Democratic National Convention '08 [Archive]

BDBopper

08-24-2008, 08:19 PM

I have been watching CNN. They just reported that Senator Clinton will be releasing her delegates. I understand it is a show of party unity but yikes. My heart goes out to her supporters, especially those who worked very hard as volunteers for her. These folks will not get the sense of satisfaction during the roll call to know that their candidate was represented in the delegate voting tabulation. I have no doubts that many of them went through the same experiences for their candidates as I did for Mike Huckabee.

I've been waiting for almost seven months (since February) for my similar moment of gratification which I hope will come next week. If the Huckabee delegates have been released it will be very painful and my feelings will be hurt. I understand the reasoning behind such decisions and I hold no one accountable. However I worked tirelessly for long hours and sacrificed myself last Fall and Winter for my candidate.

This will probably be very painful to Hillary's supporters. I feel bad for them.

scaeagles

08-25-2008, 06:14 AM

I agree that this Fox piece was ridiculous. However, don't pretend that Fox is the only news organization that tries to stir things up. While I don't need to go into tons of examples, the first one that popped into my head was when Connie Chung of CBS was interviewing Newt Gingich's quite elderly mom, telling her this was completely off the record and asking her what Newt thought of Hillary Clinton. Yeah, that wasn't meant to try to stir up anything.

Was the Fox story stupid and designed to to do exactly what you said, GD? Absolutely. Is this common throughout the "news" media? Absolutely.

To be clear, I am NOT justifying it by saying others do it. Only pointing out that this far more pervasive than Fox News alone.

BDBopper

08-25-2008, 08:16 AM

I am also in agreement. yes the report was horrible and really stupid but I've seen repulsive things from other networks too. They are all guilty of the same things. It's not fair to single out one from the others in this case (although my disdain for Fox News knows no bounds after the primary cycle).

Gemini Cricket

08-25-2008, 02:13 PM

Watching the DNC live on MSNBC...

sleepyjeff

08-25-2008, 02:31 PM

Watching the DNC live on MSNBC...

So you're the one:D

That was bad, I am even booing myself

BDBopper

08-25-2008, 08:01 PM

Never mind my political opinions of the Senior Senator from Mass but I will say it was great to see and hear Ted Kennedy in better health. He's a good speaker too.

Gemini Cricket

08-26-2008, 08:11 PM

I think Hillary's speech was right on the money. It was well written. Kudos to her for voicing her support for Obama.
:)

innerSpaceman

08-26-2008, 08:17 PM

It turned out to be a throwaway because the crowd was still reacting to something said before, but I loved the bit in the History of Feminism section where she pointed out that her mother was born before a woman could vote for president, and her daughter was able to vote for HER for president.

It encapsulated so much about progress, about the unfolding promise of America, and about struggles worth fighting for through generations.

I know Hillary is the smarmiest of calculating pols ... but I love her.

Motorboat Cruiser

08-26-2008, 08:30 PM

I thought it was a very good speech. I hope it will have a positive effect on some of her rabid supporters who seem to want to vote for McCain out of spite that they didn't win and that Obama didn't choose her as VP. These people need to pay attention to the bigger picture here.

innerSpaceman

08-26-2008, 08:42 PM

Hillary's speaking style is fine, and I thought she was in good form tonight. But she's never thrilled me as an orator.

My favorite speech at the convention today was by Dennis Kucinich. Short, to the point, invigorating, crowd-pleasing, catchy and enthusiastically delivered. Heheh, it didn't make prime-time tv, but here's Kucinich's Rousing Address (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9H6Ci1vmnw) at the 2008 Democratic National Convention.

Better in 5 minutes than Hillary was in 20, imo, but not as sexy. (I think Hillary is HoT)

Alex

08-26-2008, 08:59 PM

It turned out to be a throwaway because the crowd was still reacting to something said before, but I loved the bit in the History of Feminism section where she pointed out that her mother was born before a woman could vote for president, and her daughter was able to vote for HER for president.

It may have been missed tonight but it was a standard line in her stump speech so rest assured that most of the people paying close attention have heard it before.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-26-2008, 09:05 PM

Wow, I am impressed and pleased by the speech. Exactly what she needed to say, in exactly the right way. :snap: I feel much better about her than I did prior to it. She was able to usher her followers into the fold and look good for doing it. Awesome!

Snowflake

08-26-2008, 09:33 PM

3894

08-27-2008, 07:35 AM

I know Hillary is the smarmiest of calculating pols ... but I love her.

And she's where she is because of her husband and also because people feel sorry for her because her husband had an affair.

As a woman of accomplishment myself and almost all of it having nothing to do with my husband, I felt angered by Hillary's candidacy. There are other, stronger, more accomplished women in politics who have made it under their own steam.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 08:18 AM

How are those grapes, 3894?

3894

08-27-2008, 08:35 AM

How are those grapes, 3894?

I don't understand.

Stan4dSteph

08-27-2008, 08:35 AM

I was amused by the footage that showed on ABC News of two Clinton aides holding up pantsuits in front of the stage backdrop to see which would work best on camera. They all looked the same except for the color!

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 09:11 AM

And she's where she is because of her husband and also because people feel sorry for her because her husband had an affair.

As a woman of accomplishment myself and almost all of it having nothing to do with my husband, I felt angered by Hillary's candidacy. There are other, stronger, more accomplished women in politics who have made it under their own steam.

I gather you will not be founding a local chapter of the "Mary Bono for President" club.

Kevy Baby

08-27-2008, 09:26 AM

How are those grapes, 3894?The Grapes of Wrath!

I personally agree with Helen in that post (well, except for the part about being a woman of a accomplishment as I am neither a woman [though my wife argues otherwise occasionally] and nor accomplished).

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 09:31 AM

If Obama wins, and his Presidency has the effect I hope it does (namely putting a damper on the climate of antagonism in national politics), I'd probably vote for Clinton in 8 years. It's a ways off, and she isn't getting any younger, but 59 is not all that old for a Presidential candidate and under a climate of less partisan rage I think she'd make a good President

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 09:32 AM

Well, then both of you display your ignorance of the woman, and that's alright. You don't have to know everything.

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 09:54 AM

Okay, then I won't vote for her in 8 years.

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 09:54 AM

Sisterhood of the Traveling Pantsuits
I liked that bit.
:)

Kevy Baby

08-27-2008, 09:55 AM

Well, then both of you display your ignorance of the woman, and that's alright. You don't have to know everything.You always admire what you really don't understand.
Blaise Pascal

Kevy Baby

08-27-2008, 09:56 AM

Sisterhood of the Traveling Pantsuits I liked that bit.
:)That's funny!

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 10:00 AM

Perhaps I'd best explain myself better.

This is a very liberal-leaning message board. I don't think there are many supporters of John McCain for president around here. Heheh, not even among our few Conservative members.

Yet no one personally insults the man by saying he became a U.S. Senator because people felt sorry for him being tortured as a Vietnam prisoner of war. Yet, from a certain and logical point of view, that's exactly what happened.

Being a torture victim may make you a martyr-like hero that inspires admiration, but it more likely inspires pity.

Yet, it would be rude to say the Senator was elected by the citizens of Arizona because of pity ... and in any case, he's gone on to do very good work for his constituants in that State and for America as a United States Senator.

When people don't accord Senator Clinton the same respect, it irks me. And she has also gone on to do good work for her constituants and for America. And so I take umbrage at the personal and disgustingly disrespectful insult.

People are free to express that opinion, and I'd like to be free to express my displeasure at the rudeness that I find out of line.

I think the grapes sound as if they tasted sour, so I really don't think I'm being any more prissy than someone who accuses Hillary Clinton of attaining the lofty position accorded to a mere 100 Americans (much less being the first viable female presidential candidate in American history) through pity that she was cuckholded on national TV.

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 10:11 AM

Since Hillary is 60 going on 61, she won't be 59 in eight years. Unless 68 is the new 58--which I certainly hope it is.

3894

08-27-2008, 10:26 AM

Being a torture victim may make you a martyr-like hero that inspires admiration, but it more likely inspires pity.

Lately, quite a lot of talking heads have been noting McCain plays the pity card frequently, which he has conflated with the how-dare-you-question-a-war-hero card. Rachel Maddow did almost a monologue on it on Keith Olbermann the other night.

When people don't accord Senator Clinton the same respect, it irks me. And she has also gone on to do good work for her constituants and for America. And so I take umbrage at the personal and disgustingly disrespectful insult.

People are free to express that opinion, and I'd like to be free to express my displeasure at the rudeness that I find out of line.

What's a insult is both how Sen. Clinton has played the weak sister card and how it worked.

Alex

08-27-2008, 10:30 AM

Don't be silly, John McCain became a senator by exactly the same route as Hillary: he married the right person and thus gained access to the financial and political puppet strings in Arizona.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 10:31 AM

Well, with all due respect, what the Talking Heads do has nothing to do with the behavior on this message board. I'd hate to think we should stoop to the discourse level of television commentators.

Nonetheless, you are of course free to express your opinion. I just thought it was personally insulting and out of line. That's my opinion.

As for the candidates, I expect them to play every card in the deck ... but I don't have to stoop to that level either. Hillary's a jilted woman, Obama's black, McCain's a torture victim. Those cards are going to be on the table. I don't think any of them make for a winning hand, but they're going to be played for the pity vote that exists in small quantities.

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 10:35 AM

And that relates to my post how? I never said she doesn't deserve to be where she is. I said, as I've said this entire election, that I don't think her political attitude is right for the time. I think she, and those that support her, would have gotten into the White House and proceeded to run an administration that was totally reactionary to the Bush administration, making decisions based on what would make the other side of the aisle look worse, not based on what would be best for the country.

It has nothing to do with her being a woman, or riding coat tails, or lack of experience. It has everything to do with how I've seen her conduct herself int he political arena.

Not that I expect Obama to be free from that, the realities of the pressures of partisan politics being what they are. But I don't expect him to go in with that as part of his goals. Whereas I would expect that rubbing her victory in Bush's face would have been very high on Clinton's priority list, and her constituency would by and large have been disappointed if that WASN'T what she did.

I don't want to see 8 more years of Bush politics, but neither do I want to see 8 years of reaction to Bush politics. I want to see 8 years of someone running their own Presidency as best they can whether it makes Bush look bad or not. Right now, Clinton represents an arm of the Democratic party that doesn't want fair, rational decisions in the White House, but wants the pendulum to swing in the other direction to make up for the slights they've perceived over the last 8. I'd rather see that pendulum stopped as much as possible.

Take Clinton out of that context, where the people voting for her aren't doing so because they want someone who can stick it to Bush but because they want her as a leader and it's a whole different ball game. After 8 years of an Obama White House that is (crossing my fingers) comparatively rational, civil, and professional, I will be much more willing to back Hillary as a candidate.

That's all I'm saying. So try to keep your personal sniping to yourself for a second and read what's posted rather than assuming something I never said.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 10:40 AM

And that relates to my post how?
If that question's directed at me, the answer is: It doesn't relate to your post at all, Mr. Post-At-The-Exact-Same-Time-As-Me.

It relates to the posts of 3894 and KevyBaby right above yours; you just happened to post at the exact same time as me. I didn't feel like going back and editing my post to include their quotes, because I thought the objects of my response were obvious.

