Prop 8 Protest Information Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Gemini Cricket

11-15-2008, 02:53 PM

The LA rally today was phenomenal. HUGE turnout. I have yet to hear a final count on the numbers. But as I was leaving (about 1pm or so) people were still arriving to march.

I had a perfect spot. I was at the very front of the crowd that gathered around the stage. I was against the railing even. Dead center. The Mayor showed up for a short bit. I'm glad he showed up even with the fires going on. He left the rally to hop on a helicopter to go back to one of the fire areas.

I have a ton of pictures. Not sure how any of them turned out yet.

I did manage to run into alphabg, iSm and Isaac.

And, of course, being a dinglecheese, I left my phone in the car at the Universal metro station parking lot. So when I got to City Hall... I realized I had no phone. So I just went to the front of the crowd and cheered the speakers on. Lots of cameras all over the place.

I left early because I did not have water, didn't eat breakfast and was tired.

I'm so glad I went!
:)

Ghoulish Delight

11-15-2008, 02:59 PM

Awesome, if poorly prepared for, dinglecheese!

We're back from Irvine. The crowd was big, at least 300. It was bloody hot though and I think that sapped some of the energy. We got loud at points, especially when there'd be a stack of cars honking, but it was definitely not a chanting crowd.

No news media it seemed.

Great moment just before we left where most of the protesters gathered around a couple of the organizers on a small grassy area where they shouted some short but heratfelt sentiments. One recently came out to his parents and he had all of the married same sex couples join him up front. It was very good.

Probably not the spectacle that was the L.A. event, but it was a good showing, and it was good to hear people like the UCI chemistry professor talking seriously about getting organized. Saying that no matter what happens with Prop 8, this is far from over and whatever the next battle is will need organization, not just in L.A. and S.F. but statewide. It's the kind of thing that needed to be done 2 months ago, but it's not too late to get it going now.

Photos to come.

Kevy Baby

11-15-2008, 04:00 PM

I would put the Irvine crowd count at about 14,000

Moonliner

11-15-2008, 04:31 PM

I was down at the National Mall today. There were a slew of Prop-8 Protesters there.

In a way it was rather sad. In the good old days the White House was the center of most protest, now however today I saw something different. The protesters did not know where to go. There were groups scatted around the mall, some just marching along it, some heading here or there, no clear goal in mind. Eventually most of the groups I saw seemed to gravitate towards the 555' phallic symbol that graces the center of the mall. Just in time for a particularly strong line of thunderstorms to scatter them in all directions. Not a good protest day.

Gemini Cricket

11-15-2008, 05:26 PM

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508025.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508028.jpg
A few counter-protesters of the Phelps variety.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508030.jpg
The crowd gets bigger.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508034.jpg
The queen next to me had this sign.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508038.jpg
This was kinda cool. A kid with a lesbian mom came up on stage and started everyone chanting. Kid: "What do we want?" Us: "Equal rights." etc

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508045.jpg
Alec Mapa warms up the crowd.

More pics:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508047.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508051.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508054.jpg
I must say I was distracted by the hot guy doing the signing for the hearing impaired. ;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508059.jpg
One of the stars of Noah's Arc, Darryl Stephens.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508072.jpg
One of the better speakers of the day. A woman (forgot her name) was talking about being raised by 2 gay daddies and her mom who is a lesbian.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508075.jpg
Lorri Jean from the LA GLBT Center

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508079.jpg
Matt Lucas from Little Britain. Love her!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508084.jpg
2 Tracy Turblads and a Xena.
Rikki Lake, Marissa Winokur and Lucy Lawless

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508090.jpg
The march starts.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508097.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508099.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/Prop8Protest111508106.jpg

Ghoulish Delight

11-15-2008, 07:15 PM

It's GusGus's ear
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/3033612344_b5d90a048f_b.jpg

Love the guys that keep showing up with the huge flags
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/3032771465_6eaf110769_b.jpg

I'm starting to recognize people by their signs. The swastika guy's been at all 3 rallies I've been to
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/3033616568_6efb7215b0_b.jpg

Not the typical look for our supporters
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/3032776149_9b80078e46_b.jpg

LoT in the Hizouse!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/3032777759_c74dfd5c54_b.jpg

Great sign
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/3033622758_09d00296d3_b.jpg

A small fraction of the crowd
[/img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3058/3033624258_df8528f333_b.jpg[/img]

Odds are...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/3033625890_182542bf61_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/3032784041_cc7326ff55_b.jpg

This guy rang his bicycle bell in support :)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3212/3033633132_40a75ce722_b.jpg

We spilled over to all 4 corners
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/3032826361_f9f79708b4_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3032827863_5a3333a900_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/3032829343_0e8c1f8cab_b.jpg

A part of the crowd at it's largest
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/3032830827_3541510b3e_b.jpg

The LoT gets vocal. Kevy's sign says it all.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3165/3032838759_27d9061cea_b.jpg

No idea who this couple is, but it was a nice moment
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/3032840495_e709cf63b3_b.jpg

Kevy spreads the word
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/3032841973_8896a734c7_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/3032843577_002008b965_b.jpg

Surprise Celebrity Political Guest!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/3032845153_5626e55875_b.jpg

Ooooh, burrrrrrrn
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/3032851915_f37cfe0eaa_b.jpg

Speaking their mind
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3238/3032853967_e0ee2fca73_b.jpg

An ominous sky greeted us back home
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/3032855667_280d28c1b6_b.jpg

Kevy Baby

11-15-2008, 07:41 PM

My sign was very popular

Isaac

11-15-2008, 08:18 PM

One of my signs read "prop my balls":D

keith - SuPeR K!

