Debates of all ilk

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Starts at 9pm Eastern, 6pm Pacific. It seems a bit early to ask people to get off work and drive to our neck of the county but if anyone is up for it, we'd love to have you. Just some snacks and some sound bite watching. I promise to keep my optimism to a minimum. :) I've read that supposedly, Kerry "won" all 3 of his debates. Still, popcorn crunching political fun.

[3894]

It sounds fun, CP. I'll be there in spirit.

Here's my wishlist for Obama for the next month:

GET ANGRIER! Call them liars, because that’s what they are. Sarah Palin didn’t say “thanks but no thanks” to the Bridge to Nowhere. She just said “Thanks.” You were raised by a single mother on food stamps — where does a guy with eight houses who was legacied into Annapolis get off calling you an elitist? And by the way, if you do nothing else, take that word back. Elite is a good word, it means well above average. I’d ask them what their problem is with excellence. While you’re at it, I want the word “patriot” back. McCain can say that the transcendent issue of our time is the spread of Islamic fanaticism or he can choose a running mate who doesn’t know the Bush doctrine from the Monroe Doctrine, but he can’t do both at the same time and call it patriotic. They have to lie — the truth isn’t their friend right now. Get angry. Mock them mercilessly; they’ve earned it. McCain decried agents of intolerance, then chose a running mate who had to ask if she was allowed to ban books from a public library. It’s not bad enough she thinks the planet Earth was created in six days 6,000 years ago complete with a man, a woman and a talking snake, she wants schools to teach the rest of our kids to deny geology, anthropology, archaeology and common sense too? It’s not bad enough she’s forcing her own daughter into a loveless marriage to a teenage hood, she wants the rest of us to guide our daughters in that direction too? It’s not enough that a woman shouldn’t have the right to choose, it should be the law of the land that she has to carry and deliver her rapist’s baby too? I don’t know whether or not Governor Palin has the tenacity of a pit bull, but I know for sure she’s got the qualifications of one. And you’re worried about seeming angry? You could eat their lunch, make them cry and tell their mamas about it and God himself would call it restrained. There are times when you are simply required to be impolite. There are times when condescension is called for!

The author is Maureen Dowd and you can find the rest of the piece here (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/opinion/21dowd-sorkin.html?_r=2&em=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1222193130-v04MuabAblKyOWuV0LOxOQ).

[Morrigoon]

I totally would except I have an appointment in MV at 5:30, and I doubt I'd be done in time. Would've loved to watch it with you guys, though.

[Andrew]

I'll be virtually watching it with you. Maybe we could get an IRC channel going for live debate about the debate?

[3894]

Maybe we could get an IRC channel going for live debate about the debate?

I'd be up for that, Andrew. It would be fun.

[Stan4dSteph]

I'll be virtually watching it with you. Maybe we could get an IRC channel going for live debate about the debate?Current TV is going to be showing tweets that people submit during the debate. You can find out more at www.current.com/debate You just add #current to a tweet to submit it.

A group chat might be interesting too for those not able to attend CP's part.

[flippyshark]

Current TV is going to be showing tweets that people submit during the debate. You can find out more at www.current.com/debate You just add #current to a tweet to submit it.

A group chat might be interesting too for those not able to attend CP's part.

Let an old Luddite chime in here. I will be sure to watch on a (presumably online) source where no external comments, tweets, twitters or other responses will be visible. I'll seek out all that stuff after its over. It's just me. I'm not a very interactive, 2.0 person. (But I'd come over if I lived nearby.)

[BarTopDancer]

I can *technically* be there by 6, but I don't know if homework completion will be at a stage where I can physically be there at all.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I'm, per usual, gigging that night. Otherwise, I would so be there.

Have fun!

[katiesue]

Wish I could make it but we're Rodeoing all weekend. Ye ha!

[Snowflake]

I'll be watching from up North (not as North as Wendy or Ozron, of course). In fact, I would not miss it.

Thanks for the link to the article 3894, that was great!

[innerSpaceman]

And I could never be there by six, so I'm another 'No, but thanks'


Howzabout you tivo all 3 presidential debates, and we can watch them back-to-back some Saturday???

Heheh

[Andrew]

Howzabout you tivo all 3 presidential debates, and we can watch them back-to-back some Saturday???

That would be so much McCain as to be violence-inducing. I'm going to need serious libations to get through them one at a time already.

[Tom]

I do so wish we could be there, but alas we will be preparing to fly to Michigan to celebrate nuptials (not ours - someone else's).

But whatcha doin' election night?

[Ghoulish Delight]

But whatcha doin' election night?Cowering in a fetal position fearing the worst.

[Andrew]

But whatcha doin' election night?

Either celebrating hard, long and loud or checking to see if I can work out of the Vancouver (BC) office.

[CoasterMatt]

GD's avatar looks like a screengrab from 70s porn.

[Not Afraid]

GD's avatar looks like a screengrab from 70s porn.

That's 3 mentions in 3 different threads. :D

[CoasterMatt]

I'd love to go watch the debate with you guys, but I won't be home from work in time, in all likelihood.

[scaeagles]

Something tells me I wouldn't enjoy watching the debate with most of you....but have fun anyway!

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I do so wish we could be there, but alas we will be preparing to fly to Michigan to celebrate nuptials (not ours - someone else's).

But whatcha doin' election night?

Ditto that on all counts. Do so wish. Whatcha doin' 11/4?

[CoasterMatt]

Aw, c'mon Leo - I'll bring along my copy of Ronald Reagan speaking at the 1976 Convention :)

[JWBear]

I could make it to GD's & CP's place by six, but only if I went straight (so to speak) from work. If I went home to get Bill, not till later. We'll probably watch it from home.

[JWBear]

GD's avatar looks like a screengrab from 70s porn.

It kinda looks like the head on one of those blow-up man-dolls....

[Cadaverous Pallor]

No worries, guys, I figured it might be a stretch :) And yes, my husband looks like a porn star, it's hawt.

I'll be virtually watching it with you. Maybe we could get an IRC channel going for live debate about the debate?An IRC channel? Your internet wrinkles are showing ;)

I'd be up for keeping chat open for commercial breaks (I'm going to keep an eye on the TV during the actual talking). YIM as codexjen and gtalk as jenniesloan77.

[Andrew]

An IRC channel? Your internet wrinkles are showing ;)

Umm... Get offa my iLawn?

I'd be up for keeping chat open for commercial breaks (I'm going to keep an eye on the TV during the actual talking). YIM as codexjen and gtalk as jenniesloan77.

A: smartwatermelon
Y: smart_water_melon
T: smartwatermelon
G: andrew.rich (odd man out, I guess)

[bewitched]

Unfortunately I'll be staying in the 9th best place to live. But a chat sounds cool.



Great article Helen. I love Maureen Dowd.

[Gemini Cricket]

Drinking (for those who drink) rules for tonight's debate: A shot every time McCain says "my friends" and a shot every time Obama says "change". *

*Not my idea. Just passing it along. Apparently, the game's all over Twitter.
:D

[CoasterMatt]

Today in Debate History-

Sep 26 1960

Kennedy and Nixon face off in the first televised presidential debate. Nixon had been recuperating from illness yet refused to wear makeup for the camera, looking haggard and gray. Radio viewers gave positive opinions for Nixon's performance but so many people saw the debate televised that Kennedy gained the lead in the polls, ultimately winning the election.

[3894]

Chocolate - check
Popcorn - check
Water balloons - check

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Water balloons - checkWaterproof TV - uncheck :)

I would make popcorn, but 6pm is too early. We'll probably be eating dinner.

[Alex]

I came home at mid-day. I'm going to play video games. I'm not sure I'm in a mood to cap the day with a political debate so I may wait for the soundbites afterward.

[CoasterMatt]

I thought the water balloons were for throwing at the neighbors when they cheer for (whoever you're against).

[Stan4dSteph]

I came home at mid-day. I'm going to play video games. I'm not sure I'm in a mood to cap the day with a political debate so I may wait for the soundbites afterward.That's kind of where I'm at too. I got some not so great news today that really doesn't put me in a mood to watch real people arguing. I look forward to the LoT responses on here though.

[Morrigoon]

GD&CP: are you still having the thing at your place?

If I get out early enough from my appointment I may truck on up there. Should I bring anything?

[innerSpaceman]

Sigh, I'd love to watch the debate with the Cadaverous Delights. Alas, I'll barely make it home by then ... it would be over by the time I got to Orange County on a Friday evening.


Maybe I'll play the Gemini Cricket Debate Drinking Game and imbibe myself into a stupor.

[Snowflake]

I will be trying to hear the debate in between shouts from my rabid roomate!
Should be a fun evening, I think. ;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

GD&CP: are you still having the thing at your place?
Gah, no. Since no one seemed available, we've done nothing to prepare. We've still got luggage from the trip lying everywhere, we're in no condition for visitors.

[Morrigoon]

Then don't sweat it. Wasn't sure what time I'll be out anyway.

[BDBopper]

In case you wanted my opinion on this debate tonight (http://ohbabythatswhatilike.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-are-we-having-debate-tonight.html).

[BDBopper]

In case you wanted my opinion on this travesty of a Debate tonight (http://ohbabythatswhatilike.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-are-we-having-debate-tonight.html).

