Mumbai under siege

[Gn2Dlnd]

Just before I left my computer to head to the Park, I clicked on CNN - I wish I hadn't. At least now I understand Jen's tweets.

Scores die in India; Westerners targeted (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/india.attacks/index.html)

Mumbai rocked by deadly attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7751160.stm)

I feel ill.

[innerSpaceman]

Remind me to cancel The World from my travel plans.

[Snowflake]

OMG, just awful.

[Sohrshah]

The head of the city's anti-terrorist force was killed. Many Westenrers are being held in the two hotels, even still.

Something to be noted, in my opinion. How much it feel to be a European, NOT an American or Brit, and targeted simply because you look like an American solely based on the color of your skin, or the style of your clothes?

Why can't humans get over their petty hate?

*sigh*

[Snowflake]

heh, Sorshah, I thought I just posted your post thanks to the avatar!

[Ghoulish Delight]

Something to be noted, in my opinion. How much it feel to be a European, NOT an American or Brit, and targeted simply because you look like an American solely based on the color of your skin, or the style of your clothes?

There were reports that they were checking people's passports to identify Americans.

This does present whole new theming opportunities for NA's New Year party.

[JWBear]

There were reports that they were checking people's passports to identify Americans.

This does present whole new theming opportunities for NA's New Year party.

People are dead. I don't see the humor.

[innerSpaceman]

To be fair, some people did not see the humor in the choice of NYE party theme to begin with (aka found it racially insulting), so let's please recognize that standards of humor differ.

Black humor, btw, is a classic form thereof.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Terrible, terrible. How sad for all of those families affected. I wish that people wouldn't so often see things in black and white. Such violent differences over ethnicity or religion or culture just don't make any sense to me.

Also, I'd hoped the election had changed some perceptions of the US - at least, shown that we aren't all behind the recent administration. But it's bigger than that - it was foolish of me to think it would change.

To weight in on the matter of humor... people deal with tragedy and adversity in different ways.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Also, I'd hoped the election had changed some perceptions of the US - at least, shown that we aren't all behind the recent administration. But it's bigger than that - it was foolish of me to think it would change.It will change perceptions among reasonable, thinking people. It will help reduce the propagandist ammunition that's used to turn reasonable, thinking people into terrorists going forward. Unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done for anyone who's already irrational and capable of senseless killings for ideological reasons.

[Moonliner]

Kind of makes you think about the Penn Station threats that came out today.

I wonder if a similar massacre in New York, DC or LA will present you even more party ideas.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

It just goes to show the amount of nutjobs out there who have nothing better to do than screw with others. There are better ways of changing the world than being total dicks...

[Not Afraid]

To be fair, some people did not see the humor in the choice of NYE party theme to begin with (aka found it racially insulting), so let's please recognize that standards of humor differ.


HUH?

[€uroMeinke]

Kind of makes you think about the Penn Station threats that came out today.

I wonder if a similar massacre in New York, DC or LA will present you even more party ideas.


Toten Tanz perhaps?

[Not Afraid]

Maybe we should've taken the LoT Goes To Hell idea seriously.

Remind me not to throw a Cinco de Mayo or St. Patrick's Day party, K?

[innerSpaceman]

My thoughts exactly. I personally don't see anything insulting about having a "foreign culture" themed event. But some person(s) who post here expressed a different view, and it opened my eyes to another line of thinking about the concept.

I found the analogy appropriate to whether or not mass massacre in India could be the subject of humor. All a matter of different perspectives, none of them necessarily "wrong."



(Mass Massacre Madness, though ... definitely wrong.) :(

[Disneyphile]

This whole thing is just sad. I really love India, and hope to visit there someday. I just wish we could read into the minds of extremists and figure out why they're so angry and vengeful.

