I think we agree on the merits of them trying, just not on how excited and hopeful we should be about the current events.

I'm just trying to separate support for the popular unrest from endorsement of Mousavi. While he's probably incrementally better than Ahmadinejad rhetorically. On the subject of the three issues most important from a foreign relations perspective (acquiring nuclear weapons, recognizing Israel, fiddling with things in Iraq) things would remain mostly the same. Yes, it is great that he doesn't deny the Holocaust, it is more important (in my opinion) that he denies Israel.

But putting the fear of the people into the government would definitely be a good thing.

Yes, we could use a little of that right here.

As long as it is also be kept in mind that "the people" are frequently very stupid about what they want.

Just not quite as stupid as the usual powers-that-be (imo).

We've discussed this in the past, but I don't think "real" revolution is possible any more. Back in the 1770's the rural farmers were almost as well armed as the British. What are the people of Iran or China supposed to do with governments that don't value the lives of their citizens more than they value their own power?

By the same token, the periodic revolutions that Jefferson recommended for this country are no longer possible either.

Indeed.

I wonder about that - and China I guess is the model. How much control can a totalitarian regime really claim? Revolution seems as much ideology as weaponry. I think of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the vast efforts that went into East Germany's security state. To some extent authority must be believed in to be claimed.

Wow, I found this very moving, as her voice breaks throughout.

Even as I believe that many of the supposed freedom fighters may still hate Jews or America, or at the very least have misconceptions about me and my affiliations, I still wish them their freedom. Perhaps if the light of day is let into their lives they will be able to grow past hatred.

And as for those who truly support equality and peace among all people...I could break down and cry for them, there and in China, North Korea, and elsewhere.