Toby Keith - Advocate of lynching?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

So at the end of last month, HuffPost blogger Max Blumenthal wrote about Toby Keith's song, "Beer for my Horses." He thinks it advocates lynching. Here is the article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/toby-keiths-pro-lynching_b_115526.html), here is the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZUHFuklo8), and here are the lyrics. What do you think?

Well a man come on the 6 o'clock news
said somebody's been shot
somebody's been abused
somebody blew up a building
somebody stole a car
somebody got away
somebody didn't get to far yeah
they didn't get too far

Grandpappy told my pappy back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he'd done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street
For all the people to see

That Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line
When the gun smoke settles we'll sing a victory tune
And we'll all meet back at the local saloon
And we'll raise up our glasses against evil forces singing
whiskey for my men, beer for my horses

We got too many gangsters doing dirty deeds
too much corruption and crime in the streets
It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground
Send 'em all to their maker and he'll settle 'em down
You can bet he'll set 'em down...

[innerSpaceman]

Yep, lynching.


But, hey, all all for street justice if it means lynching all Gang Members on masse at the corner of Wilshire and 6th.

[Moonliner]

Agreed, the song is clearly talking about vigilantism not racism.

Given how much hatred/racism there is in the world, I hardly see the need to go out of ones way to try and find it where it is not.

[BarTopDancer]

That song came out in 2003 so Max is a bit late.

Love that song, and no I don't think it advocates racially motivated lynching. He's singing about history, and in history there was racially motivated lynching. It doesn't mean that vigilantism (which it is promoting) is now racially motivated.

It also features Willie Nelson.

[Gemini Cricket]

Not a fan of Toby Keith.
A song goes through many people's hands before it's released. Didn't anyone say, 'Hey, maybe this could be taken as you being pro-lynching, Mr. Keith.'?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I think it only came to his attention because Keith recently sang it on Colbert Report to promote his upcoming movie which shares a title.

And honestly, I dunno if I agree with all of you. The only "criminals" shown in the music video are minorities. And the vigilante public hanging from his grandpappy's time was traditionally done to minorities. Sure, it was done to others. But what image do you see in your mind when you hear someone advocate hanging people from trees? I see the image posted in the blog. I think of all of the people who were wrongfully killed that way. And they're mostly minorities.

[Moonliner]

That song came out in 2003 so Max is a bit late.

Love that song, and no I don't think it advocates lynching.

It also features Willie Nelson.

"Hang them high in the street. For all the people to see."

I think it clearly advocates for lynching, just not racially motivated lynching.

[innerSpaceman]

Let's not pull punches, the song is about hanging those whom I can't even type because of the bad-word filter.


Alas, most of the people I want to lynch happen to be people of color as well. But I would put the noose around their necks myself.

[Moonliner]

I think it only came to his attention because Keith recently sang it on Colbert Report to promote his upcoming movie which shares a title.

And honestly, I dunno if I agree with all of you. The only "criminals" shown in the music video are minorities. And the vigilante public hanging from his grandpappy's time was traditionally done to minorities. Sure, it was done to others. But what image do you see in your mind when you hear someone advocate hanging people from trees? I see the image posted in the blog. I think of all of the people who were wrongfully killed that way. And they're mostly minorities.

Saddle up, gun smoke, local saloon, whisky.... These all conjure up images of the wild west not Mississippi.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

"Hang them high in the street. For all the people to see."

I think it clearly advocates for lynching, just not racially motivated lynching.

OK, OK. You're right, the song itself isn't promoting racially-motivated lynching. I think the video may be. And history is full of racially-motivated lynching disguised as justice (and doled out all too often to innocent people.)

[BarTopDancer]

"Hang them high in the street. For all the people to see."

I think it clearly advocates for lynching, just not racially motivated lynching.

Unfortunately I was posting during a mini-crisis at work and hit submit before finishing.

Those are my thoughts, and I am going to edit my post to reflect them.

[Moonliner]

OK, OK. You're right, the song itself isn't promoting racially-motivated lynching. I think the video may be. And history is full of racially-motivated lynching disguised as justice (and doled out all too often to innocent people.)

You can say the same thing about justice. History is full of racially-motivated crimes disguised as justice. White juries against black defendants, local sheriff's abusing their power etc... Does that make the Pledge of Allegiance racist because it mentions justice?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

This is entirely true; it's not a fair world and all kinds of people have suffered in different ways, at the hands of others. Whether it be by bench or tree. Still - I'd prefer my justice to be doled out through a legal system instead of by mob rule. And I'd prefer it didn't involve death.

