Required Community Service?

[BDBopper]

Please excuse me and I beg your pardon if this has been discussed elsewhere. I am aware of President Elect Barack Obama's idea of requiring (or maybe not that strict) community service. Does anyone else have a problem with it?

I have committed my life to serve my community and world with a big & glad heart and a smiling face. I have done this because that is what (my) God has called me to do and frankly I feel it is the right thing to help people. If you needed help would you rather be served with someone who cares about you or someone who is just there because it is a requirement and they just want to get it over with? I know beggars can't be choosers but you are likely to be helped out much more by a person who is there committed to serve gladly.

I have no problem at all with more people serving their community. I think we should encourage it with no strings attatched. WE will mae our community, nation, and world a better place. I just don't see how requiring community service will serve a better purpose than just encouraging it. And are there only certain projects and programs that these young adults have to do to count?

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of you who may disagree with me and maybe I shouldn't have brought it up but it was fresh on my mind. I just wanted to get my opinoin on the matter off my chest.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I read a book not to long ago written by a conservative and a liberal teaming up to come up with answers on how to reunite blue and red America. Part of the reason they were able to get along (and they really were diametrically opposed on many issues) is that they were both involved in military families.

Part of their idea was to have a requirement of a year or more of community service straight after high school, either in the military, peace corp, local community stuff, etc. They felt that this would help bond people to their country, to their fellow citizens. We would feel we have a stake in our society. We'd meet fellow Americans doing their part and would learn how rewarding service can be.

I'm digging this concept. I can't say I have any clue what the exact guidelines would be, but I think there's something to it. BD, you're right, not everyone will be thrilled to help out but many would learn something from the experience and carry it with them into the rest of their lives.

[flippyshark]

The only references I can find are to programs in schools that require a certain number of hours of community service in order to get financial aid. (Unless you are a student, this wouldn't affect you.) I guess it seems like an okay idea in principle as long as its a) not absolutely mandatory, and b) not the only way to earn financial assistance.

Volunteerism that comes from the heart is always much more valuable than service that is made mandatory. I can't imagine any administration would or could ever coerce community service from us workaday grownups. i get the impression that Obama is trying to find ways to give incentives to those who mean well but are too lazy to get off their duffs. (presumably, once people actually try volunteer work, they will find that it's rewarding enough to continue doing.)

It's absolutley true that no one can legislate a change of heart, and there wil always be lots of people who don't give a crap, alas.

Keep up the good work, BDB.

[blueerica]

Not much to say on it as of right now, but I know that my sisters were required to perform community service over a year as a project. I know many So Cal high-schoolers are as well.

While I have a disdain for the idea of mandatory or compulsory anything, I do like the idea where it could be used for high schoolers to earn credit - sort of an independent studies sort of thing. Not only does it encourage volunteerism without requiring it for those who are unwilling (they can take other courses), but it also would allow them to pick their own things to volunteer with.

I believe one sister worked with homeless shelters, and I don't remember what the other did. I have a younger friend who did a project (I forget what the title was) where he created backpacks full of necessary supplies for homeless teens down in San Diego. I think he was even up for an award somewhere for it. It was a tremendous project that he was able to get others involved in.

So.. there's my .02.

Guess I had more to say than I thought I did.

[Alex]

This story was prompted by a bit of text written on the Change.gov web site. Originally it said:

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.Being familliar with Obama's proposals I would have read this to be talking about not a universal requirement but a requirement for receiving college tuition assistance. But it was defnitely poorly written.

That text has seen been changed to read (and clarify the intent):

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.I would be opposed to any mandatory service requirement for adults, but that is not what is being proposed. Rather the government saying "You do X we'll reward you with Y."

While I would have some big questions about the operation of such a thing (my high school had a service program in high school for credit and let's just say that the result was a lot of kids doing "service" that didn't help anybody, didn't require any effort, and looked good enough on paper to get some high school credit) I wouldn't be as strongly opposed (and might support depending on the extact program.

Other questions:
- The proposal of $4000 for 100 hours is $40/hour and strikes me as an insane rate of return meaning that in most situations the "volunteers" will be getting higher tax free pay than the people who do the same tasks as their job. It should probably be raised to at least 200 hours (still less than 4 hours/week).
- This seems somewhat regressive. Even with $4000 assistance the worst off students will already be taking full class loads plus real paying jobs. Sure there's still a few stray hours in a week but it is another burden.
- If use is widespread, how does it not just cause further tuition inflation.
- Flooding the market in college towns will push regular employees out of jobs that will then be filled by government paid "volunteers."

My high school experience with such programs doesn't give me much confidence in the real value of including such requirements in middle and high school curriculums but I don't really have a problem with them trying.

[tracilicious]

As co-founder of a community organization, I wouldn't have any problem filling that requirement. But if I weren't then it would be really tough. As it is now I have to take most of my classes online because I don't have reliable childcare. If the only way to get aid were to do 100 hours of community service and I wasn't involved in my org (where I put many hours in at home in program development), then I'd be pretty screwed.

