The Jazz Kitchen Bill Cluster Fornication

[Kevy Baby]

I hate the fact that a major downer is being discussed in two threads that should otherwise be happy (and in the case of the MA thread - feisty for other reasons). So I have created a single clearing-house thread for this topic.

Aud called the Jazz kitchen and supposedly the overcharge will be fixed by Wed.As NM noted in one thread, this is simply in regards to the overcharge on EH's debit card - I am not getting anything back from Jazz Kitchen.
___________

Susan (and her feisty recovering pit-bull lawyer friend [Jan for those who know her]) stopped by JK last night spoke with Allan, the Manager. He reiterated something that was said on Sunday that I failed to mention. ALL of the individual bills had cash involved. NONE of the bills had tips included in the bill (automatic gratuity). So if no one left tips in the folders after they got change back, then your bill did not leave a tip. When some people on a bill pay by card and some by cash, this needs to be accounted for as everyone does things differently.

The waitress said that very little was left in the folders after she brought back the change after everyone left. If this is true (and she didn't strike me as the type to be fudging on this, but I could be wrong), then it appears that tips were not accounted for. My personal opinion is that this is the single largest contributor to the situation (though I could be wrong).

Also, in reviewing the credit card charges (which I did Sunday night), many of them included no tip or very little tip (for example, somebody had a $40 charge but only added a $2 tip). I assumed that in all of these cases, people had built in the tip in their total (I know I have done this in the past myself).

Also, Susan asked if we could get a copy of the total bill and the answer to that was no as once the "total" bill was split, it was gone.

This situation was a combination of screw ups, probably by both the restaurant and by us (and I place more blame on us whatever confusion the waitress had was caused by our splitting of the bill). I am not blaming anyone for this but at the same time, I hold every person who was at the restaurant that night (myself included) responsible.

The reason I made the decision to leave the $120 for her tip was that I personally counted all of the monies taken in from us (charges and cash) and it did not account for what should have been there (there was about $730 between the charges and the cash). That was the acid test that I ran at the beginning and no matter how many different ways we looked at it, that was the end result. Unless the waitress pocketed some of the cash (which I don't believe she did), she was going to get shafted - no tip. There was no way that I could have walked out of the restaurant with that on my conscience.

And I believe that I mentioned the quick math in another thread, but I will reiterate it here (numbers are rounded, so things may not add up neatly):
The original master bill was $796+ including tax but before discount
Assuming that the 10% discount was taken on everything This would leave a pre-tip total of approximately $720
The tip should be based on the PRE DISCOUNT total (though others may not agree), and I believe 20% is a fair amount (again, others may not agree). This means the tip should have been $160
The total collected was only $730. This amount I PERSONALLY confirmed.
I had $38 cash that someone handed me as left over from one of the bills. $160 - $38 = $122. There was also approximately $10 additional above the $720 needed, but I fudged a little to be sure.

[BarTopDancer]

Thanks for the explanation. How do we get you monies to make up for this.

Paypal? snailmail? Flying pigs?

[Chernabog]

OOOOOH flying pigs.

I like that idea. Kevy can we paypal you some money? Don't worry, the LoT has your back here. I feel terrible that this happened.

That being said, thanks for taking care of this and fronting us the money. How was Brennans throughout this whole ordeal? I mean, were they trying to help figure it out, or were they snotty?

[SzczerbiakManiac]

The tip should be based on the PRE DISCOUNT total (though others may not agree)Tips are always to be calculated on the full, non-discounted amount. It doesn't matter if the discount was 10% or 100%, one must figure tip as if there was no discount. The server's job is not any easier because one has a coupon or is boning the manager.

[wendybeth]

Agreed, SM- the tip is always based on the total ticket, pre-discount. I don't know about California, but up here in Wa tips are taxed on total food bill, before any discounts. Plus, it's the right thing to do. Didn't something like this happen during our ToJo's meet a few years back? I know we wound up paying substantially more, as did KB if memory serves, because people either didn't pay their entire amount or stiffed on tips.

[Chernabog]

Tips are always to be calculated on the full, non-discounted amount. It doesn't matter if the discount was 10% or 100%, one must figure tip as if there was no discount. The server's job is not any easier because one has a coupon or is boning the manager.

What about boning the server as a tip?

Wow.... this thread already devolved. ;)

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I respectfully disagree Chernabog. I was not there so I don't know what happened, but after reading the discussion, it seems tip calculations may have been a factor is this event.

[madmonkeygirl]

I know i always tip 20% and we did use cash for the tip i believe. This really stinks that this happened at all. As much as it would have been nicer to have individual bills/checks this turned out not so easy and nice for the large group we had.

Kevy thank you again for pitching in when you had to. Shame on everyone else and i do mean everyone else for not putting in what you should have.

Enough said.

[Snowflake]

I wasn't even there and I feel guilty and chip in!

[Chernabog]

I respectfully disagree Chernabog.

:confused: :confused:

Huh? With what?

[Moonliner]

:confused: :confused:

Huh? With what?

I'm just guessing but I think:

You joked that Kevy could offer sex to the waitress in lieu of a tip.

Szcze interpreted your comment as a suggestion to stiff the waitress on the tip.

[Strangler Lewis]

You joked that Kevy could offer sex to the waitress in lou of a tip.



Did you mean to say:

"Kevy could offer sex to the waitress in lieu of a tip."

Or

"Kevy could offer sex-to-the-waitress-in-loo as a tip."

[Disneyphile]

Shame on everyone else and i do mean everyone else for not putting in what you should have.Yes, shame on Ken and I for paying $28.50 on $22.50 on the original (not discounted) meal cost. It obviously was definitely NOT enough to cover the tax and tip on the discounted amount, which after that covered the tax, left her a $6 tip, more than 20%. We really should hang our heads in shame! :rolleyes:

It's always "everyone else" isn't it? Thanks for the finger wag there. It's good that someone is policing this and shaming "everyone else".

Kevy, Ken and I will happily chip in $5 each to help recover the shortage, even though we did cover our bill appropriately. We were part of the group that night, so it's the right thing to do, regardless of who's fault it is, since there is no way of determining that.

And, I'd like to make a recommendation in the future that only one check should be issued, and as it's passed around, everyone needs to cross-off what they ordered while adding their payment and writing down that amount on the bottom (including the tax and tip contributed) next to initials. Round up to the nearest dollar on each item, and from there, it's simple 1st grade math. By the time it makes it back around the table, everything should be covered with a nice tip, and it's also a good way to catch any errors. I've done that many times in other group situations, and there's never a problem with coming up short, and the server always ends up with at least 20% if not more.