11-15-2008, 08:35 PM

The Las Vegas 10:30am protest had a small crowd of over 100. We got to march from city hall to Fremont Street where we were allowed to march and make noise as long as we didn't hold our signs high in the air.

The 2pm rally and protest at the GLBT Center was awesome. A good 1500 people. Awesome speakers. Wanda Sykes was in the crowd just minding her own business when someone spotted her and asked her to speak. She basically got on stage and came out while explaining her feelings on Prop 8. She also explained she married her wife a few months ago. That was really cool of her to out herself for the cause. I was just blown away by some of the speakers... On the way from where the rally was to where we would be protesting, I bumping into none other than Dusty Sage, his man, and two other MiceChatters. Totally unexpected, but I was glad to see them there! I ended up staying at the protest until the very end which was around 5:30 or so. I then went and hung out at Starbucks with some of the cool people I met at the protest, who also happened to be some of the planners.

Today felt great. I'm exhausted, but it was more than worth it. I'm excited about the upcoming Vegas rallies and protests which are in the works!

Alex

11-15-2008, 09:25 PM

Here's a set of 34 photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/obfusciatrist/sets/72157609169141139/show/) from among those I took today. Way too bloody hot and the unexpected march added a few miles to the walking today.

We showed up at about 10:30 and there was a good crowd. I followed Lani about taking pictures while she handed out the 300 or so buttons she'd made, fending off money as she went. It felt like we were in a large group but later when I walked around to the other side I found we had been in a small side bundle. Apparently the police estimate was 20,000 people. The vast majority could neither see nor hear the speakers so in the area away from the stage it kind of had the atmosphere of a street fair.

Around 12:15 we were way dehydrated (we forgot to bring water and there was no shade) so we headed off to buy water. As we left the area we were talking about whether we should seek out the march we'd been hearing about and then a couple blocks away I looked back and found we were at that moment actually leading the march. It just coincidentally started right behind us on the route we were walking anyway.

Ended up marching all the way to the Castro (apparently the march was supposed to go the other way towards the ferry terminal so there ended up being two different marches when the police forced (about a block behind us by then) a break in the mark and then turned that part around).

Anyway, my first time doing anything like that. Lani's sign was awesome, in terms of quality of appearance I would say it was the best completely handwritten sign I saw. Her buttons were very popular.

~MS~

11-15-2008, 10:10 PM

Thanks for sharing Alex, we saw a blurb on the news and I was looking for you or Lani but didn't see either of you. I knew it was a long shot but Kudos for stepping out side your comfort zone.

innerSpaceman

11-16-2008, 12:49 AM

OMG, thanks for all the pics everyone.

I had a freaking awesome time at the BIG, and I mean BIG rally and March in Downtown L.A. Zlicstimate of the crowd at upwards of 20,000 people!!!

And Oh Lordy What a Fantastic Display of SIGNAGE. Isaac will post some pics soon I hope, but gays sure are a clever lot, and the growing sign fetich of the last 10 days culminated in Los Angeles today.

Ok, too tired to type. More later. Bye.

Melonballer

11-16-2008, 02:45 AM

Thanks for all the great posts and pics from today.

Ghoulish Delight

11-16-2008, 07:59 AM

Around 12:15 we were way dehydrated (we forgot to bring water and there was no shade)
Oh, the irony of you two forgetting to bring water to an event the day before MA...

Betty

11-16-2008, 08:22 AM

You must spread some mojo around before trying to give it to GC and GD again! :)

Great photos guys.

Gn2Dlnd

11-16-2008, 08:50 AM

Great pictures all, thanks!

Morrigoon

11-16-2008, 03:23 PM

Okay, here are some pics

Me and my sign, slogan courtesy of JWBear:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/constitutional.jpg

Our "token gay", Keith, with Sohrshah (huh... never got one of FP with him, unless someone else did)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/gretznkeith.jpg

The LoT contingent (well, most of us, missing a couple...)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/LoTStraightsAgainstH8.jpg

The crowd, as best I can show you:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100346.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100347.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100348.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100351.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100352.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100353.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100355.jpg

Couple great signs:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100367.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/P1100360.jpg

More here:
http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/ProtestH8/

alphabassettgrrl

11-16-2008, 05:05 PM

One news article put Irvine's crowd at 600, and LA at 14,000. Not the 40,000 they had expected, but still sizable.

My pictures from the protest:
www.flickr.com/photos/62443344@N00/sets/72157609196120022/

I think one of my favorite signs: "If you didn't want your kids to learn about gays, you should have left us alone".

Snowflake

11-17-2008, 09:04 AM

I was too far away, but it seemed to be a great crowd on Saturday at City Hall/Civic Center. Since we had to be at the library, we melted away through that crowd.

I (and my NJ houseguest) later joined a march through North Beach, quite by accident, with a police escort. It was fun, though freakin hot for SF this time of the year. The crowds lunching and walking along Columbus were waving and whistling and showing great signs of support. It was a great experience and I actually did run into a few people I know.

