NOTE: I will use the word "attractive" to mean "the average society standard of attractiveness".

If you want I can start pulling up studies on attractive people getting better responses than less attractive people. I'll say it again, it's a fact of life. A sad one, but a fact nonetheless.

You say all this as if a) I made it up, b) that it's not true in our society. You just have to go to http://www.hotornot.com to find out exactly what the average (internet enabled) individual thinks is hot or not.

I'll say this AGAIN - I'm not saying that I agree with society's standards. Many of Hollywoods "ideals" are so not my thing. Many of them look like freaks of nature. What people are doing to their bodies with plastic surgery is horrifying, not to mention the high heels/panty hose/plucking/waxing/shaving/makeup/hair dye/manicure stuff. Sure, I do my share of all that, just like any other member of this society. Should I get all pissed if guys think that hairy pits are not sexy? A lot of what society dictates is stupid, but we either deal or get the consequences. I personally wish I didn't have to shave my legs or armpits but I conform, because showing up with shaggy legs in a skirt won't exactly fly at the workplace. I could yell "I'm beautiful even though I have hairy armpits!" but no one would listen to that.

iSm said it perfectly - Sczcerbiak, I love you to death, and hate to see you beat yourself up like that. You are quite the handsome man and I'm sure that one day you'll find your knight in shining armor that will match you perfectly. :cheers:

In reference to Szerbiak's spoiler tag...

Welcome to my life. Where I spend much of it thinking of "ways to change society's perceptions of fat people."

Ah, the misconceptions. My screenplay (which, many of you know, is called "Yoga for Fat Girls") is a family drama about a mother, two daughters, and a granddaughter who are overweight. It's not a movie about losing weight, mind you, or obsessed particularly with the concept. First and foremost it's about these women's relationships. But underlying themes stress equal parts health-awareness and self-acceptance.

This thread has been more motivation to make this film than just about anything else.

I'll be hosting a reading of it in early February, and man, would I like to have everyone here attend. Not just because I want input and reaction before it gets sent out, but because, like SM suggests, I am striving to change society's opinions of fat people, and what better than to start with the people around me?

Also, SM, isn't that you in your profile pic? Ugly you are not. Quite attractive, for a vulcan. A lot of people in my life HAVE been physically attracted to me, not limited to emotional or mental attraction. Acknowledge societal trends but don't embrace them so.

:shakes head:

Wow. I cannot believe what a turn this thread took. I'll say it again. I'm utterly shocked at what's being said here. And I'm saddened. I keep opening it hoping to see the people I thought I once knew returned from the pods and this ugly judgementality gone back with the aliens.

:(

Psst....Klingon.....:)

I'd love to come to your reading!

If you're talking about me, please point to the part of my last post where I was judgemental, or where I wasn't stating facts.

Beauty is skin deep, ugly is straight to the bone...

Not just you. This whole thread has turned so ugly. If those are facts I'd like to see actual reports. If there aren't they are just your perception of what you view society to be. As for hot or not, in the grand scheme of things it's still a small percentage of society.

Ah, Jenni-san. Don't think so small! What if, say, Martin Luther King Jr. had said "no one would listen"? Not to equate the civil rights movement with the armpit hair movement. But you know what I'm saying.

Besides, Paris has found the hairy armpits sexy for years now. You're just playing to the wrong audience.

I'm not sure how to say what I want to say. So I'll sum it up this way:

1. I, personally, am fat. Physically I am not attractive (to me) because of this.

2. Physically, other fat people are not attractive to me. This has little to do with the attractiveness of people I know because once actual social interaction begins, simple physical attractiveness is quickly swamped by many other elements that go into a whole person. But when I'm simply seeing a cast member at the park or my waiter at a restaurant, all there is is simple physical attractiveness. Fat is not to my liking in this regard. Further, if the person is thin, Asian, tall, large breasted, and has red hair then their attractiveness is greatly augmented for me. Physical attractiveness is a set of personal standards that can be expressed across populations within certain ranges. While these ranges vary over time and place, the ideal does tend towards the thinner side (from ancient statuary, the Venus de Milo was not considered ugly and David has no love handles).

3. Again, for emphasis, point 2 only really applies in purely physical interactions where the myriad of other personal factors can not come into play.

4. So, purely for selfish reasons, my preference would be that all non-character cast members at Disneyland be tall D-cup Asian women with red hair.

5. My purely selfish preferences should have nothing to do with Disneyland's hiring practices for non-character cast members and unless weight somehow limits ability, it should be a non-factor in hiring. I do not buy into the notion that non-character cast members are "casting." The standards of filmmaking no more apply to the cashier at the Emporium than they do at the McDonald's across the street.

6. I would like to see more diversity in some of the character and entertainment cast members as well, while we're at it. I would love to see a black or hispanic (or any other race/ethnicity) Cinderella standing out in front of the castle. This wouldn't bother me at all, any more than I'd be upset to find an Inuit playing skipper on the Jungle Cruise.

And you, and some others, continue to miss the point. Understanding the status quo does not require one to accept the status quo. True, you're not fat so I guess it's not your fight. You have no reason not to be okay with the status quo.

And honestly -- it doesn't matter what you think of me. I have a husband who, for God only knows what reason, apparently loves and adores me -- blubber and all. I have a family that has every confidence in my future success. My friends, although few in number, are true blue to the end. I'll indulge in some rare confidence and assert that I am the smartest person I know. I can sign, dance, and play ragtime piano. I can knit, sew, and assemble Ikea furniture. And, perhaps most importantly, my cat thinks my lap is the best napping spot on the planet. I have nearly every blessing imaginable, but looks weren't included in the package.

What I try to keep out of my life are people who think that the way society treats me is just something to be accepted -- a throw the hands up in the air, what is one to do, can't fight it mentality. No one's required to fight my battles for me, but my friends and family do anyhow. That's what sets them apart.

As for this discussion, gee, you'll be my "friend" even though I'm fat? How magnanimous of you! You can wrap it up however you like, but it's still pity. My friends don't need to overlook my appearance in order to be my friend.