I guess not to you. I apologize for any confusion. Was that the cause of your lovely message? :D

Even if so, I appreciate the criticism of my tone. You inspired me to explain myself better, and I'm glad I had that opportunity. And I'm sorry personal insults to Hillary are bugging me this morning. I'll likely have a thicker skin on days when I haven't enjoyed her big speech the night before.

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 10:45 AM

Oops, heh, and I missed Kevy's post entirely.

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 10:49 AM

Would one say that Paulie Shore didn't deserve his career because his mother ran The Comedy Store?

Would we say that Christian Slater doesn't deserve his career because his mother was a casting executive?

It's not what you know . . .

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 10:49 AM

But THIS is in reaction to your last post, GD, now that I've read further:

Yeah, I agree Clinton might have had revenge in mind. If she's appointed to Justice, she'll have an even better shot at it than if she were elected president.

But just because many red-meat Democrats might want revenge or repudiation, that doesn't mean the people they elect on that basis will deliver it. Witness the current Congress and Nancy Pelosi. Voted in, I daresay, to at least move decisively to end the war in Iraq, and they've pretty much thumbed their noses in their voters' faces. I wouldn't expect Hillary Clinton to be any more beholden, and I don't think revenge for its own sake is particularly important to her. She's never been one of the bigger Bush opponents as a Senator, only as a candidate.

That said, I DO expect and want a repudiation of Bush policies, whether or not that's considered reactionary to the Bush Administration. I'd like an end to the war in Iraq, and an end to the shredding of encroachments on the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. There are many other progressive things I'd like achieved ... and to the extent they are the opposite of the Bush Administration philosophy, those could be seen as a repudiation of the last 8 years.

Frankly, I don't expect Barack Obama to be much less in the pocket of corporations and financial interests, but we'll see. But anything done to restore our civil rights and increase the well-being of the middle and lower classes will be a defacto repudication of and reaction to the Bush years.

It might be the easy way out, but if any new administration would simply be guided by doing the exact opposite of what George Bush might have done, and spend 8 years undoing all of his misdeeds, I would consider that a damn successful presidency.

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 10:51 AM

It might be the easy way out, but if any new administration would simply be guided by doing the exact opposite of what George Bush might have done, and spend 8 years undoing all of his misdeeds, I would consider that a damn successful presidency.
And I'd consider it a failure.

Undoing some of the damage is a part of what I want, but what I'm more interested in is repairing the damaged climate of "If you disagree with me you're my enemy" that LEAD to those failures. Clinton would not have been the President to do that. Even if she wanted to. She's just too polarizing a figure in the eyes of too much of this country. Her support came too much from polarized people on the left, and her detractors are made up of too many polarized people on the right. At least Obama's got a CHANCE, coming in with far less baggage (deserved or otherwise) than Clinton (no one can come in with zero baggage, of course).

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 10:55 AM

Well, perhaps this is a topic best left for a different thread, but what are you hoping the Obama administation to achieve that would be entirely separate from a repudiation of Bush?

I haven't paid that much attention to his plans, frankly. And I'm going to miss his speech tomorrow (I'll be at Sleeping Beauty). Is he aiming for anything that can't be viewed as anti-Bush?

I don't think he's going in with the aim of being specifically anti-Bush, but since Bush was opposed to anything good, I'd have to consider anything good to be anti-Bush.

Perhaps it's just a matter of symantics. :)

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 10:56 AM

I think, by definition, the undoing of "misdeeds" is a good thing unless there are negative collateral consequences.

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 11:13 AM

It's largely a bit of semantics and perception, and yes I agree that much of what I consider to be the good decisions he'll need to make are indeed the opposite of what Bush has done/McCain would do. But I think Obama will be able to do a much better job of framing those decisions as, "These are the correct decisions to put this country on a positive course for the future," instead of, "Bush was wrong, let's do it right!"

Yes, a semantic distinction, but an important one. As the last 8 years have shown, attitude and framing of communications are part and parcel to good leadership. I think Clinton would have a harder time of keeping her disdain for those that disagree with her from being noticed, and on top of that, remembering that partisan animosity requires 2 sides, the contingent of folks ready to loudly oppose anything she says or does is far more established than for Obama. You don't have to look any farther than scaeagles to see how ready, willing, and able her opponents are to smear her and her family at a moments notice. Not that there won't be a similar attempt against Obama, but those that would do that haven't had the years and years of material and practice they've had with Clinton. It's perhaps unfair to her as a candidate, but it is what it is and I am glad that we're not going to give that element fuel for the next 8 years.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 12:09 PM

Alas, while there would be too many people lined up to smear a Hillary president ... I fear there are too many people lined up to assassinate a Barack president.

Alex

08-27-2008, 12:12 PM

Interesting political thriller. Black president, female vice president. President is assassinated shortly after taking office not because he's black but because the shooter wanted a female president.

3894

08-27-2008, 12:28 PM

Interesting political thriller. Black president, female vice president. President is assassinated shortly after taking office not because he's black but because the shooter wanted a female president.

Remember the RFK assassination gaffe/Freudian slip Sen. Clinton made in early June? That twist could make your thriller even more interesting.

scaeagles

08-27-2008, 12:34 PM

I have oft been one to think that the very reason Obama would NOT choose Hillary is because if he's one breath between her and the Presidency his last is very much more likely.

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 12:35 PM

Interesting political thriller. Black president, female vice president. President is assassinated shortly after taking office not because he's black but because the shooter wanted a female president.

Some years ago, I wrote a screenplay that sets the Oedipus story in what was essentially the Clinton White House. The president puts out his eyes--or does he--in a gesture of fake contrition calculated to keep power. Ultimately, he kills himself when it's revealed that he has a black father because he feels the American public would never accept that.

I may have to dust it off if Obama loses.

Kevy Baby

08-27-2008, 12:48 PM

This is a very liberal-leaning message board. I don't think there are many supporters of John McCain for president around here. Heheh, not even among our few Conservative members.

Yet no one personally insults the man by saying he became a U.S. Senator because people felt sorry for him being tortured as a Vietnam prisoner of war. Yet, from a certain and logical point of view, that's exactly what happened.

Being a torture victim may make you a martyr-like hero that inspires admiration, but it more likely inspires pity.

Yet, it would be rude to say the Senator was elected by the citizens of Arizona because of pity ... and in any case, he's gone on to do very good work for his constituents in that State and for America as a United States Senator.

When people don't accord Senator Clinton the same respect, it irks me. And she has also gone on to do good work for her constituents and for America. And so I take umbrage at the personal and disgustingly disrespectful insult.I made my judgments about Hillary completely independent of:

Her gender
John McCain and his war injuries
Barrack Obama and his colorPART of the reason that I do not like Hillary is because I believe that without being married to a past president, she would be a complete unknown.

In my opinion, she has done very little actual good for this country. I completely disagree with her thoughts on how to improve health care and I disagree with a lot of her political positions. IMO, she is one of the bigger snakes in the grass in current politics.

I do not support McCain, but then I am not wild about Obama either. Just because I agree with Helen's sentiment about Hillary does not mean that I do so in spite of how McCain may or may not have been elected.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-27-2008, 12:55 PM

Heard a good point today - Clinton did not say Obama is "ready to lead" or otherwise repudiate any of her old claims against him. Will Hillary's backers be ok with him answering that phone call at 3am? I'm hoping Bill will attend to some of that tonight....but God alone knows what he's going to say ;)

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 12:57 PM

I have oft been one to think that the very reason Obama would NOT choose Hillary is because if he's one breath between her and the Presidency his last is very much more likely.
Really, i would think the opposite - that many of the nutbags who hate the thought of a black president also hate the thought of a girl president, and would thus have to kill both of them, and be deterred by the double difficulty.

Yep, I think making Hillary his V.P. would have been an Obama life insurance policy.

But seriously, I hope he is the most well-protected president in U.S. history. But past U.S. history gives me little hope. There was a close-to-successful assassination attempt as recent as Regan ... and I've personally lived through an actual presidential assassination where I believe the Secret Service was either complicit or negligent.

scaeagles

08-27-2008, 12:59 PM

scaeagles

08-27-2008, 01:00 PM

Really, i would think the opposite - that many of the nutbags who hate the thought of a black president also hate the thought of a girl president, and would thus have to kill both of them, and be deterred by the double difficulty.

Yep, I think making Hillary his V.P. would have been an Obama life insurance policy.

I mean HILLARY would have pulled the trigger....or been behind it.

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 01:12 PM

Taking stuff back would only have drawn attention to it. The only credible way she could have taken her criticisms back would have been to say, "Yeah, I said it. I said it because I believe I would have been a damned good president. I wanted to get elected, and this is the kind of sh*t you say in presidential campaigns. John McCain understands that, which is why he has publicly gone back on every "maverick" stance he has ever taken, hoping that half of you believe what he says now and half of you believe what he used to say."

That's a mouthful. I thought she did great.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 01:24 PM

I do not support McCain, but then I am not wild about Obama either. Just because I agree with Helen's sentiment about Hillary does not mean that I do so in spite of how McCain may or may not have been elected.
All fair and good, and my comment was not directed primarily at you because you did not make the original insult. But have you similarly insulted McCain because of how he attained power? Or is that a low-blow that you find Clinton deserving of in particular?

I understand you don't agree with her policies or accomplishments. That can be stated without personal insult. But Hillary having attained the public eye by being first lady is no more or less serendipitous than McCain attaining the public eye because he was a POW.

Again, I take umbrage only because I don't think we will be crass enough around here to insult McCain for similar circumstances.

By the way, the insult is less to her than to the people of my home State of New York, by implying they are sheep who had their own collective wool pulled over their eyes. I may not live there anymore, but once a New Yawker always a New Yawker ... and it's never wise to insult a New Yawker. :p

scaeagles

08-27-2008, 01:33 PM

McCain also was a bit of a carpet bagger, moving to AZ specifically to run for an open seat in the US House. Hillary is also guilty of that, I suppose.

I do think that one thing going for McCain related to the whole POW experience was his character during the experience. It is widely publicized (and widely verified) that he was offered release but refused as there were others who had been in the Hanoi Hilton longer.

That does speak strongly of character - as much so as his affair did in the opposite direction - but at least it did involve character.

Tom

08-27-2008, 02:12 PM

many of the nutbags who hate the thought of a black president also hate the thought of a girl president, and would thus have to kill both of them, and be deterred by the double difficulty.

Actually, killing both of them would make Nancy Pelosi president, so the degree of difficulty would be even higher if they didn't want a female president.

Alex

08-27-2008, 02:19 PM

What is not so often mentioned is that almost all POWs were at some point offered and rejected release unless everybody was released and without terms. So while it does speak to his character that he refused release on terms that would have required him to speak out against the United States, it isn't necessarily a sign of a uniquely special character.

And I'm all for maligning the political sense of the New Yorkers, it isn't like they've done anything to suggest they're immune to the idiocy common to other consistuencies.

Stan4dSteph

08-27-2008, 02:22 PM

And I'm all for maligning the political sense of the New Yorkers, it isn't like they've done anything to suggest they're immune to the idiocy common to other consistuencies.Hey!

Alex

08-27-2008, 02:23 PM

Actually, killing both of them would make Nancy Pelosi president, so the degree of difficulty would be even higher if they didn't want a female president.

And getting all three would get us a 90+ year old former Klansman tottering on the edge of senility for president. Which would, I'm sure, make everybody happy.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 02:27 PM

Yes, it would be like most presidents in our history. Dithering old white men.