And on a weird related note.... I guess I won't be playing Kidnap on Facebook for awhile.... my latest hideout is Mumbai, and it's just way too wrong to send people notifications that I've napped them to Mumbai. :eek:

[JWBear]

For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with the Bollywood theme; I think it's way cool. I also have no problem with staying with that theme after yesterday's events. What I objected to was GD's suggestion that we use this tragedy as a source of further merriment; something I found tasteless and insensitive.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, whether I would make a joke about it or not ..... any big event in India is going to make me think of the Bollywood Party. I doubt I'm the only one on the LoT who'd make such a connection at the start of the holiday season that will end spectacularly with Bollywood!


Depending on the "other item" intersecting with Bollywood, questionable taste might ensue. But let's face it, when has big news out of India ever been good?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Maybe we should've taken the LoT Goes To Hell idea seriously.

Remind me not to throw a Cinco de Mayo or St. Patrick's Day party, K?

I don't know who iSm is talking about. And personally, I really have appreciation and respect for Indian art, music, food, culture...

I've heard more often, recently, than I've ever heard about an educational push for the concept of cultural appropriation. It was a discussion that fascinated me because I'd never considered it before, and it seemed that many people felt very strongly about it. Their perspective seems to be centered in the idea that if you take the culture out of context, you lose the meaning, you belittle and ignore the history or present-day situation.

But, then, America is made up entirely of appropriation. Because it's made up of cultures that are so mixed together that it isn't surprising that one person sees another person's interesting art and builds on it. So what crosses the line between appreciation and appropriation? I'm still not fully clear on it. But I will admit that both their argument and the pending party came to mind while watching Slumdog Millionaire recently. I have to admit that I have come to appreciate the culture without a full understanding of the country itself. But that's just me, and it doesn't make me feel bad about the party, and it doesn't make me want to not enjoy the food and culture. It just makes me, personally, want to understand more about the history and current events.

[innerSpaceman]

It's a party! I think the crossing line is pretty far out there.


But here's the example the mystery person used that got me to thinking.


Japanese party. Kimonos, Geisha costumes, paper lanterns. Charming, yes? Many guests used glue or something to slant their eyes! Um, wait a minute ... somehow less charming to me, and more mocking. But where is that line, and isn't it different for everybody?

[€uroMeinke]

I think the line is all about intent - are you celebrating, or are you mocking? - culturwise anyway

Black humor is a whole other thing and I think by definition intentional (or at least potentially) offensive. Time helps soften the blow, would anyone blink at having a mock guillotine at a Bastille Day party?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Yes, exactly, I think the line differs from person to person. And I have no problem with the party - I just wanted to loop in the discussion I had on my other board to try to give some perspective to the situation, as to why someone would feel that way.

The Geisha argument is a staple of the anti-cultural-appropriation movement, I think. The first argument I witnessed was started over a pair of Ed Hardy boots with Geisha on them. Several people were strongly, adamantly opposed to them. I just thought they were pretty. We were much at odds - demonstrating exactly that the line is different for everyone.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I think the line is all about intent - are you celebrating, or are you mocking?

The line for me is all about intent, anyway. You've captured my feelings on it very well. But I think that line is different for some people... my acquaintances who started the argument feel very strongly that ANY wearing/using/decorating with another culture is appropriation and harmful to the culture in question. I don't agree.

[Prudence]

I think that Americans have a history of "appropriating" aspects of various cultures with no intent to honor or appreciate that culture - sort of a manifest destiny of cultural attributes. As a result, other cultures aren't so likely to take our themed parties as a bumbling sort of respect, but rather a combination of zoo visit and "playing native."

Avoiding such theming, on the other hand, might lead back to isolationism. Should I not eat at "ethnic" restaurants because to me the food is "neat-o!" and not routine comfort food my mom used to make? Should I not see foreign language films because I can't appreciate them the same way a native speaker would?

Of course not. The best I can do is try to express that I'm following these experiences because I'm genuinely interested in something that I find valuable and worthwhile, and while I'll never have a complete contextual understanding of what it means to be someone I'm not, by attempting to emulate their activities perhaps I will have a better appreciation for the contributions of others - both historic and contemporary.