But it sounds like as it's proposed now I would only miss out on a tax credit. If student loans and grants were still in place I'd be ok. If it does end up being required for all aid, then I would worry about adults re-entering college being overly strained.

I'm for school kids doing community service. Get them involved in the community at an early age and maybe it will stick. I'd say that what their parents do will have much more of an impact then what they are required to do in school.

[sleepyjeff]

Great, seems like just another way for colleges to raise their rates again.

When are we going to figure out that the more assistance we give out to offset the high cost of college the more college is going to cost?

Drop all of the assistance and force colleges to truly compete in a market like atmosphere........that's what will make college affordable again.

Never going to happen though......the politicians like making people dance....it amuses them I suppose:mad:

[tracilicious]

Drop all assistance? Jesus, no. My loans and grants pay for all my tuition and books and then extra that helps me live while I'm in school. There isn't a tuition rate that would be affordable to me right now. Thank god for assistance programs!!!!

[BDBopper]

First of all thanks for the clarification Alex. I appreciate it. I wanted to start a dialogue as it evolves.

I think it is time to think about about ways to make college more affordable other than Government solutions. The fat needs to be cut. If colleges keep raising the costs less and less people will go on to college and the quality of life in our country will go down. If the government steps in to help the colleges are only going to raise the costs. It seems like we're between a rock and a hard place.

Or maybe I am thinking the wrong way about this. Maybe there are people out there that are not really fit or ready for college and the higher costs will keep them away. I don't know.

[flippyshark]

I'd certainly prefer the version where costs go down, as opposed to a kluge-y system of tax breaks and so on. But I have absolutely no faith in the unregulated free market concept. It seems to my admittedly naive mind that we've already tried that, and it hasn't worked. I'm amenable to evidence on that one. But, ultimately, I feel like whether it's trickle down or bottom up, it doesn't get to where I am, or anywhere near what I can afford. (How many jobs am I supposed to have? I've got between three and five of 'em much of the time.)

[sleepyjeff]

Drop all assistance? Jesus, no. My loans and grants pay for all my tuition and books and then extra that helps me live while I'm in school. There isn't a tuition rate that would be affordable to me right now. Thank god for assistance programs!!!!

I would think tuition rates would drop like a rock if no "free" money were available to these colleges.


But I have absolutely no faith in the unregulated free market concept. It seems to my admittedly naive mind that we've already tried that, and it hasn't worked.

When have we tried it?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Sorry sleepy, but right now, the words "free market" aren't exactly friendly ones. Yeah, I know the econ crisis is a different story from college tuition rates, but still.

Ok, if we're talking about trading public service for tuition dollars, meh. I was thinking more of an actually unpaid service to the community. Paying students is whole other thing and shouldn't bear the words "community service".

[BarTopDancer]

California colleges are subsidized by the state for residents. When Davis cut the budget for the community college system tuition went up. Yes, it was still cheaper than a 4-year school but tuition still jumped 50%. When Schwarzenegger funded the schools again tuition dropped. Other states have "pre-pay" programs where you can pay current rates for tuition when a child is born.

Many financial aid programs are available besides loans. I have an issue attaching required community service on student loans, since they have to be repaid. I don't have an issue attaching community service requirements to Pell or other grants. However, these grants have to be repaid if the student doesn't complete the semester.

After my really long experience, and subsequent intimate knowledge of financial aid systems, the entire program needs to be redone.

[sleepyjeff]

Sorry sleepy, but right now, the words "free market" aren't exactly friendly ones. Yeah, I know the econ crisis is a different story from college tuition rates, but still.



Actually, the econ crisis has government intervention to blame....a free market would have self corrected before it got so bad.

Funny you should mention that though.....part of the reason College tuition is so high is students are encouraged to amass huge amounts of debt and to not really worry about price tags.

As we have clearly seen in the health care industry, when consumers are not confronted with the full costs of things.....things cost a lot more than they should.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Actually, the econ crisis has government intervention to blame....a free market would have self corrected before it got so bad.My last derail in this thread. Alan Greenspan disagrees with you. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

[BarTopDancer]

Funny you should mention that though.....part of the reason College tuition is so high is students are encouraged to amass huge amounts of debt and to not really worry about price tags.

I completely disagree. I don't know when you last attempted to secure student loans, but students are made completely aware exactly how much they are taking out and how much it will be to repay. You cannot get your loans without going through this class and acknowledging that you understand.

Credit card companies are guiltier of encouraging students to amass huge amounts of debt and not worrying about their final payoff amounts.

[sleepyjeff]

My last derail in this thread. Alan Greenspan disagrees with you. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

Fair enough, however I've always been lukewarm to the former Fed Chairman and don't consider him exactly an unconcerned observer in all of this.