[Moonliner]

This is entirely true; it's not a fair world and all kinds of people have suffered in different ways, at the hands of others. Whether it be by bench or tree. Still - I'd prefer my justice to be doled out through a legal system instead of by mob rule. And I'd prefer it didn't involve death.

That is a fair criticism of the song. It does advocate for vigilantism justice. Still it's just a song and not a political manifesto. I would tend to treat it as puffery more than a call to action. Plus it has a good beat and I can line dance to it...

[BarTopDancer]

I'd like to remind everyone that it came out in 2003. I understand that the movie is coming out now (and I have no idea what it's about). Think of the political climate in 2003 when it was released. It was probably written a year or so before that. Much like Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue advocates ass-kicking back in 2001.

Last time I checked Toby keith was a country music singer, not a political activist. If Bono sang this type of song I may have a different opinion since he is a singer and a political activist (for peace).

[Strangler Lewis]

Last time I checked, Toby Keith was a vocal supporter of the Republican party, which prides itself on being anti-crime and not overly preoccupied with due process.

[Strangler Lewis]

Last time I checked, the same excuse was made for Rush Limbaugh every time he put his foot in it. "Hey, he's an entertainer. He has no impact." Yet somehow when damaging filth and stupidity emanates from a presumptively liberal Hollywood source, the right can't seem to say "Hey, it's only a movie."

[Moonliner]

Last time I checked, the same excuse was made for Rush Limbaugh every time he put his foot in it. "Hey, he's an entertainer. He has no impact." Yet somehow when damaging filth and stupidity emanates from a presumptively liberal Hollywood source, the right can't seem to say "Hey, it's only a movie."

Limbaugh is a political commentator who is trying to have a political impact. So yes, calling Rush an "entertainer" is BS.

However I don't think this song is a call to arms in the same way as Rush trying to sabotage the Democratic primaries by encouraging Republicans to vote in them. Terms like "damaging filth" and "stupidity" hardly apply.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Well, I honestly don't care if you're a political activist, a singer or my next-door-neighbor. If you're glorifying mob-rule public hangings, I don't have much respect for you.

[Strangler Lewis]

Well, now I've watched the video, and I have to say I have no idea what point is trying to be made. On the one hand, the video appears to portray legitimate crime solving techniques. On the other hand, other parts of the video and the lyrics very clearly say that you can trust a bunch of drunks with guns who happen to be standing around a bar to figure out truth and dispense justice.

[Alex]

I have no idea what is in the video (can't watch it from where I am).

But to me the lyrics presented, with their talk of mounting up horses is (despite the screwed up chronology of it being his grandfather) a call back not to the racial lynching but the mystique of the frontier west, its instant justice, and the posse protecting the homesteads.

Also, the lyrics to me don't feel so much like a literal call for the return of posses and lynching but rather to an idea that punishment has become soft and so removed from the action that it is ineffective. That we need to firm up and return an idea of swiftness and sternness to our system of justice.

That's how I'd read it anyway. However, can a man working in a musical genre most closely associated with white Southerners expect to reference vigilante hanging in any connection at all with modern poverty driven crime without someone eventually making a racial lynching connection? No, I wouldn't say so.

That doesn't mean it was his intent, but it isn't an unreasonable reading of it either.

[BarTopDancer]

Is that song from Pineapple Express promoting terrorism?

[Alex]

Probably. The movie certainly does.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

The title song? What lyrics suggest that?

But surely you can see how a song idealizing a time when people where punished by hanging them from trees could be - with benefit of doubt here - misconstrued?

[Alex]

By the way, my last post was not particularly serious. Pineapple Express does not directly advocate for terrorism. Being soundtrack clueless I have no idea what song is in question.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Oh, I figured - you posted after I started typing but before I actually posted. I was replying directly to BTD because I really AM curious about what she means.

[BarTopDancer]

The title song? What lyrics suggest that?

I don't know what song and I have no desire to see the movie. I keep hearing Kevin and Bean talk about some song from the movie (maybe it's by MIA) that supposedly promotes terrorism with lyrics about blowing up buses.

But surely you can see how a song idealizing a time when people where punished by hanging them from trees could be - with benefit of doubt here - misconstrued?

No, really I can't. I think people are reading way to much into this song. It's a story being told from father to son then grandfather to son. They talk about how justice was done in their day, how criminals are getting away with so much these days and the law needs to straighten up and start doing better. No where does it say go out and hang your [black] neighbor. Back in the day, that is what was done. Not go do it now. History is history. We're lucky that CA doesn't have such a turbulent or racially charged history like states in the South.