[CoasterMatt]

That's all fine and dandy, BDBopper, but neither Obama or McCain sit on any board that's doing anything regarding the bailout package - McCain and all his "I'm a maverick" posturing doesn't do any consensus building either, and the process would be better served by the two of them NOT being around to muck things up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Sorry, but that's an absurd opinion. These two senators taking a few hours on one day to engage in a debate is going to affect the outcome of whatever negotiations are going on by exactly zero. What do you think they'd be doing in Washington, spending 24 hours in a room talking to other senators. The vote hasn't even made it to the senate yet, it's Congress that's got the bulk of the work right now. And they aren't going to be in a bunker, detached from any involvement in what little they have to do with whatever's going on.

They're running for President. It's part of their job now to be in front of the camera campaigning for themselves. It's entirely possible to do both, and that's what they're going to do.

[BDBopper]

I understand your points and they are valid...I'm just frustrated over all of this. Can you blame me?

[JWBear]

Is it me, or is McCain not really answering the questions?

[BarTopDancer]

Is it me, or is McCain not really answering the questions?

That's where Palin learned it from.

[CoasterMatt]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/y/H/2/no-talk-ex-sac0908cd.jpg

[JWBear]

Lies, Mr McCain. Lies, lies, lies.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I need more to drink.

[BDBopper]

Anybody else falling asleep? Dang I wish Huckabee was the nominee instead of McCain. At least he'd liven things up a bit. This is about as exciting as watching paint dry.

(goes over to the TV and sees what else is on)

[Morrigoon]

I think President Obama should make McCain his secretary of Defense. Heheh. Hooboy, would I love to be a fly on the wall for THOSE cabinet meetings!

[Betty]

McCain has sounded a bit -what is it - condescending? Patronizing at times?

[Morrigoon]

"I have a bracelet too" hahah.... I'm still trying to decide if that was a zing! moment or a me-too one.

[Morrigoon]

McCain: "Ach-meh-den-ih-zhad"

Umm...

[JWBear]

OMG! McCain isn't wearing a flag pin! He's not a patriot!

[BarTopDancer]

Wow. Condescending much?

[Morrigoon]

McCain would be a great person to read a bedtime story, but I don't know if I'd call his speaking style "presidential". Not that he doesn't have interesting things to say, but his delivery is.... grandfatherly? He delivers what he's saying as if he were a grandpa teaching his grandson about model trains.

If Obama's elitist... then fine. I want an elite president.

[innerSpaceman]

snore.

[Ghoulish Delight]

McCain has stepped on Lehrer every time Lehrer tries to move on.

[Morrigoon]

I will grant McCain an understanding of foreign policy. I'm pleased to see that Obama's not too shabby either. I repeat my opinion that McCain would be a great member of Obama's cabinet.

[JWBear]

Maybe the new neocon plan is for McCain to put us all too sleep after he's elected, so we won't notice when they sell the country out from under us.

[BarTopDancer]

McCain has stepped on Lehrer every time Lehrer tries to move on.

He can't hear him trying to move on.

[JWBear]

Answer the freaking question, Mcdickhead!

[innerSpaceman]

McCain is a disgusting prevaractor, a dullard, and the most annoying person to listen to.

Ladies and gentleman, our next president of the united states.

[Andrew]

Obama needs to stop saying "John is right". You'll never hear McCain saying "Obama is right", even when he is.

[Not Afraid]

You could past just about any politician's head on these two and it would sound exactly the same.

[Morrigoon]

I love the BBC coverage:

"Rather than go into the spin room and hear campaign operatives spout pre-packaged soundbites about how good their candidate did tonight, we're going to go to our correspondents around the world and see how other countries are perceiving tonight's debate."

[Not Afraid]

I love the BBC coverage:

"Rather than go into the spin room and hear campaign operatives spout pre-packaged soundbites about how good their candidate did tonight, we're going to go to our correspondents around the world and see how other countries are perceiving tonight's debate."

And, this is why BBC News is my second favorite news source.

[Alex]

The value of that depends on who exactly they're talking to. I don't suspect the man on the street interview from Paris is any less idiotic than your average man on the street interview from Chicago.

Unless they're going to political observers in which case they are just providing their unofficial spin in place of the official spin.


My view (I did end up watching): Neither particularly embarrassed themself, neither particularly excelled. Everybody will generally come out liking better whoever liked better before.

[tracilicious]

So surprised that Palin declined to be interviewed afterwards. Can't effing wait for the VP debate.

[BarTopDancer]

Can Tiny Fey play Palin in the VP debates? Please?

[CoasterMatt]

I think Palin should quit, then be replaced by Richard Simmons.

This is yummy lemonade...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Solid debate on both sides. I thought McCain came off overly aggressive, but hey, that's what his constituent wants, so he probably considers that a success. I swear to god I caught a George Bush "heh" in there. Obama was solid and remained pretty unrattled, not letting McCain bully his way to the last word every time. They each had their strong moments, but no knock out blows on either side.

For what it's worth, Obama did a better job of picking up on Lerher's oh so subtle proddings to make it convorsational. All theatrics of course, but Mr. Townhall meeting seemed pretty unwilling for a while to step out from behind the moderator. He eventually caught on, but I give Obama the advantage on that aspect by a long shot.

[Stan4dSteph]

I love the BBC coverage:I liked the rooster crowing in the background of Baghdad.

Alex, they talked to their correspondents in Beijing, Moscow, Afghanistan (Kabul I think) and Baghdad. It was short and sweet, but at least gave more than the usual pundit spin that comes out of the US press.

[The Lovely Mrs. tod]

I don't think it changed any minds, actually I thought McCain came off better than I expected. The test is, how many minds, if any, did it make up?

For the first time in my memory, I'm looking forward to the V.P. debate though...

[sleepyjeff]

So surprised that Palin declined to be interviewed afterwards. Can't effing wait for the VP debate.

Palin has already won the VP debate.

[BarTopDancer]

Palin has already won the VP debate.

Link? I mean ad?

[sleepyjeff]

Link? I mean ad?


The debate has not yet occured so I cannot provide a link.....

I don't know if you are familier with an MTV animated series called Daria. If you are I refer you to the episode titled "Quinn the Brain". That's the best I can do for you for now.

Rest assured, Palin has already won the contest, trust me.

[BarTopDancer]

The debate has not yet occured so I cannot provide a link.....

I don't know if you are familier with an MTV animated series called Daria. If you are I refer you to the episode titled "Quinn the Brain". That's the best I can do for you for now.

Rest assured, Palin has already won the contest, trust me.

I was referring to the ad that the McCain campaign posted this afternoon stating that he won the debate before it even happened.

[sleepyjeff]

I was referring to the ad that the McCain campaign posted this afternoon stating that he won the debate before it even happened.

Oh that....optimistic fellow, that McCain....turns out he was right(in my partisan opinion) :)

I am basically saying that Palin has already won because the media has conditioned the public to expect a blithering idiot....all she has to do is exceed the publics extremely low expectations and Bam, we have a winner.

Palin has already won because the battle for the lowest expectations, with the help of the mainstream media(whether they mean to or not) has already been fought and won beyond her wildest dreams.

In the episode of Daria that I was referring to earlier, Quinn was on the verge of having to repeat the 9th grade and then all of the sudden writes a paper that is barely ok....but because her teacher didn't expect it to be that good he not only gave her an A+ but decided that Quinn should tutor her sister Daria(a straight A student) whose best subject happens to be writing.

[JWBear]

My... Aren't we optimistic...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oh that....optimistic fellow, that McCain....turns out he was right(in my partisan opinion) :)Very partisan. Both spoke effectively to those that agree with them. No one won. McCain had took the most initiative and Obama played the best defense. Push meets shove. Hard to believe McCain camp's claim that Obama started a shouting match in their closed meeting with the Pres when McCain was the one running right through the moderators stop signs to try to get the last word in.

[wendybeth]

The media has not portrayed Palin as a 'blithering idiot'- she has done that to herself. The (two?) interviews she has given were softball pitches that she struck out on, and just the fact that they had to dumb down the VP debate structure to accommodate her does not help that perception. There may be nowhere but up for her, but that is hardly due to media manipulation.

[Gemini Cricket]

What was that whole thing McCain was saying about South Koreans being 3 inches taller than North Koreans? Huh?

McCain had this steamroller tactic of just barreling on even though his time was up and Jim Lehrer was moving on.

I liked how Obama addressed almost every jab McCain got in. It was what I wanted Kerry to do and he didn't.

I think Obama had the slight edge over McCain, but it wasn't a huge victory for either candidate. I don't see anyone actually changing their minds based on this debate. In fact, I don't expect anyone to be swayed by any of the debates.

I liked the whole 'Yeah, I have a bracelet, too' moment.

[€uroMeinke]

I caught about 10 minutes of the debate - enough to hear the candidates avoid the questions with their canned faux-responses. Then I put on the new Bitter:sweet CD - can't wait to see them live. This political season is really making me appreciate music more.

[bewitched]

CBS/Knowledge Networks poll (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/27/opinion/polls/main4482119.shtml)of uncommitted voters immediately after the debate:

39% Obama
24% McCain
37% draw

Nearly half of those uncommitted voters who watched the debate said that their image of Obama changed for the better as a result. Just eight percent say their opinion of Obama got worse, and 46 percent reported no change in their opinions.

McCain saw less improvement in his image. Thirty-two percent have improved their image of McCain as a result of the debate, but 21 percent said their views of him are now worse than before.

[Alex]

What was that whole thing McCain was saying about South Koreans being 3 inches taller than North Koreans? Huh?