Alex

08-27-2008, 02:37 PM

Yeah, but it is a good commercial for McCain, "I know a lot of you think I'm old, but I'd remind you that that this nonogenarian is only three heartbeats from the presidency. I've seen him naked in the Senate showers, trust me that man is ooooollllldddddd."

Snowflake

08-27-2008, 02:40 PM

She did quite a job dancing around supporting him without taking anything back. It's exactly what she had to do for herself because she does want Obama to lose and can't act that way.

Bill will make it all about himself. I doubt he even mentions Obama.

Well ya know, it was the primary, do we really expect people to make nice in the primaries? Do we really believe all the politic-nasty-speak in the primary season? I take all the nasty back biting in the primary with a grain of salt. Hillary and Obama and McCain and Romney (if he gets the veep end of the ticket), it's the same.

I don't expect her to take anything back and I fully expect McCain to keep using her primary-era quotes in ads.

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 02:59 PM

I'm confused as to what Hillary's nomination means. It was announced at the DNC along with Obama's.
:confused:

Alex

08-27-2008, 03:20 PM

Nothing, it just means that her name is up for consideration and that delegates will be voting for her. Worst case all the state delegations cast their votes as determined in the primaries and the superdelegates cast whatever vote they want and Obama wins.

Or, a symbolic show will be made of voting for her and at some point she'll withdraw her name and ask that Obama be nominated by acclamation.

Snowflake

08-27-2008, 03:36 PM

Or, a symbolic show will be made of voting for her and at some point she'll withdraw her name and ask that Obama be nominated by acclamation.

I think this was the plan.

katiesue

08-27-2008, 03:57 PM

Or, a symbolic show will be made of voting for her and at some point she'll withdraw her name and ask that Obama be nominated by acclamation.

and Alex wins!

Alex

08-27-2008, 04:14 PM

Well, I did use the old mentalist trick of already knowing what was going to happen before it happened. The plan was announced last night.

I was just being complete in my answer to GC.

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 04:23 PM

Cool.
Thanks.
:)

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 04:33 PM

Well, I did use the old mentalist trick of already knowing what was going to happen before it happened. The plan was announced last night.

I was just being complete in my answer to GC.Fraud.

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 04:38 PM

Still a little foggy. So it's like she's giving permission for the nomination to go through without counting her votes? So basically one more chance for her to say something about uniting Democrats?

Ghoulish Delight

08-27-2008, 04:42 PM

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 04:46 PM

Yes. It allowed Obama and the party to act fair by saying they'd let her name be put into the running for nomination, and then let her be congratulatory and uniting by gracefully stepping aside even though she had the right to sit back and let her votes be counted.
Got it. Fog lifted.

Does anyone else think the whole convention has an Academy Awards feeling to it? Like that announcer that introduces everyone. I keep expecting her to say, "Ladies and Gentlemen, Senator Joe Biden and Geena Davis!"

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 05:03 PM

Got it. Fog lifted.

Does anyone else think the whole convention has an Academy Awards feeling to it?

Yes, but many of the speeches could be relegated to the event that hands out the awards for technical achievement.

JWBear

08-27-2008, 05:07 PM

And getting all three would get us a 90+ year old former Klansman tottering on the edge of senility for president. Which would, I'm sure, make everybody happy.

Would that really be worse than what we have now?

Alex

08-27-2008, 06:13 PM

He'd be a Democrat so most of the people who hate what we have now would feel an obligation to say yes.

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 06:13 PM

Michelle Obama keeps blocking her face with her clapping hands. Yes, we see your nails, dear.
:D

Not Afraid

08-27-2008, 06:22 PM

I think I'm supposed to be more interested in this process than I was in the Olympics in China. Maybe I'm a Communist and don't know it. A Mayflower Communist, that is.

Gemini Cricket

08-27-2008, 06:34 PM

Bill still knows how to deliver a speech. Man, it's much easier listening to him than Bush Jr.
:)

Cadaverous Pallor

08-27-2008, 06:48 PM

Kerry's punishment for losing 2004 - follow Bill onstage.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 07:14 PM

Yep, roar followed by snore.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 07:31 PM

Bo Biden's a hottie.

(I'd like to give him a bo job) :eek:

Cadaverous Pallor

08-27-2008, 07:35 PM

Bo Biden's a hottie.

(I'd like to give him a bo job) :eek:He was surprisingly good looking.

There must be a serious shortage of blue dresses in Denver. I wonder if all the stores had specials...

Alex

08-27-2008, 08:20 PM

I'll admit I was surprised that Joe Biden didn't mention during his speech that when it comes time for vote for president that Beau Biden will have to do it by absentee ballot since he'll be serving in Iraq (he's a JAG officer in the reserve and ships out in October). Don't know if it was mentioned in introductions.

Strangler Lewis

08-27-2008, 08:21 PM

Beau alluded to it in his introduction, that he had other obligations. He appeared to assume we all knew what he was talking about.

Stan4dSteph

08-27-2008, 08:23 PM

Beau alluded to it in his introduction, that he had other obligations. He appeared to assume we all knew what he was talking about.Right, I was wondering about that too.

Alex

08-27-2008, 08:26 PM

Yeah, and the "bravest warriors" comment I'm sure was intended in that direction but lacked context. Wonder what the thinking was in not emphasizing it though.

innerSpaceman

08-27-2008, 09:38 PM

Yeah, cause I was going, 'huh', and it would have been a neat revelation.

Up 4 points for going to Iraq.

Down 2 points for spelling your name 'Beau' instead of 'Bo.'

That leaves him 2 ahead and still a hottie. I'm suddenly all happy about voting for his dad.

innerSpaceman

08-28-2008, 07:17 AM

Having slept on it, i don't know why i spaced and thought he'd spell his name all Hick-like as "Bo" instead of French Foreign Legion like "Beau" ...

.... though of course, with a brother named "Hunter," it should be spelled "Bow."

Stan4dSteph

08-28-2008, 07:33 AM

I missed Bill Clinton's speech last night, but caught the last part of Beau Biden's speech and all of Joe Biden's speech. Joe Biden was really good, although he seemed to get a little over excited toward the end, almost yelling, and had a few flubs.

I am planning to watch Obama's speech tonight, although it's more likely to be constantly interrupted by applause, which really annoys me.

Stan4dSteph

08-28-2008, 07:44 AM

There was an interesting article in this morning's USA Today "behind the scenes" of the Daily Show's DNC coverage.
Forget Rock the Vote. Inside the Pepsi Center this week, the true rock stars are the correspondents of The Daily Show, besieged by politicos and press, posing for pictures and being filmed by fans as they film their fake news reports — or try to, anyway.Full article (http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2008-08-27-daily-show_N.htm).

Has anyone been watching their coverage? I have gotten out of the habit of watching, so I need to remember to tune in, probably for the day-after repeat at 8 PM.

innerSpaceman

08-28-2008, 08:22 AM

Wow, i haven't watched the Daily Show in a couple of years. Yep, habit gone along with the rest of my TV habit. Eh, i'm over it.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-28-2008, 08:33 AM

Funny, I completely forgot about their coverage. It would be more entertaining for sure...

ETA - just checked and they're not covering tonight's speech.

Alex

08-28-2008, 09:13 AM

I watched Tuesday's show and was disappointed. There was almost nothing that couldn't have been done from New York. Most of it could have been scripted a month ago.

Then last night I missed the first segment but the second segment was coverage analysis, easily done from New York, a fake remote of Samantha Bee in orange pantsuit stealing the spotlight in slowly handing off a story to the new black correspendent guy (can't remember his name yet) which could have been mostly scripted months ago and had no local Denver element, and the interview was Howard Dean. Yeah, finally something taking advantage of being in Denver since Dean is actually in Denver and the interview was still done by remote link-up since Dean was in the convention center and the Daily Show set was not.

Funny stuff, I just haven't yet seen any reason for them to have moved the whole enterprise to Denver (and now on to St. Paul).

Alex

08-28-2008, 09:36 AM

Also, until last night I didn't realize that Samantha Bee and Jason Jones actually are married.

All of the previous times it was mentioned were in the context of bits where I thought it was just a joke. Then last night it was mentioned in a casual way and I realized "oh, they're serious."

Strangler Lewis

08-28-2008, 10:15 AM

Does anyone else think the whole convention has an Academy Awards feeling to it?

And also because you're on pins and needles hope that the aging recipient of the special Oscar doesn't embarrass himself by, say, ordering everyone applauding him to sit down.

Morrigoon

08-28-2008, 08:05 PM

Does anybody else find it hilarious that the DNC was followed (on CBS) by Big Brother?

Stan4dSteph

08-28-2008, 08:05 PM

Does anybody else find it hilarious that the DNC was followed (on CBS) by Big Brother?No, because here it wasn't.

On another note: Woooo! Pyro!

BarTopDancer

08-28-2008, 08:07 PM

He uses fireworks. He gets my vote.

Regardless of your opinion of Obama, it was pretty cool seeing history made.

JWBear

08-28-2008, 08:08 PM

WOW!!

scaeagles

08-28-2008, 08:23 PM

I read the transcript of the speech rather than watching it. Pretty typical promises of a democrat candidate for President.

Alex

08-28-2008, 08:25 PM

Bill Kristol thought it was a great speech and a powerful start to the official campaign.

I'm sure he'll have come to his senses by morning, but if it gave Kristol a woody you have to admit it must have been pretty well delivered.

scaeagles

08-28-2008, 08:33 PM

I can't speak to the delivery. Undoubtedly it was brilliantly delivered. Obama gives great prepared speeches.

Alex

08-28-2008, 08:42 PM

Well, you might want to care more about delivery because I think I can guarantee that very few people are going to be seeking the dispassion of reading it.

Moonliner

08-28-2008, 08:51 PM

scaeagles

08-28-2008, 08:54 PM

Well, I care about the substance more than how it is said. I don't even watch republican speeches, preferring to read them.

I read some interesting analysis pre speech by Dick Morris. In 2000, Gore was down 7 when he gave an incredibly wonky dispassionate speech at the convention, and went up by 10 for a 17 point jump. Morris predicts the typical Obama speech will provide an emotional bump, which rarely lasts. Morris is a pretty smart political mind.

I find it interesting, though, that you, Alex, seem more concerned with the delivery than the substance.

Edited to add: Great point, Moonliner.

Gemini Cricket

08-28-2008, 08:57 PM

I thought it was an amazing speech. Great delivery. He hit all the points that he has been challenged on by the McCain camp. Obama showed us that he's one tough cookie. Well done, methinks.
One of the best speeches I've ever seen.
:)

Bornieo: Fully Loaded

08-28-2008, 09:07 PM

On MSNBC they're doing crowd shots outside the convention. I'm keeping an eye out for Nephy. heheh

Gemini Cricket

08-28-2008, 09:07 PM

Here is the transcript of the speech. (http://www.demconvention.com/barack-obama/)

Alex

08-28-2008, 09:21 PM

I find it interesting, though, that you, Alex, seem more concerned with the delivery than the substance.

Why should this be surprising. I disagree with several of the policy proposals he put forward.

Also, I don't see where I said at all that I'm concerned more with delivery than substance. I said you shouldn't remain ignorant of the delivery if you want to have a sense of the impact. I'm sure you're perfectly capable of actually watching the speech and then sniffing it is just old fashioned liberalism but then you'd also have a sense of how it played to everybody.