[€uroMeinke]

The line for me is all about intent, anyway. You've captured my feelings on it very well. But I think that line is different for some people... my acquaintances who started the argument feel very strongly that ANY wearing/using/decorating with another culture is appropriation and harmful to the culture in question. I don't agree.

Would that mean I'd be forced to live out my life in Lederhosen? Is anything outside your own "Cultural Dress" not appropriated from something else?

I understand the reasoning somewhat - but I still think its wrong as this stuff is so transient anyway even the "traditions."

[LSPoorEeyorick]

That was my exact position in that argument, actually. I even used the word "Lederhosen," since the largest portion of my Heinz 57 European background is German. I also understand the reasoning (and try to follow a similar personal pattern as Pru mentioned) but, as always, the extremists baffle me.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, we all know how much I love dress-up. If that's nasty appropriation for the length of a genial party ... then fvck 'em! Get a grip.


However .... the slant-eye thing got to me - because I think my uber-pale vampire complexion is going to look stupid in Indian Garb, and I was actually thinking of darkening my skin with tanning agents for Bollywood night. Uh-oh. Is this a step too far in the wrong direction?

To me it's all about fun and fashion play. But I've never been accused of being the most racially sensitive person. ;)



Anyway, bring on the guillotine, yes. But hold the burning Taj Mahal for at least a few years.

[Not Afraid]

If our Bollywood party isn't a celebration and appreciation of Bollywood culture, I don't know what is. How many of you have seen a popular Bollywood film (or 10)? How many of you regularly listen to Bollywood soundtracks, Najma, Bally Sagoo, Asha Bohsley, or even Ravi Shankar. I would guesss that the closest most people come to Ravi Shankar is Nora Jones. I would suspect that many have eaten some sort of Indian food, but have you eaten Dhosa for breakfast? (Not that I'm promising anything.)

The world is a large, varried and wonderful place. There are many takes on what's right, what's wrong, were you go after you die, what is appropriate in love and lust, how you celebrate holidays - why wouldn't ANYONE want to learn about, experience or celebrate these differences?

EVERY culture has it's extremists, those who feel that hate is the way to lead your life. No matter what culture they are attached to, I find them all very sad. But, I will never throw out the wonderful parts of a culture because of the extremists. That would only make me one of them.

This NYE, we will be celebrating the joy and color that is Bollywood and, by extention, the beauty, art, culture and cuisine of one of the most fascinating countries in the world. If someone finds this racist, then feel free to stay at home and comsume Wonder Bread and Tang.

[€uroMeinke]

okay so these concepts of cultural appropriation have got me wondering about things like Contemporary Japanese Pop Culture - is it okay to appropriate that, since it was already appropriated from contemporary American Culture? Or is it doubly wrong for being multi-appropriated?

[Not Afraid]

Thanks IT! No more chocolate in my peanut butter! No more sharing of ideas, of tastes, of music. The Beatles should have NEVER gone to India, Christopher Columbus should have NEVER gotten on the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria (which ship was he actually on anyways?). My Mayflower relatives should have just sucked it up and dealt with their unhappiness. And, damnit, keep your Mexican food in MEXICO. Same goes for you, Sushi. Oh, and everyone who lives in North America must immediately revert to the ways of the American Indian. Blue Corn anyone? Of, is that inappropriate because I have no Native American blood in me - only Native American blood on my hands.

:throws up blood hands in disbelief:

[€uroMeinke]

Pardon me, while I annex your Sudetenland

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Heh, the appropriation of American culture by Japanese was my other argument tactic! Our brains are on the same wavelength.

I don't know who the mystery person is (and I feel a little bad that we're talking about him/her without him/her choosing to bring this up themselves) so I don't know their personal argument. But I do know my sociopolitical activist acquaintances' arguments. This isn't my POV, but I do find it interesting to hear it.