Years of famine and childhood malnutrition has produced of generation of North Koreans that are significantly shorter than their counterparts in South Korea and even the older generations in North Korea (and those older generations are of approximately the same average height whether in North or South Korea).

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20040214&slug=korea14

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/jul/30/stuntedchildrenthelegacyof

[scaeagles]

I watched and then I read. I think there is a bit of a Nixon-Kennedy vibe, honestly. Watching I gave the nod to Obama. He just looked the part. Reading I gave it to McCain. But I agree with GD (where's that quote he submitted once about agreeing with me and how aweful it made him feel?) that neither side clearly had an advantage, and neither side gaffed.

This was encouraging to me in one way. I remember going on MousePlanet after the first Bush-Kerrey debate nearly vomiting and incredibly depressed because Bush sucked so freakin' badly. And then Bush still won the election (making all of you feel like vomiting and incredibly depressed).

I will say this. If Obama does what he says he will, I do not regard him as someone I can't ever support should he win. However, I keep getting the Bill Clinton promising a middle class tax cut feeling and I know that Obama is just a politician, same as everyone else, saying what he thinks will get him elected. To be fair, McCain does the same thing, but McCain has shown more legislating with the other side moving across the aisle than Obama has. Freak out about it, but I can name a bunch of examples (most of which I hated, by the way).

Anyway....eh. Don't think this debate changed anyone's mind, which at this point plays to Obama with his lead.

[3894]

Don't think this debate changed anyone's mind

I don't get how anyone can be undecided in this election.

I agreed with my boyfriend Paul Begala's take (surprise!). The overall impression of John McCain is Mr. Yesterday. The overall impression of Obama is Mr. Future.

[Strangler Lewis]

I don't care that McCain stumbled over Achmedinejad. I think he would have come across well to anyone who thought that at age 72 he was a bumbler. I wasn't as bothered as some by his obvious rudeness, but I do agree with the commentator who said that it didn't play well because Obama, beyond principled disagreement, didn't give him any openings where taking that tone made any sense.

I thought McCain did a good job at showcasing his experience with foreign affairs, and I thought Obama did a better job than McCain at cramming his opponent's mistakes down his throat. McCain gets the nod for worst line of the night with his "How about we don't spend any money?" riposte.

I did come away thinking that if a Republican had to steal the last two elections, I would have preferred it be McCain than Bush, but overall I thought Obama won a close one.

[innerSpaceman]

scaeagles, which part of Obama's plans (which, yeah, are just elect-me bluster) freak you out? Is it the drawdown of troops from Iraq to increase the levels in Afghanistan? Is it the closing of corporate tax loopholes and not giving businesses a further tax break, but instead extending that break to individuals making less than $200,00 annually? Is it the committment to invest as heavily as possible in renewal energies, including nuclear power?

Those seem to be the 3 topics he belabored through the debate. He barely mentioned his healthcare plan, and when he did, it was with zero detail. If that's what you object to, I call shenanigans. He didn't mention anything about it during the debate, except the vague goal of all Americans having "access" to "basic" healthcare.


Please don't fall for what McCain might have said about it. It's best discount the way each candidate mischaracterizes the positions of the other. Dirty pool.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

The quick hit (http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=debate+poll&c=) on polls say Obama "won".

I'd agree with what others have said here, that neither candidate screwed up badly, neither did spectacularly well. McCain got in some great foreign policy jabs, though Obama's handling of the format gave him an edge in my book. He addressed Jim, John, and the camera, and did it fluidly. Visually, Obama killed. McCain's eyes were watery and he blinked a lot. I can't stand that awful smile McCain has when he disagrees with Obama - cringeworthy.

[innerSpaceman]

oh ... and Goonie's observation that McCain sounds like a grandfather explaining toy trains is right on. He's so patronizing in his tone. Ycch.


I thought the best line of the night was Obama's ... in response to McCain's spending freeze plan ... that the budget is best addressed with a scalpel, not a hatchet.

It was not the only time I thought he made McCain look a little too stupid to be president.


Sigh, not that that's not a highly electible quality. Americans seem to like stupid in their presidents.

[innerSpaceman]

I can't stand that awful smile McCain has when he disagrees with Obama - cringeworthy.

I think it was NBC's Brian Williams who observed that McCain really doesn't like Obama and lets it show in his body language, facial expressions and tone of voice. He lets himself get perturbed by his disdain for his opponent, and that makes him look like a jerk. (That last part is mine ;) )

[Gemini Cricket]

Amazing about the North Korean malnutrition problem. Wow.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Amazing about the North Korean malnutrition problem. Wow.
One of Kim Jong Il's loonier moves was when someone from Britain gave North Korea a dozen rabbits, very large rabbits, so North Korea could attempt to start a population to use as food for the country. Instead, Il ate them at a banquet for his birthday.

[CoasterMatt]

:)

[mousepod]

There weren't any strikeouts, nor were there home runs, but I really liked the debate. I think that both of the candidates did a good job of expressing their opinions and represented their differences in a clear way. I'm still voting for Obama, but like scaeagles, if the other guy wins, I'm not going to give up on America. Now if they'd both dump their VP choices...

[tracilicious]

Just curious...why would you want Obama to dump Biden?

So this opinion has nothing to do with either of their politics, but if one were deciding purely on what body language and the ability to look sincere Obama won by a landslide. McCain kept chuckling at him. At one point Obama looked at someone off camera and gave them a lovely smile. After the debate when they both greeted their wives it seemed that there is actual intimacy between Obama and Michelle while McCain and wife's greeting seemed very forced.

Say what you will about all politicians being the same, but I think Obama has McCain trumped on character and heart.

Sleepyjeff: If by "media conditioning" you mean televising what Palin actually says, you are so right. Maybe they should start over-dubbing with someone who actually knows what she's talking about?

I do think the VP debate will be tricky stuff. Biden's going to have to try not to make it look like a complete bloodbath. Palin's going to be pure slime in avoidance of answering actual questions.

[3894]

oh ... and Goonie's observation that McCain sounds like a grandfather explaining toy trains is right on. He's so patronizing in his tone. Ycch.



It's not just that McCain sounded patronizing to someone younger, it's that Obama is also Black. My husband remembers hitchhiking through Mississippi years ago. He got a ride with a delivery man who had his Black "boy" with him who made all the deliveries while he chatted with customers. My husband said McCain's tone was just like that man's to his "boy".

[scaeagles]

scaeagles, which part of Obama's plans (which, yeah, are just elect-me bluster) freak you out? Is it the drawdown of troops from Iraq to increase the levels in Afghanistan? Is it the closing of corporate tax loopholes and not giving businesses a further tax break, but instead extending that break to individuals making less than $200,00 annually? Is it the committment to invest as heavily as possible in renewal energies, including nuclear power?

Like I said, if Obama does what he says, I'm NOT overly freaked out and think I even said that (though not in that way). I simply don't trust him (nor do I in particular trust McCain) to do it. I think I said I keep getting a Bill Clinton middle class tax cut feeling from Obama - sounds great, appeals to people, but never happened, nor do I believe Clinton was ever serious about one.

Drawdown of troops to increase in Afghanistan? This I have no problem with as the Iraqis are doing an increasingly better job taking charge of their own security. No problem whatsoever as long as it is done gradually. Makes sense.

Corporate taxes. There is no such thing as a corporate tax. Corporate taxes are passed along to the consumer as a price increase. Unless you start capping profit margins, there is no net positive effect to the consumer. If corporate taxes cause price increases to an extent that it costs the middle class more than their tax breaks - a very real possibility - then what happens is the economy worsens, it gets herder for the middle class, and the politicians get to portray the corporations as the bad guys and pointing to their middle class tax cuts. Obama knows this and I feel this is where he is being very disingenuous and simply pandering. This does bother me.

Renewable energies are wonderful and McCain would invest no less. I just think that Obama is being disingenuous here as well. For all the cries of drilling doesn't dive us a drop of oil for 10 years, how long will it take to get nuclear power plants online with all the environmental restrictions? There are reasons we haven't built any. I'm all for them. Best form of energy there is. How long will it take to develop these alternative forms? Reliance on those is a long, long time away. Even then, the primary source of of energy needs, being transportation, isn't going to be using clean electricity for a long time. I'd feel better if Obama acknowledged that. Obama once said gas prices only bothered him because of how quickly they went up. That bothers me. His policies don't, I just think they are very incomplete and that McCain has a better handle on the immediate needs as well as the long term sneeds.

[scaeagles]

It's not just that McCain sounded patronizing to someone younger, it's that Obama is also Black. My husband remembers hitchhiking through Mississippi years ago. He got a ride with a delivery man who had his Black "boy" with him who made all the deliveries while he chatted with customers. My husband said McCain's tone was just like that man's to his "boy".


McCain talks that way to pretty much everyone. Certainly not racial. I think it boils down to arrogance.

[wendybeth]

I'd have to agree that it's just general arrogance, which hardly makes it more palatable. He is that way with everyone who isn't fawning over him- note the many, many examples of interview meltdowns and personal interactions with people over his career. He does need to practice smiling in the mirror; every time I see him flash that taut sort of grimace he thinks passes as a smile I get concerned about his fiber intake.

[scaeagles]

Anyone who voted for John Kerrey or thinks Joe Biden is a great pick and is offended by the arrogance of McCain and how he talks down to people...well, it's probably an issue of prefering the candidate and their policies more than an issue of arrogance. I find Obama to be incredibly arrogant as well, and have voiced that, but McCains bothers me less because he's my candidate of choice.