Cadaverous Pallor

11-17-2008, 09:07 AM

600 seems really high for Irvine.

Not Afraid

11-17-2008, 10:08 AM

So, what's next?

Gemini Cricket

11-17-2008, 10:17 AM

So, what's next?
For me, that's a very good question.

One of the frustrating things about going to these rallies is that the speakers did a lot of acknowledging of everyone's anger but didn't really talk about where we go from here. They talk about the lawsuits and 2010 but that's about all. I need a game plan that we can all rally around. Pink Holidays and A Day Without Gays aren't enough. (And I don't think they will make that big of a difference.)

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 10:43 AM

The sad truth is there is NOTHING to do.

In fact, the protests, demonstrations and rallies ARE what have to continue for the next 6 months in an effort to show public support for a California Supreme Court decision repealing the Prop 8 vote as an illegal revision.

There are only two tracks of action ... and they are indeed the current lawsuits before the California Supreme Court, and another ballot measure for 2010.

There is no direct action that can be taken to speed or influence these two processes. But since the Mormon Culthood will mount a recall effort of any justices who vote to repeal Prop 8, it is vital that public support remain highly visible until they make their decision.

The 100,000+ people who participated nationwide on Saturday is a big help, but it will be the support in California that really matters to our Supreme Court judges.

I'm pinning a lot of my hopes on those court cases, but wiser folks than me insist chances are 50/50 at best.

The other route, the much more involved, much more expensive route is to prepare and wage another ballot measure battle, for November 2010 - two years from now.

It's not like we'd have to wait two years to get started. Rather we should concentrate on public demonstrations for 6 months ... relatively inexpensive and easy ... until the Supreme Court ruling. If that doesn't go our way, it will indeed take 18 months of constant work and millions upon millions of dollars to bring this before the voters again with any chance of winning.

So for us right now, I think the fun thing to do would be to come up with some more creative-type demonstrations that might make the news ... and continue to make the news and involve people for the next 6 months.

And during that time, getting and keeping as many people involved will be paramount ... because if the court ruling goes against us, we will want to try a volunteer-basis signature drive to get the Prop 8 repeal measure on the ballot.

We would need one million signatures ... and identifying and marshalling those one million people before the start of the 150-day signature gathering period will not be easy. It's never been done on a volunteer basis in modern California politics. A professional signature gathering effort costs about $3 million in this State.

That would be $3 million less to spend on a campaign that might cost upwards of $30 million.

So I'm not sure what kind of "game plan" Gemini Cricket has in mind. But no one's gonna come down from on high and tell us what to do. We have just as much power to come up with a good idea or plan as anyone else, spread it on the internet, and see if it catches on or not.

I agree Pink Holidays and Days Without Gays may not be enough. But we need six months worth of newsworthy stuff, so every little bit helps.

Alex

11-17-2008, 10:48 AM

Don't know nearly enough of the law here.

The argument challenging Proposition 8 is that it was is actually a significant revision of the constitution and not merely an amendment, right? If this argument loses, Prop 8 becomes part of the constitution.

Wouldn't a new ballot proposition reversing prop 8 then much more clearly fall into trouble for being a significant revision (explicitly reversing what it says seems significant to me) to the constitution? Therefore, just to be safe, shouldn't there be an effort to get the state legislature to do their necessary part before getting an anti-Prop 8 prop on the ballot in 2010?

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 10:56 AM

Nope, from what I understand, if Prop 8 can amend the constitution by revising the constitution, then Anti Prop 8 can amend the constitution by revising the constitution right back.

In other words, if the judges ok Prop 8 (which says marriage is between a man and a woman) as a valid ballot measure, then another measure which says marriage is between a man and a goat is just as valid.

(That's not to say getting the legislature involved for a revision effort would not be wise, and would not be undertaken ... but a revision is pretty much not gonna happen either way. I think it requires a super-majority of both the legislature and the voters, so it's pretty much out of the question ... if my understanding is correct.)

Morrigoon

11-17-2008, 11:50 AM

The sad truth is there is NOTHING to do.

According to a post in the OCEC facebook group, the other thing to do is to be sending emails/letters to our public officials who are being flooded with communication from the other side, and remind them that we support them protecting equal rights.

Information here (http://www.eqca.org/siteapps/advocacy/ActionItem.aspx?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=4025663&aid=11458&qa=fuJQI5NMLgJVI6MSIvE)

Taking action is simple and free with EQCA’s Action Center.

Prop 8 must be overturned and we need to let the leaders who are standing with us know how much we appreciate their support.

The other side is flooding them with critical emails. It is up to each of us to make sure they get more emails from those who support equality than from those who continue to attack us.

Please, email our elected leaders who are standing with us today. And urge everyone you know to do so as well.