Rightly or wrongly, delivery has a huge impact on political success and ignoring it is misguided.

Alex

08-28-2008, 09:36 PM

And I just realized that I probably gave the sense of letting Bill Kristol's response stand as my own.

It wasn't, I though the last third was very good both otherwise I was underwhelmed.

But for me, the delivery and content weren't all that important so long as there was nothing surprising in them. Right now, the Republican Party is pretty much disqualified for the presidency in my eyes (you only get to screw up so much before you are demoted to the minors on principal) so unless something completely outside the pale is revealed about Obama or his plans for the presidency he'll have my vote regardless of our specific policy disagreements.

Motorboat Cruiser

08-29-2008, 12:15 AM

I thought it was a very good speech. Perhaps not the best that Obama is capable of giving, but I don't think that was necessary here. I thought he came off as forceful, intelligent, fair and capable. I also think he addressed everything that needed to be addressed at that moment.

Reportedly, people waited in six mile long lines to get into the stadium. That's pretty insane but I might have done the same, had I been there.

wendybeth

08-29-2008, 12:19 AM

Morrigoon

08-29-2008, 12:21 AM

Dear Lord, please don't let him pick Lieberman. Not because I don't think he can do the job, but because I simply can't stand to hear him speak.

Tenigma

08-29-2008, 12:28 AM

Well, I care about the substance more than how it is said. I don't even watch republican speeches, preferring to read them.
Some people only prefer to read the lyrics to songs, too.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 04:40 AM

I love how Morris is such a genius in Scaeagles estimation these days- I'd bet everything I own that he didn't think so before Morris turned weasel. I'm glad the cons got Morris and Leiberman- they are a much better fit in the GOP.

And Wenchybeth, I would figure that when Morris was the architect of the Clinton's reign you would have let him suck on your toes, too.

I was going to explain my comments about Morris further, but why bother? This LoT has certainly lost it's sense of non personal political discussion.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 04:52 AM

Some people only prefer to read the lyrics to songs, too.

Last I checked Bono wasn't running for President. But you're right (as is Alex) in that most people do look at how he says something rather than the substance of what he says.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 04:55 AM

Why should this be surprising. I disagree with several of the policy proposals he put forward.

Also, I don't see where I said at all that I'm concerned more with delivery than substance.

I was surprised because you typically analyze.

Here's what you said that made me think that -

Well, you might want to care more about delivery because I think I can guarantee that very few people are going to be seeking the dispassion of reading it.

Telling me that I should be more soncerned with the delivery to me meant that I should care more about it that what was said. If you didn't mean that, then I misunderstood you.

3894

08-29-2008, 05:11 AM

Somehow Obama managed to pull himself up without all these expensive programs he says we need.

So how about you cut all the fat out of the budget like you say and stop there. Stop collecting money you don't need and let the people keep it. That way they can rise or fall to the limits of their own ability.

He said his mother and he had to go on food stamps. He said he and Michelle got student loans because education got them where they were. He said once in the biographical film and once in the speech that I/we are our brothers'/sisters' keeper.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 07:20 AM

Because some people believe financial standing is not a measure of whether you deserve to receive health care, an education, and a basic standard of living.

Alex

08-29-2008, 07:22 AM

What I meant:

Well, you might want to care more about delivery [than you apparently do] because...

What I didn't mean:

Well, you might want to care more about delivery [than anything else because, really, I've given you plenty of reason to think I'm a rhetorical retard and therefore it is safest to jump to the conclusion assuming me to intend the stupidest possible interpretation you can give my sentences] because...

Betty

08-29-2008, 07:31 AM

I thought it was a great! My husband says something to the effect that they all make promises they can't or won't keep and they all suck balls basically... but I like his promises better then what I think McCain will be promising.

I can't help but thing - wouldn't it be great if he really did do all those things?! I'm sure some of you guys will be able to point out reasons that I'm not able to see on why his ideas are somehow bad and will hurt our country perhaps - but I was inspired.

My Mother in law and sis in law don't want to vote for him... guess why... go on. They are pretty sure he'll be assassinated. And I also suspect they might be a little racist somehow... although neither of them would ever openly admit to it in those black and white terms. no pun intended.

Moonliner

08-29-2008, 07:34 AM

He said his mother and he had to go on food stamps. He said he and Michelle got student loans because education got them where they were. He said once in the biographical film and once in the speech that I/we are our brothers'/sisters' keeper.

No one said the American dream is easy. It some cases it takes hard work and sacrifice, but it is possible for anyone with the programs we have now. Obama is a shining example of that.

I had to put myself through college with no support from anyone. It was tough as hell to work at a crappy job and be a full time student but I managed. Short term suffering for long term goals. It's a skill that many in this country seem to lack. They think entitlement programs will be a substitute for hard work.

Alex

08-29-2008, 07:36 AM

Yes, he did cover your (and to a certain extent my) point of view in the ownership society part of the speech.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 07:38 AM

I had to put myself through college with no support from anyone. It was tough as hell to work at a crappy job and be a full time student but I managed. Short term suffering for long term goals. It's a skill that many in this country seem to lack.
Have you compared the average salary of the kinds of jobs that a college student can hold to the current cost of college? Has, since you went through school, the cost of college risen at the same rate as the compensation for jobs that are getable by people with only a high school diploma and who need flexible schedules?

Betty

08-29-2008, 07:41 AM

And how many of those jobs that used to be available are now outsourced?

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 07:52 AM

Well, you might want to care more about delivery [than anything else because, really, I've given you plenty of reason to think I'm a rhetorical retard and therefore it is safest to jump to the conclusion assuming me to intend the stupidest possible interpretation you can give my sentences] because...

What I didn't say -

Geez, Alex, you're an idiot because you care only about delivery and nothing about the substance.

What I did say -

I find it interesting that you seemed MORE interested in delivery than substance.

How is it possible that even that statement of mine can be construed as something confrontational as considering you a "rhetorical retard" and taking the "stupidest possible interpretation"?

Moonliner

08-29-2008, 07:57 AM

Have you compared the average salary of the kinds of jobs that a college student can hold to the current cost of college? Has, since you went through school, the cost of college risen at the same rate as the compensation for jobs that are getable by people with only a high school diploma and who need flexible schedules?

Which brings up another point. College is not for everyone. Everyone should be able to attend a college but not everyone should. If your dream is to find a cure to cancer, college is the place to be. If your dream is to drive a truck Harvard would be a bad investment. There is the perception in this country that everyone wants to go to college and be a doctor or rocket scientist. That's just not the case. A very large number of people want to drive a truck or punch an eight hour day making car parts and go home. I know a lot of these people. They look at me with a blackberry strapped to my side 24/7, carrying a laptop with me on vacation and only saying in hotels with Internet access and say man, your life sucks (a direct quote).

It's not just about money. It's about having the freedom to choose what you want. Obama speaks of opportunity, I like opportunity. But I also like keeping what I earn.

Alex

08-29-2008, 07:59 AM

Because, for me to have meant what you assumed I meant would be me saying something very stupid.

And you've been doing it a lot lately. So I've come to the conclusion that you're doing it on purpose because I also don't think you're stupid. But if I'm wrong, I apologize.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 08:04 AM

Wrong about me doing it on purpose or wrong about me being stupid?

You don't have to answer that.

I really don't make any attempt to bait. If no one believes that then I can do nothing to change that.

I meant absolutely no offense in suggesting that you were more interested in the delivery than the substance.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 08:06 AM

And regarding the whole college thing being discussed, while somewhat off the DNC subject, a recent article (http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/08/27/is_college_worth_it) discusses the true value of college vs the cost.

Dr. Nemko says that worst of all is that few of these former college students, having spent thousands of dollars, wind up in a job that required a college education. It's not uncommon to find them driving a taxi, working at a restaurant or department store, performing some other job that they could have had as a high school graduate or dropout.

Betty

08-29-2008, 08:12 AM

I love how you guys fight and make up. :)

3894

08-29-2008, 08:39 AM

JWBear

08-29-2008, 08:50 AM

Because some people believe financial standing is not a measure of whether you deserve to receive health care, an education, and a basic standard of living.

:snap: :snap: :snap: :snap: :snap:

BarTopDancer

08-29-2008, 09:23 AM

Which brings up another point. College is not for everyone. Everyone should be able to attend a college but not everyone should. If your dream is to find a cure to cancer, college is the place to be. If your dream is to drive a truck Harvard would be a bad investment. There is the perception in this country that everyone wants to go to college and be a doctor or rocket scientist. That's just not the case. A very large number of people want to drive a truck or punch an eight hour day making car parts and go home. I know a lot of these people. They look at me with a blackberry strapped to my side 24/7, carrying a laptop with me on vacation and only saying in hotels with Internet access and say man, your life sucks (a direct quote).

Sadly to do nearly anything besides drive a truck or work retail you have to have a degree. It's no secret I hate school. The only reason I went back is so I could have that stupid piece of paper which in theory will get me more money. I work in IT, I am not learning one damn thing about IT in school. One could say I'm learning how to "multi-task" but I already knew how. What I'm really learning is I'm busting my ass and hating life so I can have a stupid piece of paper that has nothing to do with my field so I can then stress about getting a job that will pay me more money, since I won't be getting a raise from my current job after I graduate.

Vocational training is no longer acceptable in most places. Anything less than a Bachelor degree will put you at the bottom of a stack of resumes for a corporate like job, even entry level. Many companies are requiring a BA/BS to be hired on entry level.

Moonliner

08-29-2008, 09:54 AM

Sadly to do nearly anything besides drive a truck or work retail you have to have a degree. It's no secret I hate school. The only reason I went back is so I could have that stupid piece of paper which in theory will get me more money. I work in IT, I am not learning one damn thing about IT in school. One could say I'm learning how to "multi-task" but I already knew how. What I'm really learning is I'm busting my ass and hating life so I can have a stupid piece of paper that has nothing to do with my field so I can then stress about getting a job that will pay me more money, since I won't be getting a raise from my current job after I graduate.

Vocational training is no longer acceptable in most places. Anything less than a Bachelor degree will put you at the bottom of a stack of resumes for a corporate like job, even entry level. Many companies are requiring a BA/BS to be hired on entry level.

I think what you mean is that there are very few jobs you would want to do that do not require a degree. There is no end of jobs that do not require a degree it's just that most of them either pay poorly or are unpleasant.

You have chosen to better yourself. To take a shot a landing a job that not only pays well but that you actually want to do. You're not waiting for some government handout to pave the way for you. You're stressing and suffering now for what you think is right in the future. You have a vision and you are working towards it. Even allowing for the fact that what you are studying is not related to IT the journey of getting your degree shows a prospective employer that you are willing to preserver. It sorts you out from the chaff. You rock girl.

While you may not see it now, looking for a job with once you have experience AND a nice fresh degree in your hand is actually a lot of fun.

Then once you have made it through, you have the job of your dreams and you are making a good living (if just), how much of that are you going to want to give back to the government so that they can allow individuals without your drive or ambition to enter college? How many of them will fall by the wayside when the figure out what a pain in the arse it is to actually work for a degree?

Alex

08-29-2008, 10:06 AM

Poverty is a moral failing? If you aren't successful it is just because you didn't try hard enough?

Moonliner

08-29-2008, 10:12 AM

Poverty is a moral failing? If you aren't successful it is just because you didn't try hard enough?