[Capt Jack]

as sad as I am that I missed this, Im actually simultaneously glad I did

[Strangler Lewis]

If you guys would like to cover my shortfall from being screwed by large parties during my year as a waiter, I'm open to it.

Also from my high school year as a $2.65 hour yogurt slinger in the days before the tip jar was invented.

[Snowflake]

If you guys would like to cover my shortfall from being screwed by large parties during my year as a waiter, I'm open to it.

Also from my high school year as a $2.65 hour yogurt slinger in the days before the tip jar was invented.

A question, Strangler. Just how, exactly, do you sling yogurt?

[Moonliner]

Did you mean to say:

"Kevy could offer sex to the waitress in lieu of a tip."

Or

"Kevy could offer sex-to-the-waitress-in-loo as a tip."

Look I think I'm doing DAMN good to post a comment about Kevy, a waitress and sex without sneaking in any type of snide comments. So Don't give me any ****. :p

[cirquelover]

A question, Strangler. Just how, exactly, do you sling yogurt?


Are you sure you want to know the answer to that question ;)

[Kevy Baby]

Wow.... this thread already devolved. ;)As well it should ;)
___________________________

This whole situation is tough for me. Honestly, I doubt that anyone really should have to send me money as I doubt that anyone did anything egregious. You are all my friends (even Moonie as he has my back on possible solutions ;) ) and I am uncomfortable asking you for money.

And to answer Wendy's query: yes, this has happened before. More than once. But this is by far the worst incident.

[BarTopDancer]

Well asking for it or not, people will be sending it because regardless of how it came about you shouldn't have had to do it (this time or any other time). $5 each should make up for this.

[wendybeth]

I really don't think anyone intentionally did anything bad- I just think the way they divided up the tickets was screwy and it left the door open for people to make mistakes (including the restaurant). Still, kudos to KB for keeping the Swank and making sure the server was properly tipped. I'd like to chip in as well, because that was a budget busting mistake and KB should not have to take the brunt of it.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

What about boning the server as a tip?

Wow.... this thread already devolved. ;)I respectfully disagree Chernabog. I was not there so I don't know what happened, but after reading the discussion, it seems tip calculations may have been a factor is this event.Huh? With what?I posted about the proper way to calculate a tip. You suggested the thread had devolved. I disagreed that the thread had devolved (at that point) because calculating proper tip percentages was germane to the topic.

[innerSpaceman]

One thing that bothered me that's never been done at Jazz Kitchen any of the dozens of times I've dined there, is the waitress refused to figure our (meaning my group's seperate check) AP discount into the bill until AFTER we had paid the bill.

This made it more difficult than necessary to pay the proper amount, and was completely unnecessary ... unless they have some new policy that I first experienced on Sunday.


In any event, I liked our separate check speficially so I would, for once, not have to throw in an extra $20 towards the inevitable shortage on a tab for 24 people. Oh well, best laid plans and all that.


My PayPal account's been suspended, Kevy, so will you take a hand-job next time we meet?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I posted about the proper way to calculate a tip. You suggested the thread had devolved. I disagreed that the thread had devolved (at that point) because calculating proper tip percentages was germane to the topic.
The "devolved" comment was in reference to Kevy talking about using sex as a gratuity.

[Moonliner]

I posted about the proper way to calculate a tip. You suggested the thread had devolved. I disagreed that the thread had devolved (at that point) because calculating proper tip percentages was germane to the topic.

Damn, Strike one for me.

OK, as the glutton for punishment that I am, I'll take another swing.

Chernabog's "devolved" comment came directly after the "boning" comment. So I would put forth the two are related and as such the comment was not a comment on your comments but rather a comment on the comment contained within Chernabog's comments.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'd just like to point out that "The Jazz Kitchen Bill Cluster Fornication" would make an excellent band name.

[Prudence]

Our meals were on separate bills. We added up the cost of our items, rounded to the nearest dollar at least, multiple of 5 if it was close, and added 30%, which I thought would be enough to cover the tax and tip. No discount was provided for.

Since it is apparently an issue, I provide for your convenience a summary of our two bills:

Rat: 19.50 for chicken bercy, 7.50 for a bloody mary of some kind, and 10 for a manhattan. There was some confusion on manhattan price - two were on the bill with NM and EH1812, same drink, different prices - one at 9 and one at 11. I was under the impression that the decision was to split the difference at 10. That gives a total bill of 37.00. Plus 30% should be 48.10, and I left $50. That should more than cover any disagreement about the drink price.

My meal (and our shared appetizer/dessert) was on the same bill as Frodo Potter and Disneyphile. That included the roman garlic bread at 7.50, the chicken penne at 17.95, 2 louisiana lemonades at 7.95 each, and pie, which I can't remember the exact price of. I think it was 6.50, but just to be EXTRA careful let's call it $8. That would be a subtotal of 49.35, which plus 30% is 64.16. I left 64 (exact change even), since the .16 was more than made up for with the overage on the previous bill.

This was all done without discount, as we left before it was applied. If I had applied the discount, it would have reduced Rat's bill by 4.96 and my bill by 4.81, which should cover any minor variations in the above accounting. Of course, you're all welcome to correct my math and/or call me a liar, whichever is more convenient for you.

[Not Afraid]

We paid our portion plus 20% tip before discount then added more to the pot to cover the garlic bread we forgot to add in. Our group, which included Chris, Stoat, Bear, Kevy and I were fully covered before we left.

Something happened along the way. Either money was lifted or there were charges on the bill that were not paid for.

It is VERY frustrating to me that the money and charges were combined into one pot at the end of the meal. How do we know WHICH of the bills was under paid? That is the part that makes me think that money was taken somewhere in the process.

Also, remember when adding up what you ordered and paid the discount applies to FOOD and NON-ALCOHOLIC DRINKS ONLY.

[Pirate Bill]

I'd just like to point out that "The Jazz Kitchen Bill Cluster Fornication" would make an excellent band name.

And if my username was Jazz Kitchen Bill it would sound rather exciting, yet frightening.

[BarTopDancer]

I looked at my receipt (individual bill), it was $30 and change (3 course, no shared apps, no drink, no discount). I left a 17% tip, all on my card. That said, there is a check for $5 going to Kevy in today's mail.