Gemini Cricket

11-17-2008, 11:50 AM

Written by Cleve Jones (gay activist) and Dustin Lance Black (screenwriter of Milk):
It has been 30 years since Milk gave his life in our struggle for equality. We will not wait 30 years more. We demand that the federal government act immediately, decisively and unequivocally to ensure equal protection under law throughout the United States of America.
We call on President-elect Barack Obama, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to draft and submit to the Congress comprehensive legislation protecting the civil rights of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender citizens in all areas, including civil marriage, military service, adoption, Social Security, taxation, immigration, employment, housing and access to health care, social services and education.
Source (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/14/EDFI144D4P.DTL&hw=cleve+jones&sn=001&sc=1000)

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 04:27 PM

Sending letters to those politicians is a nice idea, but there will be no recall effort against them, and their amicus brief is already filed with the court. So there's no direct advantage to maintaining their support, but it certainly couldn't hurt ... and if you're ok with an email, that link Goonie provided makes it too easy not to do.

BUT ... we can't send letters to the Supreme Court Justices ... and they are the people making the decision, they are the ones who may face recall for the courage of their convictions.

Gemini Cricket

11-17-2008, 05:19 PM

An interesting Op-Ed piece:
...there exists a more direct means of challenging Proposition 8 based on the U.S. Constitution.

Following the enactment of Colorado's Amendment 2, its opponents filed suit claiming that it unlawfully singled out gays and lesbians as a class to deny them rights that other citizens not only possess but take for granted. These rights include access to housing, government services, public accommodations and public and private employment opportunities without regard to an individual's race, sex, religion, age, ancestry, political belief or other characteristic that defines each of us as a unique human being. Amendment 2, the opponents argued, therefore denied gays and lesbians the equal protection of the laws, which is a guarantee of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-gray17-2008nov17,0,3307805.story)

Ghoulish Delight

11-17-2008, 05:28 PM

wendybeth

11-17-2008, 05:29 PM

Maybe what's happened in Cali may be for the greater good overall. It's got people all across this country talking, and moved more than just the Mormons and Fundies to action. When people see this for what it is- a Constitutionally guaranteed right that is being denied a specific class for religious reasons- well, I think it might make others who might not have had any real opinion on the matter sit up and take action. One step back sometimes leads to a great leap forward.

Gemini Cricket

11-17-2008, 05:31 PM

One step back sometimes leads to a great leap forward.
:)

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 05:38 PM

Yes, I hope that's the case.

In any event, I've no doubt that this is the perfect thing to have happened .... because it did.

Alex

11-17-2008, 07:14 PM

There's also this oft-cited excerpt from Westbrook v. Mihaly 2 Cal. 3d 756.

"constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because the majority of the people choose that they be"

Unfortunately, while I can find plenty of people making reference to the quote, I can find no details on the actual case and whether it might apply to this one.

You can read the case decision here (http://www.state-citizen.org/files/cites-cases/mihaly.zip) (it is a ZIP file containing a TXT file). Search for "--*--" to get down to the part where the analysis ends and the decision starts.

The issue in the case seems to have been two bond measures passed in San Francisco in 1969. They passed with a simple majority but not the super-majority required by the California constitution (back in 1970, don't know about now). Supporters filed in attempt to have the courts require certification of the bonds as having passed on the grounds that California's 2/3rds majority requirement for bond measures was a violation of the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment. (On the grounds that in such a requirement a No vote has twice the weight of a Yes vote.)

I just skimmed it, but I believe the court ruled that there was not a sufficient governmental interest in the two-thirds requirement and struck it down (but I may be misunderstanding my brief skim since I know many places do still have such requirements).

The placement of the quote is in rejecting the idea that the 2/3 requirement is allowable simply because it was correctly incorporated into the state constitution. (Essentially they are saying "no, if this is unconstitutional otherwise, it is not made constitutional simply for having been legally added.")

However, that decision doesn't seem to be the actual source for the quote. And what it weird is that it apparently could be cited from a much more prominent source. According to the footnotes in Westbrook v. Mihaly they are quoting Lucas v. 44th General Assembly of Colorado (http://supreme.justia.com/us/377/713/case.html#F29) (1964) when they rules that the state's new state legislature redistricting plan was unconstitutional and needed to be redone.

It is this opinion, written by Chief Justice Earl Warren that the quoted bit appears. Admittedly they apparently finally found a catchy way of saying it. In footnotes associated with this quote they reference themselves (the Supreme Court previously saying:
One's right to life, liberty, and property . . . and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections. - West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette (http://supreme.justia.com/us/319/624/case.html) (1943)
and
No plebiscite can legalize an unjust discrimination. - Hall v. St. Helena Parish School Bd. (http://supreme.justia.com/us/368/515/case.html) (1962)

Anyway, that is all way more than I intended to seek out. It was an interesting 40 minute journey of reading. Surprisingly that Mihaly decision makes for an interesting read, at least as a skim.

Cadaverous Pallor

11-17-2008, 07:19 PM

Only people who live outside of this state think that "Cali" sounds cool. :p

I'd be very optimistic about an eventual federal constitutional amendment awarding equal rights to gays on all fronts except for the fact that this administration and congress has a crapload on their plate already. It takes a lot of oomph to get an amendment passed. I do think it's possible and actually rather likely if you look long term.

Cadaverous Pallor

11-17-2008, 07:28 PM

VAM for the research!

Alex

11-17-2008, 07:35 PM

Which 38 states do you see passing a gay right amendment to the constitution? I'd be amazed if you could get 15, let alone 38 (and an amendment would never get out of congress without a kill switch so you couldn't let it sit for 190 years like we did the 27th Amendment).