[BarTopDancer]

It's not just that McCain sounded patronizing to someone younger, it's that Obama is also Black. My husband remembers hitchhiking through Mississippi years ago. He got a ride with a delivery man who had his Black "boy" with him who made all the deliveries while he chatted with customers. My husband said McCain's tone was just like that man's to his "boy".

That just makes me sad.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Corporate taxes. There is no such thing as a corporate tax. Corporate taxes are passed along to the consumer as a price increase
Leo, we've been over this. You can deny it all you want, but it's one of the most basic principles of supply and demand economics and is mathematical truth. Taxes levied against the supply side are NOT proportionately compensated for in consumer prices. The more elastic the price of the good, the smaller impact a supply-side tax has on a consumer. It is a function of the slope of the demand curve.

[mousepod]

Just curious...why would you want Obama to dump Biden?

Well, I'm not against Biden per se. I think his experience, especially his foreign policy experience, will make him a fine Vice President. However, if it were up to me to pick Obama's running mate, I would have chosen Richardson, Kucinich, or even Clinton - but that's just because that's who I liked in the primaries. Others have picked up on Biden's apparent arrogance, and his gaffes over the last couple of weeks add fodder to the nasty ad campaigns that are sure to continue over the next month. But if it's Biden, I'm OK with him. Just as I hope that the people choosing to vote Republican are OK with Palin.

[scaeagles]

I completely disagree, GD. For every source you can cite, I can cite just as many lauded economics professors and experts who say the opposite of what you have said. You're right - we've been over this, and we've each cited our sources, and you have one school of thought, and I have another school of thought.

If you'd like I can go into other reasons why high corporate taxes are a bad idea, but I doubt it would make a difference.

[Scrooge McSam]

Have you ever owned a business, Leo?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Whatever. The fact remains that Obama made the most salient point in that discussion. On paper we have one of the highest corporate tax rates. But because we let them write anything and everything off, they don't actually pay anywhere close to that rate and the effective rate is actually one of the lowest. That's effed up no matter how you look at it.

[Morrigoon]

Leo, we've been over this. You can deny it all you want, but it's one of the most basic principles of supply and demand economics and is mathematical truth. Taxes levied against the supply side are NOT proportionately compensated for in consumer prices. The more elastic the price of the good, the smaller impact a supply-side tax has on a consumer. It is a function of the slope of the demand curve.
This is true, the tax is shared between seller and consumer.

[Alex]

He does need to practice smiling in the mirror; every time I see him flash that taut sort of grimace he thinks passes as a smile I get concerned about his fiber intake.

To be fair (and I don't like his grimace either), the left side of his face is covered in scar tissue from melanoma surgeries; among other things after the 2000 campaign he had lymph nodes and some muscle tissue removed from that side. The scars aren't obvious because he's usually wearing make-up when you see him, but he does have a loss of mobility on one side of his face.

Admittedly, this causes him to have a smile that looks off. Just like his POW injuries make it difficult for him to raise his arms (and his jaw was broken then as well which may also contribute to the smile) which gives him a very odd walk and stance.

So yeah, I have a visceral negative reaction but I try to remind myself that it is kind of like laughing at a hairlip and that it isn't really important anyway since the way you smile isn't really an indicator of what kind of person you are.

Here's a picture (http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/731655.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB68EEF0F76BCBD3F5 284831B75F48EF45) of him shortly after one of his facial surgeries.

[scaeagles]

Have you ever owned a business, Leo?

Actually, yes. But not in the way you might think. Fully distributed partnership. 10 years. A fully distributed partnership pays no corporate taxes.

[Scrooge McSam]

OK, just me wondering and trying to understand.

[blueerica]

I haven't read all of this thread (surprisingly, I've wanted to as of late, I've just been out of time and not willing to go through Sooo...-like threads) but after about 30-ish minutes of the debate, I had to change channels due to the frustrating way that both candidates never answered the questions at hand, but went toward whatever the hell they wanted to talk about, so long as it was a tangent point.

If it got better after that, I don't know.

Oh, and I'm sure it was mentioned in another thread, but I couldn't help but be annoyed with McCain's choice to ditch Letterman for Couric the other night. Blah..

[innerSpaceman]

The first 30 minutes were devoted to the financial crisis, and both candidates were tone deaf to the current American panic. But McCain so blatently refused to answer Lehrer's questions, that he asked it again and again ... and the final time even saying he was changing the wording so that he could hope to get a straight answer from either of them.


Once the debate turned to the scheduled topic of foreign policy, they each did better.

I was amazed and aghast today to overhear so many rightwing newscasts that, I guess predictably, found Obama's performance and positions abyssmal and McCain fantastic on both fronts. On.What.Planet?

[CoasterMatt]

Too bad it wasn't produced by Nickelodeon - everytime they said "I don't know" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO57S8wyAQU) - they would have been slimed :)

[scaeagles]

I found no surprise in the left praising Obama and the right praising McCain in whatever format. I'm kind of surprised you were surprised. Wouldn't have been any other way.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Actually, I haven't seen any source that's said anything other than they both did well.

[scaeagles]

To be honest, I haven't read any analysis of the debate. I just figured it would be that way no matter what.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Mirroring the public reaction, Obama seems to have gone up a tick in the polls.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oh, and for the record I don't really support a middle class tax cut as proposed by Obama.

[scaeagles]

I don't think Obama supports a middle class tax cut as proposed by Obama.

[innerSpaceman]

I support repealing the Alternative Minimum Tax before the year, perhaps it''s '09 or maybe 2010, it starts affecting incomes under $70K annual. That's gonna mean a GIANT tax increase for, well, for the likes of me ... and i consider myself, in West Los Angeles, decidely middle class.

So unless that's repealed, which you could view as a cut in current tax law, taxes are going to go significantly up for the middle class. And yet, if that were abolished, revenues would not be lower than they are now.



I don't think that's necessarily the "middle class tax cut" Obama is proposing, but it's one I wholeheartedly support.

[scaeagles]

I thought you were against income taxes all together, ISM.

[Gemini Cricket]

I do not like you, John McCain. My feeling has nothing to do with issues. It has to do with common courtesy. During the debate, you refused to look Barack Obama in the eye. Indeed, you refused to look at him at all. Even when the two of you shook hands at the start, you used your eyes only to locate his hand, and then gazed past him as you shook it. Obama is my guy. If you are rude to him, you are rude to me. If you came to dinner at my house and refused to look at or speak with one of my guests, that would be bad manners and I would be offended. Same thing if I went to your house. During the debate, you were America's guest.
Source (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080928/COMMENTARY/809289997)
Oofta!
Ebert gives McCain a thumbs down.
Weird commentary from a film critic...

[Tom]

Actually, a film critic reviewing a debate seems like a logical next step given much of the current political coverage.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

The debate in one minute (http://www.236.com/video/2008/watch_first_presidential_debat_1_9186.php) ;)

[innerSpaceman]

Um, question. Are we going to have a new thread for each debate ... or should we change the name of this one to have a single debate thread?


I think the political threads are proliferating pretty wildly around here .... but maybe that's just me.

[innerSpaceman]

The debate in one minute (http://www.236.com/video/2008/watch_first_presidential_debat_1_9186.php) ;)

that was brilliant, btw. :)



Reagan, Reagan, Reagan, Nixon, Reagon, Henry Kissinger, President Eisenhower, Alexander the Great. I've been around a while. HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Snowflake]

The debate in one minute (http://www.236.com/video/2008/watch_first_presidential_debat_1_9186.php) ;)

:( flash player is not up to snuff. Later, when I get home, then.

[bewitched]

that was brilliant, btw. :)



Reagan, Reagan, Reagan, Nixon, Reagon, Henry Kissinger, President Eisenhower, Alexander the Great. I've been around a while. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Totally.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Um, question. Are we going to have a new thread for each debate ... or should we change the name of this one to have a single debate thread?


I think the political threads are proliferating pretty wildly around here .... but maybe that's just me.I'd be fine with a mod changing the title. We can put the VP debate stuff here too.

[innerSpaceman]

I love that the VP debate is a thousand times more anticipated and poplular than the 3 presidential debates put together.

[BarTopDancer]

I am missing the VP debate. I hope to keep up via twitter, and to get the recap on SNL on Saturday.

[Ghoulish Delight]

OMG, last night's Daily Show bit on the debate was HYSTERICAL!

Agree!
Disagree!
They're fair and balanced!

Now THAT'S a focus group!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

OMG, last night's Daily Show bit on the debate was HYSTERICAL!

Agree!
Disagree!
They're fair and balanced!

Now THAT'S a focus group!Link (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=186076&title=Seniors-Citizens-Watch-the-Debate)

[Strangler Lewis]

Link (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=186076&title=Seniors-Citizens-Watch-the-Debate)

Mom, you're 82, quit with the jet black hair color.

[innerSpaceman]

I think that lady mustv'e got the sh!t beat out of her in the parking lot after that session. (Or maybe she was gummed to death.)

[Ghoulish Delight]

"He was trying to control the debate! He was trying to control the debate!"

[Gemini Cricket]

Regarding tomorrow's debate, I think Palin's going to do okay.
Everyone's expectations are really, really low right now. I think she'll hold her own and be perceived as the victor. (If there really is such a thing as someone winning these debates. Like it was said before, I don't think they'll have much impact on the election's outcome.)