[Alex]

How about this.

I'll send Kevy $120 and you all make sure I never pay for my own drink again at a Disney theme park.


(And yes, I'm sure that participation in this thread by people who weren't even there is really helping.)

[Ghoulish Delight]

How about this.

I'll send Kevy $120 and you all make sure I never pay for my own drink again at a Disney theme park.
Pending revelation of some sort of enforcement plan for this agreement, I will tentatively accept.

[keith - SuPeR K!]

Will $5 from everyone cover what Kevy overpaid?

[wolfy999]

24 x $5.00 = $120.00....yep that would do it.

[NirvanaMan]

Tips are always to be calculated on the full, non-discounted amount. It doesn't matter if the discount was 10% or 100%, one must figure tip as if there was no discount. The server's job is not any easier because one has a coupon or is boning the manager.

Agree but will play devil's advocate as this is something that always puzzled me.

Is the servers job harder at a more expensive restaurant than a TGI Friday's or Denny's? The food is much cheaper at those sorts of places (which I don't frequent anyway, but for the sake of the argument) but are they working any less hard?

Anyway, I agree you tip on pre-discount but you also tip on pre-tax. Those pretty much net out in this case.

While we are at it, what is the proper ettiquite for tipping on booze with dinner? Standard at a pub is generally a buck a drink. Now a bit different when you are talking about a $250 bottle of wine. I mean, it's no different than opening a $50 bottle of wine. I have heard different rules for this. Wonder what everyone's thoughts are?

[Snowflake]

While we are at it, what is the proper ettiquite for tipping on booze with dinner? Standard at a pub is generally a buck a drink. Now a bit different when you are talking about a $250 bottle of wine. I mean, it's no different than opening a $50 bottle of wine. I have heard different rules for this. Wonder what everyone's thoughts are?

itipping.com (http://www.itipping.com/) and tippingetiquette (http://www.findalink.net/tippingetiquette.php) are one of many tipping advice sites. ymmv, of course.

I found this interestding on the tippingetiquette site:

Dog walker or sitter - 1-2 week's pay.

Hello, NA, do you get tipped?

[Not Afraid]

I don't drink, but if I did, I would tip the same amount on both food and booze.

[Betty]

I generally double the tax when I tip if the service has been acceptable. I have no issues tipping less for crappy service or tipping more for great service. In fact, we visit the pancake house in corona nearly every weekend for sat. breakfast and always tip well because the service is (usually) better then everywhere else.

What annoys me is when I'm "expected" to tip a certain percentage no matter how lousy the service was. Just because you're in a large group does not mean the service is acceptable...

... but I wasn't there and have no business in this thread. Right?

And frankly, I don't tip for other stuff - such as the mailman at Christmas.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

The "devolved" comment was in reference to Kevy talking about using sex as a gratuity.

[start hair-splitting]
Kevy never suggested a sexual gratuity. In fact, at that point (and throughout most of this thread) Kevy had been all business. Cherny is the one who suggested sex-for-tip in the very same post that he suggested the thread had devolved (#6).
[end hair-splitting]
________________________________________________

Just a friendly suggestion that has worked well for large groups I have been in: nobody leaves the restaurant until the entire bill has been properly resolved. (Or their separate check, if they have to leave early.) This may seem draconian, but I think it's far better than sticking someone for the bill due to an honest mistake (or 12).

[innerSpaceman]

I'm also disappointed the separate bills were piled together. That's cluster fornication recipe right there.

But to suggest that someone lifted the money is far worse than suggesting that someone really cheaped out on their tab.


I believe enough people have already offered to throw in five bucks so that Kevy should have a handsome profit. Can we get to the part where we send or transmit the funds?

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Is the servers job harder at a more expensive restaurant than a TGI Friday's or Denny's?That's a valid question and the answer is a resounding YES! While it's not harder to carry a plate of $50 food vs. a plate of $5 food, the service expectations of the guests paying for the former are far higher. I can tell you from experience, the more people pay for their food the pickier and more assholish they tend to be*.

What annoys me is when I'm "expected" to tip a certain percentage no matter how lousy the service was. Just because you're in a large group does not mean the service is acceptable...That is absolutely true. But if the service was that bad, you should be speaking to the manager. This is not to "tattle" on the server, it's so the restaurant can improve. I worked in the food service industry for 20 years so please trust me when I say the management wants to know these things. If they don't, they won't be a restaurant manager for long.

And frankly, I don't tip for other stuff - such as the mailman at Christmas.I don't either. Isn't that more of an East Coast thing? (serious question) I don't know anybody in CA who has even done that here.



*This does not apply to anyone reading LoT.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

But to suggest that someone lifted the money is far worse than suggesting that someone really cheaped out on their tab.Has someone suggested this snafu was deliberate? (I ask that sincerely.)

[Ghoulish Delight]

[start hair-splitting]
Kevy never suggested a sexual gratuity. In fact, at that point (and throughout most of this thread) Kevy had been all business. Cherny is the one who suggested sex-for-tip in the very same post that he suggested the thread had devolved (#6).
[end hair-splitting]I was going from memory, and played the odds that it was Kevy.

[innerSpaceman]

SM, I see your point about better service being expected in better restaurants, but I don't agree. I'm no more particular in a fine dining establishment than I am at a diner. The same attributes that will get you a better than average tip from me go for any kind of restaurant. Cheerful and effective and reasonably attentive service.

Perhaps super-attentive is expected in finer establishements, but I don't know why. I've gotten just as good and just as lousy service at all levels of restaurant price-point.



But I've "accepted" that the tip is based on the meal price. However, I don't figure alcohol into that price. I still tip a fixed amount on drinks, no matter what they cost, and a tip on food based on its price.


And I've been known to refuse to pay the level of "included gratuity" if the service is substandard. 99% of the time, however, even my standard tip is better than the included gratuity, so this is never an issue. Servers who work at establishments like the Jazz Kitchen that never figure an automatic gratuity get an automatic tip increase from me over the same service at establishments that presume to tell me what I should tip for service.

[Snowflake]

I don't either. Isn't that more of an East Coast thing? (serious question) I don't know anybody in CA who has even done that here.

Well, they used to, at least in Sunnyvale. My dad was a mail carrier for 20 years and he came home with oodles of things over Xmas. Envelopes with $$, box after box of Sees candy, bottles of wine and champagne, homemade cookies, pickles, you name it. He probably carried home more in loot than he dropped off in the mail delivery.