What is poverty? Are individuals trapped in it for life with no possibility of escape?

Alex

08-29-2008, 10:20 AM

Pick a definition of poverty, the question remains the same:

Is a person's existence in that category a sign of their moral failing to try hard enough?

Betty

08-29-2008, 10:32 AM

For some yes - for some no.

For those that are NOT in poverty, it isn't always a sign that they DID try enough.

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 10:35 AM

Um, emphatically, NO

Born with a silver spoon in your mouth, anyone?

* * * * * *

I just got a chance to watch the Obama Speech this morning, and I find his delivery lackluster and his promises trite. I hate the way the laundry lists of presidential hopefuls go anyway, as if they are running for King who can then run the country by fiat.

In any case, blah, blah, blah, heard it all before. Carter, Clinton, all the Dems and their laundry lists of goodness that NEVER FUKING HAPPENS.

Moonliner

08-29-2008, 10:38 AM

Pick a definition of poverty, the question remains the same:

Is a person's existence in that category a sign of their moral failing to try hard enough?

In the field of human endeavors there are few if any absolutes. Is it a moral failing in all cases for all people? Of course not.

When you look at someone like Obama who as gone from food stamps to Major party presidential nominee what do you see? A lottery winner? Hapenstance? What is keeping scores of others from following in his path and raising themselves out of trying circumstances?

As Obama said last night. Government needs to do for the people that which they cannot do for themselves. It does not need to do that which people don't want to do for themselves.

Alex

08-29-2008, 10:46 AM

When I look at Obama I see someone who is 70% a lottery winner and 30% self made.

When I look at myself (my starting position is probably worse than his), I see the same.

Regardless of how hard you try, huge amounts of luck are involved in success.

Now, I agree that not all of Obama's proposals are things I'd support. But you said that what we have now is sufficient for anybody to succeed.

It some cases it takes hard work and sacrifice, but it is possible for anyone with the programs we have now.

So, does this mean that anybody who fails to achieve success has simply not tried hard enough or sacrificed enough? You, apparently, would say yes. Obama, apparently, would say no and that there is more government should be doing. He was also quite clear (whether he is right or wrong) in saying that the programs that exist now are not the same as they once were and have been undermined by recent political history.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-29-2008, 10:55 AM

I thought the speech was great, of course. He said a lot of things that needed saying.

I love that he set the bar high, ala Kennedy's moon landing challenge, by saying he'd challenge us to get off foreign oil dependency in 10 years. It was so amazing I rewound it and watched that line again.

I truly am proud of our country for getting Hillary Clinton so close and Barack the nomination. It's a different world than it was 4 years ago, no mistake.

---

On another note...I have to say that this week of watching Dem speeches with new eyes and ears has hammered home why liberals and conservatives can easily dismiss each other's concepts and ideas. The words mean different things.

If you have never worked in education, you may have trouble understanding why teachers want higher salaries. If you have never relied on low paying, blue collar jobs as my father has his whole life, you may have trouble understanding why he wants to keep every dollar he earns. If you come from a military family you may have trouble understanding how someone can protest a war waged by our own country. If you grew up a vegetarian you may have trouble understanding how anyone would want to hunt for their food, as some families have done for generations.

It may sound obvious, but it's more true than we realize. The words mean different things. The speeches mean nothing to those that don't speak the language. Words like "deserve", "help", and "freedom" mean far different things.

The truth is that you can't have this large a landmass with this many people and not have large disparity in experience. Red and Blue is inevitable. It was the story of the Civil War, it was the story of America's independence.

We have to remember that we are two sides of the same coin. That without the workers, without the teachers, without the intellectuals, without the muscle, we are nothing. We must be able to keep what we earn to some degree and give it to each other to some degree. We need to think of ourselves and also think of our country. We need to disagree and still see that there is truth in what the other is saying.

Seriously, people. The conservatives have a point, the liberals have a point. Right now, I'd say it's pretty easy to see that we need to throw the current rascals out and go for some change. And, God/fate/Discordia willing, we will do a bit of good in this world.

I'm Cadaverous Pallor and I approved this message. Hell, I wrote it!

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 11:15 AM

I approve Cadaverous Pallor's message, too ... and after that speech (er, post), she's got my vote! :D

I love that he set the bar high, ala Kennedy's moon landing challenge, by saying he'd challenge us to get off foreign oil dependency in 10 years. It was so amazing I rewound it and watched that line again.

I loved that parallel, too. It would mean everything to me coming from Barack the President. It means zip to me coming from Barack the Candidate.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 11:19 AM

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 11:23 AM

More than that, I don't think they should be solely concerned with defense (though they had better be prepared for it). They need more than that. Most people don't know squat about Obama, too many people don't trust him because they don't know him or think he's a Muslim or won't vote for a black man.

He needs to get an effective message out there beyond the core Democrats, make people WANT to vote for HIM ... and not just rely on the winds of change to sweep him into office.

BarTopDancer

08-29-2008, 11:41 AM

I think what you mean is that there are very few jobs you would want to do that do not require a degree. There is no end of jobs that do not require a degree it's just that most of them either pay poorly or are unpleasant.

You have chosen to better yourself. To take a shot a landing a job that not only pays well but that you actually want to do. You're not waiting for some government handout to pave the way for you. You're stressing and suffering now for what you think is right in the future. You have a vision and you are working towards it. Even allowing for the fact that what you are studying is not related to IT the journey of getting your degree shows a prospective employer that you are willing to preserver. It sorts you out from the chaff. You rock girl.

While you may not see it now, looking for a job with once you have experience AND a nice fresh degree in your hand is actually a lot of fun.

Then once you have made it through, you have the job of your dreams and you are making a good living (if just), how much of that are you going to want to give back to the government so that they can allow individuals without your drive or ambition to enter college? How many of them will fall by the wayside when the figure out what a pain in the arse it is to actually work for a degree?

Frankly, I think it's complete BS that I need a degree to do my job, where if I was born 3 years earlier, or taken a slightly different path out of high school I wouldn't. I'm not stressing and suffering now so I can do what I think is right for the future. I am stressing and suffering now instead of doing it 5 years ago because I need that stupid fvcking piece of paper to get a job (even doing what I'm doing now) and not be overlooked for someone with a degree and no experience. It's complete BS. People with years of experience and no degree are now passed up for people with no experience and a degree.

I love to learn. I hate school. That's why I really didn't peruse college after high school, or one of the reasons why. I resent having very little free time because companies aren't willing to take experience anymore.

And in 20 years when everyone has a Masters degree I'll be forced to go back to school, like so many people who don't have a BA/BS degree but have 20+ years of experience are being forced to now.

When everyone has a degree, no one is special.

I think Europe and other countries have it right. You don't have to pursue a degree from a university to be successful. Trade school and other forms of higher learning are acceptable and not looked down upon there.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 12:00 PM

Boy, I'll give the McCain camp this one: they sure did know how to wipe one of the best speeches ever delivered off of the face of the media planet.
Wow.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-29-2008, 12:19 PM

I really like your post, CP. I really, really do.
:)

With that being said, I worry that the Obama camp and many of his supporters are being overly optimistic at his chances of winning. McCain has been in Washington DC for as long as he has because he knows what it takes to thrive there. I don't think he'll be bashful at all in his campaign. There will be a late in the game card played by him or some Swift Boat-esque PAC that I feel Obama's camp will be unprepared for. That is what worries me. That is what causes me to watch his speech with a glaze over my eyes. It's a great speech, he's a great speaker but will he be able to overcome what will inevitably be thrown at him? I don't know.

I think what Obama and his supporters should be doing is looking at this whole thing as a huge challenge and not be as assured in themselves that winning is no problem. They need to look at this from the eyes of Karl Rove and think about what someone like him will be throwing at them and hitting back with the same intensity. That is the way to win.There were some pretty intense words said about McCain by Obama in his speech.

I don't feel that this is a landslide, which is why I'm trying to raise money.

I know you're concerned, Brad, and so am I. If you're really worried, try to help, in any way you can. Talk to people. Make phone calls or write letters to the editor. Winning takes bravery in the face of adversity. We have to keep our eyes on the goal, not the ground.

Kerry, Dole, Dukakis, Mondale - none of them were confident in themselves and their message. They backed down from attacks. No one believed in them, because they didn't believe in themselves. If the Obama campaign didn't exude confidence to lead, no one would believe that they can lead. Don't mistake the confidence for surety that they will win.

Worrying about something won't change it. If there is hand wringing to be done because Obama doesn't win, I'll do it in November. Part of the power of this campaign is that we have been hopeless for so long - now is our chance to prove that America can right itself. We need to stand strong!

Be positive, Brad. :) Stop that naysaying this minute. Yes, We Can! :D

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 12:23 PM

Boy, I'll give the McCain camp this one: they sure did know how to wipe one of the best speeches ever delivered off of the face of the media planet.
Wow.
Yes, showing very poor sportsmanship. He perhaps should have waited a day, but of course, the calendar threw that day into a 3-day weekend leading up to his own Convention. So perhaps it's just the stupid luck of the draw to have one Convention follow right on the heels of the other.

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 12:27 PM

And, CP, I suppose we could try to raise money (and I applaud you for doing just that) ... but there's no one to talk to in California. The state is LOCKED for him.

There's no point in chatting up our neighbors or grocery clerks or postman. The state has consistently voted for the Democratic presidential candidate since before anyone here was born.

Personally, I'm not good at raising money, and I don't like doing it. So I'm officially out of the fight to elect Obama (though I will make a small donation myself).

Prudence

08-29-2008, 12:33 PM

So are student loans now considered an government handout for those of us too lazy to work hard and pay our own way?

Moonliner

08-29-2008, 01:01 PM

So are student loans now considered an government handout for those of us too lazy to work hard and pay our own way?

Certainly not by me, they fall under the category of existing programs that work or at least used to work. Apparently there have been some negative changes since I last delved into the subject in depth.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 01:08 PM

Be positive, Brad. :) Stop that naysaying this minute. Yes, We Can! :D
I hear you, but I'd rather be surprised by good news than have my smile wiped from my face when I wasn't expecting it.

I think it's realistic to think that he doesn't have this election in the bag.

But I admire your positive attitude, J. It's just that I had that same positive attitude for Kerry and Gore and well...we know what happened with those guys.

And please don't think I'm putting you down personally in any way. I admire what you're doing. I want Obama to win.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 01:20 PM

I think it's realistic to think that he doesn't have this election in the bag.

But I admire your positive attitude, J. It's just that I had that same positive attitude for Kerry and Gore and well...we know what happened with those guys.

I just don't see "positive attitude" and "confident he's going to win" as the same thing. We have in Barak Obama one of the most exciting, intelligent, inspirational public figures this country has seen in a long time. I'm THRILLED that he's even been nominated. And whether I think he's going to win or not, the prospect of him winning has me energized.

Is that positivity going to cause him to win? Maybe, maybe not. But it's a sure bet that it will give him better odds than, "Ooooh, I dunno. What if he doesn't win?"

His campaign is different than any I've seen. His positivity hasn't lead to over confidence or complancy. It's lead to momentum and motivation. That's what it's going to take to win.

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 01:28 PM

But again, unless we are going to hire a bus and go to Ohio or Michigan or somewhere 2,000 miles away, our attitudes here in California mean nothing.