[Not Afraid]

Fox News: it's fair and balanced.

[Alex]

A lot of people I know are planning VP debate parties, somewhat on the assumption that she'll provide comedy like her Couric interview.

I don't see this happening. Now, I don't necessarily see her doing well, but she'll be sufficiently prepped that I don't expect meandering meaningless answers like she gave Couric.

Instead she'll have prepared statements and will use them regardless of question. So she may still look bad for not answering questions but it won't be the same kind of bad as the Couric interview.

[Gemini Cricket]

The Daily Show clip was hysterical.
"Tuchus" - It's a great word to say out loud.
:D

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, but "tribe" was not.



With the proviso, not widely understood, that jews consider themselves from tribes ... and so it's not really as derrogatory as it likely came across.

[3894]

Now, I don't necessarily see her doing well, but she'll be sufficiently prepped that I don't expect meandering meaningless answers like she gave Couric.

Palin is about to take the exam without having taken the class. Whoever first said it has the situation about right.

Since she knows jack compared to Biden or really any legitimate candidate for national office, I predict she throws the folksy into overdrive - droppin' g's, usin' oddball expressions, makin' analogies to ice hockey and huntin'. She's going for the I'd-like-to-have-a-beer-with-her thing that worked for George W.

[Gemini Cricket]

I was interesting that the person who was in the most denial was also denying her head its true hair color.

[3894]

Watch for a lot of blame about Palin's debate performance to fly towards the moderator.

[Moonliner]

Watch for a lot of blame about Palin's debate performance to fly towards the moderator.

You mean the one who is writing a book entitled "The Obama Age (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76645)"?

[Strangler Lewis]

Watch for a lot of blame about Palin's debate performance to fly towards the moderator.

Or credit.

I predict 1) She won't be allowed to stick to canned statements; and 2) all of the questions will be geared towards foreign affairs and the economy, and none of the questions will be geared towards her supposed strengths, i.e., her anti-choice views, her hockeymomishkeit and her pro-family agenda of belligerence, drug addiction and promiscuity.

[Snowflake]

Palin is about to take the exam without having taken the class. Whoever first said it has the situation about right.

Since she knows jack compared to Biden or really any legitimate candidate for national office, I predict she throws the folksy into overdrive - droppin' g's, usin' oddball expressions, makin' analogies to ice hockey and huntin'. She's going for the I'd-like-to-have-a-beer-with-her thing that worked for George W.

Timely and courtesy of Random Quote of the Day, the MO for Palin.*

The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.


—Adolf Hilter, Chapter 6, Mein Kampf





*I do not mean to offend, but the quotation seems to be relevant to my thinking on how the GOP works sometimes at election time.

[Strangler Lewis]

It also helps to have an audience at least somewhat predisposed to the viewpoints being hammered.

[Alex]

I just want one question to be asked of both VP candidates:

In your personal view, and just giving a simple number, approximately how old is this planet?

[Gemini Cricket]

Iffil seems to be getting some guff about her pro-Obama book.

[Andrew]

In your personal view, and just giving a simple number, approximately how old is this planet?
Or to put it another way:

"The Flintstones: Fact or Fiction?"

[Alex]

No, I don't want it to be presented as mocking. Just ask straightforward.

Hell, for Palin, answering 6000 years would solidify a LOT of votes, so it might not actually be that bad of an answer (politically). I just want to see it put out there bluntly.

[scaeagles]

Iffil seems to be getting some guff about her pro-Obama book.

I think it is safe to suggest that the McCain may not have agreed to her moderating should they have known about it before hand.

[Gemini Cricket]

Or to put it another way:

"The Flintstones: Fact or Fiction?"
Her answer would be:
"Well, Gwen, the Flintstones were, in fact, a real TV show on TV."

[Moonliner]

Her answer would be:
"Well, Gwen, the Flintstones were, in fact, a real TV show on TV." Which I could see from my living room.

[innerSpaceman]

I think it is safe to suggest that the McCain may not have agreed to her moderating should they have known about it before hand.
Beforehand? Was the book published this week?

[Moonliner]

Beforehand? Was the book published this week?

The book is to be published on inauguration day but I don't see how that is a factor. Having a moderator who:

A) Is writing a book about one of the candidates

and

B) Stands to make more from her book sale if Obama is elected

Is a clear conflict of interest. The fact that is was not disclosed until this late is just skeezy.

[Strangler Lewis]

I agree that there is the appearance of a conflict, although I'm not sure that she stands to make more if Obama is elected. Believing that she makes more if her last chapter is about how Obama lost because of racism, she could draw Palin into repeated uses of the N word followed by apologetics that, just as much as real Americans love their irresponsible sex, drug use to alleviate small-town boredom and ass kicking, real Americans are rubbed the wrong way by black people.

And turning to you, Senator Biden, I'm sure you agree with the governor since you expressed pleasant surprise at Barack Obama's cleanliness.

[Morrigoon]

I would have to agree on the appearance of conflict. On the other hand, since many moderators can't help but favor one candidate over the other (and given many moderators are journalists...), perhaps the threat of conflict being held over her head will force her to deliberately be more neutral or even favor the opposing side, lest she get called on it.

[Moonliner]

given many moderators are journalists

That's a good point. It's probably no big deal to the Republicans since they knew the deck would be stacked against them from the start anyway.

[Strangler Lewis]

She should step aside. I don't want my election fun spoiled by suggestions that Obama won because a black woman journalist sold out her sex in favor of her race.

I just don't think that's good for the Jews.

[Gn2Dlnd]

^ Well done.

[innerSpaceman]

She didn't mention the book to the debate commission, but it was mentioned in Time Magazine in August, and in an interview with the Washington Post (I believe) in September. It's been available on presale with Amazon. Her publisher chose the release date. The Obama chapter hasn't even been written yet, and he is but a small part of the book about black politics since the Civil War era.


Let the Cons pout and cry. It's not gonna change anything now, even if she did have a conflict of interest or was somehow hiding the book from the candidates.

[3894]

Palin Bingo to play during Thursday's debate. Safe for work. (http://palinbingo.com/)

[JWBear]

I printed out our Palin Bingo cards. I'm stopping at L&L on the way home tomorrow to pick up some katsu for dinner. We're ready!

[Morrigoon]

Amusing tidbit, here's an article summarizing some of the jokes made about Palin preparing for the debate:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26991328/

[Strangler Lewis]

Leaked footage of Sarah Palin's closing statement for tonight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofF9snUohzM)

[Ghoulish Delight]

A behind-the-scenes look at Biden's debate prep:

http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/01/debate_training_biden_learns_w_1_9211.php

[Moonliner]

She didn't mention the book to the debate commission, but it was mentioned in Time Magazine in August, and in an interview with the Washington Post (I believe) in September. It's been available on presale with Amazon. Her publisher chose the release date. The Obama chapter hasn't even been written yet, and he is but a small part of the book about black politics since the Civil War era.


Let the Cons pout and cry. It's not gonna change anything now, even if she did have a conflict of interest or was somehow hiding the book from the candidates.

I have to agree. The book thing is not that big of a deal. Sure it might be of some advantage to Obama but it's not like the Republicans won't have a trick or two up their sleeve (http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/11/debate1salon.JPG) as well.

[Snowflake]

Leaked footage of Sarah Palin's closing statement for tonight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofF9snUohzM)

Thanks to you, the office keyboard is now totally ruined. :D

[sleepyjeff]

.... perhaps the threat of conflict being held over her head will force her to deliberately be more neutral or even favor the opposing side, lest she get called on it.



I hope so but there is a way around this:

Gwen knows what she's going to ask each candidate.....suppose that information "accidently" found it's way into camp Obama?

She could then ask really, really tough questions of Biden and rather softball questions of Palin and no one will be able to accuse her of being unfair to Sarah while at the same time Biden will look like a mental giant for answering all of these tough questions "off the top of his head"


So, while others will be watching to see if Palin is treated unfairly by Gwen I will be watching to see if Biden gets the toughest horse while Palin isn't allowed to score because her bronco won't buck.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Dog-gone it!

[innerSpaceman]

I think the only question remaining is whether this will go down as more boring or less than the first presidential debate.


Snore, snore, zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I like how she answered the question about her flaws, by completing ignoring it or misunderstanding the question.

And then he pulled out the dead wife and child card...and got choked up. Day-um. That was less boring.

Her reaction? I am beginning to think she is a robot. I may have to revise my I [screw] Robots teacher to I [screw] Robots (except for the alin-bot).

[Andrew]

I scored two BINGO, one the hard way.

[scaeagles]

My quick thoughts -

First, Ifill was no factor and concerns about her book and potential bias were clearly unfounded.

Secondly, Palin came across very well, not the stupid Couric interviewee that's been deservedly portrayed. While she didn't answer a couple of questions, Biden was guilty of that as well. There was one question she sounded like an absolute idiot on, but otherwise did an exceptional job.

Biden was clearly the more experienced debater and I would say he technically won the debate, but Palin certainly was effective at changing the image that's out there, and in that way she won. I predict a small bounce for McCain because of that.

Biden was about the most likable I'd ever seen him. Not in the least condescending nor arrogant.

[bewitched]

Generally, I think Palin did a good job speaking. (I was kinda hoping for a bigger "entertainment" factor.) It would've been nice if she would've answered more the actual questions instead of giving snippits of a stump speech. Still...much better than most people expected, which was what she needed to do.