Today, I do not tip the mail carrier simply because we do not have a regular carrier, it can change from week to week. It's not an easy job in a lot of respects, but US mail service is nothing like it was when my dad was a mail carrier.

[Not Afraid]

Has someone suggested this snafu was deliberate? (I ask that sincerely.)

I suggested that the money may have been lifted. There was enough cash sitting around on the table with no one directly watching it and the cash was mis-handled by the server (combining all of the cash even though the bills were separate) for that to happen.

The amount of money missing is large. It is more than any 2 people's dinner combined. It seems like a logical explanation to me because I honestly can't think of any other feasible explanation other than we were charged for items we did not order. If that was the case, I would think we would notice this on the individual bills.

[Alex]

I'm a generous tipper but find the whole thing stupid. I go along with price driving tip (if only because price is how the Feds will calculate taxes owed) but do place a minimum of $5 on the tip.

If I go to IHOP and eat breakfast for $8, they get $5. Because they work at IHOP. The only other places I regularly tip are:

1. Haircuts (I just go to Supercuts -- you couldn't tell? -- and give $5.
2. Hotel rooms for room service. $1-$2/day of stay (we generally don't let housekeeping in until the last day).
3. Taxis. Because I don't want anybody to say bad things about me in a Slavic language.
4. Those guys who open the cab door for you at Vegas casinos. Because doing so makes me feel like a whale (the good kind, not the kind I am).

Everybody else can go pound sand.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, there was no one in that room when we finished dinner other than the restaurant staff and members of our party.

I can't think of how this happened either, but I personally can't attribute it to outright theivery without some evidence.

[CoasterMatt]

It was the one armed man.

[Strangler Lewis]

I'm a generous tipper but find the whole thing stupid. I go along with price driving tip (if only because price is how the Feds will calculate taxes owed) but do place a minimum of $5 on the tip.

If I go to IHOP and eat breakfast for $8, they get $5. Because they work at IHOP. The only other places I regularly tip are:

1. Haircuts (I just go to Supercuts -- you couldn't tell? -- and give $5.
2. Hotel rooms for room service. $1-$2/day of stay (we generally don't let housekeeping in until the last day).
3. Taxis. Because I don't want anybody to say bad things about me in a Slavic language.
4. Those guys who open the cab door for you at Vegas casinos. Because doing so makes me feel like a whale (the good kind, not the kind I am).

Everybody else can go pound sand.

As a former valet, I take umbrage.

Maybe the money was lifted. On the other hand, when I waited tables, I remember watching the busy LA types who had lunch all throw money at the check as if how much it was didn't concern them. Every time that happened, the tip always came out under 15 percent.

[Not Afraid]

OK, I've talked to Alan, the manager of the restaurant.

Esmeralda was VERY organized (as much as she could be with the sudden onslaught of separate checks). A couple of things to note:

Jazz Kitchen does NOT add a mandatory gratuity for large parties unless asked in advance. It is their policy to NOT do that.
There were a few people that asked for separate checks in ADVANCE and were accommodated without issue.
Esmeralda returned each jacket with all of the change (with no tip taken out) and any credit card slips that were a part of that bill. According to Alan, the "change" was removed from the jacket as "change" and not kept in the jacket as a tip.
The actual bill for food and drink was covered in full but the remainder left over in cash or tips on credit cards amounted to about 2% of the total.
Deciding on separate check AFTER the meal was completed was the primary factor that resulted in this disaster.Alan made the following suggestions for the future:
We stick to ONLY one check whenever possible
We have ONE person in charge of the party so that if any questions arise (such as splitting out the check) the server knows who to talk to and our party members know who too talk to if someone need to leave early.
We stay somewhat organized until everyone is done eating. (Our running about apparently didn't help the situation either.)
We give the server our AP for discount purposes BEFORE we get the bill.We also can add on a set gratuity amount too the total bill if we choose and request. We can add a minimum percentage and, if an individual feels it is necessary, they can add more. But, at least the server will not be stiffed in any way. This is something we should ask for before we get the bill.

I promised him that, if I was there, I would try and keep things organized so our group would minimize the impact we had on the restaurant and their staff.

[Kevy Baby]

The "devolved" comment was in reference to Kevy talking about using sex as a gratuity.Why do I always get blamed for these things?

I mean, it is a very logical assumption, but still...


:)

I'd just like to point out that "The Jazz Kitchen Bill Cluster Fornication" would make an excellent band name.Okay, that made me laugh heartily, which is a bad thing to do at work because then I have to explain why I was laughing.

Agree but will play devil's advocate as this is something that always puzzled me.

Is the servers job harder at a more expensive restaurant than a TGI Friday's or Denny's? The food is much cheaper at those sorts of places (which I don't frequent anyway, but for the sake of the argument) but are they working any less hard?

Anyway, I agree you tip on pre-discount but you also tip on pre-tax. Those pretty much net out in this case.
My rule of thumb is that all servers get 20%, regardless of location and regardless of alcohol vs. not (and you probably won't find me ordering a $500 bottle of wine). Bad service gets less and when exceptional, I give more. I also tend to round up.

Also, I tip post-tax, but that is just me. I accept that other's opinions vary on this.

Is it safe to post my address here?

[NirvanaMan]

Deciding on separate check AFTER the meal was completed was the primary factor that resulted in this disaster.
We give the server our AP for discount purposes BEFORE we get the bill.


A couple points of contention, the server did offer us separate checks at the beginning and we agreed. She said that each person would basically be assigned a separate number and we could tell her what the groupings were at the end (which is why she asked whose bill your garlic bread should go on). That never happened.

On the second, we told her before the bills were presented that we would have a premium AP discount for each bill.

[Ghoulish Delight]

We give the server our AP for discount purposes BEFORE we get the bill.That may have added to the confusion. When she brought the "joke" check, I recall someone bringing up the AP discount. Her response was a bit of hand-waving and something about "it'll come later" or something like that, I didn't really catch what she said. But when she came back, none of the split checks had the AP discount applied. I wonder if there was a loss of communication there, with her thinking about the check splitting she was about to do, and therefor not actually listening to the question about AP discount, assuming the check-split was what the question was about.

ETA: Yeah, what NM said. She did mention check splitting when taking our orders, but never came back to ask HOW we wanted the check split before handing us the split checks.