And, with all due respect, I think people who find the Obama campaign uniquely inspiring (with respect to others, not themselves) are being a little short-sighted. The Clinton campaign had the same effect on people, and much of the same pie-in-the-sky hopes and promises and, may I say, much better speechifying inspired all that ... just as Obama is doing now.

That's why it seems a re-tread to me. And frankly, though Obama's was the better speech, he still can't deliver one like Clinton. Perhaps it was a poor choice to have Bill speak the night before.

* * * *

That said, I enjoyed Obama's speech and I think he's a fine enough orator. It was fun watching the Convention this year. I didn't realize the Dems had so many heavyweights. I enjoyed the speeches by Bill and Hillary, Al Gore and especially Dennis Kucinich far better than I did Obama's. I heard Bill Richardson gave a good speech, too, and that - of all people - John Kerry wasn't bad, but I missed those.

And they had to sideline Jimmy Carter and John Edwards.

Do the Republicans have anything like a similar line-up of political "Stars?"

Tom

08-29-2008, 01:30 PM

AP reports that almost 40 million people watched Obama's speech. That's more people than watched the Olympics opening ceremony, this year's Academy Awards, or the finale of American Idol.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 01:37 PM

I just don't see "positive attitude" and "confident he's going to win" as the same thing. We have in Barak Obama one of the most exciting, intelligent, inspirational public figures this country has seen in a long time. I'm THRILLED that he's even been nominated. And whether I think he's going to win or not, the prospect of him winning has me energized.

Is that positivity going to cause him to win? Maybe, maybe not. But it's a sure bet that it will give him better odds than, "Ooooh, I dunno. What if he doesn't win?"

His campaign is different than any I've seen. His positivity hasn't lead to over confidence or complancy. It's lead to momentum and motivation. That's what it's going to take to win.

I understand. There is a distinction between "positive attitude" and "confident..." But the optimism was the same when Gore and Kerry were running.

I agree, Obama's is a very exciting campaign. And I'm not saying to throw in the towel or to mope, what I'm saying is that starting a dialogue about "what if it isn't in the bag" or "he could lose" can help as much as wishing for a win.

I heard many people say "I am energized by Gore" and "I've never volunteered for a candidate before until Kerry's nomination".

In my opinion, I do think Obama has to outdo Gore and Kerry in order to win. And it's gotta be more than just positivity that's going to get him there because both of those campaigns had it too.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-29-2008, 01:39 PM

Can't do anything in CA, eh? Check this out. (http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/nvdfcsept12)

I will be in Europe for this first drive, but Oct, hmmmmmmmmm

3894

08-29-2008, 01:42 PM

The chair of the county's Republican Party lives behind us and is having yet another fundraiser bbq tonight. Jack the beagle will be out in our yard arrroooooooing at the people on the other side of the fence.

Yes, we can.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 01:42 PM

But again, unless we are going to hire a bus and go to Ohio or Michigan or somewhere 2,000 miles away, our attitudes here in California mean nothing.All I'm saying is if someone is sitting there thinking, "Oh god, what if Democrats don't keep up the energy to get him elected. Oh god, it's horrible. Oh god, he's going to lose!!" it is liable to become self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm a believer that, even though California isn't a battle ground state, overall results are moved by large forces. And large forces are created by small elements. Mood matters, the tone of discourse matters. Whether someone in Ohio hears what you or I post individually matters not. But every little statement adds up to something. Every poll result that shows a slip in Obama's standing in the worthless but flashy popular vote adds fuel to the defeatist fire.

Defeatism breeds defeat.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-29-2008, 01:45 PM

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 01:49 PM

Defeatism breeds defeat.
I think there's a distinction between defeatism and thinking he doesn't necessarily have it in the bag.

I don't agree with iSm. I think a vote is a vote. Yes, there's the whole electoral college thing, but the numbers are still there in the end. How many people voted in California is important even if we're a sure thing. And I wonder how many times people thought not to vote because their state was going to lean one way and then, surprise, it went the other way on Election Day.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 01:55 PM

And Brad, I am not disagreeing with you, really. I know this isn't a lock for him, and he will have to fight. And when he fights, all of us have to stand with him, strong and unafraid of scrutiny. There was a reason Barack said in his speech that he is ready for to debate McCain regarding his ability to lead - because it will be a battle, and because it is important he win it.
There were a ton of things he said in his speech that made me extremely happy. He has a stronger fighting spirit it seems than Kerry. He addressed every single slam that was out there against him and was firm about it.
That made me very excited.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 02:02 PM

I think there's a distinction between defeatism and thinking he doesn't necessarily have it in the bag.
And I think you're misreading positivity for complacency.

And you've got to be kidding about Gore and Kerry. No two blander candidates could have been nominated. No one was excited for them to win. THEY hardly seem excited at their prospects of winning. Some were optimistic that the party was strong, but no one cared whether it was Gore, Kerry, or a plank of wood up there.

I'm not saying Obama's charisma and the excitement around him are guarantees he'll win. I'm saying those are the qualities that are keeping people motivated to see it through. Those are the qualities that have a libretarian ex Rush Limbaugh follower raising funds for him.

Of course he might not win. I just see continually saying, "But he might not win," as wasted energy. You vote for him. You tell people why you're voting for him. You contribute what effort and/or money you can to convince more people to vote for him. You talk about how the country will be better if they vote for him. Those are the things that matter for getting him elected.

At best, talking about "he might lose" does nothing but give you something to worry about. At worst it saps the motivation and momentum he needs to win.

BarTopDancer

08-29-2008, 02:11 PM

And I wonder how many times people thought not to vote because their state was going to lean one way and then, surprise, it went the other way on Election Day.

I wonder the same thing. That's why it's important to remind people to go out and vote. When the majority that brings the Dem vote to CA stay home because someone else will vote the other party will win and people will wonder why.

Alex

08-29-2008, 02:15 PM

And, with all due respect, I think people who find the Obama campaign uniquely inspiring (with respect to others, not themselves) are being a little short-sighted. The Clinton campaign had the same effect on people, and much of the same pie-in-the-sky hopes and promises and, may I say, much better speechifying inspired all that ... just as Obama is doing now.

I don't want to at all come of as saying this isn't true for you or your circle at the time. But as someone living on solidly liberal college campuses during both of Clinton's campaigns my feeling is that in that segment of the population Obama is far outshining the impact Clinton had. Among college kids the only politician I noticed having any impact during that era like Obama is now was Wellstone.

Whether that enthusiasm drives that group to actually vote remains to be seen.

But there is definitely also a tinge of the old thing where young people always think their experiences are the best ever. Anybody under 30 really experienced the Clinton campaigns. Kennedy is a essentially political myth to anybody under 60.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 02:16 PM

No, I'm not kidding about Gore and Kerry. There was a drive back then to help them. People were all revved up to help. But was it because it was that people were afraid of the alternative? Most likely. So, yes, in this case it may be different.

But this gut feeling I have about Obama not winning (although he should) was the same gut feeling I had about both Al and John and it was right around the same time of year 4 and 8 years ago. Heck, I want to be proved wrong.

Doesn't worry sometimes help? Fear of failure motivates people to do better. Positivity alone is just positivity.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 02:38 PM

Doesn't worry sometimes help? Fear of failure motivates people to do better. Positivity alone is just positivity.I've always found fear of failure a terrible motivator. I'm much more interested in focusing on reaching for success than worrying about what happens if you happen to fail.

There's only one way to succeed at anything, and that's to do it. Either you do it and you succeed, or you do it and you fail. What does it matter if there's a possibility of failure? That doesn't change what needs to be done.

Morrigoon

08-29-2008, 02:46 PM

While you may not see it now, looking for a job with once you have experience AND a nice fresh degree in your hand is actually a lot of fun.

I disagree.

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 02:50 PM

And you've got to be kidding about Gore and Kerry. No two blander candidates could have been nominated. No one was excited for them to win.

Too bad about Gore. Such a poor candidate then, such a better one now. I found his speech last night more compelling than the actual candidate's.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 02:51 PM

Gore made me laugh (read it, didn't watch it). His hindsight as far as what the country would be like now should he have been elected was amazing.

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 02:57 PM

As Alex said, scaeagles, you're missing a good percentage of the effect of a speech if you merely read it.

Speeches, by their very nature, are not meant to be read. They are meant to be heard.

BarTopDancer

08-29-2008, 03:02 PM

scaeagles,

You really should try to watch Obama's speech. The content may be the same as what you read, and may be what it is important to you, bu the delivery is what will make/made a huge impact on others. I don't think anyone can make a truly educated statement on the impact the speech will have made without actually listening to it.

Possession is 9/10th of the law and delivery is about 7/10ths of the impact.

Tom

08-29-2008, 03:06 PM

AAnd you've got to be kidding about Gore and Kerry. No two blander candidates could have been nominated. No one was excited for them to win.

You're wrong about this. Just because you weren't excited about them doesn't mean no one was. Some of us were excited about them and donated to them and travelled to other states to campaign for them.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-29-2008, 03:11 PM

Fear of failure only works if it motivates one to do all they can to help. If you feel that you're probably going to fail, how hard are you going to try? Simply saying that you predicted those outcomes and you predict another negative outcome actually hurts. For the forest to be green, each leaf must be green. What if all of us leaves agreed, saying "he's probably not going to win"?

Same goes for assassination talk. Kinahora, poo poo poo. Such a shame, really, that we're in this wonderful moment regardless of November, and people can't enjoy it and add to the momentum with their own shining beacon.

As for Leo listening to the speech - as I said before, I think that he won't hear it the same as others might. The words mean different things. It couldn't hurt, though after seeing his posts here, I don't think the speech will persuade him. ;) That's as negative as I'll get...

I can't wait to watch the Republican Convention just to see just how much I don't understand of their language these days.

Morrigoon

08-29-2008, 03:12 PM

LSPoorEeyorick

08-29-2008, 03:23 PM

I have to agree. With Tom, and with Brad.

Certainly, I have been with Obama since his speech four years ago. I've wanted him to run for president ever since. I want very badly for him to win. But if you'll notice, I'm not in the political threads anymore. I don't know how many of you recall, but I used to spend the majority of my time in the political threads, pre-2004. I was empassioned, I was actively volunteering, I was full of hope. And then, I was completely crushed. Heartbroken. My faith in the people of this country was shaken, and my willingness to follow politics as closely all but lost.

I would've thought, that night four years ago, that I would be on the front-lines for Obama. And surely, I'll be donating, I've been talking to those around me about it, I've done what I feel I can. But I can't say that I don't live in fear of being crushed again. I'm terrified that McCain and his beauty queen (by which I mean second wife and/or VP) are going to appeal to those who don't educate themselves on the issues. I'm terrified that there are more people who don't educate themselves on the issues than we imagine. Last time, I was SO SURE my candidate - who I liked, and for whom I campaigned - was going to win. I couldn't imagine it'd be otherwise. It was. Never again will I be able to say that anything is certain. I have hope that this is possible. I have fear that it isn't.

Ghoulish Delight

08-29-2008, 03:24 PM

You're wrong about this. Just because you weren't excited about them doesn't mean no one was. Some of us were excited about them and donated to them and travelled to other states to campaign for them.
Fair enough. It was hyperbole on my part.

I've edited my response out because it's beside the point. The point is, to me it's not about certainty he's going to win or not. To me, it's about the reality that there is one path to victory. That path is to remain motivated and positive. The ONLY guarantee is that if people DON'T remain motivated and positive, he will lose.