(BBC is saying, "She didn't do enough and Biden didn't make any mistakes" therefore, it changes nothing.)



As an aside, every time she winked at the camera and said things like, "Say it ain't so Joe," I would think of Tina Fey with her fingers in the air going, "Pew, pew, pew..."

and,

"John McCain has already tapped me..." is an SNL skit just waiting to be written.

[CoasterMatt]

You need to see the Bill & Ted's Halloween Adventure show at Universal Studios Hollywood (Halloween Horror Nights).

[JWBear]

I agree, she did much better. But the cutesy folkisms have got to go!

[Alex]

You could tell they not only did a lot of coaching but had her memorize very specific speeches. The way she was rushing her lines, particularly at the beginning made that obvious. But she didn't fall on her face, she just didn't do anything that evidence native knowledge of the subjects. Even on her supposed strong topic of energy (which was her fall back whenever given a question she didn't want to answer) she never really said anything specific.

The format was pretty much to her advantage as it made direct confrontation almost impossible and no follow up questions.

I couldn't tell whether she was saying the constitution gave her expanded powers (wrong) or if she thought she should get expanded powers (bad). That was really the only interest position taken by either her or Biden.

Of course, when you are defending your interpretation of the recent comments by "commanders" in Afghanistan, it would probably be best that when you repeat someone names in a familiar way that you get the name right.

[Gemini Cricket]

Palin did not suck. But she wasn't good, either. A CNN political commentator said something afterward that hit home for me. She talked about how in a 9/11 situation that she could not picture Palin making the decision to shoot down aircraft that flew in a restricted area while the President circled in Air Force One. I can't picture that either.

Biden was great. I found myself being impressed with him. There's a reason he's been in the Senate since he was 30. He sounded presidential to me, she did not.

Palin's cutesy sh!t is wearing thin on me. I'm also glad that Biden called her and McCain on all the 'Maverick' talk.

I even found myself teary-eyed when he talked about his son in the military. I loved that he pointed out that she didn't corner the market on family life.

I think tonight Palin erased her Couric interview image. But it made invisible Biden look downright awesome, imho.

[flippyshark]

Palin got one important phrase backwards. She talked about a "toxic mess on Main Street that's affecting Wall Street." I'm pretty sure she meant the other way around. Minor, but I haven't heard anyone mention it yet.

A couple of her blatant dodges were grating, essentially saying 'I'm not gonna answer that, I'm gonna talk about what I was told to talk about.' But, yeah, better than I expected.

Noo-kyoo-lar! Really, Governor Palin, is it that hard to say "nuclear?" Say the word NEW, then say the word CLEAR (kinda draw it out a little), put them together and you're pretty much there. Sheesh.

[Gemini Cricket]

I also thought the "I've only been at this for 5 1/2 weeks" line was not smart.

[innerSpaceman]

A couple of her blatant dodges were grating, essentially saying 'I'm not gonna answer that, I'm gonna talk about what I was told to talk about.'
This is where I was really disappointed with Gwen Ifill. The other candidates did it with Lehrer, too. But Lehrer let the world know they were pathetically ducking questions. Gwen gave them a complete pass, and both of them ducked questions often and inartfully. Palin's duckings were particularly awkward.

But she only gave one gibberish answer. I suppose after the week she's had, it's considered a victory that she wasn't speaking in tongues through the whole thing.

[Gemini Cricket]

Gwen seemed stricter last time. I remember Cheney saying something like 'I wish I had longer to answer this question' and she said, 'Well, you don't.'
Love her.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Yes, I'll agree with Alex and GC. She didn't make as much of a fool of herself as she has in the very recent past. But to me, she only demonstrated that she can memorize passages and come up with twee phrases and redirects to substitute in when she doesn't know the answer of the question she's being asked. She was frequently timid and left Biden with the last word.

And, boy, he did an excellent job of saying it. I was very moved by his talk about family, I was very pleased with his firm stances - he was polite (didn't even correct her when she mispronounced the general's name) but he did not let up on the weaknesses in their arguments. It's a debate, and it often seemed one-sided because she refused to step outside of her rote answers to actually discuss.

And, yes. If you've only been doing this for 5 weeks, you're in no position to take this position.

[CoasterMatt]

Maybe they should have just done a dance battle?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Palin definitely fared better in the more familiar surroundings of a prepped traditional debate, something I'm sure she's been doing since JSA in high school. Still clearly has not processed these issues enough to be speaking off script, but she did fine with the script she was taught.

I thought Biden did a stellar job of driving home two main themes. 1) Go ahead and bring up individual votes all you want, I can show you how the REAL thrust of that vote was the bill it was attached to, not the issue you want it to be about and 2) No matter what decisions we eventually were cornered into going forward on (see point 1), we were arguing against it and only voted for it because SOMETHING had to be done even if we didn't agree that it was the best choice, and in those cases the result was exactly what we predicted would happen.

Places where I think he failed: 1) Regarding the surge, I think the Obama camp's tack should be, "We were against the surge not because we think it was doomed to failure, but because we would rather have seen a strategy that put the responsibility on Iraqis to handle their own ****." 2) "I challenge you to find a place where my message differs from Obama, unlike you who don't represent the same things your candidate is supposedly running for," then in his very next answer, "I am not afraid to speak my mind and tell Obama when I disagree with him."

But my favorite quote from him was, "I do not question their motives, I question their judgment." It's the attitude that drew me to Obama to begin with. The radical concept that it's possible to disagree with someone without vilifying them.

[Ruthie]

As an aside, every time she winked at the camera and said things like, "Say it ain't so Joe," I would think of Tina Fey with her fingers in the air going, "Pew, pew, pew..."
.

LMHO! I wondered if that winking was bugging you as much as it was me!


Biden was great. I found myself being impressed with him. There's a reason he's been in the Senate since he was 30. He sounded presidential to me, she did not.

Palin's cutesy sh!t is wearing thin on me. I'm also glad that Biden called her and McCain on all the 'Maverick' talk.

I even found myself teary-eyed when he talked about his son in the military. I loved that he pointed out that she didn't corner the market on family life.

I think tonight Palin erased her Couric interview image. But it made invisible Biden look downright awesome, imho.


I agree on all your points!

The term "cutesy sh!t" is right on. UGH

I am more impressed with Biden then before. He gives me hope and confidence. I like and respect what I have seen of him.

[Alex]

Ifill was hampered by the debate format which didn't really allow for follow up questions.

[Tenigma]

Maybe they should have just done a dance battle?


You mean LIKE THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izLmuHMjIWM)?!?!?

[innerSpaceman]

Ifill was hampered by the debate format which didn't really allow for follow up questions.
I wonder if she was also hampered by a broken ankle that left her feeling somehow impotent.

[Tenigma]

Gwen seemed stricter last time. I remember Cheney saying something like 'I wish I had longer to answer this question' and she said, 'Well, you don't.'

Maybe she was being extra careful what with the right dogging her about her upcoming book.

By the way the New York Times has a fact check on all the things they said in the debate (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/check-point-the-vice-presidential-debate/). Overall I think Biden had a higher score there.

She did OK. She didn't faint or fail, much to the GREAT relief of the right. Biden held firm and focused on McCain. Both sides did fine, neither blundered. To me this was NOT a gamechanger, which means we're still where we were before the debate.

[Alex]

I certainly have complaints about the initial questions she asked (to often she was including the means of sidestepping in her question, or offering possible answers), but I don't blame her about the lack of follow up.

One can complain about whether the candidates weaving around the rules is acceptable, but she doesn't get to just make up rules and follow ups weren't allowed for.

[Not Afraid]

I didn't watch the debate but I did read (on another board) that Palin was wearing red stilettos and was making notes on a pad of paper throughout. Someone surmised what she must be writing:


To Do:
Look up Hezbollah on Wikipedia
Buy Lipstick

It made me laugh.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I thought the equal rights for gays question was phrased in favor of Biden. It allowed Biden a "yes, I support their rights," answer instead of having to lead with, "No, I don't support marriage but..." Either way it was clear that Palin stopped short of saying she supported the same rights as Biden did, but posing the question without specifically mentioning marriage played to his favor.

The winking made me cringe, as did "nucular".

She said "O'Biden" once.

I do expect the McCain ticket to get a boost in the polls from this. She more than met the rock-bottom bar of lowered expectations.

The one question that I felt she made the biggest dodge on was on whether Bush's Mid East policy has been a failure. Didn't address it at all.

And in general, though I'm admittedly biased, I don't think Palin successfully sold the, "You're looking to the past while we're looking to the future," line. Biden did an excellent job of selling the view that your choice to vote shouldn't be about who talk tough once the sh*t has hit the fan, it's about the people who have shown that they forsaw the sh*t hitting the fan in the first place and would have tried to prevent it.

How accurate that framing is may be up for debate, but Biden made the case well in this forum.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I do expect the McCain ticket to get a boost in the polls from this. She more than met the rock-bottom bar of lowered expectations.

Case in point, the current lead headline at evil liberal tool msnbc.com is For Palin, mission accomplished
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27001589/)

[Alex]

On the misspoken words front (which I don't consider very relevant to anything), Biden also referred to Bosniacs instead of Bosnians.

As far as "nukular" I wrote this on my LJ earlier:


Sorry people. The lamest criticism anybody ever makes about a politician is bitching if they say nukular instead of nuclear.