[Kevy Baby]

Is it safe to post my address here??

[Not Afraid]

no.

[innerSpaceman]

That's interesting about requesting an automatic gratuity. I think that's a great idea for large parties, seriously. We can always add more.

Did people really ask for a separate check AFTER the meal was completed? WTF? Ok, yeah, recipe for FAIL.


As I wrote before, we actually remembered to give Esmeralda our AP BEFORE the bill was prepared, and seriously, she outright refused, despite repeated requests, to figure in our discount until AFTER our bill was printed. Another WTF?

I call shenanigans about change being left in the folder on bills paid by cash and credit combo. Despite the amount I wrote on the check to charge my card, the restaurant took all the cash - which included tips by those paying in cash - and then charged my lone card the difference up to the amount on the bill. So I had to put my entire party's tip on my card, since the cash tips had been used to pay the bill.

In theory, this should have worked out evenly. But I was unhappy with the tip under this procedure, and padded it afterwards with an additional $15 in cash. So the folder I left on the table at my end as the last thing I checked right before leaving had my credit card slip and a cash stippend sufficient to pay our tab with a 25% gratuity.



It was very pleasant to have the illusion of sitting as one group by all being at one, long table ... but now I seriously wish my party had just stayed at our original table.

Frankly, I'm glad I left before this all came out in the wash. Dinner was a delightful experience, and this has sullied it ... thankfully after the fact for most of us.

[Chernabog]

Chernabog's "devolved" comment came directly after the "boning" comment. So I would put forth the two are related and as such the comment was not a comment on your comments but rather a comment on the comment contained within Chernabog's comments.

Aaah ok that really clears matters up. :rolleyes: ;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Did people really ask for a separate check AFTER the meal was completed? WTF? Ok, yeah, recipe for FAIL.
No, that's not what happened. At least not in our neck of the woods. When taking our orders, she said she'd split the check, but that she'd come back later to identify who wanted their checks together for the split. She never did that step and instead, after bringing the "joke" check, came out with several checks split based on.....errr.....nothing seemingly remotely logical.

[Kevy Baby]

Yeah, that the waitress wouldn't apply the discount until AFTER the fact made no sense. That had me scratching my head as well.
_____________________

For me, the bottom line is that we will never know what caused the snafu. Probably a myriad of factors - a perfect storm if you will. I don't believe (or at least I don't want to believe) that there were any intentional shenanigans going on. And if there was, then that person(s) will have to deal with their own Karmic retribution.

[Chernabog]

OK, I've talked to Alan, the manager of the restaurant.



Out of curiosity how was his attitude about the whole thing? I mean, were they pissed at us in general? Or was he understanding? Did you tell him you'll be back on Friday?:evil:

[Chernabog]

Is it safe to post my address here?

It's safe to post your e-mail address linked to your paypal account though so we can send you some money via that channel.

Resistance is futile Kevy. We'll find a way to slip it to you. :evil:

[Ghoulish Delight]

It's safe to post your e-mail address linked to your paypal account though so we can send you some money via that channel.
And for added convenience, please include your bank account #, last 4 of your social, mother's maiden, and the name of your first pet.

[Not Afraid]

Out of curiosity how was his attitude about the whole thing? I mean, were they pissed at us in general? Or was he understanding? Did you tell him you'll be back on Friday?:evil:

He was a bit hesitant with me at first - understandable so. But, as I went into the discussion I made it clear that (a) I was trying to figure out what went wrong,(b) I was trying to come up with solutions to prevent the same thing happening in the future and (c) I was letting him know that we would be back on Friday. By the end of the conversation, he was happy that I had called and was sorry he was going to have the day off on Friday so he couldn't personally slap each and every one of us. No, he was sincerely sorry he was going to miss us.

I may not do a lot of things well, but I do know how to schmooze and make nice.

[Kevy Baby]

... and the name of your first pet.Why? Are you trying to determine my porn name?

Because I can tell you that is Hinkie Willowbrae

I can't make this stuff up I'm tellin' ya!

[Alex]

As a former valet, I take umbrage.

To compensate I think I have valet parked a car twice in my life. Once I did tip and once I would have but the guy who brought my car up ran off for another car when I was nowhere near him. Wasn't sure if I was expected to just throw the money after him.

Since the only place I'm ever likely to valet park is Vegas I'll lump them into the "people who open car doors for me" category.

[keith - SuPeR K!]

Yeah, that the waitress wouldn't apply the discount until AFTER the fact made no sense. That had me scratching my head as well.

Yes, I agree. We tried to get her to take our AP's several times before any bills were printed or issued and she wasn't having it. We mentioned that every single separate check would have an AP associated with it as well because of how we thought she would be splitting things, but apparently that all went out the window about 2 sections down the table...


Either way, I had a delightful meal with wonderful friends and I'd happily do it again soon!

[Morrigoon]

Not related to the incident, since I wasn't there, but since we're talking about good strategies for making sure sufficient tips are given:

My personal rule in groups is to take the raw cost of my food and add 25%. It's the easiest amount to figure, and covers tax as well as a higher than 15% tip, regardless of which county you're in. And then most of the time I'll round up to the nearest dollar.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Not related to the incident, since I wasn't there, but since we're talking about good strategies for making sure sufficient tips are given:

My personal rule in groups is to take the raw cost of my food and add 25%. It's the easiest amount to figure, and covers tax as well as a higher than 15% tip, regardless of which county you're in. And then most of the time I'll round up to the nearest dollar.
Actually, especially in LA county, 25% means just about right on a 15% tip now, with the latest sales tax increase.

[innerSpaceman]

Except when did the 'standard' tip go to 20%?


I have no problem with that change ... except that now if I want to leave a better than average tip, it's got to be at least 25% ... and fully one-quarter the price of the meal seems very out-of-line for a gratuity.

[Chernabog]

Standard tip is 15%, for average service. The person took your order and brought out your food and refilled your drink.

If you've ever waited tables (like I have) then you'll tip 20%. 20% is for good service (which you'll see more of obviously in a more expensive restaurant). The person explained the menu, offered selections, and was generally more attentive than your average restaurant.

