . has served on the front lines," she told the crowd, with her husband and Palin standing behind her. "Let me tell you, the day Senator Obama decided to cast a vote not to fund my son when he was serving . . . sent a cold chill through my body, let me tell you. I suggest that Senator Obama change shoes with me for just one day and see what it means to have a loved one serving in the armed forces, and, more importantly, serving in harm's way."Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/08/AR2008100803601_pf.html)

[wendybeth]

Maverick. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/weekinreview/05schwartz.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

Oh, that's just awesome. :D

[3894]

But do you think Cindy McCain connects with anyone?

I live in the epicenter of the Joe Six-Pack part of Wisconsin. We are traditionally very pro-union here and go Democratic 110% of the time. However, we are also one of the whitest Congessional constituencies. This area of the state could go either way this time and for racist reasons, is my hunch. Obama's Chicago is a couple of hours by car but it might as well be on the other side of the moon.

McCain is making a speech at an airplane hanger in our small regional airport. The 2,500 tickets to the event flew out the window.

On the other hand, yesterday my hubbo was in a conversation with three women you might think would be dyed-in-the-wool Palin fans. Quite the opposite. They were very judgemental of Palin's mothering, particularly wanting to know why Bristol Palin doesn't seem to have any aspirations to go to tech school or college. They said they were voting Obama.

[innerSpaceman]

I wonder how cold Cindy felt when her husband John voted against the very same bill, the only difference being the presence of the timetable. She mentions not that Obama voted in favor of the very same bill when the timetable was in it. Oh, but she nelects to tell the hungry crowd of raving idiots that her husband John refused to fund the safety of their bloodline son and heir when a way to send him home into their loving arms sooner was included.

How cold indeed. How cold she must feel to not be a living human being like we, one with honor and integrity, one with a trust in truth and not a lust for power.

How very cold indeed.

[Gemini Cricket]

You know, in all honesty, I'd have a beer with Sarah Palin, Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama. But I would be afraid of getting frostbite around Cindy McCain. She reminds me of Nicole Kidman from the Golden Compass or Nicole Kidman from Stepford Wives. Brrr, chilly!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

But would you have a beer with Nicole Kidman?

[Gemini Cricket]

But would you have a beer with Nicole Kidman?
In a New York minute.
:)

[Gemini Cricket]

Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin abused her power as Alaska's governor by trying to get her ex-brother-in-law fired from the state police, a state investigator's report concluded Friday."Gov. Palin knowingly permitted a situation to continue where impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda," the report states.
Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan's refusal to fire State Trooper Mike Wooten from the state police force was "likely a contributing factor" to Monegan's July dismissal, but Palin had the authority as governor to fire him, the report by former Anchorage prosecutor Stephen Branchflower states.
Source (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/10/palin.investigation/index.html)

[wendybeth]

But...but....she already cleared herself of this yesterday!

[3894]

Palin issued a statement clearing and exonerating herself of any and all wrongdoing, therefore she’s cleared and exonerated, right? Pardoned by the governor of Alaska, right?

I suggest we all adopt her MO. So when the hubbo launches an investigation of just what happened to that half bag of chocolate chips that I secretly ate, I will clear, exonerate, and pardon myself.

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, I can't wait to pardon myself for a number of things. I'm gonna start making a list.

[CoasterMatt]

Palin Denies She Abused Power (http://littlethomsblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/palin-denies-she-abused-power.html)

[Ghoulish Delight]

McCain is now trying a kinder, gentler campaign. Too bad he's already courted all of the country's ignorant hate mongers to support him, they don't seem happy about the turn of events:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27130171/







This post brought to you by drunken nakedness

[Ghoulish Delight]

Wait, I just noticed this:

McCain himself drew boos at a town-hall meeting Friday in Minnesota when he defended Obama after a supporter said he feared what would happen if Obama were elected president. He also cut short a woman who said Obama was an Arab, and he called his rival "a decent, family man."