This battle has been lost, language is the way it is used. As Mirriam Webster says:

"Though disapproved of by many, pronunciations ending in \\-kyə-lər\\ have been found in widespread use among educated speakers including scientists, lawyers, professors, congressmen, United States cabinet members, and at least two United States presidents and one vice president. While most common in the United States, these pronunciations have also been heard from British and Canadian speakers."

Bitching about it just looks equally stupid (in my opinion, of course). And I say this as someone who says nuclear right properly. Saying nukular is not a sign of ignorance or stupidity, it is simply the way the word is said in broad swaths of America (and beyond). It is time to get over it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I know it doesn't matter. But it's my gut reaction, much the same as my gut reaction to McCain's smile, but I have a far easier time looking past that gut reaction with McCain because it's entirely physiological.

[wendybeth]

I had to laugh when she said 'leave' instead of 'lead' when referring to McCain- she quickly corrected it, but one can't help if it was Freudian in nature.

She was much better in a dumbed down debate format, but she didn't answer many of the questions and instead just seized on the opportunity to cheer lead for her team, which I suppose was her prerogative but damned annoying to me as a viewer. I kept thinking "just answer the damned question already!" Very evasive, and very vague.

[Morrigoon]

Any suggestions on where I can go for unedited debate footage?

[Morrigoon]

Nevermind, found it (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/02/sot.vp.debate.ptone.cnn)

[Strangler Lewis]

Maybe Pat Buchanan isn't gay after all, since he loved her out of all proportion to her performance. Or maybe he's just overcompensating.

As has been said, she came across like the host of Morning Latte with the teleprompter on instead of with the teleprompter off, which it has been during her recent interviews. I don't think the canned performance last night did anything to erase the previous negative impressions, and I think the line about direct talk to the people vs. media filters made no sense.

Weird note on the subject of gay rights: She started to say something that I thought was going to be "some of my best friends are gay" but turned out to be "some of my best friends are homophobic bigots." They do appear to be going for the gay vote since I don't know who would be turned on by all this "I'm a maverick/He's a maverick" talk other than chaps wearing accountants on Folsom Street.

On the constitutional expansion issue, I don't think she was advocating anything. I think that was an area where she had no idea what she was talking about and crap just fell out of her mouth.

Biden did very well, although I was worried for a second during the final handshake that he was going to kiss her. Most importantly, I think Biden did a much better job of selling Obama and the Democrats than Palin did of selling McCain and the Republicans.

Her suit was beautiful.

I thought there was a weird vibe between the families on the platform at the end. I was worried the scene was going to go Springer.

I still say that's Bristol's baby.

[scaeagles]

I thought Biden did a stellar job of driving home two main themes. 1) Go ahead and bring up individual votes all you want, I can show you how the REAL thrust of that vote was the bill it was attached to, not the issue you want it to be about

Places where I think he failed: 1) Regarding the surge, I think the Obama camp's tack should be, "We were against the surge not because we think it was doomed to failure, but because we would rather have seen a strategy that put the responsibility on Iraqis to handle their own ****."

Kind of like when Biden was saying Obama voted for the 4 billion in oil company tax breaks, but did so for a different motive than McCain? Clearly when they voted the same he was questioning their motives.

Secondly, it may be good if Obama says that about the surge, but it would be a lie. The entire dem platform - and I'll look for Obama quotes later - has been that it was doomed to failure, and that it was failing.

What Biden had no answer for was when she quote him regarding how he disagreed with Obama and his stances duing the primary debates and would be honored to run with McCain. He had no answer for that.

[3894]

Biden is my new geriatric crush.

[innerSpaceman]

And I guess I can't complain about "nukular," since I really like "Bosniacs."





scaeagles, of course Biden didn't have an answer about disagreeing with Obama when they were campaign opponents. There is none. I honestly don't recall though .... did he simply not answer, or did he evade with a speech about something else entirely? If the former, that was pretty classy (imo) in a debate full of bullsh!t evasions (on both sides).

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Bosniacs was a slip, I think, like O'Biden - and I slip all the time so I'm forgiving.

But nu-kyu-lar is intentional. And I don't care how accepted it's becoming, I'm always going to look down on anyone who mispronounces it. Look at the word. It's not spelled nucular. Nu-cle-ar. It's right there in the spelling. And I don't support the vocabularic pandering of accepting "libary" or "axe me a question" either.

Hey, did you guys notice she recommended we trust the terrorists? Biden said that they're in the hills in Afghanistan and Pakistan; she said that our general and the terrorist leader both said they're in Iraq and we should trust their word. Trust the general, honey, but maybe not the terrorist.

[blueerica]

I also thought the "I've only been at this for 5 1/2 weeks" line was not smart.

Hrmmm.... I actually liked that line from her the best. What I couldn't stand were the cheesy 'tagline' statements she made throughout.

Overall, interesting debate. I don't think any one did better than the other, really. If anything McCain will see the boost (as mentioned and evidenced by GD), partly because she didn't come off as dumb as she has in recent times.

[innerSpaceman]

I actually wonder if Palin will stop dominating the news once the Presidential Debates resume next Tuesday. Since his big "campaign suspension" gaffe, McCain's been invisible in the media. That can't be good for a candidate ... though, in truth, I think the Republican Ticket is reversed and that there are Palin supporters and there are Obama supporters.

I'm not sure there are many true McCain supporters. Quite the oddity this time around.

[scaeagles]

scaeagles, of course Biden didn't have an answer about disagreeing with Obama when they were campaign opponents. There is none. I honestly don't recall though .... did he simply not answer, or did he evade with a speech about something else entirely? If the former, that was pretty classy (imo) in a debate full of bullsh!t evasions (on both sides).

He tried to put a spin on it, but never directly addressed it.

I don't think it's classy to avoid the issue, though. I think with such a large portion of the current political debate being Iraq and Afghanistan it is VERY important why he thought Obama to be "not ready" to be commander in chief and why those rather pointed criticisms of Obama and praise of McCain - when there have been no significant policy shifts for either since then - no longer apply now.

[scaeagles]

I'm not sure there are many true McCain supporters. Quite the oddity this time around.

Indeed. I am not one and I don't know of many, even here in the state of AZ.

[innerSpaceman]

You miss my point (and I don't remember what he did in response). Simply not answering is not avoiding the issue to same lame degree as talking about something else entirely. If tearing down your own candidate on national tv is simply NOT a possibility, I personally find just shutting up to be the classier move than prevaracating ... precisely because I think silence speaks volumes in response to certain questions. But better to be silent than to lie or juevenily change the subject.

[scaeagles]

OK.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Kind of like when Biden was saying Obama voted for the 4 billion in oil company tax breaks, but did so for a different motive than McCain? Clearly when they voted the same he was questioning their motives.


No, what he said, over and over, was that in the examples she would bring up in which Obama voted for/against X, either Obama was actually voting for/against Y which just happened to have X attached to it. Did John McCain vote for mandatory mental health coverage, NASCAR subsidies, and tax breaks this week? No, he voted for the bailout package. Did McCainn vote against troop funding? No, he voted against a timetable. That isn't questioning motivation, that's, correctly, pointing out that senate voting records are complex and easily distorted by ignoring context (not saying Obama's camp doesn't do the same, but it's still a salient point).

[scaeagles]

I would disagree in part. Biden was clearly trying to bring into question McCain's motives, particularly on 4 billion in tax breaks for oil companies. He was saying McCain is in the back pocket of big oil (or big business in general). He pointed out the 4 billion several times in that context.

I have no problem with that spin....it's what politicians do. But don't tell me you aren't questioning motives. Of course Biden was, particularly in that example.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Biden had concrete examples, facts. Palin had generalities. She sounded and looked nervous. She said "I'm not answering that." She winked and condescended, exactly like McCain does.

Again....please, oh mysterious fates, please let the American people see what I'm seeing.

[bewitched]

On the misspoken words front (which I don't consider very relevant to anything), Biden also referred to Bosniacs instead of Bosnians.


Apparently, Bosniacs is correct. Bosnians refers to the citizens of Bosnia as a whole. Bosniacs are one of 3 major ethnic groups (to whom Biden also referred):

Bosnia and Herzegovina is a multi-ethnic state with Bosniacs (40%), Serbs (33%), and Croats (20%) as the largest ethnic groups. Their separate ethnic identities partly stem from different religious affiliations. Bosniacs belong to the Islamic, Croats to the Roman Catholic, and Serbs to the Orthodox tradition. The Bosnian war (1992-1995) was one of the most devastating wars in Europe since World War II. The most recent figures indicate that about 100 000 out of a population of 4.4 million were killed and at least as many were injured

Full article (about war experience/distress 8 years after war) (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2269254)

[scaeagles]

I didn't pick up on any nervousness until about the last 15 minutes when she completely gacked a question on the role and powers of the VP. Then I thought she recovered.

She did say "I'm not answering that", which I kind of liked....they both didn't answer questions a lot and for her to admit once that she just wasn't going to answer it was refreshing.

Her mannerisms don't bug me, but they bug others, and I get that. For some reason I can't stand watching John Edwards speak for the same reasons, but it doesn't bother other people.

Because expectations for her were lower than expectations in any debate I can ever think of, I don't think they populace as a whole will be seeing those things. I think people who have already made up their minds will see what you see, just as those on my side won't see it that way at all.

[scaeagles]

Apparently, Bosniacs is correct. Bosnians refers to the citizens of Bosnia as a whole. Bosniacs are one of 3 major ethnic groups:


I learned something new today. Thanks.