Or, to even get to that point, which 66 senators and 288 congressman? Even if the Democrats votes unanimously in favor of such an amendment (and they wouldn't) they're nowhere close the the threshhold.

No, the only chance any time soon for full secured equality for gays is if the US Supreme Court decides that it is already there in the constitution. Just as there is no way we'd pass such an amendment I think it is probably (though we just got bit in the ass on that assumption, didn't we) true that an amendment to reverse the USSC probably wouldn't get anywhere either.

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 07:38 PM

Only people who live outside of this state think that "Cali" sounds cool. :p

Hahaha. I've almost gotten so used to my Vegas friends calling it that. But just as they've taught me the correct way to pronounce "Nevada" (i.e., the way Nevadans say it), I hope to one day prevail upon them that the correct way to say California is the way Californians say it (i.e., California). ;)

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 07:42 PM

And I have to agree with Alex the only way to get this federalized is to take it to the U.S. Supreme Court.

And if the "Cali" Supreme Court goes against us, it seems as if we'd have a U.S. Supreme Court case right away.

Would it be wise to take it there at this time? Would they even take the case? Does the current make-up of the Court bode well, or would waiting for some potentially more liberal future Court be wiser?

Interesting questions. I wish my civil rights didn't depend on them.

Alex

11-17-2008, 07:42 PM

Only people who live outside of this state think that "Cali" sounds cool. :p

And people outside of California generally don't give a flying blip what people from Cali think.

Hell, I've been here a decade and I can barely bring myself to do it.

Alex

11-17-2008, 07:45 PM

And I have to agree with Alex the only way to get this federalized is to take it to the U.S. Supreme Court.

And if the "Cali" Supreme Court goes against us, it seems as if we'd have a U.S. Supreme Court case right away.

Are you talking about a separate case arguing against Prop 8 on 14th amendment grounds or the case arguing against Prop 8 on technical grounds as to whether it was a legitimate topic for a proposition?

Would the latter even be reviewable by the USSC? (And if so, does it seem likely they'd grant cert?)

Kevy Baby

11-17-2008, 07:48 PM

Isaac

11-17-2008, 07:49 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v686/zapppop/gay000306marriagelp4.gif

innerSpaceman

11-17-2008, 07:49 PM

I'm thinking a separate case againt Prop 8 on 14th Amendment grounds because, no, I don't think the technical Prop 8 case currently before the Cali Supremes would be reviewable by the Fed Supremes.

BarTopDancer

11-17-2008, 07:52 PM

Hahaha. I've almost gotten so used to my Vegas friends calling it that. But just as they've taught me the correct way to pronounce "Nevada" (i.e., the way Nevadans say it), I hope to one day prevail upon them that the correct way to say California is the way Californians say it (i.e., California). ;)

You mean the proper way of saying "Nevada" isn't "Vegas"?

Gemini Cricket

11-17-2008, 07:52 PM

I like "Cali" as much as I like "Frisco". Bleh!
:D

Gemini Cricket

11-17-2008, 07:57 PM

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/gay-marriage-cartoon.gif

Kevy Baby

11-17-2008, 08:46 PM

http://candorville.com/comics/2008-11-17-7hours.gif (http://candorville.com/)

Cadaverous Pallor

11-17-2008, 08:57 PM

Love both of those comics.

I took inspiration from Second Class Citizen's wonderful avatar and finally made a new sign for my car (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8091266@N04/3039396573/sizes/l/), as my No on 8 sign is a bit out of date. I think the people around here might not actually understand such a smart design as SCCs so I spelled it out on mine.

This large size should print perfectly on a letter size sheet of paper if anyone cares to download and print. I used photo paper and it looks fantastic.

alphabassettgrrl

11-17-2008, 09:49 PM

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/nov/16/hundreds-walk-against-prop-8-opponents-hold-in/
Ventura: 600

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-marriage-gay-2229941-state-voters
OC Register says 1000 at the Civic Center.

LA Times was bogging down my 'puter so I couldn't get a story from them.

I suspect it's difficult to estimate crowd sizes.

Kevy Baby

11-17-2008, 10:52 PM

OC Register says 1000 at the Civic Center.

I suspect it's difficult to estimate crowd sizes.Too high. I say 600 and I think GD said he thought it was 400.

alphabassettgrrl

11-17-2008, 10:56 PM

I'll trust you guys. Just posting what the paper said.

wendybeth

11-17-2008, 11:04 PM

Uhm, I said 'Cali' just because I was too lazy to spell out the entire word. I'm not all that concerned with being verbally cool, but if it makes everyone feel better I'll just go with CA. Sounds a bit like poo, but really cool poo, right?;)

Alex

11-17-2008, 11:15 PM

Nah, it's California so it would just be really full of itself poo.

wendybeth

11-17-2008, 11:27 PM

Nah, it's California so it would just be really full of itself poo.

VAM!