I don't think that the reasonable, non-extremist anti-appropriation folks are suggesting wonder bread and tang. I think they're suggesting that we should consider and respect the origin of the cultures we're exploring, as well as, in the case of India or other third-world countries, to strive to understand the difficult conditions that the people currently live in. I don't think that's a bad thing to suggest, nor do I think you're not doing it.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Also, I don't think anyone here is actually arguing the extremist anti-appropriation position. I've said - here and elsewhere - that I think it's ridiculous.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

(And, yes, I have seen Bollywood films, and listened to Bollywood music, appreciated Indian art, and eaten all different kinds of Indian food from different regions. No one here is saying anyone shouldn't!)

[€uroMeinke]

This should really be a discussion over Bhura Pegs, but the "third world" angle is interesting in light of the recent security briefing that predicts we will be loosing our unilateral super power status, and be forced to share with India and China. With Bollywood already overtaking Hollywood in terms of both revenue and worldwide viewership, perhaps we are just welcoming our new cultural overlords (Baz Luhrman Moulin Rouge anyone?)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

First of all, my tweets had nothing to do with Mumbai. I'm reading "Hot Flat and Crowded" and it's getting me so angry at how stupid we've been on energy policy.

This Mumbai thing is horrible.




In response to iSm's question, um, dude, you were seriously thinking of darkening your skin? :eek: There's a huge difference between wearing an outfit and changing your genetic appearance, aka slanted eyes etc. That's a pretty obvious line there.

I love that you guys are all counter-arguing someone who didn't even post the original argument. If the mystery persons iSm mentioned actually wish to discuss it then I'll discuss it, but until then, it's a bit of a straw man, isn't it?

[€uroMeinke]

I find it a great jumping off point for a number of cultural musings - and so I shall continue with more of mine - regarding Bollywood:

Watching a number of Bollywood films recently, I enjoying seeing the blending of cultures in action. Contemporary Bollywood films seem to borrow a lot from American Hip Hop culture, in music, dance, and language. It's always great to hear a string of Hindi followed by a "He's some Dude." Culture evolves and Bollywood is one of those places I love watching the evolution taking place.

[Not Afraid]

I don't think that the reasonable, non-extremist anti-appropriation folks are suggesting wonder bread and tang. I think they're suggesting that we should consider and respect the origin of the cultures we're exploring, as well as, in the case of India or other third-world countries, to strive to understand the difficult conditions that the people currently live in. I don't think that's a bad thing to suggest, nor do I think you're not doing it.

I agree about the understanding part. I spent a good part of my college years studying art within its cultural context. I don't believe that you can truly understand art without understanding it's cultural context. I DO believe you can appreciate art sans cultural context, but you can lose the meaning. However, I can also argue the other side of that by saying that, once a piece of art is complete, it solely up to the viewer to bring their own ideas and experiences to the viewing and the relationship is really only between the viewer and the piece.

Also, I don't think anyone here is actually arguing the extremist anti-appropriation position. I've said - here and elsewhere - that I think it's ridiculous.

No, not directly - or at least not the person who ISM is alluding to.

(And, yes, I have seen Bollywood films, and listened to Bollywood music, appreciated Indian art, and eaten all different kinds of Indian food from different regions. No one here is saying anyone shouldn't!)

(I know - but I was speaking to the more "General You" segment.)

[Not Afraid]

To be fair, some people did not see the humor in the choice of NYE party theme to begin with (aka found it racially insulting), so let's please recognize that standards of humor differ.


Now that I've had an actual conversation with the person who actually said what ISM is alluding to, I have a greater understanding of what actually went down (which was a bit different than what was stated here).

However, I do always enjoy a good discussion about culture, Raita, Salsa, and Wonder Bread. Not to mention, an opportunity to get surly early in the morning. ;)

[Gn2Dlnd]

However, I do always enjoy a good discussion about culture, Raita, Salsa, and Wonder Bread. Not to mention, an opportunity to get surly early in the morning. ;)


Surly to bed, surly to rise.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, sorry I brought it up, but that conversation with the other person got me to thinking - and fit the wild-tangent subject matter of this thread. LSPE had "others" sparking her thoughts, too. It's just that we don't know them.

