Why not so sure about Spain? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm curious as to why you think Islamic terrorists will stop there, or that the land there is worth the fighting. If Israel ceased to exist, wouldn't it make sense that they would be emboldened to move on to other territories they feel they are entitled to?

As motivation it would be both, but I think primarily the latter. Our presence in Saudi Arabia is particularly galling to bin Laden.

The other option , though it will take longer is for Isreali palastinians to be fruitful and multiply. Make Love not War, etc.

Perhaps, but I find the whole "emboldened" argument to be such weaksauce ... even if it turns out to be true. In any given situation, there may be no good options ... with the best choice being to select the least worst.

Multiple Choice, scaeagles:

A. Surrender

B. Death

C. Become Your Enemy (or the equivalent)


Even if "A" emboldens your enemy, do you find "B" or "C" to be preferable?

What about Spain? In the last 500 years they haven't really done much to actually reclaim it. Why? Because while I am sure there have always been fundamentalists who think it should be of the highest priority to reclaim Spain and Bulgaria, they don't have the support of mainstream society.

The same is true today. Remove the mainstream societal support and while the fundamentalists will still be there they'll essentially be neutered. They may still do bad things but there is always a certain level of background noise from people doing bad things.

Israel is a constant thorn and there are legitimate complaints about how it came to be there and how it continues to exist. Not, in my opinion, legitimate enough to justify the violence but then that is why I haven't blown anybody up. Obviously others disagree.

But if Israel disappears, I don't really believe that Al Qaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas will find much support for taking the violence to Washington, or even Madrid.

When a crazy person yells at me for sitting on his park bench. I move to another park bench. When a crazy person comes to my door with a gun and tells me to leave. I leave (though I call the police, but I'm not going to kill anybody to stay in my house). If I lived in Israel, personally, my ability to stay there wouldn't be worth the violence.

Obviously most don't agree and as wendybeth says Israel is there and isn't going anywhere and so violence will continue until one side eradicates the other or so much time has passed that even human stupidity can't work up the energy of idiotic indignation.

So, I don't really have a problem with not calling for a cease fire. It wouldn't accomplish anything but prolonging the nearly inevitable. And I'm still willing to give Arizona as a replacement if they'll give up Israel. Except for the Navajo Nation corner, they've been through a lot already.

I disagree with the premise of your question. I disagree that Israel is becoming the enemy they are fighting against. Israel has shown they are willing to live at peace and even give concessions to do so. It is their enemy who will not do the same.

So becoming the enemy? I don't buy it. Terrorists purposefully target civilians and then hide among their own women and children, and all the while seem to gain the sympathy of the international community as the victims.

I don't see Israel as the bad guy, or even as becoming the bad guy. They did not bring war. War was brought to them.

If you choose A you will become C eventually anyway....might as well go directly to C and skip step A.

scaeagles, I am astounded with how obtuse you are about the practices of Israel. Go get yourself an education, boy. I do not have the wherewithal to school you myself, but you really are demonstrating too much ignorance to conduct a fair conversation on this subject.

Jeeez Louise.

sleepyjeff ... Huh? How do ya figure?

I think there are points on both sides of the argument in this thread. However, there's a point that keeps being brought up that irks me a bit, and that's the idea that this is about "The Jews". Sorry, but just because Israel is a Jewish state doesn't mean that The Jews are the aggressors, or even defenders. Israel is. And the point that radical Islam is against The Jews is just not valid. They're against people who aren't them. When Al Qaeda was battling the Russians in Afghanistan, there wasn't a Jew to be found. When Algerian terrorists set off bombs in France (which they've done for decades), it's not to get rid of Jews or Americans. The cynical side of me could see their actions as some sort of warped Manifest Destiny. But that doesn't mean I see it as a justification of their actions. I'm not a fan of this US administrations tactics against terrorism or Israel's most recent approach in dealing with its enemies. But someone sure needs to do something. And walking away or "surrender" isn't the solution.

Just my two cents.

Carry on.