Ghoulish Delight

11-18-2008, 12:54 AM

While Alex provided the superbly researched correct answer, I was going to note that at Saturday's Irvine protest, someone had a sign crediting that quote to Abraham Lincoln.
Don't know if you saw a different sign there, but the one I saw (here (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/3032851915_f37cfe0eaa_b.jpg)) has it correct. Or at least correctly attributed to the supreme court, and semi-incorrectly but popularly accepted attributed to the wrong case as Alex discovered.

lashbear

11-18-2008, 01:52 AM

VAM!
BTW: Does anyone else promounce this in their head as "VAY-um"

wendybeth

11-18-2008, 02:30 AM

Pronunciations vary, Lash. The real question is 'Do the really cool people pronounce it that way?' I lean toward the Chef Emiril pronunciation, but I think that's just a LaGasse thing.

lashbear

11-18-2008, 02:57 AM

I am SO looking forward to staying with you.

Betty

11-18-2008, 07:15 AM

OK - WTF is VAM?

It's not in the Internet Acronyms Dictionary and I think it was in another thread around here but no 3 letter searches so...

€uroMeinke

11-18-2008, 07:59 AM

OK - WTF is VAM?

It's not in the Internet Acronyms Dictionary and I think it was in another thread around here but no 3 letter searches so...

V= Visible
A= Alex
M= Mojo

Betty

11-18-2008, 08:29 AM

Thank you. That should really be included in the acronym dictionary ya know! :p

Snowflake

11-18-2008, 09:32 AM

Pronunciations vary, Lash. The real question is 'Do the really cool people pronounce it that way?' I lean toward the Chef Emiril pronunciation, but I think that's just a LaGasse thing.

quoted for posterity

WB, you positively kill me :snap:

Kevy Baby

11-18-2008, 10:24 AM

VAM!BTW: Does anyone else pronounce this in their head as "VAY-um"No

JWBear

11-18-2008, 10:28 AM

I pronounce it to rhyme with "bam" or "jam".

Alex

11-18-2008, 10:47 AM

For me it is still an initialism. And I'd be perfectly fine if it went away, though I am amused the few times it has been used in response to what someone else has said.

wendybeth

11-18-2008, 12:04 PM

It's taken on a life of it's own, Alex. Before long it will be in the dictionary, along with 'the word formerly known as iSm's favorite expression of disdain'.

lashbear

11-18-2008, 12:47 PM

God forbid iSm ever gets it all bass-ackward and says "hem"...

lashbear

11-18-2008, 12:49 PM

I pronounce it to rhyme with "bam" or "jam".
Me too.... but it sounds better with a drawling southern accent - thus, "Vayam" or "Vayum" depending on how you spell fonetikly

Kevy Baby

11-18-2008, 04:56 PM

Candorville (http://candorville.com/) is on a roll

http://candorville.com/comics/2008-11-18-check.gif (http://candorville.com/)

innerSpaceman

11-18-2008, 05:02 PM

Please stop posting those, Kevy. My blood pressure can't handle it.

Morrigoon

11-18-2008, 05:03 PM

Gemini Cricket

11-18-2008, 05:14 PM

I like them, too. I wonder if Bell will dedicate the whole week to the subject.

wendybeth

11-18-2008, 05:16 PM

Morri hit it on the head- people need to be confronted with their prejudices before any changes in attitudes will be made. No one is comfortable admitting that they have a problem with bias or racism, least of all people who have suffered from such things themselves. Holding a mirror up is a good thing- maybe if they don't like what they see in it they will change.

Gemini Cricket

11-18-2008, 05:23 PM

I read an interesting comment at the bottom of one of the hundreds of online articles I read about Prop 8. It went something like this: A woman's parents were giving her a hard time about Prop 8 and why it was so important for two female friends of theirs to call their union a marriage. The woman pointed out to them that after 15 years of commitment they were more than just girlfriends. So the woman asked her parents what if she decided not to acknowledge their (her parents') marriage any more. She started referring to her father as her mom's boyfriend and her mom as her dad's friend. They were offended at that saying that after 40 some odd years they deserved to be called husband and wife. She then pointed out that it was the same for their lesbian friends. No different. She said that this discussion with her parents started them thinking differently about the subject. I thought that was great.
:)

innerSpaceman

11-18-2008, 05:27 PM

iSm: outreach is what's needed right now. If those comics make even a few people change their minds, that's a few more people you need to support your rights. You should be encouraged that someone is out there trying to change the minds most needing changing.

See, I don't see them as outreach. I see them as scolding. Black people are not going to be convinced by scolding them or telling them what disgusting hypocrits they are.

Now, granted, I'm not the one to be doing the outreach. But I can certainly tell you why that is.

Those comics are NOT outreach.

Gemini Cricket

11-18-2008, 05:34 PM

I disagree. I see them as outreach. Mr. Bell is African American and is making a commentary about the Yes votes on 8. I think it's great.

Alex

11-18-2008, 05:43 PM

See, I don't see them as outreach. I see them as scolding. Black people are not going to be convinced by scolding them or telling them what disgusting hypocrits they are.

Even if that's all it is, is this scolding any less appropriate than scolding Mormons and members of Saddleback Chruch by standing outside their temples and press conferences chanting and holding signs?

innerSpaceman

11-18-2008, 06:05 PM

I said I'm not the one for outreach.

Scolding is what I'm in the mood for. But it's not very productive.

Kevy Baby

11-18-2008, 08:43 PM

I like them, too. I wonder if Bell will dedicate the whole week to the subject.I suspect so. He usually does things like that.

___________________________

Scolding is what I'm in the mood for.Then you should be happy with these comics:
See, I don't see them as outreach. I see them as scolding.