Anything more than 20% is if the service was exceptional in some way. The wait staff went way out of their way to make sure that your dining experience was exquisite.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I aim high when tipping as part of a large party. Both in an attempt to avoid situations like we ended up with this time, and in recognition of the fact that handling large parties is a more difficult task for a server. One that probably slows down their overall service, meaning fewer total tips on their shift, and possibly lower tips from customers they are not able to pay as much attention to as they might otherwise due to having to deal with the large group.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

SM, I see your point about better service being expected in better restaurants, but I don't agree. I'm no more particular in a fine dining establishment than I am at a diner.*This does not apply to anyone reading LoT.You may not be more particular, but most other people very much are.

I've been known to refuse to pay the level of "included gratuity" if the service is substandard.
And I fully support/endorse that philosophy. All I'm saying is that the service was so poor you feel you need to ding the server on the tip, you should also tell the manager.

Has someone suggested this snafu was deliberate?I suggested that the money may have been lifted. There was enough cash sitting around on the table with no one directly watching it and the cash was mis-handled by the server (combining all of the cash even though the bills were separate) for that to happen.I meant to ask if someone had suggested one of us had lifted the cash. Sorry for not being clear.

Is it safe to post my address here?Absolutely not! (I'm quite serious)

Those guys who open the cab door for you at Vegas casinos. Because doing so makes me feel like a whale (the good kind, not the kind I am).I don't get it. What is the good kind of whale?

when did the 'standard' tip go to 20%?Even back in the days that I was waiting tables (over 13 years ago), the "standard" tip was a range of 15 to 20 percent. So I can't say I find it surprising to hear that has nudged up a bit.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On a side note, have restaurants stopped automatically adding gratuity to large parties? Did something happen to make them change that policy? It seemed ubiquitous not too long ago, but now I've encountered two unrelated dining establishments in the past week where I know for certain this policy has changed.

(Yeah, I know two does not a trend make.)

[Ghoulish Delight]

A "whale" is Vegas lingo for the highest of high rollers, the people who drop so much money that casinos fall over themselves to cater to their every whim to get them to lose their money in their establishment.

And no, restaurants have not stopped adding automatic gratuity on large parties, you've just run across a couple anomalies.

And while no one has accused anyone of our friends of intentionally stealing any money, we have been told that we should feel shame for some reason.

[innerSpaceman]

SM, on the one or two occassions when I felt it necessary to tip below the 18% automatic grautuity, speaking to the manger was de riguer ... if only to inform them why we wouldn't be paying the bill in full.

And if it's more than anecdotal that the standard tip has "nudged" up to near 20%, I still maintain that a tip for great service near one-fourth the price of the meal is usurous.


Lastly, as far as the JKBCF is concerned ... either some person or persons seriously cheaped out on their bill, some person in our party is a dirty, rotten thief who stole some money (pfft, um not), or someone in the restaurant is a thief who steals money from guests' checks (um, also not bloody likely).


I'm not saying this is the resulting scenario then, but the most likely answer is piss-poor accounting, more likely a mistake by the restaurant on the bill.

Kevy should sue.

[Alex]

A story. I'm am of course not accusing anyone there of similar behavior. It just triggered the memory. (But seriously, I blame scaeagles.)

Back in my first year of college a high school friend was at the same school but in a different room. He shared a pod five people and I hung out with them a lot. A pretty nice group of people. Every few weeks we'd all eat out together at table service restaurants.

One of the guys frequently forgot something at the table or would use the bathroom and tell us he'd meet us out front, etc. But we never thought anything of it until one night late in the year another member of the group did forget his sunglasses and went back in just in time to see our fine friend stealing the tip we'd all left. And we realized he'd been doing it all year long.

[Kevy Baby]

My personal rule in groups is to take the raw cost of my food and add 25%. It's the easiest amount to figure, and covers tax as well as a higher than 15% tip, regardless of which county you're in. And then most of the time I'll round up to the nearest dollar.My personal rule is to take the bottom line total and add 20%. 20% is easier to figure than 25% (IMO - 10% is easiest and just double that) and it keeps things safe. Again, I know not everyone agrees with this, but it is my policy.

Unless on the rare occasion I get bad service, I would rather give too much than too little. This holds true especially in places where I go repeatedly (lunch for example). My regular lunch partner and I have a couple of places we frequent and we can always count on great service and extra perks.

On a side note, have restaurants stopped automatically adding gratuity to large parties? Did something happen to make them change that policy?As Lisa mentioned, Jazz Kitchen is the oddity that does NOT automatically add the tip to large groups (though will upon request).

[Kevy Baby]

One of the guys frequently forgot something at the table or would use the bathroom and tell us he'd meet us out front, etc. But we never thought anything of it until one night late in the year another member of the group did forget his sunglasses and went back in just in time to see our fine friend stealing the tip we'd all left. And we realized he'd been doing it all year long.C'mon Alex: you're among friends. You can admit that it was you who was going back to pilfer the tips to support your drug addiction.

[Strangler Lewis]

As a former waiter, I'm going to guess that the restaurant's policy not to add a gratuity on is because the park is an international tourist destination and folks from other countries have different views on the matter.

[mousepod]

I wasn't there, and if you're offended by my attitude, I'm sorry in advance...

After reading close to 100 posts about this dinner, it strikes me that this is precisely why I loathe these kinds of situations.

When I'm out with friends, I find that there's nothing easier than getting one bill, adding the tip, and dividing it by the number of people in attendance. Sure, there might be one person who only ate the bean dip appetizer and another who had 10 mixed drinks, but over time with a group of friends these things tend to balance out. If someone's short on cash, there's generally someone else who will cover for them, and if someone needs to leave before the check arrives, they will leave what their estimated cut is and then will owe or be reimbursed shortly. No headaches, no hassle.

[Not Afraid]

As a former waiter, I'm going to guess that the restaurant's policy not to add a gratuity on is because the park is an international tourist destination and folks from other countries have different views on the matter.

Except that all of the other restaurants in DTD DO add gratuity for large parties.

[Ghoulish Delight]

My personal rule is to take the bottom line total and add 20%. 20% is easier to figure than 25% (IMO - 10% is easiest and just double that) and it keeps things safe. Again, I know not everyone agrees with this, but it is my policy.Wait wait wait.

That's a 22% tip.

When we're talking #s like $730-$800, a few percent is pretty important.

It's clear that not enough money was left. But based on that, $120 I think is somewhat exaggerated. I just looked more closely at your math above. You did 20% of the nearly $800 AFTER TAX amount, coming up with $160 - the $40 in change.

Well, the before tax amount would have been $730. That would mean a tip of between $109-$146 (15-20% of $730). Figuring that everyone's fudge factors are a little different, $125 would be a reasonable tip assumption. Take away the $40 that was there, and it's $85 of shortage.