[Strangler Lewis]

It's only a story worth telling if it has useful truths, i.e., that "back in the day" they did it right, and we do it wrong. I also think that since Toby Keith and the other doofus wear Guardian Angels berets and that it directs its focus to gangsters in the streets that the song ultimately yearns for vigilantes who rid the streets of minority criminals.

Finally, it struck me that as he was driven off, the serial killer with the middle eastern features cast a longing look at the doofus decoy in drag, suggesting to me that he was killing hookers to compensate for the fact that he was gay. And that was the worst fight scene I've seen in some time.

[BarTopDancer]

I'll have to watch the video when I get home - but I seem to recall the grandfather wanting to pass his ways down to the father and grandson but the father said no and took away the gun.

Those same truths can be useful in what not to do.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Regardless of what the video says, these lyrics really bother me: "Find a tall oak tree/round up all of them bad boys/Hang them high in the street/For all the people to see." I definitely think the reminiscing grandfather is implying that it was the better way to do things. I definitely think it's not.

[Alex]

Of course, there's also the issue of whether presenting a position in an artwork is the same as advocating the position.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Indeed.

[Strangler Lewis]

Maybe. Could somone get away with a song called "Wives Wanted," that had lyrics about how a woman would keep her mouth shut, that talked about how a man could shut it for her without the law getting involved, that had the refrain, "Son, let me tell you why I beat your mother?" Would it make a difference if the song was written by hunky Toby Keith or some widow burner from India?

More seriously, I think the real human phenomenon of misguided yearning can be artistically portrayed. I just don't think the quoted lyrics come anywhere close to it.

[Alex]

I don't know. Again there is the question of where the line is between simply showing characters/ideas that are repulsive and actually advocating for those ideas.

I think we have a higher allowance for the former in novels and movies but not so much in representational art or music. I recently ran into this with Wanted. I watch violent movies about assassins and vigilantiism all the time and have no issues but I felt Wanted went a step too far and was trying to convince the audience there was something noble about the motivations (if not the actions) of what had just been shown. Another movie that triggered this response was Four Brothers. But I can watch The Transporter and not be bothered that a criminal life is shown without any opprobrium.

Can such allowances be found in music or is the assumption that all lyrics are autobiographical?

[innerSpaceman]

Unfortunately, all a song has to go by is itself. I wont even consider the music video in judging, for myself alone, the intent and theme of the song.

A play, movie or novel has much more to work with ... and not only in terms of time. As such, I tend to cut songs a lot of slack, but I also judge them entirely on their 3 minutes (extra slack included).


I can't judge this particular song just by the lyrics. I'd have to hear the music and the tone of the vocals ... and i simply don't want to.

[Kevy Baby]

... and i simply don't want to.Not a big country music fan?

[innerSpaceman]

um, that would be a No.




Not a big lynching fan either .... though, like i said, i'll make an exception for anyone affiliated with a street gang.

[CoasterMatt]

What about Mormons? :evil:

[Kevy Baby]

What about Mormons? :evil:Or them damn Methodists?

[BarTopDancer]

I seriously doubt the target audience of this song, or the related movie was the ultra liberal left leaning music listeners. I also doubt it's going to spawn a bunch of lynchings. If someone or someones were going to go lynch someone they probably had the idea long before this song came about.

Actually, I know it didn't spawn a bunch of lynchings. I'm sure we would have heard about it back in 2003 when the song was #1 on the charts for 5 weeks. If it didn't spawn them then, I doubt it's going to spawn them now.

[Strangler Lewis]

I seriously doubt the target audience of this song, or the related movie was the ultra liberal left leaning music listeners.

You mean the anti-lynching wacko pansies who whine about the need for trials, the rule of law and the presumption of innocence?

No argument there.

[BarTopDancer]

You mean the anti-lynching wacko pansies who whine about the need for trials, the rule of law and the presumption of innocence?

No argument there.

I consider myself a left leaning liberal who likes country music, Toby Keith and this song. I don't have an urge to go lynchin or fly a confederate flag. Thank you very much.

I'm still waiting to hear if people think the lyrics to the M.I.A. song promote terrorism or murder.