My views are more in line with this guy:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams110508.php3



You can decide whether we have in an unregulated laissez-faire economy. There are 15 cabinet departments, nine of which control various aspects of the U.S. economy. They are the Departments of: Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, Health and Human Services, Education, Energy, Labor, Agriculture, Commerce, and Interior. In addition, there is the alphabet soup cluster of federal agencies such as: the IRS, the FRB and FDIC, the EPA, FDA, SEC, CFTC, NLRB, FTC, FCC, FERC, FEMA, FAA, CAA, INS, OHSA, CPSC, NHTSA, EEOC, BATF, DEA, NIH, and NASA.


Here's my question to you: Can one be sane and at the same time hold that ours is an unregulated laissez-faire economy? Better yet, tell me what a businessman, or for that matter you, can do that does not involve some kind of government regulation. A businessman must seek government approval for the minutest detail of his operation or face the wrath of some government agency, whether it's at the federal, state or local level. Just about everything we buy or use has some kind of government dictate involved whether it's package labeling, how many gallons of water to flush toilets or what pharmaceuticals can be prescribed. You say, "Williams, there's a reason for this government control." Yes, there's a reason for everything but that does not change the fact that there is massive government control over our economy.


When businesses make unwise decisions that lead to bankruptcy, their assets are sold off to someone else who might be able to put them to wiser use. Government bailouts give businesses a reprieve that the market wouldn't give them. Bailouts have at least two effects. They permit continued unwise use of resources and it creates what economists call moral hazard, the expectation of future bailouts and others hopping on the bailout wagon.


The blame for our current financial mess rests with government, with the major player being the Federal Reserve Board keeping interest rates artificially low and the congressional and White House market interference in the name of more home ownership. In the clamor for more regulation over our financial institutions, has anybody bothered to ask whether people in government know what they're doing?

[sleepyjeff]

I completely disagree. I don't know when you last attempted to secure student loans, but students are made completely aware exactly how much they are taking out and how much it will be to repay. You cannot get your loans without going through this class and acknowledging that you understand.

Credit card companies are guiltier of encouraging students to amass huge amounts of debt and not worrying about their final payoff amounts.

If you say so...

I had a $3,000 scholarship....Paid cash for the rest and graduated with no loans to repay:)

[BarTopDancer]

If you say so...

I had a $3,000 scholarship....Paid cash for the rest and graduated with no loans to repay:)

Good for you. Costs have increased and not all of us are as fortunate as you to be able to pull that off.

But I directly disputed your claim that students are encouraged to take on huge debt without understanding what they were taking on. :) I think since you didn't need to take out loans it appears you don't have first hand expereince, recent or otherwise to base your statements on...

[sleepyjeff]

But I directly disputed your claim that students are encouraged to take on huge debt without understanding what they were taking on. :) I think since you didn't need to take out loans it appears you don't have first hand expereince, recent or otherwise to base your statements on...

Nope, no first hand experience in that regard. Anecdotally, I must defer to you on this one:)

[tracilicious]

I would think tuition rates would drop like a rock if no "free" money were available to these colleges.



*No* amount of tuition is affordable to me right now. In fact, a significant portion of my income comes from grants and loans. As a single mom, it's really the only choice I have if I want to finish school. Yes, after I'm done with my masters I will have a sh!tload of debt, but higher income with which to pay it. Without it, yes I'm debt free, but my income potential (not to mention job satisfaction) is severely limited.

[sleepyjeff]

*No* amount of tuition is affordable to me right now. In fact, a significant portion of my income comes from grants and loans. As a single mom, it's really the only choice I have if I want to finish school. Yes, after I'm done with my masters I will have a sh!tload of debt, but higher income with which to pay it. Without it, yes I'm debt free, but my income potential (not to mention job satisfaction) is severely limited.

Not to worry....my ideal world is not about to be implemented by anyone anytime soon;)

[JWBear]

Not to worry....my ideal world is not about to be implemented by anyone anytime soon;)

Don't feel bad, neither is mine...

[sleepyjeff]

Don't feel bad, neither is mine...

Despite how opposed we are on so many things I think you'd like my ideal world.

[JWBear]

Despite how opposed we are on so many things I think you'd like my ideal world.

Just as you might like mine.

[sleepyjeff]

Just as you might like mine.

I just may:)

[Alex]

My ideal world is made of marshmallows. The kind used in Lucky Charms cereal (since those taste better than real marshmallows). Also, crying over spilt milk is understandable since it is a major ecological catastrophe (disolving the world and all that).

And Peanut Butter Cap'n Crunch is a health food that fulfills all dietary needs without slicing the roof of your mouth all to hell.

[JWBear]

My ideal world is made of marshmallows. The kind used in Lucky Charms cereal (since those taste better than real marshmallows). Also, crying over spilt milk is understandable since it is a major ecological catastrophe (disolving the world and all that).

And Peanut Butter Cap'n Crunch is a health food that fulfills all dietary needs without slicing the roof of your mouth all to hell.

Ok... Who is this person, and what have they done with the real Alex?