Gemini Cricket

11-19-2008, 03:35 PM

At the urging of both sponsors and opponents of Proposition 8, the justices granted review of lawsuits challenging the Nov. 4 initiative. Approved by 52 percent of the voters, Prop. 8 restored the definition of marriage - a union of a man and a woman - that the court had overturned May 15.
In today's order, the justices let Prop. 8 remain in effect, denying a stay that would have allowed county clerks to resume issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples until the case was decided. No hearing has been scheduled.

Source (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/19/BAJC147QAJ.DTL)

Morrigoon

11-19-2008, 04:44 PM

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/mcprop.html

When political attacks are launched from churches, political responses will be delivered to churches. If goddamned McDonald's had organized and paid for Prop 8, we'd be marching on goddamned McDonald's.

I have a feeling we may have just found iSm's next sig line.

innerSpaceman

11-19-2008, 04:48 PM

Nope, though I love the sentiment. (btw, that's a Dan Savage quote, which Andrew Sullivan just happened to quote in his blog.)

Gemini Cricket

11-19-2008, 05:15 PM

For Steve:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/2008-11-19-notcatholic.gif

innerSpaceman

11-19-2008, 05:23 PM

HeeHee, now that one didn't make my blood boil for some reason.

But, sigh, the series is really not helping too much with me getting over my anger at black people who are so frelling ignorant and hating and hypocritical.

It's true there wasn't enough effort to reach out to those folks and convince those on the margins that might be convinced to overcome their homophobia or that their religious beliefs were not in conflict or that their gender identity norms were due for a change .... but it's also true that shouldn't have been necessary.

Le sigh.

Chernabog

11-19-2008, 08:42 PM

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highprofile/prop8.htm

There is a list of all the stuff that was submitted for/against hearing Prop 8 in the Supreme Court :) Really good reading!

Gemini Cricket

11-20-2008, 12:59 PM

Well-written editorial in today's LA Times.
Many voters will claim that the courts should have no jurisdiction at all. Just as they did after the California court's May ruling that legalized same-sex marriage, these people will complain about "activist judges" potentially subverting the will of the people. Maybe schools need to strengthen their civics lessons so that future voters will understand that supreme courts specifically are charged with ruling on constitutional questions -- and it is a sacred and historic role of the courts to protect minority rights as enshrined in state and federal constitutions. Indeed, if courts merely existed to ratify the will of majorities, they would add little to our society.
Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-marriage20-2008nov20,0,2916989.story)

keith - SuPeR K!

11-20-2008, 01:46 PM

http://images.townnews.com/lasvegascitylife.com/content/articles/2008/11/20/news/local_news/iq_252202621.jpg
PHOTO BY BILL HUGHES
Keith Kocienski works on a sign before joining anti-Proposition 8 protesters at City Hall.

The above photo of me is from the first Vegas protest. It appeared in this week's edition of a local Vegas weekly newspaper.

Read the full Las Vegas CityLife article! (http://lasvegascitylife.com/articles/2008/11/20/news/local_news/iq_25220262.txt)

Morrigoon

11-20-2008, 01:56 PM

Hot damn Keith! That picture will get you laid.

innerSpaceman

11-20-2008, 01:59 PM

Oh, please, most any picture of him. Sheesh. ok, maybe not the mohawk avatar shot ... tho i'm certain that appeals to a certain demographic.

But I love how intent you look in that, K ... so purposeful and dedicated.

Betty

11-20-2008, 02:15 PM

Hot damn Keith! That picture will get you laid.

No kidding! I was trying to think of a polite way to post that so I'll just agree with you! :evil: :cheers:

BarTopDancer

11-20-2008, 04:34 PM

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/gaymarriage.gif

Not Afraid

11-20-2008, 04:57 PM

OMG Keith! Wanna go for a drive? ;)

Not Afraid

11-20-2008, 05:00 PM

I don't know if this has been posted yet. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/19/BAJC147QAJ.DTL&type=politics&tsp=1)

State Supreme Court rejoins Prop. 8 battle

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer (begelko@sfchronicle.com)
Thursday, November 20, 2008

(11-19) 18:32 PST SAN FRANCISCO -- The state Supreme Court plunged back into the same-sex marriage wars Wednesday, agreeing to decide the legality of a ballot measure that repealed the right of gay and lesbian couples to wed in California.

keith - SuPeR K!

11-20-2008, 06:21 PM

LOL Visual Mojo to 'Goon, iSm, and NotAfraid since I must spread some around before giving it to any of you three!

Isaac

11-20-2008, 06:49 PM

You're famous !
Can I have your autograph ? ;)

BarTopDancer

11-20-2008, 07:04 PM

From Andrew:

Subway Franchise Forced to Recall Prop 8 donation. (http://blogs.wsj.com/independentstreet/2008/11/19/subway-franchisee-forced-to-recall-prop-8-donation/)

innerSpaceman

11-20-2008, 07:11 PM

Yeah, but too bad I hate Subway and like El Pollo Loco.

Ghoulish Delight

11-20-2008, 07:18 PM

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm happy about that. I can't confirm if it's true or not, but someone else who had contributed and was being boycotted said that they were required to disclose their employer when they contributed. If that is indeed the case, then I don't see how Subway could have the policy since it would exclude a franchisee from making any political donation as they would be required to use the Subway name.