Maybe I'll feel differently in November if he does lose, but from where I stand now, I will be disappointed if he loses but I will not regret putting my energy into it. Whereas if I don't put my energy into it and he does lose, I will feel nothing but regret.

Tom

08-29-2008, 03:29 PM

I was just about to express total agreement with your response.

Tom

08-29-2008, 03:30 PM

But I will say that I agree totally with your edited response. It was my feeling the last two times around.

LSPoorEeyorick

08-29-2008, 03:45 PM

LSPoorEeyorick

08-29-2008, 03:49 PM

Maybe I'll feel differently in November if he does lose, but from where I stand now, I will be disappointed if he loses but I will not regret putting my energy into it.

I highly doubt CP would regret her spent energy either - but listening to her impassioned campaigning reminds me of my impassioned campaigning. For our country's sake, I want Obama to win. And for her sake - I do not want to watch her go through what I went through.

That said, I also agree that just because that the possibility of failure exists, it doesn't nullify the need for action. (Yet, here I sit, screenplay unfinished, active campaign for Obama not yet begun. Perhaps I'm just the weaker person.)

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 04:01 PM

Will there be an RNC thread, I wonder?

9/1-9/4

I'm surprised they didn't schedule the RNC to coincide with 9/11's anniversary.
:rolleyes:

Hawai'i's Governor, Linda Lingle(cheese) is speaking on 9/2. Can't staaaand her.

I'd be interested in hearing several speeches...

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 04:02 PM

(Yet, here I sit, screenplay unfinished, active campaign for Obama not yet begun. Perhaps I'm just the weaker person.)
Well, you do have a crazy schedule, m'dear. I'm amazed how you keep up with it.
:)

(Not saying that CP doesn't...)

Morrigoon

08-29-2008, 04:13 PM

I don't regret the energy I put into the campaign. But I am bitterly disappointed in the people who voted for Bush, still to this day. If I am at all pessimistic, it is not doubt in Obama, or in any of you. It is doubt in the unnamed masses who watched the first four years of this administration and actually thought it merited a second four.

Guilty. But it was kind of a "two turds in a bowl - pick one" sort of election. I just chose the wrong turd, and believe me I regret it (not that my vote, as a Californian, mattered)

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 04:30 PM

As for Leo listening to the speech - as I said before, I think that he won't hear it the same as others might. The words mean different things. It couldn't hurt, though after seeing his posts here, I don't think the speech will persuade him. ;) That's as negative as I'll get...

I can't wait to watch the Republican Convention just to see just how much I don't understand of their language these days.

There are many brilliant orators who are and were despicable people, able to persuade with passion or personality. I am NOT suggesting Obama is a despicable person in the least so don't read it that way. I find that reading what someone has to say in a speech takes the magic of personality and charm or whatever the individual possesses out of the equation so I can focus on what they've actually said.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-29-2008, 04:31 PM

The ONLY guarantee is that if people DON'T remain motivated and positive, he will lose.Well put, worth repeating.

And for her sake - I do not want to watch her go through what I went through.Thank you for thinking of me. :) I know I'm an all or nothing person, and I don't get halfway involved in anything.

After Obama lost in the CA primary, I was disappointed, but mostly I felt like I hadn't done enough to help. (True, I wasn't as committed to his candidacy as I am now.) Regret that I didn't try is much worse for me than having a hope crushed.

Ironically - or perhaps, not - a few weeks ago I realized how negative my point of view was on a lot of things. How my interior monologue was bringing me down, as it was always criticizing myself and everything around me. I resolved to do better by myself and others. Everyone, whether their conscious of it or not, is affected by their monologue. And we affect each other with our moods.

I'm sorry things didn't work out for Kerry supporters and others that have invested their heart into campaigns. Once bitten, twice shy, and I totally understand if you have to sit this one out. But please, please be positive. Being negative only hurts. Worrying doesn't help.

These days, I often catch myself being the negative one at work....."Looks like we won't have much to do today." "There's no way we'll get the public to be ok with this new policy." "I'm so tired/bored/busy/unhappy because..." I realize that while these thoughts may be true, voicing them does nothing but bring everyone down, down, down.

I'm not saying don't voice your opinions. I'm saying, if you want him to win, hope he will win. I loved GD's quote so much I'll say it again - The ONLY guarantee is that if people DON'T remain motivated and positive, he will lose.

And now you know how much I would post if I didn't have a job.

Betty

08-29-2008, 04:47 PM

Reading your comments sort of reminded me a pep talk to a team before the big game. The idea is to get everyone excited and ready to really fight and win! They pump everyone up and they're all chearing - and they hear a lot of positive talk and reinforcment. Lot's of "we ARE the best" kind of talk.

No one goes to the team before a big game and says: Now guys, I know you're worried about what will happen if you don't win. You're going to feel really bad about it and the other team is going to make you really miserable. I'm really worried that you guys aren't going to do a good enough job. Remember how you sucked in the last game? The way things are going you could suck again this time.

The power of postive thinking is a well known phrase for good reason.

Gemini Cricket

08-29-2008, 04:50 PM

I disagree.
As a coach, I'd say, 'Do your best. But don't get cocky, that could lead to you getting your ass kicked.'

innerSpaceman

08-29-2008, 04:57 PM

I find that reading what someone has to say in a speech takes the magic of personality and charm or whatever the individual possesses out of the equation so I can focus on what they've actually said.

All well and good, but don't pretend to know whether a speech was effective or not. It goes way beyond the mere words.

Not that the words aren't important. Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural remains perhaps the best political speech of all time, and I never got to hear it. So I have NO IDEA whether it was effective in its day. Perhaps the speech was ruined by Lincoln's poor delivery, I have no idea.

But I can't claim to know all about the 2nd Inaugural just because I read it in letters four feet high carved in marble on the walls of the Lincoln Memorial and it made me weep. Or just because it's rightly famous and well-studied. I didn't live in Lincoln's times and so I can never know.

Not to equate Obama or Gore or anyone alive today with Lincoln, but what a shame to have the opportunity to hear a speech, to see it delivered, and not take advantage of it. If I'd have been in D.C. to hear Lincoln give that address, but decided to just read it in the Gazette ... I would have jumped in front of that bullet at Ford's Theater.

scaeagles

08-29-2008, 05:30 PM

All well and good, but don't pretend to know whether a speech was effective or not. It goes way beyond the mere words.

I haven't alluded to that I thought it was ineffective, nor have I suggested that others adopt my.....philosophy, for lack of a better word....of reading rather than listening.

In fact, earlier I said I had no doubt it was delivered brilliantly.

How far does "it" go beyond mere words? If reading the speech of Lincoln made you weep, without the experience of him saying it, than weren't the words themselves powerful enough to evoke that response? If Lincoln were a slow speaker or had speech mannerisms and inflections you found annoying, perhaps hearing the speech would have diminished the words he was saying.

Again, it's just how I prefer to approach political speeches. There is also the advantage of not having to endure endless applause interruptions.

BarTopDancer

08-29-2008, 05:48 PM

H, I'm sorta with you on your thoughts of disappointment.

I will admit to voting for McCain back in 2000. I was devastated that he lost. I didn't campaign for him, but the feelings of disappointment were there. I am trying so hard to not think that Obama will win by a landslide. I don't want to go through it again.

CA is ridiculously liberal when compared to the rest of the country. We're surrounded by those who think like we do. It's easy to slip into a mindset that the rest of the country does too. But the truth is, there is a significant portion of the country that thinks Obama is the anti-christ and if McCain doesn't win terrible things will happen.

Tom

08-29-2008, 08:25 PM

Ghoulish Delight

08-30-2008, 10:56 AM

I disagree.
As a coach, I'd say, 'Do your best. But don't get cocky, that could lead to you getting your ass kicked.'I don't see anyone being cocky. Exactly the opposite, I see people who have never before given an ounce of themselves for a candidacy putting in effort to help where they can. That's not cockiness, that's commitment.

innerSpaceman

08-30-2008, 11:54 AM

Then again, when Lincoln gave his speech, he knew that the vast majority of people would never hear the speech and would only read it in their local newspaper. He likely wrote it with that in mind, as Obama wrote his knowing that he would be delivering it before tens of millions of people on tv.
Good point ... If a speech is written to be primarily read, then that's an ok way to experience it (if the letters are inscribed in marble 4 feet high and near a tremendously imposing sculpture of the author, so much the better).

But if it's designed to be interactive with a crowd, it is certainly not composed as if to be merely read. Perhaps the most extreme example of this at the DNC would have been my favorite speech, the one by Dennis Kucinich. The written words would seem nearly stupid ... while the delivered speech was the most crowd-raising oration by the Dems at the entire convention. Lost in a mid-afternoon at the Pepsi Center, and I daresay it got better crowd response than Obama's speech at the stadium.

scaeagles

08-30-2008, 12:00 PM

Believe it or not, I like Kucinich. Seriously. He says what he means without reservation. You don't have to guess where this guy is at or what he really thinks and he is uncompromising.

innerSpaceman

08-30-2008, 12:09 PM

Wow, well if you want to risk 6 minutes to test my hypothesis, here's the bit of my earlier post with a link to the Kucinich speech:

My favorite speech at the convention today was by Dennis Kucinich. Short, to the point, invigorating, crowd-pleasing, catchy and enthusiastically delivered. Heheh, it didn't make prime-time tv, but here's Kucinich's Rousing Address (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9H6Ci1vmnw) at the 2008 Democratic National Convention.

scaeagles

08-30-2008, 12:15 PM

I'll read it....but be sure I didn't say I liked his policies and I regard him as a little on the kook side....but I like him because of his genuineness.

Oh - wait. It's a youtube link. You mean I have to WATCH it???? That would be violating my policy, ISM. I will consider it.

innerSpaceman

08-30-2008, 12:19 PM

Yes, the whole point is to violate YOUR policy to test MY hypothesis.

I am really curious to know if you find a substantive difference between the written and the spoken in this case. And whether you find the delivery subversive of the true message, or the essence of it.

CoasterMatt

08-30-2008, 12:25 PM

Kucinich's speech was the best of the convention, imho.

Cadaverous Pallor

08-30-2008, 04:22 PM

Ok, I watched iSm's link to Kucinich's speech. Um, have to say, it didn't thrill me. He pauses after most words, very halting. He bounced a lot and used nearly cartoonish hand gestures. Shots of the audience showed how I felt - he looked silly. He also seemed really tiny. Sorry...but he looked like he needed a clown suit.

He didn't say anything new either. I did like the "wake up america" part but I think I'd like it better written instead of spoken by him.

Not Afraid

08-30-2008, 05:17 PM

I overheard 2 old black dudes chewing the fat today.

Man 1: So, it looks like McCain threw a good one at Barak by choosing that woman.
Man 2: I don't think so. I think he just insulted a bunch of women in this country. She's no Hillary.

:)

BDBopper

08-30-2008, 06:25 PM

Those two people are absolutely right. McCain's choice was made to excite the base disguised as somewhat authentic ploy to appeal to women. Yes some new women are coming on board...but the base is extremely jazzed and more united than the Democrats' base last week going into their convention. That's what McCain needed and wanted. I'm surprised the media hasn't caught on to that one.

