I think such a high percentage of the upper middle class have done such a poor job of managing their lives as lower income earners that their income to debt ratio makes their income in effect much smaller. Are they still "rich" because they are in a percentage level? I don't know.

I know DINKs that have lower income than my wife and I do but have far more disposable income because they have no children. I would qualify them as rich long before I would qualify us. We have some good friend who are DINKs who just spent a week in Belize and put a down payment on some property there because they love it. We make more but could never even think of doing that.

I don't think you can define rich by level of income.....I think it has more to do with assets vs. liabilities.

On an individual level sure. But on the matter of trends and tendencies, it's not hard to look at numbers like "average debt:income ratio for household income of $250,000" and make some generalizations about the average $250K earner. It'll never apply to everyone in the category, but it can still be an interesting comparison point.

You'd rarely find a rich person who thinks paying all cash for a house is a good idea.

Most wealthy folks would rather leverage that money, putting down just what they need to to make the payment pencil out. Then use the rest of the money (that this paid-off house would theoretically cost) to put down payments on rental properties, putting down just as much as they need to to make the property cash flow after accounting for maintenance and vacancy allowances.

Part of the reason for this is that in an upward-trending market, if you've put less down on a property, the amount of money by which your property increases in value represents a higher percentage in relation to what you've invested in it.

And now that I've bored you all to death, I'm going to go back to my sewing.

True. But on the other hand if you are making $250,000 a year and have yourself so in debt that you're barely getting by you may no longer be effectively rich but I also don't want to hear the whining about how it really isn't that much money and "woe is I" and all that crap.

Do people also finance homes to claim them on their taxes? In addition to giving them that more fluid cash you speak of.

{Oh, did I use those terms correctly??}

Monetarily, we are middle class, I suppose- for Spokane. We'd be lower middle class in OC. However, I feel 'rich' in what I have in my life- my family, my friends, the fact that I was born in what I consider to be probably the best country ever (yes, it's flawed, but until we get rid of that pesky human component it always will be) and in one of the most progressive eras known to humankind. (Again, not perfect, but it's slowly moving along.......) I love history, and in my studies I have learned to appreciate my time and place on this Earth. So, yeah- not so rich monetarily, but I lead a very rich life.

I lead a pretty rich life, but it's all based on debt.


If I die owing tens of thousands, I'll be ahead of the game, right? :D

Of course. I don't have sympathy, but I don't really regard such a person as rich.

However, I think Trump has said something like he has huge influence with banks because of how much he owes them. I think if you take the amount of debt to huge extremes the pendulum swings back toward rich....or at least living like it.

Tell that to your daughter!

Unless she's cosigning for the debt, why would she care?

He'll just need to gift her all of his stuff over the last years of his life so that it can't be claimed as part of his estate to pay off debt.