I'll fly like a paper get high like planes
Catch me at the border I got visas in my name
If you come around here I'll make em all day
I'll get one done in a second if you wait

Sometimes I think sitting on trains
Every stop I get to I'm clocking that game
Everyone's a winner, we're making our fame
Bonafide hustler making my name

All I wanna do (BANG BANG BANG BANG)
And a (CLICK CHING)
And take your money

Pirate skulls and bones
Sticks and stones and weed and bombs
Running when we hit em
A leathal poison pon dey system

No one on the corner had swag like us
Hit me on up on a
Pre paid wireless
We pack and deliver like UPS trucks
Already going hell
Just pumping that gas

All I wanna do (BANG BANG BANG BANG)
And a (CLICK CHING)
And take your money

Some some some o dem I murder
Some a some I let go

This is MIA
A third world democracy
I got more records than the KGB

So no funny business

[Alex]

Actually, I know it didn't spawn a bunch of lynchings.

Has anybody suggested the song inspired any lynchings? All I see is people saying that the song seem to think there was something good about lynchings in the past and whether that isn't a very troublesome thing in light of the baggage associated with lynchings in this country.

[Strangler Lewis]

Unless there's some satirical or self-critical gloss that can be put on the lyrics, they don't seem to support the rule of law either.

[BarTopDancer]

Has anybody suggested the song inspired any lynchings? All I see is people saying that the song seem to think there was something good about lynchings in the past and whether that isn't a very troublesome thing in light of the baggage associated with lynchings in this country.

The author of the article was concerned it advocated lynchings. I was pointing out that the song was #1 on the charts when it was released and there were no lynchings as a result.

[Alex]

Agreed. "Advocated" is not a synonym for "inspired."

[Alex]

And there's no question that the song is advocating lynchings. If not in a literal sense then in the sense of needing a modern equivalent since the current justice system isn't protecting society.

The question isn't whether the song advocates it but whether that means Toby Keith advocates it.

[BarTopDancer]

Agreed. "Advocated" is not a synonym for "inspired."

I'm not disagreeing with you. Let me try another way. We didn't hear of anyone going out and lynching someone because "Toby Keith sang about it, it must be oK".

I'm curious if the M.I.A. lyrics going to be deemed acceptable because LoT members are fans of her but not country music.

[Strangler Lewis]

Never heard of M.I.A., but I was country when country wasn't cool.

[Alex]

I understand what you're saying. I'm saying it isn't relevant whether anybody lynched anybody because of the song.

I don't have any idea who either Toby Keith or M.I.A. is/are. You seem to be taking this personally. You shouldn't, it is ok to be entertained by a homophobic racist who would like all black people to be lynched (if that is what Keith is, I'm not saying he is).

But reading about M.I.A. it seems she is quite open about the politics and advocacy of her music. I don't know if I find the lyrics you've posted problematic because I don't know what she is trying to say with them.

I also don't know for certain what Keith is trying to say with his song. But at least on surface reading it seems to be pretty explicit in its yearning for a bygone era of more instantaneous (and harsher) judgment.

[Tom]

I haven't heard the song, only the read the lyrics. It seems beyond question to me that the song advocates lynching. The question is whether the lynching it advocates is racially motivated, and I believe that it is. While he doesn't say literally "hang black people," he refers to rounding up "boys" and wanting to do away with "gangsters" and "crime in the streets." I take these as racial code words. Others can have other opinions that would be no more or less right than mine, but that is what the words say to me.

Also, the song specifically refers to Texas. According to this page (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html), Texas had more lynchings than any state except Mississippi and Georgia. And while I have no firsthand knowledge of these Texas lynchings, it seems likely that they would have combined elements of "frontier justice" and the racial killings associated with the deep south. So the references to western themes do not preclude racial killings.

In any case, I find the song repugnant.

[blueerica]

Hey folks,

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing here... but... I'm pretty sure you could look at a great number of popular lyrics and find stuff that's pretty distasteful. It's all just sensationalism... both sides of it. ZOMG so-and-so wants to bring back the days of lynching! ZOMG there's a terrorist plot playing music in our commercials!


The songs are clearly meant to arouse the listener in whatever way - that's what music is supposed to do, I guess. And, as this media-intense, hyper-aware blogging and entertainment community has done, they've honed in on some message they think something is promoting and are pushing it. And yeah, I can see where some might think "Beer for My Horses" advocates lynching in the historical, anti-African American sort of way - I could see where others might not. I can also see where others might see M.I.A.'s lyrics could be seen as terrorist-and-or-politically-inpsired - or seen as someone who is talking about a rise 'to the top'.


But like I said, these are hardly first examples, but with a movie coming out, it's the perfect time to pull out a 5-year old song and make a big deal of it.