As if A) "Arab" is an insult, and B) "decent family man" is the opposite of Arab. :mad:

[scaeagles]

Oh, geez....I have made my disdain of McCain clear, but that's ridicuous, GD. He stops a woman from saying something false about Obama and says he's a decent guy. Of course he wasn't saying anything close to that being an Arab means you can't be a decent family man.

Sheesh.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't really think it says much about him, so much as it says about who he's talking to. That "he's a decent family man" is how he has to counter, "He's an Arab!" That digusts me.

[scaeagles]

OK....I can buy that. Thanks for clarifying.

[CoasterMatt]

Hockey Fans Voice Their Opinion of Sarah Palin (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/11/palin-booed-at-nhl-game-in-philadelphia/)

I wish I could have been there... :)

[Isaac]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/zapppop/SarahPalin.jpg

[flippyshark]

Best Prayer Ever!

The Rev. Arnold Conrad gave an invocation before John McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa. It's the best prayer before a presidential rally ever! Here is the video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g0d3_KE5js) The good Reverend actually tells his own god, the presumed sovereign and omnipotent deity, that His holy reputation is on the line if He lets Obama win! I can't tell you how this tickles me. (Not in a partisan way. I'm not offended by it, I'm in flipping hysterics. And I'm not about to blame McCain for it, either.) There are just so many things wrong with this, including the droll notion that an Obama victory will somehow give greater credence to rival gods, including Allah, Hindu (sic) and Buddha (also sic).

So, here's the thing - in the event that Obama wins, I can't wait to hear what Reverend Arnold has to say to Yahweh about it.

I honestly expect to hear other ministers and religious leaders distance themselves from this one, as it's so transparently dippy.

Okay, that's all.

[3894]

Here's something even more obscene than Isaac's post above:

First, Palin pushed hard, along with sport hunting and guiding interests, to help defeat a ballot initiative that would have stopped the state’s current aerial wolf control program, which had been criticized by the National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council for flawed science. Now her administration has pointedly refused to respond to repeated public information requests (I’m one of the petitioners, and a potential litigant), regarding the apparently illegal killing of 14 wolf pups at their dens on the Alaska Peninsula this spring by state personnel, including two high-level Department of Fish and Game administrators. A biologist at the scene admitted to an independent wolf scientist that the 6-week-old pups were held down and shot in the head, one by one. This inhumane practice, known as “denning,” has been illegal for 40 years. But a simple request for information on the details of this operation, including to what extent the governor was involved in the decision, has resulted in a typical Palinesque roadblock and a string of untruths.

Source here. (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/11/sarah_palin_alaska/index.html)

[Moonliner]

Here's something even more obscene than Isaac's post above:



Source here. (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/11/sarah_palin_alaska/index.html)

Palin Shoots Puppies!


Really, what more do you need to know?

[3894]

Palin Shoots Puppies!


Really, what more do you need to know?


Olbermann was wondering last night if Palin could be a Democratic Party operative, she's that bad for the McCain ticket.

[Snowflake]

752

Bwahahahaaaaaaaa! Old news, yes, but this new caption cracked me up!

[Not Afraid]

Best Prayer Ever!

The Rev. Arnold Conrad gave an invocation before John McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa. It's the best prayer before a presidential rally ever! Here is the video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g0d3_KE5js) The good Reverend actually tells his own god, the presumed sovereign and omnipotent deity, that His holy reputation is on the line if He lets Obama win! I can't tell you how this tickles me. (Not in a partisan way. I'm not offended by it, I'm in flipping hysterics. And I'm not about to blame McCain for it, either.) There are just so many things wrong with this, including the droll notion that an Obama victory will somehow give greater credence to rival gods, including Allah, Hindu (sic) and Buddha (also sic).

So, here's the thing - in the event that Obama wins, I can't wait to hear what Reverend Arnold has to say to Yahweh about it.

I honestly expect to hear other ministers and religious leaders distance themselves from this one, as it's so transparently dippy.

Okay, that's all.

WOW! Just WOW!

Dear God, can we talk about your reputation? People are talking smack about you behind your back. You need to watch yourself for our sakes. Get a CLUE, God!

I did really love the pantheistic view and acknowledgment that other gods exist - and that they may be more powerful.