I didn't want to pass those thoughts off as my own, since they are not. But, yeah, I handled it hamhandedly as usual. Though I'm not sure how I could have pretended they were outside of our acquaintance yet commenting on aspects of the Bollywood party.



In any event, I'm still unclear about the racial stereotyping line. I try to get a tan most summers, sometimes even augmenting that effort with artificial agents! Why, then, should I hold back from that when it would accentuate a costume? Certainly, if I were going "Bollywood" for Halloween, I wouldn't hesitate to darken my skin. But for a New Years party costume ... is that kind of thing in poor taste? If so, why?


Oh, my giant ethical dillema!

[Not Afraid]

Well, NYE is not necessarily a "costume" party (as opposed to Halloween which is most certainly costume oriented). You can and may decide to dress along with the theme, but it certainly is not a requirement - just something that would be fun if you so choose. Personally, I've always wanted several type of Indian clothing and have now given myself a valid excuse to buy them. But, me wanting space print pajamas is how we ended up with a space theme last year.

[€uroMeinke]

I don't know - the tan thing just strikes me as goofy. I mean the pallet of "Indian" skin tones is nearly as broad as our own and certainly to be overshadowed compared to the variety and vibrancy of fabrics that might be employed. Of course contemporary Bollywood aren't stuck in India anymore. The last one we saw was set in Australia.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Certainly, if I were going "Bollywood" for Halloween, I wouldn't hesitate to darken my skin. Again, I'm kinda surprised by this. If you want to go as a "Bollywood star" you dress the part, but to actually darken your skin and go as an "Indian person", that's a whole other story.

[CoasterMatt]

Somebody in this thread mentioned something about "crossing a line", and my ears started ringing :)

I'm not a particular fan of Bollywood, but a Bollywood themed party sounds like fun times - maybe you guys could do some kind of fundraising for victims of the Mumbai terror attacks?

[Stan4dSteph]

...maybe you guys could do some kind of fundraising for victims of the Mumbai terror attacks?I was thinking the same thing. You could collect and donate to the International Red Cross (http://www.icrc.org/eng).

[bewitched]

...my acquaintances who started the argument feel very strongly that ANY wearing/using/decorating with another culture is appropriation and harmful to the culture in question. I don't agree.

Just curious as to whether or not those acquaintances celebrated Thanksgiving yesterday? Did they have pumpkins or dried corn decorating the tables? Did they eat corn, pumpkin, turkey, leeks? I mean, the colonists joined with the Wampanoag Indians in a feast giving thanks for a bountiful harvest-- something Indian cultures were doing for centuries before the English arrived.

I just find it interesting that "offense" is reduced when something has become more commonplace and has "history" behind it, even when it continues to employ "offensive" elements (i.e. appropriating aspects of another culture).

Oh, and I'm 1/4 Cherokee (my grandmother was full blooded). I'm not offended...except by all of the people who take offense in my ancestor's "name"-- even when the offended party remains, in fact, unoffended. (And yeah, I know...some Indian groups get offended by Thanksgiving. Whatever.)

Did that make sense?



Oh, and everyone who lives in North America must immediately revert to the ways of the American Indian. Blue Corn anyone? Of, is that inappropriate because I have no Native American blood in me - only Native American blood on my hands.

:throws up blood hands in disbelief:

I will don my feathered headdress and commence a war dance immediately.




There...now you all can say, "I'm friends with an Indian/Native American (whichever one floats your boat)..." ;)

[Not Afraid]

However .... the slant-eye thing got to me - because I think my uber-pale vampire complexion is going to look stupid in Indian Garb, and I was actually thinking of darkening my skin with tanning agents for Bollywood night. Uh-oh. Is this a step too far in the wrong direction?


I find it interesting that you would consider doing that for this event which is not a "costume party" yet, on Halloween you dressed as Jimi Hendrix and didn't darken your skin.


Could it be that you're just trying to stir the proverbial pot? Couldn't be!