JWBear

08-30-2008, 06:57 PM

Yes... let the media mention her fundamentalism as much as possible. I hope it gets constant air time. the more independents and moderates that hear it, the more likely the McCain campaign will go down in flames! :)

Alex

08-31-2008, 12:12 AM

I have to go with CP on the Kucinich evaluation. I suspect that one looks better on paper than listening to him.

He talks like his teleprompter is stuttering (though I suspect he wasn't using one) and he bounces around like he put too much sugar on his Froot Loops.

But that may all be because he had 15 minutes of things he wanted to say but was only given 6.

innerSpaceman

08-31-2008, 12:26 AM

Alex

08-31-2008, 12:43 AM

It is also the case that Kucinich's speech and the speaches of the Obamas/Biden/Clintons had very different purposes. While I've generally heard good things about Kucinich's speech, if Obama had given it in his acceptance speech I think it would be regarded (by party failful and opposition alike) as an umitigated disaster.

Ghoulish Delight

08-31-2008, 01:01 AM

ya know, it occurs to me i haven't seen the Kuchinich speech myself, i merely heard it.

Hmmm, are speeches actually meant to be seen? Are they performances, or are they, in essence, speech ... and thus can best be experienced aurally?Most people who heard the Nixon/Kennedy debate on the radio felt that Nixon won, while those who saw it on TV gave it to Kennedy.

scaeagles

08-31-2008, 06:33 AM

I read it and it was typical Kucinich, and again, he is one the most transparent and honest guys out there about what he thinks. Of course, nothing he says sways me, but that's OK.

I watched it and was....well, amused. This is a case where mannerisms and delivery definitely made an impact distracting from his message. Which is exactly why I read political speeches.

So take THAT, ISM! Your evil experiment has failed!:)

3894

08-31-2008, 07:33 AM

This is a case where mannerisms and delivery definitely made an impact distracting from his message. Which is exactly why I read political speeches.

Will not make deprecatory Ronald Reagan comment, will not, will not will not

But I'm thinkin' it.

scaeagles

08-31-2008, 10:57 AM

Different people get distracted by different things. While I thought Reagan was a terrific communicator, I more appreciated his policies. You can say you found him distracting or unpleasant to listen to, but I would figure you'd be in the minority (perhapos not here, but overall).

innerSpaceman

08-31-2008, 12:15 PM

I couldn't stand to LOOK AT the man. Not to get into it all, but Reagan is to me what Hillary is to scaeagles. As MbC wisely pointed out, our respective opinions of these public figures make them out to be more like sinister characters from a political novel than real, human politicians of great ambition.

But that's the case. I won't be swayed. Neither, I daresay, will scaeagles.

scaeagles

08-31-2008, 02:28 PM

Indeed.

Tom

09-02-2008, 03:22 PM

Looks like Obama might have his bounce after all. Today's polls:

Gallup - Obama up 8
CBS - Obama up 8
Rasmussen - Obama up 6
CNN - Obama up 2
USA Today - Obama up 7
Hotline - Obama up 9

innerSpaceman

09-02-2008, 03:38 PM

I don't think that's Obama's bounce as much as McCain's trounce.

Or, taken a different way, maybe Obama did get a bounce from the party's national convention.

Just not the convention of his party.

sleepyjeff

09-02-2008, 04:02 PM

On the way home from the convention:

Must be nice to know G-d is on your side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrBus8ORR78

If a Republican had said this.....it would be on every news network 24/7(which kinda proves my point about the media leaning left)

innerSpaceman

09-02-2008, 04:07 PM

In this day and age, why are people stupid enough to say anything anywhere?

Morrigoon

09-02-2008, 10:56 PM

sleepyjeff

09-02-2008, 11:17 PM

Pfft. Yes it's dumb, but who hasn't made the occasional "God's on our team" joke? It's supposed to be private humor, not a public broadcast.

But just goes to show, if you're in politics and the public eye, you gotta be REALLY careful all the time.

What is it they say about having a good character? Doing the right thing when no one else is looking or some such thing????

The point is we have a man who is a big wig of the DNC, a party that has been accused by the right of privately hoping the war and the economy go badly so they can take political advantage of it, grinnning ear to ear and beside himself with glee because a hurricane will hit a major US city on the same day as his political enemies convention.....

Pretend for a moment that the hurricane was due to hit on the night of Obama's big speech and that Carl Rove had said the things Fowler said.....can anyone hear honestly say that we wouldn't have a 400 post thread about it by now???

wendybeth

09-02-2008, 11:54 PM

sleepyjeff

09-03-2008, 12:11 AM

I'm also fairly certain Rove has said far worse.:rolleyes:

Worse then being gleefull about a Hurricane that for all he knew, might have killed thousands?

Do tell.

wendybeth

09-03-2008, 01:10 AM

Gleeful is a bit of an overstatement- at least he's not in charge of the government who did allow thousands to die, and many more to suffer for a ridiculously long time.

scaeagles

09-03-2008, 04:51 AM

Why are you slamming on Nagin like that? Oh wait....you aren't talking about Nagin.

innerSpaceman

09-03-2008, 06:36 AM

With the caveat that Wenchy's pointed out the big and important difference between bad talk and bad action, Fowler was a fuktard for thinking such a thing, for saying such a thing, and for saying such a thing out loud in this day and age of ... well, exactly what happened, being YouTubed.

Idiot.

Ghoulish Delight

09-03-2008, 07:01 AM

At the risk of school-yard tactics...the fundies started it.

I've made that exact joke. With fundies running around calling Katrina God's punishment against the 'mos and the other sinners, that leaves as perfectly fair game the counter joke that, "Gee, doesn't this prove that he's on OUR side?"

scaeagles

09-03-2008, 07:22 AM

Well, except this one didn't cause near the devastation. I guess that means God is MORE on the side of the right.

Relax...it's a joke....

sleepyjeff

09-03-2008, 07:37 AM

Gleeful is a bit of an overstatement-

Watch the video again....if not for the seatbelt light he would have stood up and danced a jig.

Ghoulish Delight

09-03-2008, 08:30 AM

Well, except this one didn't cause near the devastation. I guess that means God is MORE on the side of the right.

Relax...it's a joke....
Yes, a pretty amusing one for a Reganite.

BarTopDancer

09-03-2008, 08:45 AM

Do the right thing, Jeff? Right now, your beloved VP nominee is under fire for misuse of office, she has a pregnant daughter who isn't married, but engaged to a guy whose Myspace page says he doesn't want kids. On top of that, the date of Mrs. Palin's wedding and her first son's birth is off by about two months (or was he a preemie as well as the last?), and your Prez nominee was a womanizing adulterer. The idiot Dem said something stupid- your guys have actually done stupid things, stupid things that hurt others and denote a lack of character and morality. You seem to have no problem with that, so why should we give a rats ass about what some dumb guy said? I'm also fairly certain Rove has said far worse.:rolleyes:

I don't know why it annoys me so much, but who the fvck cares what his MySpace page said! Really people. What percentage of males at 18 have "someday" for that option. What percentage of males at 18 said I'm ready to have kids. Maybe he didn't think to change it. How often do you update your MySpace page so it's 100% accurate all the time.

tracilicious

09-03-2008, 08:53 AM

I can't find it now, but Moby covered the DNC for blender.com. It was some good stuff. I wonder if they took it down.

Morrigoon

09-03-2008, 09:51 AM

We're becoming far too solemn as a nation.

lashbear

09-03-2008, 03:35 PM

*Pops in*
Nope, no Alex here...
*Pops out*

innerSpaceman

09-03-2008, 03:50 PM

I think Lashbear said it best ... four times, so ... sigh, I can't believe I'm requesting this ... can we please just roll all the political threads into one giant thread?

I'm so confused. I have no idea if I'm posting in the Obama thread, the McCain thread, the Obama Convention thread, or the McCain Convention thread. Meanwhile, the poor old Random Political Thoughts Part Deux thread starves for attention.

Cadaverous Pallor

09-03-2008, 03:52 PM

CoasterMatt

09-03-2008, 04:18 PM

That's it, it's time for the cyanide capsules; if Myspace is being brought into the discussion of Presidential politics.

wendybeth

09-03-2008, 04:35 PM

My cyanide capsule moment was when the Enquirer became a viable source for news.

Tenigma

09-03-2008, 05:25 PM

I don't know why it annoys me so much, but who the fvck cares what his MySpace page said! Really people. What percentage of males at 18 have "someday" for that option. What percentage of males at 18 said I'm ready to have kids. Maybe he didn't think to change it. How often do you update your MySpace page so it's 100% accurate all the time.

From the NY Post:
On his MySpace page, Johnston boasts, "I'm a f - - -in' redneck" who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes.

"But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some s- - - and just f - - -in' chillin' I guess."

"Ya f - - - with me I'll kick [your] ass," he added.

He also claims to be "in a relationship," but states, "I don't want kids."

Tenigma

09-03-2008, 05:26 PM

My cyanide capsule moment was when the Enquirer became a viable source for news.

Actually they are some of the best paid reporters. They're paid HUGE sums to spy and lie in wait for their subjects. While a lot of the stuff is BS, they've also cracked a lot of stories... including John Edwards' affair.

wendybeth

09-03-2008, 05:33 PM

Oh, so I should take their accusations that Sarah Palin had an affair with her hubby's business partner seriously?:D

BarTopDancer

09-03-2008, 05:36 PM

From the NY Post:

I still stand by my comment. Go look at other 18 y/o boys/mens MySpaces and tell me that there isn't swearing and proclamation that they don't' want kids.

Perhaps he should have made it private before his girlfriends mother was going to run for VP, but he didn't. Perhaps he should have put omg I'm going to be a daddy, I'm so excited! But he didn't. I don't see anything wrong with a seemingly typical MySpace page for an 18 year old boy/man regardless of his impending fatherhood.

Oh noes! This kid has an immature MySpace page! Let's all judge him and his babymama via their MySpace page for choices her mother is making. It's not like any of us have experience with being judged or ridiculed or having the wrong person see something on the internet.

Really people. Who the fvck cares what he has on his fvcking MySpace. Seriously.

Oh wait. :rolleyes:

wendybeth

09-03-2008, 05:40 PM

I don't know why it annoys me so much, but who the fvck cares what his MySpace page said! Really people. What percentage of males at 18 have "someday" for that option. What percentage of males at 18 said I'm ready to have kids. Maybe he didn't think to change it. How often do you update your MySpace page so it's 100% accurate all the time.

Oh, I missed this one. Really, I could give a shyt- I don't even have a Myspace page, so I am unaware of the mechanics of the site and thought it was like LJ where you have to actually type something like that in for it to show. Still, he's gonna be a daddy here real quick, so maybe he needs to clean it up a bit. People get fired from their jobs for less.

JWBear

09-05-2008, 12:07 PM

I just caught two episodes of West Wing on Bravo. It was the two that take place at the Democratic National Convention - where Santos becomes the nominee. Very topical.

I miss that show. It was so cool.

Strangler Lewis

09-05-2008, 12:38 PM

I certainly don't care that an 18 year old said he didn't want kids, and I don't especially care that he said what he said on a My Space page as opposed to in a bar or to a hooker or anywhere.

I half wonder if he said it at all. It almost sounds like it could have been written as part of the campaign to paint the election as a Lifeboat-style choice between well-mannered f*gs and rough and ready (Christian) hellraisers. If McCain and Palin are asked to comment on what he said, I assume they'll praise it and call for the appointment of judges who will hold statutes criminalizing asskicking unconstitutional except when done by black people.