[Snowflake]

She was much better in a dumbed down debate format, but she didn't answer many of the questions and instead just seized on the opportunity to cheer lead for her team, which I suppose was her prerogative but damned annoying to me as a viewer. I kept thinking "just answer the damned question already!" Very evasive, and very vague.

I fell the same as you WB. I felt she was adept at what she was coached to say, but I found her arrogance about not answering questions as posed very annoying.

That colored my judgement of her performance since she was unwilling or unable to even answer a question about what, given the current economic state, would the McPalin have to give up or bend (my words I'm paraphrasing) on what promises from the campaign not be kept. No politician has ever kept campaign promises, not all of them, not that I can recall. It's a small, niggling point, but it is this kind of crap that bugs me and illustrates that she is really not ready to make the jump from Gov-ner sx-pack to VP Hockey Mom (and alarmingly, Prez Palin if McCain drops over 2 days after election day)

She proved quite able to recite what she was coached on and evade, bait and switch and attack to deflect. The folksy manner and talk just irritated me. Let's face it, being a Main Street type person does not mean you hang out at the country store swilling beer and playin checkers with your buddies as she seems to illustrate. She has personality, but it's not one that apeals to me. Afterwards, I watched about 10 minutes of spin, and howled when I saw someone holding up a sigh that said Tina Fey '08, that I would vote for. :D

She exceeded my low expectations of her performance given the disasterous TV interviews. The right I am sure will feel great relief. She did nothing to sway me to consider my vote. Biden only strengthened my resolve that, for me, the Obama ticket is the one to cast my vote for. McCain and his platform do not speak to me or for me, so to me, McCain = no choice.

Of course, I am anxious for the next Obama-McCain debate on Tuesday.

[Gemini Cricket]

I picked up on the nervousness. Someone can perfect memorizing a script but truly selling it while not understanding what is being said can be really hard. I appeared to me that she hoped that she wouldn't have to stray from her script. When she did, we heard more "betchas" and "hecks".

"Ms. Palin, we have identified a 747 heading on a collision course with the Empire State Building. Do our Air Force pilots have authorization to bring it down?"

"Oh, you betcha." She said with a wink.

[bewitched]

"Ms. Palin, we have identified a 747 heading on a collision course with the Empire State Building. Do our Air Force pilots have authorization to bring it down?"

"Oh, you betcha." She said with a wink.


"Pew, pew, pew" ;)

[mousepod]

http://www.adennak.com/archives/palinflow.gif

[Betty]

I heard on the radio that this whole thing seemed like a Disney movie. They get the home town gal in as VP, something happens and she's now the unlikely president using her hometown ways to win everyone over and have a happy hollywood movie ending.

kind of creepy.

[Strangler Lewis]

[I]t's what politicians do.

I think the process would be improved if each side explained their voting record, statements, etc., with this answer. E.g.:

Biden/Hillary said Obama wasn't ready because they were running for president--what the f*ck do you expect them to say?

McCain/Obama voted this way or that because it led to greater cooperation on something else, because you can't be a total wild card, etc.

Obama talked about political realities to some extent in his book, but I haven't heard him or anyone else say it while the cameras were rolling.

[bewitched]

I heard on the radio that this whole thing seemed like a Disney movie. They get the home town gal in as VP, something happens and she's now the unlikely president using her hometown ways to win everyone over and have a happy hollywood movie ending.

kind of creepy.


I think someone already posted this (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461) somewhere else. :D

[BarTopDancer]

I think someone already posted this (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461) somewhere else. :D

That'd be me, in the McCain thread.

[Gemini Cricket]

In case anyone missed it, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FbCPzAsRA) is the Full Vice Presidential Debate.
:)

[Tom]

I think my feelings on the debate were best expressed by the analyst I read this morning who said that while Palin played an excellent AA game, Biden played a great big league game.

[Gemini Cricket]

There's this function on Twitter where you can see what people are saying about the elections. It's a constant scroll of what people are saying about the debates last night. It's fascinating watching what people are tweeting about.
A lot of it is funny. There are a lot of people in this country with a sense of humor. That makes me happy.
:)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

FYI, I believe the "Disney Movie" joke came from Matt Damon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk), and now it's the go-to line. He may just be a Hollywood blowhard, but he's right on the money here.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Webster may allow "nu-cu-lar" but I'm with Heidi- I can't respect someone when I hear that level of wrong fall from their lips.

I don't like Palin's mannerisms, but it's not the end of the world. I just wish she'd actually *say* something when she says something.

We're going to be affected by the substance of whoever we elect in November, but the campaign is being waged largely on style at this point and that bothers me immensely.

I'm sure she's a nice lady, but I really don't want her in the VP seat. I was looking for something to like about her, in case we get stuck with her, and I can't find anything.

[innerSpaceman]

I think she's pretty.



For what that's worth.



We could have a "pretty" president. Wouldn't that be swell?


You betcha!

[Gemini Cricket]

You know, I was expecting her to say "boy howdy" at some point in the debate. She didn't. Thank goodness.

[BarTopDancer]

I think she's pretty.



For what that's worth.



We could have a "pretty" president. Wouldn't that be swell?


You betcha!

Tina Fey for VP

[3894]

I think she's pretty.



For what that's worth.



We could have a "pretty" president. Wouldn't that be swell?


You betcha!

"Can I call you Joe?"/ wink / "It's 'Drill, baby, drill" / wink. Someone at TPM (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/10/flirty-are-you-kidding-me-so-m.php) put it so well :

WHAT A *bleep* INSULT TO WOMEN!!!! I'M *bleep* INSULTED!!! (I'm a man; a father who never lets his teenage daughter get away with behaving like that to get attention and what she wants. Great role model Sara Six-Pack.)
Why didn't she just hike her skirt up a couple of more inches along with her winking at the camera? She displayed all the worst female stereotypes with regard to affecting male attraction. She was behaving like she just got pulled over by a cop and was trying to use the suggestion of sex to get out of a ticket.
"Can I call you Joe?" Joe Biden is U.S. Senator who has served this country for 36 years; you uneducated small minded snotty prom queen!!!

[Ghoulish Delight]

Well, if she was trying to work her wiles on men, it seemingly didn't work. Women, on the other hand...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27009491/

Overall, Palin did better among women than among men, with greatest gains coming from Republican women relieved that the second female nominee in the nation’s history avoided mistakes and appeared confident and connected to ordinary voters.

...

“As a woman, I just wanted her to stop embarrassing us,” said Susannah Nation, 32, a human resources manager in Kentfield, Calif. “I’ve got to say I was impressed. She did not change my vote and I will never agree with her, but she was a studied candidate.”

Only male Democrats viewed Palin less favorably after the debate than before, according to Mitchell McKinney, a University of Missouri-Columbia researcher whose past debate analysis has predicted national trends.



ETA: The "stop embarrassing us" quote is from a Democrat.

[BarTopDancer]

Completely.

She insults me as a woman, as a hockey fan and as a future hockey mom.

"Can I call you Joe" just shows how informal our culture has become. Teachers are on a first name basis with students. Informal equates to comfortable/everyone is equal. Teachers are not equal to students.

[innerSpaceman]

Do you think Biden felt put on the spot by "Can I call you Joe?"



How do you think he'd feel if, when I meet him, I open with "Can I have your son Bow's phone number?"

[bewitched]

That'd be me, in the McCain thread.

Ah, sorry. I would've credited you but I couldn't remember where I'd seen it. :)

[bewitched]

FYI, I believe the "Disney Movie" joke came from Matt Damon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6urw_PWHYk), and now it's the go-to line. He may just be a Hollywood blowhard, but he's right on the money here.


Just another reason Matt and I are so right for each other. :D


(Not the blowhard part, of course. ;) )

[Alex]

Looking at the transcript, after having asked, she only ever actually said the word "Joe" in reference to Biden once and that was in her lame Reagan call out when she said "Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again..."

I'm sure that was a prepare line. I'm guessing she'd have used it even if he said no.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Asking him if it's ok to use his first name like that was a calculated move.
1- prepare for her upcoming tagline
2- he can say yes and let her appear his peer, or no and be a jerk
3- women are so friendly and personable they call everybody by their name; "look at me, I'm friendly"

Whatever. I can kind of understand it and kind of don't care.

[bewitched]

Looking at the transcript, after having asked, she only ever actually said the word "Joe" in reference to Biden once and that was in her lame Reagan call out when she said "Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again..."

I'm sure that was a prepare line. I'm guessing she'd have used it even if he said no.

Asking him if it's ok to use his first name like that was a calculated move.
1- prepare for her upcoming tagline
2- he can say yes and let her appear his peer, or no and be a jerk
3- women are so friendly and personable they call everybody by their name; "look at me, I'm friendly"

Whatever. I can kind of understand it and kind of don't care.

SO if he would have said no, would she still have used the line?

[alphabassettgrrl]

Probably. Too good to pass up. Hard to say for sure.

[mousepod]

How was "Say it ain't so, Joe" too good to pass up? I know I've been power-reading through LoT lately, but isn't there a discussion in the Movie Musings thread about crappy retreads? Palin's barb was two (count 'em) quotes strung together... nothing new. Sorry, but I don't think she did a good job. I think she regurgitated a few scripted bits as well as a typical high school junior in the school play. I'd love for Brian Williams to ask her: "'Say it ain't so Joe.' Do you know what famous event in American history this line refers to?"