[€uroMeinke]

I was going to suggest some shoe black so ISM could be culturally appropriate as Al Jolson goes to India to make a Bombay Talkie

[innerSpaceman]

Stir the pot, moi? :eek:

No, I was simply going to try and get as tan as I would normally do during the summer. But the slant-eyes thing gave me pause.

And so I was merely wondering if a thing I do for purely cosmetic purposes in summertime is inappropriate if I do the exact same thing for the cosmetic purposes of a costume.



I had never before considered the "mockery" aspect of costumes or events that relate to a real culture. I don't happen to think there is any on my part, but it did lead to a reexamination of ideas. Stirring my own pot, so to speak.

[Morrigoon]

I don't think that artificial tanning agents carry the same cultural luggage that "blackface" does. I mean, when you look into the history, part of the reason it's offensive is because of its connection to the Minstrel Shows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show), and how they often deliberately belittled or lampooned black people, creating stereotypes which would ultimately contribute to the continued oppression of African Americans into the late 20th century.

(Hot damn! never thought I'd actually be able to use something learned in my Race, Class and Gender in American Film class!)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

And so I was merely wondering if a thing I do for purely cosmetic purposes in summertime is inappropriate if I do the exact same thing for the cosmetic purposes of a costume.Seems blatantly obvious to me that impersonating another race is insulting, no matter whether it's Halloween or a stage show or what. Notice I didn't say culture, I said race. Distinct line there.

[Gn2Dlnd]

Oh wait, the NYE party is red-dot Indian, not woo-woo Indian? Now I have to go exchange my headdress.

[innerSpaceman]

Seems blatantly obvious to me that impersonating another race is insulting, no matter whether it's Halloween or a stage show or what. Notice I didn't say culture, I said race. Distinct line there.

So, if I would have done black-face for my Jimi Hendrix halloween costume, that would have been insulting? Or would it have been ok because I was impersonating a particular black man?


The line gets wigglier all the time.

[€uroMeinke]

Oh wait, the NYE party is red-dot Indian, not woo-woo Indian? Now I have to go exchange my headdress.


No the theme is "Bollywood" - I wouldn't be surprised if there's a Bollywood Western out there - feel free to woop it up

[€uroMeinke]

So, if I would have done black-face for my Jimi Hendrix halloween costume, that would have been insulting? Or would it have been ok because I was impersonating a particular black man?


The line gets wigglier all the time.

If it were black face like Al Jolson - probably

[Cadaverous Pallor]

So, if I would have done black-face for my Jimi Hendrix halloween costume, that would have been insulting? Or would it have been ok because I was impersonating a particular black man?


The line gets wigglier all the time.It doesn't get wigglier at all, you just think it does. It would have been pretty horrifying had you turned up in blackface. Seriously, does it take convincing to get you to understand why this is insulting no matter the context?

[innerSpaceman]

No, there's no convincing me that showing up in blackface for a Jimi Hendrix costume wouldn't have been completely appropriate ... and the only reason I didn't do it was because I was too lazy to deal with a full face of make-up. I don't see anything wrong with that. Ghost Hendrix was a lazyism.


Sorry, we just have completely different opinions on this.

I'm a little fuzzier (and thus could be convinced) about Bollywood skin tone ... but I'm leaning toward thinking my normal summer tan would be more appropriate for Indian Garb. I'm not saying I'll bother, but I can't imagine that something I would do anyway to look better in July would be somehow awful if I did it to look better on New Year's Eve.



I've never slanted my eyes to look more Asian for any occasion, so it's a good thing we're not having a Japanese Tea. ;)

[Not Afraid]

J Pop night is next year.

I think the idea for coming to NYE with darkened skin is absolutely silly.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, I don't have time to sit out in the sun for a few hours each weekend, so it won't be happening.


But it's one way to make lemonade out of sunny and 80 thru the Christmas season.

[Not Afraid]

The seige is over - thank god! I will be interesting to see if it is ever revealed who was behind this.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Indian officials were quick to blame "outside foces" (i.e., Pakistan), while the last report I saw pointed to homegrown.