That's a fair bit different than $120 and is approaching a range that looks more like collective and bad estimation than incompetence and/or thievery.

Again, it's still egregiously under paid, but it's far from as bad as your decision to leave a more-generous-than-societally-agreed-upon tip makes it seem. I'm not saying that a 22% tip is unreasonable, especially considering the lengths they went to to accomodate us, I'm just saying that it's unlikely that most people had 22% in mind when doing their math.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm going to guess that the restaurant's policy not to add a gratuity on is because the park is an international tourist destination and folks from other countries have different views on the matter.

Good enough assumption, but this just happens to be a restaurant with cool policies. For their first year of operation, there were no children allowed. Certainly this had nothing to do with the Disney International Tourist Destination. It was just awesomeness for its own sake.

[innerSpaceman]

I wasn't there, and if you're offended by my attitude, I'm sorry in advance.

I'm not offended by the concept. Many people swear by it. I will not abide.

Many people in our "group" are on, shall we say, a "fixed income." At my end of the table, Isaac ordered a side of mashed potatoes for dinner. Keith and Omar split their entree. I'm not even suggesting any of them did this for financial reasons, but there's no way I'll sit by and let any of my friends pay some kind of equal share for the meager amount of food they ordered.

Conversely, I don't expect anyone to share in my bar tab. And it would curtail what I order from the bar and the kitchen if I knew everyone would be splitting the tab equally.


On the occassion when I've been part of a group that happened to notice we've all ordered substantially similar amounts of food and drink, we've agreed to split the bill for convenience sake. But in most real-world situations I've found myself in, this would be grossly unfair.

[mousepod]

I'm not offended by the concept. Many people swear by it. I will not abide.

But in most real-world situations I've found myself in, this would be grossly unfair.

Rather than curtail your excessive drinking, why don't you turn to the people that you see ordered mashed potatoes as their entree and slip them some cash? That way, two friends have figured out a way to correct the imbalance of wealth without creating a headache for the group?

I would argue that trying to do it in an "honest, pay for what you eat" method creates situations like this more often than not. In other circumstances, a pot luck dinner for example, the "only take the equivalent of what you bring" attitude would be considered tasteless. So why is it OK here?

[innerSpaceman]

Heheh, I would slip Isaac some cash for his mashed potatoes, but please forgive me for indelicately saying I've already slipped Isaac enough cash for approximately 368,493 Jazz Kitchen full course dinners (and, contrary to popular opinion, not in return for what he's slipped me.) ;)



Everyone's got different experiences. Kevy might also argue the 'pay for your own meal' system has bad results more often than not. My fairly extensive group restaurant experience has this happening 1 time in 50.


I know we're all being a bit pithy here (certainly I am), but I hardly think figuring out what you've paid for, adding tax and a better than average tip for being part of a large group causes a "headache." Order aspirin with your meal if it hurts your head to figure out what you owe, and order the mashed potatoes if you can't pay for what you'd like to order.

[Strangler Lewis]

Because the amounts and the atmosphere differ. At a potluck, each person or familiy's contribution will reasonably fall between about $5 to $20. People mill about, and nobody pays too much attention to what anyone else eats or drinks (unless they get drunk). At a restaurant, every time the server comes by to take an order, a little cash register can go off in everybody's head. Drinks, more drinks, appetizers, entrees, dessert. It adds up.

MP, I would also bet that when you go out for dinner with friends, there's a lot of signaling going on about who's having what, splitting appetizers, dessert/no dessert, etc., so that at the end of the day, splitting the bill seems within the realm of reasonableness.

[mousepod]

I hear ya, iSm. I never doubt my own ability to figure out how much I owe, particularly because I never drink and rarely leave early. However, as much as I have my own issues about money, I really don't want to get into conversations about other people's money, which tends to happen when the 'pay for your own meal' process falls apart.

[mousepod]

MP, I would also bet that when you go out for dinner with friends, there's a lot of signaling going on about who's having what, splitting appetizers, dessert/no dessert, etc., so that at the end of the day, splitting the bill seems within the realm of reasonableness.

No, actually. I often go out with groups of friends and there's no overt 'signaling' going on. The conversation about cost tends to take place beforehand, in our choice of restaurants.

[BarTopDancer]

I wasn't there, and if you're offended by my attitude, I'm sorry in advance...

After reading close to 100 posts about this dinner, it strikes me that this is precisely why I loathe these kinds of situations.

When I'm out with friends, I find that there's nothing easier than getting one bill, adding the tip, and dividing it by the number of people in attendance. Sure, there might be one person who only ate the bean dip appetizer and another who had 10 mixed drinks, but over time with a group of friends these things tend to balance out. If someone's short on cash, there's generally someone else who will cover for them, and if someone needs to leave before the check arrives, they will leave what their estimated cut is and then will owe or be reimbursed shortly. No headaches, no hassle.

If I'm in a situation where I need to watch my budget now, evening out later won't matter and I'm not comfortable with someone else slipping me some money to cover, so I'd just as well not attend the meal. If I am in a group and we all order similarly priced items then sure. But in a group where some people had a side and some people had a $30 entree + a $15 dessert + drinks there is no way I'd be remotely comfortable splitting that bill evenly. Especially right now where I am watching my dollars. Yes, I can go out, but I budget accordingly for myself, not for what the group orders.

[Not Afraid]

Personally, I won't split a bill when there's alcohol involved unless it is with a group of 4 where Chris drinks and one of the other people also drinks. In large groups like we had the other night, there tends to be a few excessive drinkers and I won't pay a portion of their excessiveness.

[mousepod]

LoT Commune FAIL

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I agree with Not Afraid and innerSpaceman (and others) who are not generally comfortable evenly splitting a bill.

I have and will gladly do an even split when my dining companions and I all ordered roughly the same thing. E.g., if we all got an appetizer (or split one), entree, non-booze beverage, and dessert, each person's total is going to be roughly the same. I would happily discard the $3-$4 difference for the convenience in paying.

However, if my date (HA! :rolleyes:) and I each order soup, sandwich, and milk while my friend and his husband order appetizers, entrees, a $30 bottle of wine, and dessert, I simply can't afford to evenly split that bill. And if the tables were turned, I would never expect my friends to pay for my stuff either. I'm not a stingy bastard, I'm just trying to live within my means. If I was wealthy enough, I'd love to pick up the whole tab because I enjoy treating my friends.

