Perhaps, but this has been a cultural shift a long time coming - remember the days when Continental Airlines strutted it's stewardess on it's comercials singing "We Really Move our Tails for You?"

I suspect as more women entered the business world, such marketing found less of an audience (as the women weren't as amused and the men felt less comfortable in endulging their laciviousness).

But I think you hit on an interesting tangent - the desexualization of the work place. Current sexual harrassment training while presented as broadly as possible clearly is directed at men, who still are viewed as potential rapists.

Is it any wonder that porn is more poipular than ever?

Are you gonna take me home tonight ?
Ah down beside that red firelight
Are you gonna let it all hang out ?
Fat bottomed girls
You make the rockin' world go round

Hey I was just a skinny lad
Never knew no good from bad
But I knew life before I left my nursery - huh
Left alone with big fat Fanny
She was such a naughty nanny
Heap big woman you made a bad boy out of me
Hey hey!
Wooh

I've been singing with my band
Across the wire across the land
I seen every blue eyed floozy on the way, hey
But their beauty and their style
Went kind of smooth after a while
Take me to them dirty ladies everytime

C'mon
Oh won't you take me home tonight ?
Oh down beside your red firelight
Oh and you give it all you got
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round

Hey listen here
Now I got mortgages on homes
I got stiffness in ma' bones
Ain't no beauty Queens in this locality (I tell you)
Oh but I still get my pleasure
Still get my greatest treasure
Heap big woman you gonna make a big man out of me

Now get this
Oh (I know) you gonna take me home tonight (please)
Oh down beside that red firelight
Are you gonna let it all hang out ?
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round yeah
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round

Get on your bikes and ride
Ooh yeah oh yeah them fat bottomed girls
Fat bottomed girls
Yeah yeah yeah
Alright, ride 'em, c'mon
Fat bottomed girls - yes yes

As long as we're quoting lyrics:

She’s elliptical
Also political
All so spiritual
Not superficial
Yeah, she’s tropical
Yes, she’s illogical
Those little girls are a pest
Big girls are the best

-U2, "Big Girls Are Best"

I have to disagree. I was shocked by CP's original post, but she has stated that it didn't come across as she intended it. I think we all have moments where we come off as a jerk when we didn't intend to.

In my first post I put, "Jennie, if I didn't already love you, I'd have some serious fighting words." Meaning that I KNOW that CP doesn't think that fat people should be hidden behind desks or whatever. I know that she doesn't find someone ugly just because they are overweight, even though they may not occupy her fantasy life. Next time we meet IRL am I going to wonder for a second whether she is judging me for being overweight (well, maybe by then I won't be, but lets not count our calories before they're lost)? No way.

Moreover, I think her posts since have been an interesting look at an opposing point of view. I think that sometimes people forget that there are other body types that are harshly judged. I know when I was in junior high wanting to die because I was fat I wasn't thinking that there was probably a skinny girl that the same thing was happening to. In fact, if I had known that I would have wished to be her, because well, at least she was getting made fun of for being thin, and how could that possibly be bad? Even now, I have a flat chested friend that is self conscious about her boobs. My first reaction is, "Well at least she can wear certain clothes without a bra." But that doesn't really take her feelings into account. She'd like to have my big boobs, which I would gladly be rid of. for a pair more average sized. CP, is right, the grass is always phucking greener.

I suppose there is always something to judged for. My disneyland will be staffed entirely by Vin Diesel, Edward Norton, Zach Braff, and Steve Buscemi (who I am strangely attracted to, but would never kiss. Those teeth - UGH!). I don't expect Disney to alter their hiring practices to fit it though. :p

And, if you all can carry on with the thought of the first statement erased from your minds and not influencing how the thread progresses, then that's a good thing. However, I wasn't seeing a universal acceptance of the appology. Therein lies my concern. The justifications that ensued just seemed to make matters worse for some. That's why I suggested that Jen leave the appology there and walk away.

Sometimes it's not the fu<kups that get you in trouble but the justifications that follow.

And, just to make this part clear, this is not about some personal issue I have with Jen. I would've acted the same way with anyone. But, it's convenient to blame it on personal issues and discount my suggestions.

I'm confused by this part? Are you saying that I have personal issues or that you and Jen do?

I'm not discounting your suggestions. Although, they did come across as being a bit harsh, to me at least. That's the problem with the internet I suppose, hard to tell and all. I understand your statements that the issue should just die, I just disagree. I think discussion is ok. If people aren't able to accept an apology and move on then that's their problem (I'm not saying they aren't, very little discussion has gone on about CP's recent posts). Personally, I think the discussion is going well and there is a productive exchange of ideas that a lot of people are learning from. If a little fighting happens along the way then that's ok. As far as I know we all like each other for the most part. We can get over stuff, right?

If you throw in Josh Duhmel and Josh Holloway I'm all over them.. I mean it.

I have no problem with de-sexualization of the work place, but I do have trouble with the de-sexualization of the entertainment space.

Despite that many feel Disneyland to be a mere workplace and 'cast member' to be a misnomer, I view everything that takes place in its public spaces to be "on stage." And like most people, I want a wee bit of sexual titilation in my entertainment ... most especially in the area of costuming.

It's not that I want women objectified. Perhaps I would find the french maid outfit a bit anachronistic in terms of sexism, and yet the Storybookland skirts I would - to this day - find charming and appropriate.

I don't want men objectified either. I think getting rid of laderhosen was a step too far, even for this day and age. And I find rolled-up shirtsleeves for Canoe Boys to be perfectly acceptable. On the other hand ... requiring them to take off their shirts as they paddle 'round the RoA would be a step too far (except, perhaps, on a certain Saturday each October).


:birdy: In other words, some entertainment costumes - even in 2005 - work best with an element of sex appeal about them. I don't believe sexy costumes will ever go out of style.

my flesh is a disguise
the weeder course for the pursuit of a degree
in who i am and why i am and what i do and how
so that if you take one look
and see only the one thing--and it stops you--
i don't have to bother sharing
my thoughts on politics, my short stories, my grasshopper joke
because in the long run
you'd never be worth my time
if my tits invade your personal bubble of space

my flesh is a machine
carrying me everywhere your flesh carries you.
it even goes to the gym.
it pushes down on the legg-press
with the ease of a game of tiddly-winks
white the waifs around me
struggle
to move half the air pressure
in twice the time

my flesh is an emblem
there is no mistaking me
for anything but female
and the only angle on my body
is the perpendicular intersection
where my middle finger
rises from my fist
when somebody suggests
that my only angle
is the right angle of my legs
while sitting on the couch

my flesh is a rebellion
in place of a collection of safety-pins
on the hem of a punk rock shirt
saying
this is who i am
i am not what you are
and you can be drawn to or repelled by my
metaphorical blue hair-- roundness--excess
but i cling to it because i choose it
my fashion of skin
and because you do not

my flesh is a sanctuary
a haven for warm support
love given freely
to those who seek
a firm embrace camoflaged
with the softness of my arms

my flesh is a cornocopia
a gathering of fruits
a boquet of luscious smells and tastes
succulent, juicy-sweet
ready for harvest
my own thanksgiving feast--and yours
to celebrate the fullness of the moon

My comment was in reference to Isaac's post. He seemed to have decided that it was a personal issue. And, I guess I do have a personal issue with anyone who acts like an ass. So, he's partially right. ;) But, there were a LOT of feathers ruffled by the initial comment and I really didn't want to see it continue down the hateful path. If a discussion can heal, I'm all for it, but I wasn't seeing that happen on a universal participant level.