[Not Afraid]

It's doesn't please me that Indian officials are pointing at Pakistan. There is already enough tension there to trigger more violence. The Al Quida connections doesn't seem to be very strong either, but it's being thrown out there as a possibility. The focus of the attacks - on the places where the wealthy and affluent Indians and Foreigners - hang out is the most telling to me. I would suspect home grown as well.

Mumbai has grown so rapidly in the recent past. Financially, it is very strong and continues to be an up and coming world financial powerhouse. It is also home to some of the most horriffic slums - made more horriffic by their proximity to wealth. I don't doubt the strife that alone would cause.

Here's a May 07 National Geographic article (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/05/dharavi-mumbai-slum/jacobson-text) about one of the largest Bombay slums with some haunting pictures.

[Disneyphile]

I think the idea for coming to NYE with darkened skin is absolutely silly.Yeah, but it might help save people from being blinded during the traditional pants-drop. ;)

[bewitched]

Apparently the attackers were all young (20s). They also found lots of foreign currency (including American) and credit cards from major banks world wide.

I saw a clip today saying at least a couple of the attackers were taken alive. I don't think I'd want to be one of those guys in the coming weeks...



NYT op-ed, "What They Hate About Mumbai" (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/opinion/29mehta.html?em)...excellent piece on how openness, progressiveness and tolerance made the city a target.

[Alex]

If they don't know who did it, how would anybody know why?

[Ghoulish Delight]

And now it seems it was indeed a Pakistani group (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27940231/) that carried it out.

[Moonliner]

And they used Google Earth to plan it (http://www.pcworld.com/article/154684/google_earth_used_by_terrorists_in_india_attacks.h tml).

Anyone want to take bets on which Advanced Urban Combat Simulator they used for training? Microsoft or Sony?

[Alex]

I understand the 9/11 terrorists consulted a subway map to figure out how to get out to Logan Airport.

Which is why you can never find one when you need it.

[Morrigoon]

Here's a May 07 National Geographic article (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/05/dharavi-mumbai-slum/jacobson-text) about one of the largest Bombay slums with some haunting pictures.

Anybody raise an eyebrow at the image of them handling cowhides?

[Disneyphile]

Anybody raise an eyebrow at the image of them handling cowhides?If the ones handling cowhides are part of the 50% Muslim residents, then not at all.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Slumdog Millionaire is set in the slums of Mumbai. It hurt to see their conditions.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If the ones handling cowhides are part of the 50% Muslim residents, then not at all.Well, it is illegal to slaughter cows in most of India, though they are often shipped (illegally) into the few provinces where it is allowed.

[Morrigoon]

J Pop night is next year.


OMG, that's going to be fun.

[JWBear]

Taj Mahal Hotel's top floor before:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/59723192_be42bcb7c5.jpg?v=0

Taj Mahal Hotel's top floor after:
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00668/SNN0319A-682_668819a.jpg

[Morrigoon]

Oh it breaks my heart to see a beautiful space destroyed like that.

[Snowflake]

Oh it breaks my heart to see a beautiful space destroyed like that.

Well, they probably still have the cheap (labor) artisans who can redo the word carving. But, you're right, it's very sad to see.

[Morrigoon]

Though it does expose that those hallways used to be taller... before a/c was installed. That's kind of interesting.

[€uroMeinke]

Crimes against Architecture

[Not Afraid]

I've always dreamed of staying at the Taj - not that I could have ever afforded it -but it is sad to see parts of it destroyed.

[€uroMeinke]

Remember Disneyland after 9/11? This might be a great time to visit India.

[Not Afraid]

I'd LOVE to visit India.

[JWBear]

The famous Harbor Bar before (http://photowebusa.com/taj/taj-mahal-palace-and-tower/harbour-bar/index.html):

After:

http://im.sify.com/sifycmsimg/nov2008/News/14808559_1.jpg
http://im.sify.com/sifycmsimg/nov2008/News/14808561_2.jpg

[alphabassettgrrl]

I'd LOVE to visit India.

So would I.