...and I offered no defense.

I just offered the idea that while the man was not a saint, nor was he as simple a thing as a villain- and history will deal with his legacy- for good or bad.

He was someone's husband, father, grandfather.....and frankly excusing your own intolerance and hatred by pointing to someone else's is a poor deflection indeed.

(MBC- before the same mistake happens- my post is not direct comment to yours even though it follows)

Please explain then why it is hatred when Helms expressed it- but it is not when you do?

Was it because he had a larger stage from which to project those views?

Is hatred only measured by proportion to those who have access to it?

One more thing since I am off to bed.

JW- you and I came a long way from the beginning. I trust you do not think I believe that you are a "wretch" as Helms is quoted as believing-and I would be hurt if the thought even crossed your mind.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just offering my thoughts to the thread. Is there something wrong with that?

<<<sigh>>>

I'm getting very tired of being told I'm full of hatred because I speak out for, and defend, Human dignity, civil rights, and common decency.

There are people in this world who cause great harm or advocate evil. Do you really think that speaking out against this is hatred?

It is evil to try and use your position to deny other Humans basic rights and dignity. Do you really think that speaking out against this is hatred?

It is evil to advocate the extermination of other Humans. Do you really think that speaking out against this is hatred?

I will always condemn those who support intolerance, hatred and violence, for these are the true evils. I will not apologize for it. I will not excuse it away because it is religious based, or because the person has other good qualities, or because they are dead.

I don't give a rats ass how many relatives Jesse helms had. It, in no way, lessens what he did.

Nephy,

All of us, in this life, must decide if they are on the side of humanity, or on the side of intolerance. Jesse made his choice, and I made mine.

No, but please do not presume to tell me what I do or do not hate.

And I never asked you to respect him, nor asserted that you should. How you feel about him and what you say about him is your prerogative. Different people respond to things in different ways. It's OK that you wouldn't choose to treat him with respect. It's OK that I do my best to treat everyone with respect regardless of whether they deserve it. One can respectfully disagree. It doesn't mean I condone anything, and it doesn't mean that I won't and haven't spent a terrific amount of energy throughout my life to try to enlighten the ignorant people I come across.

We're going around in circles, but we agree very much about the negative effect he had on the people around him. Where we disagree is that - and correct me if I'm wrong - you believe that speaking out against him is the best way to inform and change people's minds, and I believe that way will not change the minds of the people who truly need to have their minds changed.

JW, please understand that I am on your side - we both want this world to come to a complete acceptance of your rights. I encourage you to change minds your way. I will do it my way. Our cause is the same.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me - but I've never said anything of the kind.

And they probably loved him. Which does not mean he was--what we would call--a positive influence in their lives any more than relatives who do other types of damage to their kids, while still professing love, are positive influences.

I remember watching some daytime TV show (Phil Donahue?) some years back that had Klan members on. There was at least one family with several generations on the show, and there was a Klan granny holding a baby who was dressed in baby sized Klan robes and hood.

I remember a 60 Minutes show on American Nazism from about twenty years ago. They showed tape of a brownshirted father proudly bringing his brownshirted twelve year old to his first local meeting. They then interviewed the kid, who said something like "When I grow up, I want to kill all the ni**ers and the Jews because they cause all the trouble."

But, Bear. The man's dead, and he's still making you miserable. Let it go.

First of all, I never once addressed you or anyone in this thread. I was speaking in general terms. And I hate to be a semantic ass here but:

I believe that there are quite a few remarks that I have read both in this thread and elsewhere that fall under this definition. I think the real question is whether hate can be justified. I think it most certainly can, but in my own life, I try to avoid it.

And so, you can continue to say that you don't hate the man, and perhaps you don't, but I think there are many who would admit that their emotions are pretty much in line with at least one of the definitions above.

Hatred is a human emotion. It's going to manifest itself in everyone, like love, or fear, or whatever. Glee? Heartburn?

I hate lots of things: Mint flavored ice cream. People who wear too much cologne. Mornings. Tea. Camping. Charlie Sheen. Many, many things. But I'm ok with it.

The metaphor that we have been playing volleyball with is a pure hypothetical construct. Nobody here HATES Jesse Helms because (I'm guessing) nobody here knew him personally, or ever met him.

That being said, pretty much everyone here HATES what he stood for, and what he used as his political ammunition for decades. He used you. He used me. He used all of us, and we paid him to do it.

Since he was a public figure, he's up for grabs like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and Carrot Top. Lots of people have no problem hating Britney, or Carrot Top, or the Verizon "Can You Hear You Now" guy. Show of hands: who among us doesn't hate the Verizon guy?

And how many of us hate George Bush on a daily basis?
Thought so.

But to hate the late Jesse Helms suddenly inspires an almost Christ-like reflexive response to give thought and pause and be the better person, which is admirable. Heck, the bible even says that. And Helms waved that bible as his own personal weapon and shield. You can try all you want to listen to him and his believers respectfully and then eloquently make your point...

But he sure as hell didn't listen to you when he was alive. Now he really ain't gonna listen.

A George Bushian oversimplification would be: People who hate are bad. Haters are bad. Hating haters is bad becase then we are as bad as the haters because we hate them.

I disagree.

HATE with all your heart the kind of BLIND HATRED that Helms spewed. Let it make you mad. See red. Fight it with words, with deeds, with songs, and political cartoons. Mock it. Lampoon it. Make it preposterous - as laughable as driving a Lincoln Navigator with a baby sealskin interior. Make that kind of HATRED go out of fashion.

Pretending that we somehow should not hate or don't have the capacity to hate is just wrong. We are human. We are programmed with a menu of emotions including the capacity to both love and hate.

Emotions have dangerous flipsides: anxiety, meet depression. Love, meet hate.

So, likely nobody here hates Jesse Helms, the man.

But 99% of the people here HATE what he believed, and the ongoing damage that his beliefs caused, and continue to cause.

Everyone here should HATE what he stood for. He's unimportant in the cosmic scheme - he was just a two-bit flesh and blood vessel filled with bad ideas which he spewed forth while we, the taxpayers, paid him to do so.

And you know what else? Either he really hated you and me and all of us...or he could really care less, and was just pandering his poison to his hard line constituents.

Either way, he was a very bad apple.

I'm personally glad he's gone.

As a public figure and role model, he belongs to us - to love, to hate, to respect...

And yes, if we wish, to draw a caricature of him, gutted and filled with candy-flavored condoms and made into a giant Safe Sex Mussolini-like pinata.

He's just a stupid dead guy.

But never forget what that stupid dead guy stood for.

And HATE it.

Amen.