I'm not sure that in the end Isreal will remain Israel, and if the citizens of that country do not leave they could be destroyed. It's something we have not seen in our lifetime but it is something that could happen. Israel is far outnumbered in its immediate area with people who want to see it destroyed then who want to see them suceed.

Though the prospect of the citizens of Israel fleeing their country is a sad one, it is also scary. For if the people who want to see Israel destroyed also want to see the US destroyed. And if Israel abandons their land, those people will see it as a victory and may take that momentum to again launch their attack on the US.

I don't think there is a good solution to this. :(

The people who were there when Israel returned perhaps feel that way too.

Israel is a country created out of guilt and by screwing with people the West cared about even less than Jews.

It was a mistake, but one not reasily rectified at this point. It is brutal to say but perhaps it is best to just let them all shoot at each other until they come to their own conclusion rather than forcing them to sit at tables doing nothing for decades while rage simmers in the young.

I suppose it all depends on what you feel is worth fighting for.

I can't necessarily quantify what I would fight for or die for, more thigns certainly falling in the fight for category.

I suppose that during our own Revolutionary War the same thing came into question. Was it worth fighting and dieing for? Was the loss of life worth freedom from the oppressive nature of England?

Throughout history cultures have clashed or been forced to defend themselves from aggressors. Cultures have been obliterated or assimilated, but I can't recall any just packing up and leaving.

I think Israel would live at peace with their neighbors if given the chance. They have been (see the previous reference to the Clinton brokered land for peace deal), but their neighbors have refused.

Some say violence begets violence. That's true to an extent. But a lack of response to violence leads to more violence as the aggressors gain confidence that they will be unopposed and their actions will cost them nothing.

Not many have just up and left, but then there haven't been many countries created by international accord and completely disregarding the wishes of the poeple already living there.

Actually, there are a fair number of such things but in pretty much every case they are nearly universally abhorred.

I'm guessing if the United Nations came round and said "We're giving Seattle back to the Shoshone, everybody just cope with it" 50 years on there'd likely be an active resistance to this. The Shoshone would be saying "we would live in peace if everybody would just go along with our view of things," scaeagles and Nyphythys would would support the resistance and iSm would say "just move out" to the Seattlites (but only because the Shoshone promise to restore Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion to the glory they once were).

I had a point in there but I seem to have lost it. Oh yeah, looking to historical precent for how to behave here isn't really instructive since there is not really any historic presedent for the issue.

Israel exists, though it really shouldn't. Now that it does, it has the right to protect itself. It has plenty of just cause for the paranoia that has gripped it since pretty much its rebirth. The Arabs also have valid cause for being pretty angry about the existence of Israel. Yet again, I can understand motivations without agreeing with behaviors.

What we should just do is go to Israel and say "we're very sorry, we acted in a moment of guilt when we gave you this land and it was wrong of us. Could we offer you Arizona instead? It has pretty much everything your current territory has (except beaches and olive trees) and the Navajo aren't nearly so heavily armed."

I suppose I should understand someone who is an athiest ignoring the Biblical history of Israel- it was not created out of guilt. We did not give them anything-

Well, where is God then?


Where was God during the Crusades? Where is God during the Intefadeh? God has long, long, long ago abandoned Jerusalem ... it's high time the jews followed suit.


Feh on being the Chosen People. Chosen for such horrors and demons. It's one thing to suffer violence and death, quite another to suffer becoming the very nazis you claimed to repudiate and loathe.


Get out.

While I think the history of Israel is not in dispute, I understand this is a world in which the controlling party of a piece of real estate is based on who wants it at the time, who is the strongest, and who wants to try to take it. The Israelites, upon release from Egypt, walked around a while and then set about conquering. Others conquered them. Settlers of the North American continent displaced indiginous peoples. Examples ad infinitum.

It is for that reason I can't look at who used to have a parcel of land or a claim to something. That gets WAY out of control as a standard. The only thing one can do is look at they way it is now and the current owners of the property can do their best to defend it.

With Kuwait, the invasion by Saddam was repelled. Danger exists when land is simply given up in the interest of appeasement. I think in the context we are in Godwin's law doesn't really apply, so I'll bring up the Sudentenland. After all, that was all Hitler wanted.

Did you really just compare Israel to Nazi Germany? I'm really not referring to the distastefulness of it, but more to the actual geopolitical situation. Israel isn't looking to exterminate or displace, just survive.

Hopefully the G8 can bring some pressure to calm things down for a bit. Otherwise this will grow like a wildfire.

Already Israel is making noise that Iran is behind the latest Hezbollah actions (ie kidnapping the soldiers). Iran is being pressured on nuclear research and they are pushing back by having Hezbollah turn up the heat with actions like kidnapping soldiers. If the leaders of Israel believes this, and reports I've seen here in DC indicate they do, how long will it be before Israel strikes out at Iran?

I personally have no doubt Iran is behind the escalation of actions by Hezbollah. Irans leader Aminadabooboo (or whatever) has said hey have no righ to exist. What better way to escalate it? Hezbollah does get lots of their funding frmo Iran.

I could see Israel doing something similar to their 1981 (was that the year?) bombing of and Iraqi nuke facility.

I think the biggest risk comes from Iran taking action against Israel. They have already said that if Israel does anyhing to Syria hat there will be grave consequences.