[keith - SuPeR K!]

In large groups like we had the other night, there tends to be a few excessive drinkers and I won't pay a portion of their excessiveness.

I agree... Lisa shouldn't have to pay for my excessive drinking! :cheers:

[Strangler Lewis]

LoT Commune FAIL

Not at all. By design and necessity, meals at the commune would run towards simplicity of concept and modesty of portion, prepared with the sacredness of tea ceremony and consumed with prayers of gratitude.

[mousepod]

By design and necessity, meals at the commune would run towards simplicity of concept and modesty of portion, prepared with the sacredness of tea ceremony and consumed with prayers of gratitude.

VSLM!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Did everyone miss this? Emphasis mine.
Well, the before tax amount would have been $730. That would mean a tip of between $109-$146 (15-20% of $730). Figuring that everyone's fudge factors are a little different, $125 would be a reasonable tip assumption. Take away the $40 that was there, and it's $85 of shortage.

That's a fair bit different than $120 and is approaching a range that looks more like collective and bad estimation than incompetence and/or thievery.THANK YOU to my husband for figuring this out.

[Disneyphile]

I'm another one who won't just evenly split in hopes that it would "even" out later, mainly because I am very mindful of our budget when we go out. I'm also from the train of thought to contribute equally to pot luck situations. I like to share, not provide. It is a pet peeve of mine to see people show up and chow without contributing, especially when it tends to always be the same people.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I like to share, not provide. It is a pet peeve of mine to see people show up and chow without contributing, especially when it tends to always be the same people.

That's why I always bring Twinkies....

[innerSpaceman]

In large groups like we had the other night, there tends to be a few excessive drinkers and I won't pay a portion of their excessiveness.

What excessiveness? You mean when I thought the table cloth was my napkin? (That's where I had a self-imposed cut off, btw).

Or perhaps when Keith was hysterical laughing on the floor? (That's when the waitress cut him off, btw).


:D

[innerSpaceman]

Did everyone miss this?


Not at all. It's just that now I don't know whether to send Kevy $10 or $6.32. :confused:

[SzczerbiakManiac]

That's why I always bring Twinkies....I thought you were straight...?

[Kevy Baby]

Wait wait wait.In this entire discussion, I have tried to do two things:

State my own opinions on tipping and how I acknowledge that my tipping tends to be higher than others
I have NEVER asked for recompense for any moneyIf you don't agree with how I came up with things (or for any other reason), YOU DO NOT NEED TO SEND ME MONEY. I will not be keeping track of who does or doesn't. And I don't care if anyone does. I have not and will not ask for money on this. No one is obligated to send.

In this case, I feel that the extra money was warranted, especially in light of all the fiascoes of split bills and an extra hour of her time just to try to make sense of everything.

[Kevy Baby]

I thought you were straight...?Is anyone REALLY straight?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Not at all. It's just that now I don't know whether to send Kevy $10 or $6.32. :confused:
Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about the discrepancy myself. Though I'm leaning towards sending $10 for the two of us still. He shouldn't have been stuck with covering the difference either way, so I do think it's still fair to attempt to recover as much of what he laid out as we can for him.

I mostly did the math to point out that the shortfall wasn't as dramatic as it appeared based on the original math, not because I feel like Kevy made some horrible decision that should cost him $40.

[Ghoulish Delight]

In this case, I feel that the extra money was warranted, especially in light of all the fiascoes of split bills and an extra hour of her time just to try to make sense of everything.
I understand that, and as I said, I wasn't indicating that the tip was unnecessarily exorbitant.

But with "shame" and implications of theft being tossed about, I thought I'd point out that it was based on a somewhat inflated number and that the reality of the situation was notably different than the original premise given.

[BarTopDancer]

Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about the discrepancy myself. Though I'm leaning towards sending $10 for the two of us still. He shouldn't have been stuck with covering the difference either way, so I do think it's still fair to attempt to recover as much of what he laid out as we can for him.

And given how many other times this has happened and he's covered I think it's the least we can do.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, duh. I was only kidding about the $6.32. I've got a ten dollar bill on its way to Kevy right now. (Um, don't be alarmed that it's in a law office envelope!)


What I wasn't kidding about is that I won't even start to pay my portion of the tab until Kevy leaves the restaurant. Maybe I feel bad for all the "Who Has Kevy's Credit Card" jokes I make when he's not part of the dining party.

[Not Afraid]

I agree... Lisa shouldn't have to pay for my excessive drinking! :cheers:


True that! I've already paid enough for my own excessive drinking. :D

[€uroMeinke]

At $85 there was certainly room for error on the restaurants part - some possibilities I was aware of:


Tiggs leaving early and paying her share on a separate bill - was that removed from the original?
The bread ordered at the first table (but never delivered) - did that still get added to the final bill? I know they at least got my drink I ordered at the first table.
The Lashpair ordered a bottle of wine and got a glass instead and o[ted to change their order. The bottle didn't end up on our tab, but did it make its way onto one of the other splits?
Then there's EH's overcharge - where did that come from.I think we all paid good attention to our own, but once split there was no way for someone to oversee the total and find any item unaccounted for. Lessons learned for next time. Maybe a prix fixe buffet is the best route to go for a group of such size...

[Not Afraid]

Maybe a prix fixe buffet is the best route to go for a group of such size...

Go wash your mouth out with soap!

[Not Afraid]

But with "shame" and implications of theft being tossed about, I thought I'd point out that it was based on a somewhat inflated number and that the reality of the situation was notably different than the original premise given.

I was a server for a total of 9 months in a very nice restaurant at South Coast Plaza. During that 9 months, we had 8 different incidents of theft. Although not all incidents were solved, the ones that were were done by a) a bus boy (2) b) another server (1) and c) a restaurant patron (2). So, my own experience leads me to the possibility that is it something to consider. Not that we probably will ever know.

And, shame on your for NOT thinking the worst!:p

[keith - SuPeR K!]

Or perhaps when Keith was hysterical laughing on the floor? (That's when the waitress cut him off, btw).

LOL Laughing on the floor had it's reasons rooted in reality, not alcohol ;)

[innerSpaceman]

Oh I know that.



Esmeralda did not. :p

[lashbear]

LOL Laughing on the floor had it's reasons rooted in reality, not alcohol ;)
Yes! I'm the Rooted reason.

wait..