BarTopDancer

11-20-2008, 07:27 PM

It sounded like they donated in the name of Subway, not that they donated and worked/owned a Subway (via employment disclosure).

JWBear

11-20-2008, 07:33 PM

Plus they didn't work for Subway, they worked for the the franchisee. When I managed an ARCO gas station (ancient history) I worked for the franchisee, Prestige Stations, not ARCO.

mousepod

11-20-2008, 07:46 PM

This story makes me happy. For the past two weeks, I've been getting all of my lunches almost exclusively at Subway. I was a Pollo Loco guy until the list came out, and the only other cheap food place in the strip mall across from my office is McDonalds...

second class citizen

11-20-2008, 10:37 PM

I got this in an email yesterday and thought it might be of interest.

Just this afternoon, the California Supreme Court decided to grant review to numerous lawsuits regarding Prop. 8, making the case that:

Prop. 8 is invalid because it constitutes a revision of, rather than an amendment to, the California Constitution.

Prop. 8 violates the separation of powers doctrine under the California Constitution.

If Prop. 8 is not unconstitutional, the marriages performed before Prop 8 passed should still be valid.
The court gave a very short briefing schedule, giving the state until December 19th to respond and giving our side until January 5th to respond to those briefs. Amicus briefs must be filed by January 15th, with replies to those due by January 21st.

The court did NOT grant a stay of Prop. 8 as had been requested. So, during the pendency of this matter, no marriage licenses will be issued to same-sex couples. Over the past 100 years, the California Supreme Court has heard nine cases challenging either legislative enactments or initiatives as invalid revisions of the California Constitution. In three of those cases, the Court invalidated those measures.

We are very pleased that the Court has granted review of these cases (they could have opted to not consider the lawsuits), but this should not be considered an indication they will rule in our favor. We’ll keep you updated as news develops.

Sincerely,

Lorri

P.S. - Please consider making a donation to support the Center’s work, not only on behalf of the freedom to marry, but to care for the thousands of people who depend on us.

Visit www.InvalidateProp8.org to support the efforts to overturn Prop. 8 and to send a message to the leadership of the Mormon church.

Ghoulish Delight

11-20-2008, 11:16 PM

It sounded like they donated in the name of Subway, not that they donated and worked/owned a Subway (via employment disclosure).

Plus they didn't work for Subway, they worked for the the franchisee. When I managed an ARCO gas station (ancient history) I worked for the franchisee, Prestige Stations, not ARCO.That may be the case, but nothing I've seen gives those details, so I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon.

innerSpaceman

11-21-2008, 12:07 AM

oh, but i have. This story is a few days old already, made the rounds of the gay news earlier in the week with more detailed information. Not that he didn't work for Subway directly, but rather that the donation was made in Subway's name ... not merely that he listed Subway as his employer. Improper use of their logo was involved, in that he either used their letterhead or an an actual business check in making the donation.

Tenigma

11-23-2008, 09:27 PM

Hai guyz;

One true regret I had during the Obama campaign was not organizing button-making parties and posting button template PDFs online. Not this time.

I have a bunch of button designs available in PDF format that I've uploaded to JoinTheImpact.com (http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/page/button+templates). If you or anyone you know has a button press (standard 2.25" size as well as the popular 1.25" lapel size), please feel free to use them.

Gemini Cricket

12-29-2008, 11:02 PM

I didn't see any reason to stop my gay rights activism just because I'm in Hawai'i.
My letter in today's Star Bulletin. (http://www.starbulletin.com/editorials/letters/20081229_Letters_to_the_Editor_.html) (Scroll to the bottom.)
Since Obama is in my town, I figure I'd write something he might see.
:)

Morrigoon

12-29-2008, 11:05 PM

Didn't even think about him being in town. Rock on.

JWBear

12-29-2008, 11:14 PM

lashbear

12-30-2008, 01:43 AM

bewitched

12-30-2008, 02:37 AM

:snap:

Strangler Lewis

12-30-2008, 07:31 AM

Nice letter, GC.

Ironic that your letter shares the page with someone who wants to criminalize the "movement of game cocks." If she's not game, that's fine, but . . .

Chernabog

01-08-2009, 03:10 PM

Hee hee... I love THE ONION:

Typo In Proposition 8 Defines Marriage As Between 'One Man And One Wolfman'

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SACRAMENTO, CA—Activists on both sides of the gay marriage debate were shocked this November, when a typographical error in California's Proposition 8 changed the state constitution to restrict marriage to a union between "one man and one wolfman," instantly nullifying every marriage except those comprised of an adult male and his lycanthrope partner. "The people of California made their voices heard today, and reaffirmed our age-old belief that the only union sanctioned in God's eyes is the union between a man and another man possessed by an ungodly lupine curse," state Sen. Tim McClintock said at a hastily organized rally celebrating passage of the new law. But opponents, including Bakersfield resident Patricia Millard—who is now legally banned from marrying her boyfriend, a human, non-wolfman male—claim it infringes on their civil liberties. "I love James just as much as a wolfman loves his husband," Millard said. "We deserve the same rights as any horrifying mythical abomination." On the heels of the historic typo, voters in Utah passed a similar referendum a week later, defining marriage as between one man and 23 wolfmen.