I love the M.I.A. song, and though I don't generally listen to country, I rather liked the Keith song. I saw Pineapple Express... and FREAKING LOVED IT... (No, I'm not a pot smoker... but there was so much geniunity... is that a word. Well, I mean... it was what it would be like if... crazy, but realistically so...). I've been trying to figure out where Beer for My Horses the film is playing, but haven't seen it locally, thus far. It's supposed to be a comedy.

[Strangler Lewis]

Hey folks,

The songs are clearly meant to arouse the listener in whatever way - that's what music is supposed to do, I guess.

Here it comes:

Thank God Hitler was a failed painter. Clearly, we'd be living in a different world if he'd taken up the banjo.

[scaeagles]

Hey folks,

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing here... but... I'm pretty sure you could look at a great number of popular lyrics and find stuff that's pretty distasteful.

Yeah....like in rap. Some of the most incredibly distasteful (and disgusting) stuff around.

[€uroMeinke]

Anyone know the lyrics to Louie Louie?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Ugh, I wish I hadn't sat through the video. I'm a big fan of Willie Nelson as a person, and I cannot believe he associated himself with such a moronic and sophomoric piece of drivel. What a horrible song.

But we aren't talking about the artistic merits of the song, we are talking about the underlying message, and I can't help but agree that the song romanticizes an era of vigilante justice in this country that was far more often than not directed at African-Americans. So whether or not it actually inspired any modern day lynchings is unimportant to me. Any song that paints this part of history as a better time is horribly misguided at best, and at worst, racist.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Yeah....like in rap. Some of the most incredibly distasteful (and disgusting) stuff around.

Rap gets no pass from me. I find much of the subject matter to be equally distasteful. I'm all for an artist having the ability to draw from any subject matter they choose, but that I doesn't mean that I have to agree with their choices.

[scaeagles]

I was only commenting on Blueerica's comments regarding how objectionable lyrics can be anywhere in music.

I happen to agree with Alex's assessment of the song. I think, as a general rule, racism is sought out and found in places it doesn't exist.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I think, as a general rule, racism is sought out and found in places it doesn't exist.

I have no idea whether or not Toby Keith is a racist. I do know that it is undeniable that racism played a major role in those glory days of lynching that Keith's song reflects positively upon. And as a white southerner, he most likely knows the history associated with that practice. To not only condone it, but long for its return, is troublesome at best.

[Kevy Baby]

Anyone know the lyrics to Louie Louie?No. Not even the people who sang it.

How about the lyrics to "Greased Lightening" (http://www.metrolyrics.com/greased-lightning-lyrics-grease.html)? Dem's some nasty lyrics.

[Disneyphile]

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing here... but... I'm pretty sure you could look at a great number of popular lyrics and find stuff that's pretty distasteful.Like the 80's classic song, "Turning Japanese", which was actually about orgasms.

I wonder if people would protest that song if it were newly released today, or just have some backbone like people did back in that decade and just change the channel if they personally found something offensive?

As for Toby's song, I can see both sides of the argument. But, I don't think any piece of music should be censored - let us censor it for ourselves by deciding what we personally want to listen to.

[Not Afraid]

The song is about lynching. Is it glorifying/advocating lynching or just talking about history?

And, who is Toby Keith?

[Moonliner]

And dear God what about the horses? Advocating serving alcoholic beverages for animals? Where is PETA? This is an outrage.

[€uroMeinke]

I was a punk rocker so enjoyed tunes like Anarchy in the UK, Holiday in Cambodia, Kill the Poor, etc. so I can't get to worked up over this one.

[€uroMeinke]

The song is about lynching. Is it glorifying/advocating lynching or just talking about history?

And, who is Toby Keith?

I think he stared in that Show Family Affair - with Mrs Beasley and Mr French

[katiesue]

Sigh - I always wanted to live in an apartment like Buffy & Jody. Play in Central Park. Mr. French would make me dinner. Sigh.

[Not Afraid]

I think he stared in that Show Family Affair - with Mrs Beasley and Mr French

You know, I was going to post something about Brian Keith, but I wasn't sure anyone would get my reference.

[Alex]

Brian Keith killed himself, that's mostly what I remember about him. Though professionally I know him more as Hardcastle than Family Affair.

Definitely more aware of him than Toby Keith.

[Kevy Baby]

Brian Keith killed himself, that's mostly what I remember about him. Though professionally I know him more as Hardcastle than Family Affair.

Definitely more aware of him than Toby Keith.And Buffy died at a pretty young age due to an OD.

Which caused Jody to write and record a pretty cheesy song about it.